Germany's Catholic Church Just Took An Amazing Step For LGBT And Remarried Catholics

[Rhamiel]

the spirit of anti-Christ has taken the hearts of many
rejecting the ways of God and creating their own morality
Romans 1:22-27
22 For professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

23 And they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of the image of a corruptible man, and of birds, and of fourfooted beasts, and of creeping things.

24 Wherefore God gave them up to the desires of their heart, unto uncleanness, to dishonour their own bodies among themselves.

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God delivered them up to shameful affections. For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature.

27 And, in like manner, the men also, leaving the natural use of the women, have burned in their lusts one towards another, men with men working that which is filthy, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error.

 

[ebia]

But what does the Vatican have to say about this? Since when the church in Germany takes these kind of decisions by itself?

It's not "by itself". You'll find the consideration already varies around the world.

 

[pdudgeon]

Actually those are the two main absolute evils that people engage in on a regular basis like it isn't a big deal. That persons such as yourself try to throw back like those that take issue with engaging in a sin of that nature says something about the person taking issue with it.

I take issue with people dropping off their children at Catholic schools with expensive cars. But that isn't an objective evil.

We aren't even talking about "particular" instances of sin. We are talking about people who make a daily decision to associate with the Church while at the same time engaging in something they know the Church is against.

we're a work in progress, and it takes time and formation to develop a sensitivity to what God says is right versus what the world is screaming at us. No we don't always get things right. But with time and good instruction and a willing heart we can improve.

the problem comes because some people don't think they have to improve. Instead they want the church to change NOW to accommodate their likes so they can keep on doing what they are doing, and living like they are living, and still get to go to heaven.

 

[Rhamiel]

So we should only worry about sins where there are no grey areas?

when it comes to the state of the soul, no
when it comes to employment by an institution that is affiliated with the Catholic Church, yes

just as we should not have teachers who are Neo-Nazis
their values do not reflect our values

you yourself pointed out the horrors that were done when homosexuals were allowed in Catholic Schools, why do you want the children to be placed in harms way?

 

[ebia]

Ebia, you are not saying anything here.

It says plenty if you have ears to hear.

 

[ebia]

we're a work in progress, and it takes time and formation to develop a sensitivity to what God says is right versus what the world is screaming at us. No we don't always get things right. But with time and good instruction and a willing heart we can improve.

the problem comes because some people don't think they have to improve. Instead they want the church to change NOW to accommodate their likes so the can keep on doing what they are doing and living like they are living and still get to go to heaven.

No.

The issue isn't that anyone doesn't need to improve. We all do.

The issue is the focus on one particular area for improvement, largely one that affect other people and is particular problematic for the people to improve in, while ignoring the main areas focused on by Jesus and Francis.

 

[Forever trying]

For the OP, there's a difference between as what Pope Francis said "who am I to judge", and then just compromising the churches values in a way that fuels anti-Catholic Protestants in their sale to converts that the Catholic Church isn't Christian. We have traditionally been at the forefront of every Christian cause that effects society. From marriage, to abortion, etc... Welcoming homosexuals into the church as congregants is one thing. No one should be barred from the church. But the German proposal, I believe, risks opening the floodgates to accepting homosexual marriage, to the church then having to conduct it by law. These things always start with, what may seem at the time, "little compromises". That is why there is already what you could call an unofficial schism in the Anglican Church. This idea that "traditional" ideas are bad, while "modernist" ideas are good, are a big problem why society in increasingly the way it is.

 

[ebia]

when it comes to the state of the soul, no
when it comes to employment by an institution that is affiliated with the Catholic Church, yes

just as we should not have teachers who are Neo-Nazis
their values do not reflect our values

Neither do the values of a greedy, self-centred, person.

We want teachers of the best possible quality of character and teaching ability. You don't get that by declaring a couple of issues absolute while ignoring others.

 

[stray bullet]

That's playing with words. Sex is the action, in the first instance. It's when circumstances are added you get adultery or whatever. Likewise for the others.

No, the act is sex with a person of the same sex. Or sex with a person other than your spouse.

I don't know why you continue on this point - that you refuse to concede or you are really stuck in your mindset and unable to see the difference.

I know when I am having sex whether it is licit and moral. Other Catholics know it as well.

So we should only worry about sins where there are no grey areas?

That's a strawman. These are objectively evil sins people are professing publicly while wishing to work for the Church.

 

[ebia]

For the OP, there's a difference between as what Pope Francis said "who am I to judge", and then just compromising the churches values in a way that fuels anti-Catholic Protestants in their sale to converts that the Catholic Church isn't Christian. We have traditionally been at the forefront of every Christian cause that effects society. From marriage, to abortion, etc... Welcoming homosexuals into the church as congregants is one thing. No one should be barred from the church. But the German proposal, I believe, risks opening the floodgates to accepting homosexual marriage, to the church then having to conduct it by law.

No it doesn't. Germany isn't proposing anything that isn't already the case in other places like Australia.

 

[stray bullet]

It says plenty if you have ears to hear.

Are you okay, ebia?

You are reminding me of the people in GT that respond by saying, "read the bible" or "pray about it and you will see I am right."

 

[pdudgeon]

.......
Greed, over consumption, and consumerism like many things are not as easily defined and are based on opinion about particular instances and circumstance.

greed; wanting more than your fair share.
over consumption; bloat and waste.
consumerism; the lure of what delights the eyes and sucks the wallet dry.

 

[stray bullet]

greed; wanting more than your fair share.
over consumption; bloat and waste.
consumerism; the lure of what delights the eyes and sucks the wallet dry.

And all of those are not easily defined by particular instances.

We have to say, out of opinion, that is greed.
When you have sex with a person, it is pretty easy to determine whether or not it is homosexual (wrong) or adulterous (wrong).

 

[ebia]

No, the act is sex with a person of the same sex.

Playing with words. Gluttony is the act of excessive consumption.

That's a strawman. These are objectively evil sins people are professing publicly while wishing to work for the Church.

So as long as someone pretends to pay lip-service to x being imoral, their actual behavior doesn't matter?

 

[ebia]

And all of those are not easily defined by particular instances.

We have to say, out of opinion, that is greed.
When you have sex with a person, it is pretty easy to determine whether or not it is homosexual (wrong) or adulterous (wrong).

Which makes the more subtle stuff all the more important, not less.

 

[ebia]

Are you okay, ebia?

You are reminding me of the people in GT that respond by saying, "read the bible" or "pray about it and you will see I am right."

I'm sure the focus of the Gospels and Evangelli Gaudium hasn't escaped you, or won't if you read them.

 

[stray bullet]

Playing with words. Gluttony is the act of excessive consumption.

That's not playing with words.

I have no idea why you continue to go on like this.
When you have sex with a person everyone knows if it is homosexual or adulterous.

Whether something is gluttony or 'excessive' is based on opinion. Having sex with someone other than your spouse or with another person is not opinion.

So as long as someone pretends to pay lip-service to x being imoral, their actual behavior doesn't matter?

If a person makes a mistake, that is different from continuing the mistake...
Which is different from continuing and being public about it.

 

[stray bullet]

I'm sure the focus of the Gospels and Evangelli Gaudium hasn't escaped you, or won't if you read them.

GT: "I'll pray for you."

If you are going to say something, say something. Right now you are engaging in full on GT tactics.

 

[ebia]

That's not playing with words.

I have no idea why you continue to go on like this.
When you have sex with a person everyone knows if it is homosexual or adulterous.

Whether something is gluttony or 'excessive' is based on opinion. Having sex with someone other than your spouse or with another person is not opinion.

That's a different aspect to how you started the train of thought.

Yes, gluttony, self-focus and consumerism are more incideous - that makes them more important, not less important, to address.

If a person makes a mistake, that is different from continuing the mistake...
Which is different from continuing and being public about it.

Nobody's talking about one-off mistakes

 

[stray bullet]

Which makes the more subtle stuff all the more important, not less.

No one is saying it is more or less important.

What we are saying is that
"Hey, I do stuff that is ABSOLUTELY ALWAYS AND EVERYWHERE EVIL and I DO IT OPENLY and WITHOUT REMORSE in DEFIANCE of the Church" is not an appropriate thing to do while employed by the Church.