Genesis 1:26 and the Divine Council

[Job 33:6]

For centuries people have pondered the question: who is "us" and "our" in Genesis 1:26;

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:26‭-‬27‬
[26] Then God said, “Let us make humans in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over the cattle and over all the wild animals of the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.” [27] So God created humans in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

Many have argued that it is the Trinity. But here, I will explain that it is actually God speaking to His heavenly host.

Supporting scripture for review:

‭‭Psalms‬ ‭82:1‬ ‭
[1] God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
[6] I say, “You are gods, children of the Most High, all of you; [7] nevertheless, you shall die like mortals and fall like any prince.”

‭‭Psalms‬ ‭89:5‭-‬7‬ ‭
[5] Let the heavens praise your wonders, O Lord, your faithfulness in the assembly of the holy ones. [6] For who in the skies can be compared to the Lord? Who among the heavenly beings is like the Lord, [7] a God feared in the council of the holy ones, great and awesome above all who are around him?

‭‭1 King‬ ‭22:19‭-‬23‬ ‭
[19] Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, with all the host of heaven standing beside him to the right and to the left of him. [20] And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, so that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ Then one said one thing, and another said another, [21] until a certain spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ [22] ‘How?’ the Lord asked him. He replied, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then the Lord said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do it.’ [23] So you see, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has decreed disaster for you.”

‭‭Job‬ ‭1:6‬ ‭
[6] One day the heavenly beings came to present themselves before the Lord, and satan also came among them.

‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭6:1‭-‬3‬ ‭
[1] In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lofty, and the hem of his robe filled the temple. [2] Seraphs were in attendance above him; each had six wings: with two they covered their faces, and with two they covered their feet, and with two they flew. [3] And one called to another and said, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory.”

The old testament is filled with angelic beings that are present in God's throne room. And these angelic beings serve as a divine council. A heavenly family that partakes in worldly matters at the command of God.

The Bible even tells us that they were present at God's laying of the foundations of the earth:

‭‭Job‬ ‭38:4‬ ‭
[4] “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.
[7] when the morning stars sang together and all the heavenly beings shouted for joy?

They were present when mankind was created.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭11:4‭-‬7‬ ‭
[4] Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves; otherwise we shall be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.” [5] The Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which mortals had built. [6] And the Lord said, “Look, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do; nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them. [7] Come, let us go down and confuse their language there, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.”

Here in Genesis, God says "look, they are one people, let us go down and confuse their language".

God is not informing the holy Spirit to "look" to see things that perhaps the holy spirit does not yet see. Nor is God instructing or informing the pre-embodied Jesus to pay attention and to look either.

God, when He says "let us go down", He's speaking to His heavenly host.

In Genesis, when God speaks in the plural, He's speaking to His heavenly host.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:26‭-‬27‬ ‭
[26] Then God said, “Let us make humans in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over the cattle and over all the wild animals of the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.” [27] So God created humans in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:22‬ ‭
[22] Then the Lord God said, “See, the humans have become like one of us, knowing good and evil, and now they might reach out their hands and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever”—

It's not God talking to himself, informing or instructing himself to look and to do things. As if the other members of the Trinity weren't paying attention and God needed to tell himself to look at something.

It's just God speaking to His heavenly host.

Here is an expanded lecture on the topic by Dr. Michael Heiser.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

For centuries people have pondered the question: who is "us" and "our" in Genesis 1:26;

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:26‭-‬27‬
[26] Then God said, “Let us make humans in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over the cattle and over all the wild animals of the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.” [27] So God created humans in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

Many have argued that it is the Trinity. But here, I will explain that it is actually God speaking to His heavenly host.

Supporting scripture for review:

‭‭Psalms‬ ‭82:1‬ ‭
[1] God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
[6] I say, “You are gods, children of the Most High, all of you; [7] nevertheless, you shall die like mortals and fall like any prince.”

‭‭Psalms‬ ‭89:5‭-‬7‬ ‭
[5] Let the heavens praise your wonders, O Lord, your faithfulness in the assembly of the holy ones. [6] For who in the skies can be compared to the Lord? Who among the heavenly beings is like the Lord, [7] a God feared in the council of the holy ones, great and awesome above all who are around him?

‭‭1 King‬ ‭22:19‭-‬23‬ ‭
[19] Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, with all the host of heaven standing beside him to the right and to the left of him. [20] And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, so that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ Then one said one thing, and another said another, [21] until a certain spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ [22] ‘How?’ the Lord asked him. He replied, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then the Lord said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do it.’ [23] So you see, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has decreed disaster for you.”

‭‭Job‬ ‭1:6‬ ‭
[6] One day the heavenly beings came to present themselves before the Lord, and satan also came among them.

‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭6:1‭-‬3‬ ‭
[1] In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lofty, and the hem of his robe filled the temple. [2] Seraphs were in attendance above him; each had six wings: with two they covered their faces, and with two they covered their feet, and with two they flew. [3] And one called to another and said, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory.”

The old testament is filled with angelic beings that are present in God's throne room. And these angelic beings serve as a divine council. A heavenly family that partakes in worldly matters at the command of God.

The Bible even tells us that they were present at God's laying of the foundations of the earth:

‭‭Job‬ ‭38:4‬ ‭
[4] “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.
[7] when the morning stars sang together and all the heavenly beings shouted for joy?

They were present when mankind was created.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭11:4‭-‬7‬ ‭
[4] Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves; otherwise we shall be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.” [5] The Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which mortals had built. [6] And the Lord said, “Look, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do; nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them. [7] Come, let us go down and confuse their language there, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.”

Here in Genesis, God says "look, they are one people, let us go down and confuse their language".

God is not informing the holy Spirit to "look" to see things that perhaps the holy spirit does not yet see. Nor is God instructing or informing the pre-embodied Jesus to pay attention and to look either.

God, when He says "let us go down", He's speaking to His heavenly host.

In Genesis, when God speaks in the plural, He's speaking to His heavenly host.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:26‭-‬27‬ ‭
[26] Then God said, “Let us make humans in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over the cattle and over all the wild animals of the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.” [27] So God created humans in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:22‬ ‭
[22] Then the Lord God said, “See, the humans have become like one of us, knowing good and evil, and now they might reach out their hands and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever”—

It's not God talking to himself, informing or instructing himself to look and to do things. As if the other members of the Trinity weren't paying attention and God needed to tell himself to look at something.

It's just God speaking to His heavenly host.

Here is an expanded lecture on the topic by Dr. Michael Heiser.

It is important to consider that Jesus Christ of Nazareth, God in the flesh, existed before anything else existed because He "always existed". Everything was made through Him, in Him and for Him. This is a very important fact before taking the stance that these " heavenly hosts" had a part in the creation process when in fact , they were created like the rest of us. Blessings


Colossians
16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

For centuries people have pondered the question: who is "us" and "our" in Genesis 1:26;

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:26‭-‬27‬
[26] Then God said, “Let us make humans in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over the cattle and over all the wild animals of the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.” [27] So God created humans in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

Many have argued that it is the Trinity. But here, I will explain that it is actually God speaking to His heavenly host.

Supporting scripture for review:

‭‭Psalms‬ ‭82:1‬ ‭
[1] God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
[6] I say, “You are gods, children of the Most High, all of you; [7] nevertheless, you shall die like mortals and fall like any prince.”

‭‭Psalms‬ ‭89:5‭-‬7‬ ‭
[5] Let the heavens praise your wonders, O Lord, your faithfulness in the assembly of the holy ones. [6] For who in the skies can be compared to the Lord? Who among the heavenly beings is like the Lord, [7] a God feared in the council of the holy ones, great and awesome above all who are around him?

‭‭1 King‬ ‭22:19‭-‬23‬ ‭
[19] Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, with all the host of heaven standing beside him to the right and to the left of him. [20] And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, so that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ Then one said one thing, and another said another, [21] until a certain spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ [22] ‘How?’ the Lord asked him. He replied, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then the Lord said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do it.’ [23] So you see, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has decreed disaster for you.”

‭‭Job‬ ‭1:6‬ ‭
[6] One day the heavenly beings came to present themselves before the Lord, and satan also came among them.

‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭6:1‭-‬3‬ ‭
[1] In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lofty, and the hem of his robe filled the temple. [2] Seraphs were in attendance above him; each had six wings: with two they covered their faces, and with two they covered their feet, and with two they flew. [3] And one called to another and said, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory.”

The old testament is filled with angelic beings that are present in God's throne room. And these angelic beings serve as a divine council. A heavenly family that partakes in worldly matters at the command of God.

The Bible even tells us that they were present at God's laying of the foundations of the earth:

‭‭Job‬ ‭38:4‬ ‭
[4] “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.
[7] when the morning stars sang together and all the heavenly beings shouted for joy?

They were present when mankind was created.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭11:4‭-‬7‬ ‭
[4] Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves; otherwise we shall be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.” [5] The Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which mortals had built. [6] And the Lord said, “Look, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do; nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them. [7] Come, let us go down and confuse their language there, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.”

Here in Genesis, God says "look, they are one people, let us go down and confuse their language".

God is not informing the holy Spirit to "look" to see things that perhaps the holy spirit does not yet see. Nor is God instructing or informing the pre-embodied Jesus to pay attention and to look either.

God, when He says "let us go down", He's speaking to His heavenly host.

In Genesis, when God speaks in the plural, He's speaking to His heavenly host.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:26‭-‬27‬ ‭
[26] Then God said, “Let us make humans in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over the cattle and over all the wild animals of the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.” [27] So God created humans in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:22‬ ‭
[22] Then the Lord God said, “See, the humans have become like one of us, knowing good and evil, and now they might reach out their hands and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever”—

It's not God talking to himself, informing or instructing himself to look and to do things. As if the other members of the Trinity weren't paying attention and God needed to tell himself to look at something.

It's just God speaking to His heavenly host.

Here is an expanded lecture on the topic by Dr. Michael Heiser.

I came to this conclusion some years ago. I see "earth man" as having evolved from the "beasts."
Adam (spiritual man) was created directly from the earth.
"Earth man" crossed with "spiritual man," and here we are.

 

[BobRyan]

In Genesis, when God speaks in the plural, He's speaking to His heavenly host.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:26‭-‬27‬ ‭
[26] Then God said, “Let us make humans in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over the cattle and over all the wild animals of the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.” [27] So God created humans in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:22‬ ‭
[22] Then the Lord God said, “See, the humans have become like one of us, knowing good and evil, and now they might reach out their hands and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever”—

It's not God talking to himself, informing or instructing himself to look and to do things. As if the other members of the Trinity weren't paying attention and God needed to tell himself to look at something.

It's just God speaking to His heavenly host.

God did not make humans in the image of all those created beings in heaven - that would be a confusing compilation. Rather mankind was made as a distinct unique species in the image of God Himself.

In John 17 Jesus does not "pray to himself" - He prays to the Father.

One God - in three persons Matt 28:19

 

[St_Worm2]

Hello @Job 33:6, though there is plenty of evidence elsewhere in the Bible for the "Us" and the "Our" of v26 being the Godhead alone, we really do not need to go beyond v27 to figure that out.

Genesis 1​

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” ​

27 God created man ~in His own~ image, ~in the image of God~ He created him; male and female He created them. ​

Some of the examples that you gave us in the OP include the heavenly host, while others do not (Genesis 1:26-27, 3:22, 11:4-7; Psalm 82 .. Psalm 82:1a is the singular exception).

That said, there is no evidence anywhere in the Holy Writ that we were made in the image of the angels (or in some kind of combo image of God AND the angels ), or that the angelic host had anything to do with the Creation in any way whatsoever*, save being present for parts of it being formed, and utterly amazed by all that they saw as they looked on and cheered.

*(The Bible speaks of the divine council of the heavenly host gathering in the Lord's presence at times where they worship Him, serve Him, and receive their marching orders from Him/obey His will. They are never said to give Him ideas/counsel about, well, anything, and they certainly did not actively participate in creating anything)​

As the psalmist tells us in one of the passages that you posited for us in the OP,

Psalm 89​

6 For who in the skies is comparable to the LORD?​

Who among the sons of the mighty is like the LORD,​

7 A God greatly feared in the council of the holy ones,​

And awesome above all those who are around Him?​

God bless you and MERRY CHRISTMAS

--David
p.s. - as a bit of as aside, the Apostle John tells us that it was the 2nd (Pre-Incarnate) Member of the Godhead who was sitting on the throne in Isaiah's vision .. Isaiah 6:1-3; John 12:41.

Finally, there is no mention of the heavenly host actively participating in the following passage, or even of them being there/coming down with the Lord.

Genesis 11​

1 Now the whole earth used the same language and the same words. ​

2 It came about as they journeyed east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. ​

3 They said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and burn them thoroughly.” And they used brick for stone, and they used tar for mortar. ​

4 They said, “Come, let us build for ourselves a city, and a tower whose top will reach into heaven, and let us make for ourselves a name, otherwise we will be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.” ​

5 The LORD/YHWH came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. ​

6 The LORD said, “Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them. ​

7 “Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.” ​

8 So ~the LORD~ scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city. ​

9 Therefore its name was called Babel, because there ~the LORD~ confused the language of the whole earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of the whole earth. ​

 

[Job 33:6]

Hello @Job 33:6, though there is plenty of evidence elsewhere in the Bible for the "Us" and the "Our" of v26 being the Godhead alone, we really do not need to go beyond v27 to figure that out.

Genesis 1​

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” ​

27 God created man ~in His own~ image, ~in the image of God~ He created him; male and female He created them. ​

Some of the examples that you gave us in the OP include the heavenly host, while others do not (Genesis 1:26-27, 3:22, 11:4-7; Psalm 82 .. Psalm 82:1a is the singular exception).

That said, there is no evidence anywhere in the Holy Writ that we were made in the image of the angels (or in some kind of combo image of God AND the angels ), or that the angelic host had anything to do with the Creation in any way whatsoever*, save being present for parts of it being formed, and utterly amazed by all that they saw as they looked on and cheered.

*(The Bible speaks of the divine council of the heavenly host gathering in the Lord's presence at times where they worship Him, serve Him, and receive their marching orders from Him/obey His will. They are never said to give Him ideas/counsel about, well, anything, and they certainly did not actively participate in creating anything)​

As the psalmist tells us in one of the passages that you posited for us in the OP,

Psalm 89​

6 For who in the skies is comparable to the LORD?​

Who among the sons of the mighty is like the LORD,​

7 A God greatly feared in the council of the holy ones,​

And awesome above all those who are around Him?​

God bless you and MERRY CHRISTMAS

--David
p.s. - as a bit of as aside, the Apostle John tells us that it was the 2nd (Pre-Incarnate) Member of the Godhead who was sitting on the throne in Isaiah's vision .. Isaiah 6:1-3; John 12:41.

Finally, there is no mention of the heavenly host actively participating in the following passage, or even of them being there/coming down with the Lord.

Genesis 11​

1 Now the whole earth used the same language and the same words. ​

2 It came about as they journeyed east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. ​

3 They said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and burn them thoroughly.” And they used brick for stone, and they used tar for mortar. ​

4 They said, “Come, let us build for ourselves a city, and a tower whose top will reach into heaven, and let us make for ourselves a name, otherwise we will be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.” ​

5 The LORD/YHWH came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. ​

6 The LORD said, “Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them. ​

7 “Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.” ​

8 So ~the LORD~ scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city. ​

9 Therefore its name was called Babel, because there ~the LORD~ confused the language of the whole earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of the whole earth. ​

The Bible never says that mankind was made in the image of angels. And I never said that either. Verse 27 states that God made mankind in His image.

And there's no contradiction with God saying "let us go down" and then God subsequently confusing the language of people.

Your response doesn't actually refute anything I've said.

When God says "let us make man in our image", He's simply announcing to the heavenly host His intentions. Similar to how I can say "hey guys, let's have some pizza" and then I alone subsequently go and buy pizza for everyone.

 

[St_Worm2]

The Bible never says that mankind was made in the image of angels. And I never said that either.

For centuries people have pondered the question: who is "us" and "our" in Genesis 1:26;
Many have argued that it is the Trinity. But ... it is actually God speaking to His heavenly host.

Hello again Job 33:6, unless I'm misunderstanding you (which is always a possibility), it seems like that that is exactly what you said (or at least implied).

If, as you said, the conversation (v26) is directed toward the angelic host, instead of simply happening within the Godhead itself, how can "Let ~Us~ make man in ~Our~ image, according to ~Our~ likeness" be understood in any other way than the former (than God + the heavenly host, IOW)?

Is that not the central point of this thread, to show that v26's "Us" and "Our" refers to the heavenly host instead of the Trinity?

I'm confused (which, as I mentioned above, is hardly new for me) so, if you mean something else than that, please help me understand what you mean instead.

Thanks for your help

God bless you!!

--David

Genesis 1​

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” ​

27 God created man ~in His own~ image, ~in the image of God~ He created him; male and female He created them. ​

 

[St_Worm2]

When God says "let us make man in our image", He's simply announcing to the heavenly host His intentions.

If this is true, then the "Us" and the "Our" are still a reference to the Trinitarian Godhead, yes (if not, who else are those two plural pronouns referring to)?

Thanks again!!

--David

 

[St_Worm2]

.....there's no contradiction with God saying "let us go down" and then God subsequently confusing the language of people. Your response doesn't actually refute anything I've said.

Whoops, I forgot this part of your reply (sorry about that).

You are correct, what I pointed out doesn't (necessarily) refute what you said, but what is there in the passage that refutes what I just pointed out? What am I missing? That the "us" (in Genesis 11:7) refers to the heavenly host (instead of to the Trinitarian Godhead alone) is based upon conjecture alone, yes, because the heavenly host is nowhere mentioned in Genesis 11:1-9, only God is, yes?

Lastly, the Lord said, "let Us go down and confuse their language" (and as you just pointed out, we know that it was God alone who confused their language) so, this being the case, why would God tell the heavenly host to go down and confuse the language of the people with Him, if that's not what He meant

So (like we see in Genesis 1:26), it seems to me that the "Us" in v7 is in reference to the Trinitarian Godhead alone, ~not~ to God + the angels.

Perhaps this is why all of the branches of historic Christianity, Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant, continue to teach that the personal/plural pronouns, "Us" and "Our", refer to the Godhead in these verses?

Genesis 11​

1 Now the whole earth used the same language and the same words. ​

2 It came about as they journeyed east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. ​

3 They said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and burn them thoroughly.” And they used brick for stone, and they used tar for mortar. ​

4 They said, “Come, let us build for ourselves a city, and a tower whose top will reach into heaven, and let us make for ourselves a name, otherwise we will be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.” ​

5 The LORD/YHWH came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. ​

6 The LORD said, “Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them. ​

7 “Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.” ​

8 So ~the LORD~ scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city. ​

9 Therefore its name was called Babel, because there ~the LORD~ confused the language of the whole earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of the whole earth. ​

--David

 

[Job 33:6]

Whoops, I forgot this part of your reply (sorry about that).

You are correct, what I pointed out doesn't (necessarily) refute what you said, but what is there in the passage that refutes what I just pointed out? What am I missing? That the "us" (in Genesis 11:7) refers to the heavenly host (instead of to the Trinitarian Godhead alone) is based upon conjecture alone, yes, because the heavenly host is nowhere mentioned in Genesis 11:1-9, only God is, yes?

Lastly, the Lord said, "let Us go down and confuse their language" (and as you just pointed out, we know that it was God alone who confused their language) so, this being the case, why would God tell the heavenly host to go down and confuse the language of the people with Him, if that's not what He meant

So (like we see in Genesis 1:26), it seems to me that the "Us" in v7 is in reference to the Trinitarian Godhead alone, ~not~ to God + the angels.

Perhaps this is why all of the branches of historic Christianity, Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant, continue to teach that the personal/plural pronouns, "Us" and "Our", refer to the Godhead in these verses?

Genesis 11​

1 Now the whole earth used the same language and the same words. ​

2 It came about as they journeyed east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. ​

3 They said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and burn them thoroughly.” And they used brick for stone, and they used tar for mortar. ​

4 They said, “Come, let us build for ourselves a city, and a tower whose top will reach into heaven, and let us make for ourselves a name, otherwise we will be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.” ​

5 The LORD/YHWH came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. ​

6 The LORD said, “Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them. ​

7 “Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.” ​

8 So ~the LORD~ scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city. ​

9 Therefore its name was called Babel, because there ~the LORD~ confused the language of the whole earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of the whole earth. ​

--David

In my above response, I also pointed out how, when you're at Christmas dinner, and grandma says "hey I have an idea, let's bake some cookies" and then grandma proceeds to bake cookies, that's not a logical contradiction. It's just God conducting action with a presence of His heavenly host.

And this is commonly how ancient near east texts describe events that unfold among a multitude.

Also, in Genesis 11, God says "look" or "behold" in verse 6. God wouldn't have any reason to inform or to instruct himself to look at anything, because His co-omniscient selves would have already been looking and would have already known what was going on. So I would say, traditionally people have simply been uncomfortable with the plurality of spiritual beings in Genesis, and thus have turned the story into God mysteriously having a conversation with Himself, rather than just talking to His host.

 

[Job 33:6]

If this is true, then the "Us" and the "Our" are still a reference to the Trinitarian Godhead, yes (if not, who else are those two plural pronouns referring to)?

Thanks again!!

--David

The heavenly host are the host of angels of God's heavenly family.

 

[Job 33:6]

Whoops, I forgot this part of your reply (sorry about that).

You are correct, what I pointed out doesn't (necessarily) refute what you said, but what is there in the passage that refutes what I just pointed out? What am I missing? That the "us" (in Genesis 11:7) refers to the heavenly host (instead of to the Trinitarian Godhead alone) is based upon conjecture alone, yes, because the heavenly host is nowhere mentioned in Genesis 11:1-9, only God is, yes?

Lastly, the Lord said, "let Us go down and confuse their language" (and as you just pointed out, we know that it was God alone who confused their language) so, this being the case, why would God tell the heavenly host to go down and confuse the language of the people with Him, if that's not what He meant

So (like we see in Genesis 1:26), it seems to me that the "Us" in v7 is in reference to the Trinitarian Godhead alone, ~not~ to God + the angels.

Perhaps this is why all of the branches of historic Christianity, Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant, continue to teach that the personal/plural pronouns, "Us" and "Our", refer to the Godhead in these verses?

Genesis 11​

1 Now the whole earth used the same language and the same words. ​

2 It came about as they journeyed east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. ​

3 They said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and burn them thoroughly.” And they used brick for stone, and they used tar for mortar. ​

4 They said, “Come, let us build for ourselves a city, and a tower whose top will reach into heaven, and let us make for ourselves a name, otherwise we will be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.” ​

5 The LORD/YHWH came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. ​

6 The LORD said, “Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them. ​

7 “Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.” ​

8 So ~the LORD~ scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city. ​

9 Therefore its name was called Babel, because there ~the LORD~ confused the language of the whole earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of the whole earth. ​

--David

Here's just a real quick example I pulled from YouTube.

Notice what the speaker says. He says "let's surprise grandma". But in reality, he alone is acting. But he's announcing intentions and acting with an audience.

Or here's another example:

"Let's do some cooking". In reality it's just one person cooking with an audience.

A third example:
"Hey guys, let's do some dancing, let's show me my moves"

It's just a person announcing to an audience what he intends to do.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭11:6‭-‬8‬ ‭ESV‬‬
[6] And the Lord said, “Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do. And nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them. [7] Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another’s speech.” [8] So the Lord dispersed them from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city.

God informs by telling the others to "look/behold", announces His intentions to the audience, then proceeds to do what He intended.

 

[St_Worm2]

Also, in Genesis 11, God says "look" or "behold" in verse 6. God wouldn't have any reason to inform or to instruct himself to look at anything, because His co-omniscient selves would have already been looking and would have already known what was going on.

Hello Job 33:6, the Godhead works together as a team (of sorts) to bring about salvation. The Bible, particularly in the narrative portions, then, speaks to us humans in a way that we can relate to/understand using things such as anthropomorphic literary devices as aids (which are very valuable in the case of the Trinitarian Godhead since it is so profound a Biblical "mystery").

As far as God "talking to Himself", that happens all the time in the Bible, particularly between Father and Son, which we know is done, not out of reason or necessity, but (again) for our benefit .. e.g. John 11:42, John12:28-30.

So I would say, traditionally people have simply been uncomfortable with the plurality of spiritual beings in Genesis, and thus have turned the story into God mysteriously having a conversation with Himself, rather than just talking to His host.

The "people" you speak of, who feel uncomfortable with the doctrine of the Trinity, who are they exactly?

As I mentioned earlier, the church, literally all of it, has historically taught (and continues to teach today) that God existed from everlasting as 3 distinct persons, and that the nature of the Godhead will not change unto everlasting.

That God was talking to the angelic host (in Genesis 1 and 11) can only be surmised by conjecture, and it's clear that such conjecture creates insurmountable problems with what we know about Who the Creator is, and in Whose image alone we were created (IOW, God saying to the angelic host, let "us" create man in "our" image" makes no sense .. except as a means of supporting the un-Biblical notion/presupposition that the nature of the Godhead is not Trinitarian and/or that the Lord Jesus Christ is not God).

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - the folks in the OT did not have the understanding of the nature of the Godhead that we are privy today, but there are a number of indications that they at least had a notion about it. For instance, as King David said,

​

"THE LORD (YHWH) said to my Lord (Adonai): “Sit at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet.” .. Psalm 110:1.​

 

[St_Worm2]

The heavenly host are the host of angels of God's heavenly family.

Yes.

 

[Job 33:6]

Hello Job 33:6, the Godhead works together as a team (of sorts) to bring about salvation. The Bible, particularly in the narrative portions, then, speaks to us humans in a way that we can relate to/understand using things such as anthropomorphic literary devices as aids (which are very valuable in the case of the Trinitarian Godhead since it is so profound a Biblical "mystery").

As far as God "talking to Himself", that happens all the time in the Bible, particularly between Father and Son, which we know is done, not out of reason or necessity, but (again) for our benefit .. e.g. John 11:42, John12:28-30.


The "people" you speak of, who feel uncomfortable with the doctrine of the Trinity, who are they exactly?

As I mentioned earlier, the church, literally all of it, has historically taught (and continues to teach today) that God existed from everlasting as 3 distinct persons, and that the nature of the Godhead will not change unto everlasting.

That God was talking to the angelic host (in Genesis 1 and 11) can only be surmised by conjecture, and it's clear that such conjecture creates insurmountable problems with what we know about Who the Creator is, and in Whose image alone we were created (IOW, God saying to the angelic host, let "us" create man in "our" image" makes no sense .. except as a means of supporting the un-Biblical notion/presupposition that the nature of the Godhead is not Trinitarian and/or that the Lord Jesus Christ is not God).

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - the folks in the OT did not have the understanding of the nature of the Godhead that we are privy today, but there are a number of indications that they at least had a notion about it. For instance, as King David said,

​

"THE LORD (YHWH) said to my Lord (Adonai): “Sit at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet.” .. Psalm 110:1.​

Typically in the old testament, or perhaps universally I'll say, Yahwey does not hold conversations with the Godhead. I agree that this is something we see in the new testament quite often with Jesus speaking to the father. However, I would say that the context is different between the old and new testaments. Because the old testament tends to involve a heavenly host and divine council pretty regularly, and does not typically involve God head conversations, I would stick with ANE context in Genesis.

Consider 1 Kings Chapter 22, with the false spirits of Ahab. We do not see Yahwey having a conversation with the Godhead, rather Yahwey speaks with His host.

19 Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’
“One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’
22 “‘By what means?’ the Lord asked.
“‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.
“‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’

Or consider Job Chapter 1 and 2.
6 One day the angels[a] came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan[b] also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

Or even Job 38:7
4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?

Or Psalm 82
God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:
2 “How long will you[a] defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?[b]
3 Defend the weak and the fatherless;
uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
5 “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler.”

Usually in the OT, when Yahwey is speaking in a plural state, He is speaking with His heavenly host.

I agree that the NT is different and more commonly it involves Jesus speaking to the Father. But for Genesis, I would stick with the Old Testament's Ancient Near East contextual background.

 

[St_Worm2]

God informs by telling the others to "look/behold", announces His intentions to the audience, then proceeds to do what He intended.

Hello again Job 33:6, in Genesis 1:26, God could have certainly said to the heavenly host, "look/behold, I am about to make man in MY image, according to MY likeness", but that's not what He said! Rather, He clearly stated, "let US make man in OUR image, according to OUR likeness", which, if spoken to the heavenly host (instead of within the council of the Triune Godhead alone), makes no sense (unless the angelic host helped in the process of our creation somehow, and that we are also made in God's AND their image somehow).

For clarity's sake, do you (personally) believe in the Deity of Christ, and in the Trinitarian nature of the Godhead?

Thanks!!

--David

 

[Job 33:6]

Hello Job 33:6, the Godhead works together as a team (of sorts) to bring about salvation. The Bible, particularly in the narrative portions, then, speaks to us humans in a way that we can relate to/understand using things such as anthropomorphic literary devices as aids (which are very valuable in the case of the Trinitarian Godhead since it is so profound a Biblical "mystery").

As far as God "talking to Himself", that happens all the time in the Bible, particularly between Father and Son, which we know is done, not out of reason or necessity, but (again) for our benefit .. e.g. John 11:42, John12:28-30.


The "people" you speak of, who feel uncomfortable with the doctrine of the Trinity, who are they exactly?

As I mentioned earlier, the church, literally all of it, has historically taught (and continues to teach today) that God existed from everlasting as 3 distinct persons, and that the nature of the Godhead will not change unto everlasting.

That God was talking to the angelic host (in Genesis 1 and 11) can only be surmised by conjecture, and it's clear that such conjecture creates insurmountable problems with what we know about Who the Creator is, and in Whose image alone we were created (IOW, God saying to the angelic host, let "us" create man in "our" image" makes no sense .. except as a means of supporting the un-Biblical notion/presupposition that the nature of the Godhead is not Trinitarian and/or that the Lord Jesus Christ is not God).

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - the folks in the OT did not have the understanding of the nature of the Godhead that we are privy today, but there are a number of indications that they at least had a notion about it. For instance, as King David said,

​

"THE LORD (YHWH) said to my Lord (Adonai): “Sit at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet.” .. Psalm 110:1.​

And the Text saying "let us make in our image" is not suggesting that mankind is made in the image of angels, because as noted, verse 27 states that God alone creates.

As noted above, its similar to being at Grandma's house for Christmas dinner, and Grandma says "I know what we can do, lets bake some cookies" and Grandma alone then proceeds to bake cookies for the family. Grandma's statement is more of an announcement of what she is going to do in the presence of the family, moreso than it is an actual family activity. Hence why verse 27 is singular despite vs 26.

Its not God confused switching between plural and singular tenses like He cant decide if He is a Godhead or not. Its just God simply announcing His intention to the heavenly host, much like grandma announcing her intention to the family, and then Grandma alone bakes the cookies. God has no reason to announce and direct the attention of other members of the Godhead because theyre all co-omniscient. God would have no reason to say "Hey Jesus and Holy Spirit, look at those humans!" because of course they would all be simultaneously seeing the same things anyway. There is no reason for God to announce to Himself anything at all.

And yes, I am trinitarian. Verse 26 does not mean that mankind is made in the image of angels however. Thats an unnecessary rendering of the verse.

 

[Job 33:6]

I'll share another example of God speaking in the plural state in the OT, Isaiah Chapter 6:

6 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him were seraphim, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. 3 And they were calling to one another:
“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord Almighty;
the whole earth is full of his glory.”
4 At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke.
5 “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”
6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.”
8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”


Here God says "who will go for us?"

But, as we can see, in the verses above, its just God speaking to His heavenly Host.
If not for the first 7 verses, people might be confused about who God is speaking to. Some might assume He is addressing the Godhead. But in fact, its just God speaking to His host.

 

[St_Worm2]

God has no reason to announce and direct the attention of other members of the Godhead because theyre all co-omniscient. God would have no reason to say "Hey Jesus and Holy Spirit, look at those humans!" because of course they would all be simultaneously seeing the same things anyway. There is no reason for God to announce to Himself anything at all.

Again, v26 was written for us, and it is (for us) a look into what happened within the Godhead concerning the creation of mankind, so that we, at the very least, know why/how/by Whom we were created.

And yes, I am trinitarian. Verse 26 does not mean that mankind is made in the image of angels however. Thats an unnecessary rendering of the verse.

That, IMHO, is the only way that that verse can be taken if God was truly speaking to the heavenly host when He said, "let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness".

I'm thinking that it's time to throw in the towel here and simply go with an, I'm willing to agree to disagree if you are, because I don't think that we are going to convince each other of our particular POV's

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - I will say this in a kind of agreement of sorts with you, that it is more than doubtful that anyone living during OT times would have understood that v26's "Us" and "Our" might be referring to a Godhead that is, by nature, triune. Much that has been revealed to us today was concealed in the OT as I know that you are aware (but the fact that those in the OT did not know about the true nature of God does not make the facts concerning His nature any less true .. just look, for instance, at what the Jews did/do with Isaiah 53, as another for instance of what was concealed and is now revealed).

Again though, I'm HAPPY to agree to disagree about all of this so that we can move on to other matters (in reality, neither of us can 'prove' our positions, can we ).

 

[Job 33:6]

Again, v26 was written for us, and it is (for us) a look into what happened within the Godhead concerning the creation of mankind, so that we, at the very least, know why/how/by Whom we were created.


That, IMHO, is the only way that that verse can be taken if God was truly speaking to the heavenly host when He said, "let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness".

I'm thinking that it's time to throw in the towel here and simply go with an, I'm willing to agree to disagree if you are, because I don't think that we are going to convince each other of our particular POV's

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - I will say this in a kind of agreement of sorts with you, that it is more than doubtful that anyone living during OT times would have understood that v26's "Us" and "Our" might be referring to a Godhead that is, by nature, triune. Much that has been revealed to us today was concealed in the OT as I know that you are aware (but the fact that those in the OT did not know about the true nature of God does not make the facts concerning His nature any less true .. just look, for instance, at what the Jews did/do with Isaiah 53, as another for instance of what was concealed and is now revealed).

Again though, I'm HAPPY to agree to disagree about all of this so that we can move on to other matters (in reality, neither of us can 'prove' our positions, can we ).

In the OT, Yahwey doesn't have conversations with himself to inform the reader what's going on inside of Himself. That's just not how Yahwey is described nor operates.

On the contrary, the Bible gives examples of God speaking to other heavenly beings using the same language. It's also actually very common in extrabiblical ANE texts for divine beings to speak to one another as it's worded in the Bible.

To suggest that it's God speaking to Himself is simply anachronistic and unnecessary.

And ok, That's fine! We can agree to disagree. Thanks for the conversation!