I am totally disenheartened by the level of discourse around here. I desire intelligent, respectful interchange with other believers. I believe in the iron sharpens iron concept, and I desire to grow and learn even if it means I need to change my opinion about something in particular.
From dictionary.com (emphasis added):
Lie:
- A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
- Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.
Im human, and Im more than a little stubborn, so I may well be wrong. Call me wrong, call me misguided, challenge my sources, logic, and conclusions but
do NOT call me a liar. My integrity is extremely important to me.
Anyway Graham4c, sorry about taking this thread in another direction. I just had a hard time letting what I saw as a mischaracterization of the typical YEC position stand.
I went to Glenn Mortons site. Interesting Scriptural interpretations, to say the least. I had a hard time reading past some of the attacks on YECs and the way they think. Theres probably some good stuff for discussion and learning in there I just wish hed can it in terms of evolutionary elitism. I may try it again later.
What I like best is the interchange of peer review, with folks challenging each other and pointing out limitations and objections. I applaud it when I see it in the context of YEC research. Elitism turns me off quicker than just about anything.
On to some of the topics raised:
1)Pollen. It is not as easy to detect pollen reliably as one might think. One of the most crucial things is to prevent contamination. Pollen is everywhere, and it is notoriously easy to contaminate the samples. For example, modern pollen has been found (supposedly) in
precambrian rocks from the Grand Canyon, in India, in Russia, and elsewhere. However, in each case it is crucial to eliminate any possibility of contamination. In the case of the Grand Canyon shale, there have been several attempts to validate the discovery. Something like 3 out of 4 attempts have found modern pollen. The researchers have used extreme care to try to avoid contamination, including taking the samples below the surface and washing the samples extremely thoroughly before crushing and analysis. However, some have pointed out the possibility of micro-cracks in the shale not visible to the naked eye which may have let in groundwater which in turn carried in pollen. This seems extreme, but I am willing to accept that the jury is still out. However, I would be VERY cautious about dogmatically saying pollen has never been found out of sequence.
2)Sorting of the geologic column. The column is hardly as sorted as one might hope. Layers which are out of assumed chronological order occur in a large number of places throughout the globe, and in each case the mechanism must be explained in terms of post deposition movement of the strata itself. It is not appropriate to dismiss anomalies as unimportant they challenge the interpretational framework itself. The fish fossils in the Green River varves directly challenge the yearly varve interpretation. I would also be careful about putting too much stock into a particular fossil never appearing again. There are numerous examples of things that were thought to be extinct for millions of years that have been found alive, such as the coelacanth fish, etc. One must also explain polystrate fossils, such as trees spanning long distances within coal beds, and fossil graveyards, etc. that show multiple fossils which appear to be thrown together violently.
3)Hydrodynamic sorting and deposition can explain the fossil record quite well. It is *crucial* to remember that a world wide flood is not a calm uniform event. Eventually, all of the mountains were covered, but during the initial stages there would be a multitude of local floods getting worse and worse over time. It is to be expected that there would be layers of silt deposition upon layers as the waters built up over time, washing over and receding, time and time again, until they were finally covered everywhere. It is also important to remember that there are a huge variety of factors which affect sedimentation rates. The concentration of dissolved solids, temperature, speed of flow, etc., all affect how layers are laid down and can be affected easily. One would expect lots and lots of layer variation in a huge flood.
4)Straight tracks. The normal animal track is meandering, as animals feed, etc. There is also typically a significant percentage of young within the herds. Many of the dinosaur tracks are straight, without the young, as if made in haste trying to get away from something. This could easily be explained by the sequence of floods, where they ran over the wet ground leaving their footprints even as the local floods came along to deposit more silt, etc. Over time, no more escape was possible.
5)Again, while there is much more research to be done, the dynamics of a global flood are hugely varied. Some areas would be calm, others raging, others covered and uncovered repeatedly. Please do not assume a calm progression of waters everywhere. There would be areas where water trapped early, only to be let out whether before or after the flood. Many YECs believe the Grand Canyon, for example, was formed quickly after the flood as an inland sea found a path to the ocean. However, modeling and understanding all of the dynamics of such a flood is in its infancy there is a LOT more research to be done.
The mechanics for the formation of the fossil record is one of the key discussions for this group. To a YEC, the geologic column stands in amazing tribute to a global catastrophic flood. To a TE, I would guess theyd say it stands in tribute to millions of years of repeated localized events.