Germany's Catholic Church Just Took An Amazing Step For LGBT And Remarried Catholics

[ebia]

Hmm. Funny how you can know that when I didn't post my position,

Since I'm inferring from the dilemma, not from the position, I don't need to know the position. If you find yourself in the dilemma you describe, that raises the question I pose.

 

[SolomonVII]

Christians are "damned if we do, and damned if we don't" in conversations like this that revolve around highly emotionally-driven political topics. We are told that you cannot condemn homosexual marriage if you do not also condemn heterosexual divorce, for instance. To do otherwise would be "hypocritical" (which is maybe the only real sin there is anymore). But then you look at a country like Chile -- they're overwhelmingly Catholic and didn't legalize divorce until 2004 (!), after a long and hard-fought campaign by the Church to block the law, and campaigners on the other side framing things in terms of "human rights". Hmm...sound familiar? And to be sure, there were many loopholes by which marriages were ended or just ignored under the old, no-divorce-allowing system (usually involving the tactic that should be familiar to Catholics -- the 'annulment by technicality' play), but at least we had a primarily Catholic population in a state that upheld the RC stance on this issue. But that's just it: Stand up against divorce and disallow it and you're taking away other peoples' "human rights" and/or forcing them to be hypocrites via other avenues to get what they want. Don't stand up against it and it's a never-ending chorus of "Geez...dang Christians can't stop obsessing over gayness to focus on their own failing marriages! What hypocrites!" Apparently you lose your right to be against anything if you're not against everything in equal measure all the time -- even if these other things are unrelated to the topic at hand, and even if the people you're talking to would hate that even more than your current "hypocritical" stance (because it would end up with more "human rights" being curtailed as you force more and more of your views on everyone else...you know, like they told you to, so as to avoid being a hypocrite).

You can't win because literally any move you make that isn't complete and uncritical acceptance of anything another human being does or defines themselves by* will be spun to make you a horrible, gay-bashing, inhuman monster/hypocrite. Stop playing.

(* "acceptance" which will not be returned in kind regarding how you choose to live or define yourself, mind you; you give that up always and forever unless you reform your view on whatever the issue is to match that of your interlocutor on the "pro" side of whatever you're against.)

There has been a steady erosion of bedrock Christian values with the relentless encroachment of leftist values throughout the Western world. This is not an argument that conservatives or traditionalists can win either, for indeed the leftist control the media to the extent that the only sin remaining for the media is the sin of conservatism, to be a Tea party kind of person, as it has been so succinctly put by the leftists in this very thread.

It is not a question of winning or losing any more, I don't think, but a question of how to handle the fallout that inevitably arises as the left ruins everything across the former lands of Christendom. People divorce all the time now because that is a victory that the left won generations ago.
So the question becomes, does the Church ostracize divorced and remarried people from all jobs that they have the skills to do in the Church, or do we find ways to be inclusive?
Likewise, is our solution going to be to gather into tight exclusive circles when gay members of our families and churches open up, or do we open ourselves up to their company too?
For Catholics, and for Orthodox folk too, the teaching and the values are the same as they ever were. Our churches and our families are our own ground. If gays and remarried do not want to include us on our own terms, I guess that is up to them.
But for those of us who are firm in our faith and firm in our own values, an open door policy is what Christianity has always been about. It has never been about winning or losing. It is about sharing. Of course for those who see being a conservative as being the sin, they have already closed the doors on us anyway. But for any who want to commune with us, accepting us as traditional and conservative Christians on our own terms, the door is always open, as far as I am concerned anyway.

It is not about winning or losing for Christians. It is about being there.

 

[stray bullet]

When I address one, the other chips in and says "it's not about that, it's about.." address that and the other chips in with the reverse.

I am referring to the concerns of the Church. Whatever someone else thinks it might be is both wrong and irrelevant to me.

 

[stray bullet]

We seem to be saying that marriage should only be about reproduction, and that, therefore, the state should not allow any marriage whose primary purpose is not reproduction.

Further we seem to be saying that sexual activity that is not focused on reproduction is unnatural.

That is not what the Church is saying.

Homosexuals cannot get married.
People cannot get remarried unless their spouse is dead or with some very exceptional circumstances.

 

[pdudgeon]

There has been a steady erosion of bedrock Christian values with the relentless encroachment of leftist values throughout the Western world. This is not an argument that conservatives or traditionalists can win either, for indeed the leftist control the media to the extent that the only sin remaining for the media is the sin of conservatism, to be a Tea party kind of person, as it has been so succinctly put by the leftists in this very thread.

It is not a question of winning or losing any more, I don't think, but a question of how to handle the fallout that inevitably arises as the left ruins everything across the former lands of Christendom. People divorce all the time now because that is a victory that the left won generations ago.
So the question becomes, does the Church ostracize divorced and remarried people from all jobs that they have the skills to do in the Church, or do we find ways to be inclusive?
Likewise, is our solution going to be to gather into tight exclusive circles when gay members of our families and churches open up, or do we open ourselves up to their company too?
For Catholics, and for Orthodox folk too, the teaching and the values are the same as they ever were. Our churches and our families are our own ground. If gays and remarried do not want to include us on our own terms, I guess that is up to them.
But for those of us who are firm in our faith and firm in our own values, an open door policy is what Christianity has always been about. It has never been about winning or losing. It is about sharing. Of course for those who see being a conservative as being the sin, they have already closed the doors on us anyway. But for any who want to commune with us, accepting us as traditional and conservative Christians on our own terms, the door is always open, as far as I am concerned anyway.

It is not about winning or losing for Christians. It is about being there.

an interesting question indeed.
keeping the balance between having an open door on the one hand, and being overrun by those who hate what the church (still) stands for on the other hand, is a difficult problem to solve.

 

[stray bullet]

I fail to see why these types of silly arguments always come about, where pro-LGBT folks come in here and try to somehow name a list of sins that "outdo" sodomy in order to justify it and make it seem half normal while making the person who is plunging body parts into another man's hind end somehow on a par with a person not giving enough to charity. Ugh....

It's really not about the gravity of the sin - it's about the fact it is absolutely wrong without question and it's being made public.

 

[ebia]

I am referring to the concerns of the Church. Whatever someone else thinks it might be is both wrong and irrelevant to me.

What you say the church says is opposite to what they say the church says.

Unless someone has appointed you to speak on behalf of the church...

 

[stray bullet]

What you say the church says is opposite to what they say the church says.

Unless someone has appointed you to speak on behalf of the church...

Well I am certainly more knowledgeable on the issue than you or him.

 

[ebia]

Well I am certainly more knowledgeable on the issue than you or him.

So you say.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Where is Stray Bullet wrong? The catechism teaches homosexuality to be disordered and that gay sex is intrinsically wrong/against the natural order. The Church teaches it is sin. What do you claim they teach about it? To have same-sex temptations is one thing, to act on them another.

What you say the church says is opposite to what they say the church says.

Unless someone has appointed you to speak on behalf of the church...

 

[SolomonVII]

Where is Stray Bullet wrong? The catechism teaches homosexuality to be disordered and that gay sex is intrinsically wrong/against the natural order. The Church teaches it is sin. What do you claim they teach about it? To have same-sex temptations is one thing, to act on them another.

I am not sure of where he was contradicting church teaching either.
From what I recall, he would be one that would know exactly what the teaching was on the matter of homosexuality.

 

[ebia]

Your need to re read the multiple conversations going on if you really want to understand what the disagreement is. It's not about "is homosexuality a sin".

 

[WarriorAngel]

It would be a mistake to allow gays to work in the institutions if they chose to marry or live with a partner and it causes scandals... etc
Just saying...
If you leave the door open - too much can blow in or out.

 

[IHOM]

The church is under massive pressure from the new world order to conform to it... i am afraid this type of thing is going to get worse... the great ship is up against the rocks and getting bashed from all sides... there will be loses i am afraid... but we must keep the faith

 

[topcare]

That is why it's good to pray this:

Holy Michael, the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our safeguard against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray; and do you, O Prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God cast into hell Satan and all the evil spirits who wander through the world seeking the ruin of souls.

We say this prayer after every Mass in my Church

 

[RileyG]

It would be a mistake to allow gays to work in the institutions if they chose to marry or live with a partner and it causes scandals... etc
Just saying...
If you leave the door open - too much can blow in or out.

I do agree with you.

All people-regardless of their sexual orientation- are loved by God and deserve respect, dignity and compassion. period. HOWEVER, saying "You can still work here, it's ok if you are married to your same-sex partner, or cohabiting" etc is false compassion, not love".

Just my two cents.

 

[Fantine]

I have known lots of gay music ministers, including a real prodigy who was an organist and choir director in high school. The church lost someone who could have been an organist in the great cathedrals and who participates in international competitions. Our loss is a Protestant church's gain.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

So the Church should change its teaching so you can have better (allegedly) music?

 

[Fantine]

His sexual orientation did not interfere with his ability to direct and play inspiring liturgical music that led people to God. He was not run off by the Church. It was his decision to take his genius elsewhere.