Galatians Chapter 3 Parsed

[Studyman]

No I apologize, this was not taught to me but instead inferred by a bad translation I read many years ago. When I became a Christian about 11 years ago I began reading the NLT version and after about 2 years of studying the Bible and the Greek manuscripts I came to the conclusion that the NLT is not a very accurate translation. So I misunderstood Romans 9 based on the NLT version which seems to imply that the stumbling block placed in Zion was the law but after searching for the verse and not being able to find it in the NASB which I use now, I decided to check the NLT version of Romans 9 and sure enough I found the source of the mistake.

“But the people of Israel, who tried so hard to get right with God by keeping the law, never succeeded. Why not? Because they were trying to get right with God by keeping the law instead of by trusting in him. They stumbled over the great rock in their path. God warned them of this in the Scriptures when he said, “I am placing a stone in Jerusalem that makes people stumble, a rock that makes them fall. But anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭31‬-‭33‬ ‭NLT‬‬

I haven’t used the NLT version in about 8 or 9 years but evidently I retained the mistake I learned from it and hadn’t realized it until now because of this discussion. So I do humbly apologize for my mistake. I’ve been using the NASB after abandoning the NLT which is a far superior translation.

“What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭30‬-‭33‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The NASB makes it clear that the stumbling block was Christ not the law. So I concede that you are correct the law was not put in place by God to be a stumbling block for the Jews. Although I do see how the law became a stumbling block for them in the sense that they sought justification thru the law instead of by faith and it’s because of this that I held to that notion for so long because it seemed to line up with the result of the law being given to the Jews. So I retract my previous statement that the law was placed before the Jews by God for the purpose of being a stumbling block. I have more to say on this subject but my lunch break is over so I will reiterate at my next convenience. God bless.

Thanks for the reply.

While I agree there are many new age, or progressive translations, I personally have found that even those have enough truth that if it's the only bible a man has, he can still find truth.

But honestly, the over arching philosophy being promoted didn't change just because you changed translations. The foundation is still the same. That the Pharisees were obeying God's Law in order to earn salvation, or justification. And this is simply a falsehood, if the scriptures are to be trusted.

Consider Isaiah 1, in any translation.

1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

This is not a people who were trying to be justified by, as is taught by many of this world's self-proclaimed "ministers of righteousness", "Living by the Law of Moses". This is so important to understand. They were disobedient and unfaithful to God. Not "Faithful" like Caleb, or Joshua or Daniel or Zacharias or Simeon or the Wise men. These "Shepherds" were corrupters, as Jesus described their children, "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."

But what do these disobedient men, who profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. continue to do?

10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. 11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

The Pharisees did the exact same thing.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

They were not trying to be Justified by the LAW. They rejected God's Law. They were trying to be Justified by the "Works" of the Law, which was added till the SEED should come.

This is what God wanted from them, and men of FAITH lived by them.

16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

Zacharias, Simeon, Caleb, Joshua, Abraham Paul, Peter, James, and EVERY Example of Faith in the Bible, "Believed God" in this Instruction. The Pharisees didn't, instead, they were trying to be Justified by the "works" of their version of the Levitical Priesthood, which was temporary, and only put in Place, "Til the SEED should come".

Had they believed Moses, and "yielded themselves servants to obey God, like Zacharias and all the faithful did, they would have known the Christ when HE came.

I hope you might consider these Scriptures, and the warning of the Jesus of the Bible concerning the "many" who come in HIS name.

 

[GDL]

Had they believed Moses, and "yielded themselves servants to obey God, like Zacharias and all the faithful did, they would have known the Christ when HE came.

Did the faithful ones like Zacharias (a Priest in the Aaronic line and thus Levitical Priesthood) partake in (or in his case even perform or facilitate) sacrifices for sin(s)?

Was Zacharias' obedience to God's commandments in the Law of Moses sufficient to justify Him foundationally in God's sight?

Was Zacharias' faith in God his foundational justification before Messiah came?

 

[Studyman]

Did the faithful ones like Zacharias (a Priest in the Aaronic line and thus Levitical Priesthood) partake in (or in his case even perform or facilitate) sacrifices for sin(s)?

They knew who the Christ was, and that the Priesthood sacrificial "Works" for remission of sins, were only added, till the seed should come, the true Lamb of God. This is why Jesus still honored His Father's commandments, but didn't continue in the Priesthood "works of the law" when HE healed lepers and forgave sins. He knew HE was the SEED, as did Zacharias and the others who "Believed Moses".,

Was Zacharias' obedience to God's commandments in the Law of Moses sufficient to justify Him foundationally in God's sight?

It seems that according to scriptures, Zacharias' "belief" and subsequently "Yielding himself" a servant to obey God, and this was accounted to him as righteousness, as it was for Abraham. His fruits, exhibited the Faith of Jesus prophesied by the Law and Prophets. He knew who His Savior and Redeemer was, because HE believed Moses and the Prophets who God sent to prophesy of Him.

It's simply man's reasonable service, his "duty" to Glorify God with respect and honor Him with obedience, as HE is a great God. All have sinned. AS I posted but you refused to acknowledge, "shall Zacharias continue in sin now that His sins are forgiven?" God forbid! I know it is beneath you to answer questions from an unwashed, unlearned nobody like me. But I'll ask anyway,

Shall a man continue in Transgressions after that God has shown them Grace? What difference does it make how this Grace came about? Whether it was by the Priest of God presenting the sin offerings of the Old Priesthood, or if it was by the Priest of God offering HIS Own Blood as a sin offering in the New Priesthood, prophesied "After those days"? Men are not to "continue in sin" after that Grace has come.

Zacharias knew who His Savior was, because HE became a "Servant of God's Righteousness" by "Yielding Himself" a servant to obey God as Paul and the Church of God in His Time did.

His story would be a fascinating one, as a good standing member of God's Church, who lived in both the Old, and the New Priesthood Covenants of God.

Was Zacharias' faith in God his foundational justification before Messiah came?

Zacharias Faith was in the Redeemer God promised.

Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

Simeon as well.

Luke 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; 32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Even Abraham understood this. "And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together."

Jesus said if the Pharisees had believed Moses, they too, would have known Him. It is still the same today IMV.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[GDL]

They knew who the Christ was, and that the Priesthood sacrificial "Works" for remission of sins, were only added, till the seed should come, the true Lamb of God. This is why Jesus still honored His Father's commandments, but didn't continue in the Priesthood "works of the law" when HE healed lepers and forgave sins. He knew HE was the SEED, as did Zacharias and the others who "Believed Moses".,

You've never proven with Scripture that works of law refers only to the sacrifices. Until you do, I'm ignoring your unproven use of such terminology.

It seems that according to scriptures, Zacharias' "belief" and subsequently "Yielding himself" a servant to obey God, and this was accounted to him as righteousness, as it was for Abraham. His fruits, exhibited the Faith of Jesus prophesied by the Law and Prophets. He knew who His Savior and Redeemer was, because HE believed Moses and the Prophets who God sent to prophesy of Him.

Is accounted to him for righteousness the same as a person being foundationally justified by Faith in Jesus Christ? It's an honest question and not rhetorical. Prove your case with Scripture if you can.

It's simply man's reasonable service, his "duty" to Glorify God with respect and honor Him with obedience, as HE is a great God. All have sinned. AS I posted but you refused to acknowledge, "shall Zacharias continue in sin now that His sins are forgiven?" God forbid! I know it is beneath you to answer questions from an unwashed, unlearned nobody like me. But I'll ask anyway,

Shall a man continue in Transgressions after that God has shown them Grace? What difference does it make how this Grace came about? Whether it was by the Priest of God presenting the sin offerings of the Old Priesthood, or if it was by the Priest of God offering HIS Own Blood as a sin offering in the New Priesthood, prophesied "After those days"? Men are not to "continue in sin" after that Grace has come.

As I've said before more than once; you're preaching to the choir about the necessity to willingly obey God.

Zacharias knew who His Savior was, because HE became a "Servant of God's Righteousness" by "Yielding Himself" a servant to obey God as Paul and the Church of God in His Time did.

Again, IMO you're mixing pre & post Christ instruction. In Zacharias' case he was obeying Mosaic Law for the righteousness and blamelessness that was contained in doing so, but could that foundationally justify him? As a priest in the Aaronic/Levitical line who served in the Temple, can you prove with Scripture that he was not involved in the sacrifices you speak so much against?

And I disagree with you that he knew who His Savior was simply because he was obeying God. The special revelation from God per Luke1:11-20 and all he experienced per Luke1 is why he recognized and believed in his Savior. Included in this information is how he was sanctioned for not believing what Gabriel told him.

His story would be a fascinating one, as a good standing member of God's Church, who lived in both the Old, and the New Priesthood Covenants of God.

Zacharias Faith was in the Redeemer God promised.

Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

And Luke1:67 is a part of Luke1 with substantial context as to what Luke1:67 is saying.

Simeon as well.

Luke 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; 32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

And, like Zacharias, Luke2:26 explains the special revelation about Messiah that God gave to Simeon to cause him to recognize Him. No doubt God graced devout people with special knowledge and tasks in an amazingly important time.

Even Abraham understood this. "And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together."

Jesus said if the Pharisees had believed Moses, they too, would have known Him. It is still the same today IMV.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

No argument that a Savior was to come as presented all the way back in Gen3.

 

[Davy]

I am saying nothing of mine own self, rather, I am letting the Christ of the Bible define Himself, through the Holy scriptures, which say that the Rock of Israel, Who His God and My God sent, became the man Jesus, the Lord's Christ, which is my Redeemer and Savior.

As the Scriptures I posted, but you didn't acknowledge teach, He is come to remove my transgression, and "Leadeth me in the way that I should go", to reconcile me to His Father, as HE defines as the One True God in the NT.

John 17: And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

And HIS Father placed Him on His Right Hand, because Jesus the man chose the Good and Refused the Evil, and is advocating between me and His Father to this day.


JOHN 17:4 KJV I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

The New Testament Scriptures testify about the "Immanuel" of Isaiah. In Matthew 1:23 we are told that the meaning of Christ's name "Emmanuel" is "God with us".

And In Revelation 1, Jesus is quoting directly from the Old Testament Scripture that He is God, by using the Alpha and Omega idea. And these pointers are only a start in The New Testament that prove that Jesus Christ is God.

Then Hebrews even testifies that everything that was made, was made through Jesus Christ, and that He is the express image of The Father. Even when Apostle Philip asked Jesus to shew him The Father Jesus said, "he that has seen Me has seen The Father".

Therefore, The New Testament DOES NOT ANYWHERE claim Jesus was 'made' or 'created', that referring to His Spirit that existed with The Father from Eternity. Jesus' flesh body was made or created, but not Jesus The Christ Immanuel, Who has always existed as a Spirit.

 

[Studyman]

You've never proven with Scripture that works of law refers only to the sacrifices. Until you do, I'm ignoring your unproven use of such terminology.

Had you read my posts, you would find that I actually said, the Pharisees were promoting their corrupted version of the Levitical Priesthood but had omitted the most important matters of God's Law. These Priesthood "works" included but were not limited to selling sheep and goats for sin offerings, cleansing rituals and tithes along with "many" other such "works" they promoted, according to the Jesus of the Bible. I posted the Jesus' of the Bibles own Words which prove this, but you don't seem to believe them.

Their Jews manmade religious tradition was their Law, as Paul said in Gal 1 and Rom. 10 and elsewhere. But it wasn't God's Law as the Christ clearly tells us, both as the Holy One of Israels, and also as the man HE became in the person of Jesus.

Zacharias lived by the Law of Moses, and therefore knew the Holy One of Israel who gave Moses' God's Law. Like Jesus said, if the Pharisees had believed Moses, they too would have known Him, just as Zacharias did. But for those who don't believe Moses and the Prophets this same Christ says this; "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Is accounted to him for righteousness the same as a person being foundationally justified by Faith in Jesus Christ? It's an honest question and not rhetorical. Prove your case with Scripture if you can.

Luke 5: 31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. 32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

In your religion, do you preach that Zacharias had yet to repent before God and become a new man, "After God, created in Righteousness and True godliness", and that the Scriptures are lying about him being righteous before God? In the Scriptures, who do you preach was the God spoken of by Zacharias; "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people," Is this not speaking to the Christ, the Holy One of Israel who became Flesh in the Person of Jesus??

And Simeon; "For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel."

And Anna; "And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them "that looked for redemption" in Jerusalem.

Is this not the same Christ who created all things?

As I've said before more than once; you're preaching to the choir about the necessity to willingly obey God.

Then why are we arguing about the Pharisees who refused to willingly obey God, VS Zacharias who willingly submitted himself to obey God? Is this God not the Holy One of Israel who became Flesh in the person of Jesus? Is a man who was obedient to HIM, before HE became Flesh, any less righteous than a man who is obedient to Him after He became Flesh?

John 20: 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

In your religion, are Zacharias, Simeon and Anna excluded from these Words of the Christ of the Bible?

Again, IMO you're mixing pre & post Christ instruction.

Who taught you that the Christ of the Bible, the very Word of God's instruction changed when He became a man and dwelled among us?

Here is the Prophesy.

Jer. 31: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Where is there any talk of changing instruction?

In Zacharias' case he was obeying Mosaic Law for the righteousness and blamelessness that was contained in doing so, but could that foundationally justify him?

It was the Christ, the Holy One of Israel, who gave His People instruction through Moses, at least according to the Bible. So Zacharias was obeying Christ's Laws, as Luke told you. Here is John speaking. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Is. 43: 25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. 26 Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.

In your religion, did Zacharias put this God in remembrance? Was Zacharias Faithful to this God? Or in your religion, is there another god?

As a priest in the Aaronic/Levitical line who served in the Temple, can you prove with Scripture that he was not involved in the sacrifices you speak so much against?

I don't "speak against" the sacrifices, and you cannot find one place where I did. This is just more misrepresentation on your part. I believe what is written, therefore I understand that the Levitical Priesthood with its "works" were temporary in their beginning, and put in place for a reason, and put in place until the Prophesied Lamb of God should come.

Why would Zacharias or anyone faithful to God, continue in a temporary Priesthood work, that was prophesied to change at the coming of the "man of sorrows"? And why would they reject the Priesthood sacrificial "works" before the Lamb of God had come?

What is sad, is that we can't even have a discussion about these prudent and relevant questions, not because I am not willing, but because you aren't.

And I disagree with you that he knew who His Savior was simply because he was obeying God.

His Savior "WAS" the Christ, the Holy One of Israel that he obeyed GDL. God sent no other, at least, not the One True God and Father of the Lord's Christ. And Zacharias waited for and knew this same "Lord God of Israel", their "Redeemer" would become a man spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

Is. 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. 26 Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.

Isn't this your Christ as well?

The special revelation from God per Luke1:11-20 and all he experienced per Luke1 is why he recognized and believed in his Savior. Included in this information is how he was sanctioned for not believing what Gabriel told him.

He asked for a sign and Gaberial gave it to him. In your religion, does your God admonish those who He Loves? I find this fascinating. You defend the children of the devil as Law keepers, contrary to EVERY Word the Jesus of the Bible says about them, and you demean righteous, obedient Zacharias because he doubted that he and his wife could have a son in their old age.

And Luke1:67 is a part of Luke1 with substantial context as to what Luke1:67 is saying.

According to who? Your trainers?

And, like Zacharias, Luke2:26 explains the special revelation about Messiah that God gave to Simeon to cause him to recognize Him. No doubt God graced devout people with special knowledge and tasks in an amazingly important time.

You have your religion. But the Scriptures say Zacharias knew Him because the Law and Prophets prophesied of Him, and Zacharias believed God's Word regarding Him. This same Christ said that the Pharisees didn't know HIM, because they didn't believe Moses, For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Wasn't this Christ the same Holy One of Israel who gave Moses His Word in the First place?

Doesn't your God give His Spirit to those who "Believe Him"? How was this a "special revelation"?

No argument that a Savior was to come as presented all the way back in Gen3.

Yes, as Abraham also knew. "And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together."

 

[GDL]

Had you read my posts, you would find that I actually said, the Pharisees were promoting their corrupted version of the Levitical Priesthood but had omitted the most important matters of God's Law. These Priesthood "works" included but were not limited to selling sheep and goats for sin offerings, cleansing rituals and tithes along with "many" other such "works" they promoted, according to the Jesus of the Bible. I posted the Jesus' of the Bibles own Words which prove this, but you don't seem to believe them.

I did read many of your statements, just as I read this one. And in this one you are repeating yourself and again relating "works' to what the Priest's were doing, which is you once again limiting works of law to what the Priests were doing.

You present an admixture of Scriptures and your own concepts, and this is what I disagree with and don't believe, because you misapply Scripture, add to it, ignore context, and do not post verses that disagree with what you say.

 

[GDL]

Zacharias lived by the Law of Moses, and therefore knew the Holy One of Israel who gave Moses' God's Law. Like Jesus said, if the Pharisees had believed Moses, they too would have known Him, just as Zacharias did. But for those who don't believe Moses and the Prophets this same Christ says this; "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Sure Zacharias (and most of Israel) was awaiting Messiah - many Jews still are awaiting Him - this is not novel. But, once again you ignore the work of Gabriel whom God sent to inform Zacharias of who his son would be (the Prophet/Herald of the coming King Messiah) and you ignore the rest of Luke1 and the additional work of Gabriel with Mary, and then the interactions between Mary and Elizabeth, and thus the special awareness Zacharias had been given by God as to what was taking place.

Your ignoring of context is acute and thus very vivid.

 

[GDL]

In your religion

My Faith is based FROM the Bible. It's clear you are making up a religion by eisegeting and deleting portions of the Text that don't support your eisegesis and that you are denigrating others (down through the millennia) who have much better understanding of God's Word than you do.

I'm very open to and work at continuing understanding of the Text. Your theory is a non-starter and may be the epitome of works salvation that I normally take issue with as being inappropriately applied and alleged.

The rest of this section of your post has been asked and answered.

 

[GDL]

Then why are we arguing about the Pharisees who refused to willingly obey God, VS Zacharias who willingly submitted himself to obey God? Is this God not the Holy One of Israel who became Flesh in the person of Jesus? Is a man who was obedient to HIM, before HE became Flesh, any less righteous than a man who is obedient to Him after He became Flesh?

John 20: 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

In your religion, are Zacharias, Simeon and Anna excluded from these Words of the Christ of the Bible?

Try to study some of the issues and timing of justification and the new birth in relation to the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Consider that you have works of law misinterpreted. Consider what I showed you re: your misapplied order of Scripture related to Zacharias. Really, you are so far behind and misplaced from the curve and there are many in the "religions" you hate that could help you immensely. You don't have to agree with everything they say but you should at least get some basics set.

You only think we're arguing about the Pharisees because you've made up or misunderstood that I think they were not a problem that Jesus contended with. I simply don't share your sharp focus on the Levitical Priesthood being the only issue that needed to be dealt with for Salvation or whatever your focus is all about.

 

[GDL]

Who taught you that the Christ of the Bible, the very Word of God's instruction changed when He became a man and dwelled among us?

Here is the Prophesy.

Jer. 31: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Where is there any talk of changing instruction?

Who taught you that there was no change of law, Priesthood, instruction, etc. before and after the Resurrection of Messiah? I thought you've taken quite the stand on the change of the Priesthood and sacrifices of goats.

 

[GDL]

In your religion, did Zacharias put this God in remembrance? Was Zacharias Faithful to this God? Or in your religion, is there another god?

Sorry, but that's enough. You're just too far off base Scripturally and your continual jabs against vast numbers of Christians over the centuries that have way more correct understanding than you speaks way too loudly to me. It's really quite deafening.

I leave with the opinion that you are the one who has made up a religion, you may well not know the true Christ since you work hard to avoid and thus negate Scripture that speaks of Him being God, you do not understand justification through faith in Jesus Christ and may very well be the epitome of works of law for such foundational justification, you have no comprehension of context, you make up terminology to fit your connecting of Scriptures, etc., etc., etc., all the while continually denigrating everyone but you as being in some fake religion.

I made a mistake in butting in and providing for you a sounding board for your absurd views. However, just like any electronic device, anyone can thankfully turn you or any of us off at any time. Also, on a limited positive note, I did learn a few things along the way. One was that my Seminary professor was correct in his assessment of the value of commentaries sometimes helping us to see what is correct by interpreting incorrectly. You've provided much in this regard. In line with this I saw at least one thing while verifying how wrong you are that may have provided some greater insight into the freedom we have in Christ, which was quite unexpected.

 

[Studyman]

The New Testament Scriptures testify about the "Immanuel" of Isaiah. In Matthew 1:23 we are told that the meaning of Christ's name "Emmanuel" is "God with us".

And In Revelation 1, Jesus is quoting directly from the Old Testament Scripture that He is God, by using the Alpha and Omega idea. And these pointers are only a start in The New Testament that prove that Jesus Christ is God.

My post doesn't suggest otherwise. The One True God sent His Son my God, the Light of the World, to the earth in the very beginning.

"Let there be Light".

This Light is the Holy One of Israel.

Is. 48: 15 CLV 12 Hearken to Me, Jacob, My servant, and Israel, My called. I am He! I am the First! Indeed, I am the Last!" 13 Indeed, My hand founded the earth, and My right handbreadth measured the heavens. I am calling to them, and they are standing together." 14 Convene, all of you, and hear! Who among you tells these things? Yahweh loves him, he who will do His desire in Babylon, when His arm is on the Chaldeans." 15 I, yea I, I speak. Indeed, I call him. I bring him, and I prosper his way." 16 Draw near to me! Hear this! From the beginning, I did not speak in concealment, nor in a dark place of the earth. From the era of its coming, I was there, and now my Lord Yahweh sends me and His spirit." 17 Thus says Yahweh, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, "I, Yahweh, your Elohim, will teach you to benefit, causing you to tread in the way in which you shall go." 18 O that you attended to My instructions! Then your welfare will become as a stream, and your righteousness as billows of the sea."

Then Hebrews even testifies that everything that was made, was made through Jesus Christ, and that He is the express image of The Father. Even when Apostle Philip asked Jesus to shew him The Father Jesus said, "he that has seen Me has seen The Father".

Yes, the Holy One of Israel, that His God Sent, Became a man in the person of Jesus. He and His Father are One as the Jesus of the Bible teaches. It is this God, Christ's God, that were being reconciled to.

John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Therefore, The New Testament DOES NOT ANYWHERE claim Jesus was 'made' or 'created', that referring to His Spirit that existed with The Father from Eternity.

I never suggested any different.

Jesus' flesh body was made or created, but not Jesus The Christ Immanuel, Who has always existed as a Spirit.

The Law and Prophets prophesy the Christ, the Holy One of Israel would become a man, flesh and blood. He offered Himself to His Father, and risked His immortality to become the unblemished Lamb of God.

Modern religions have created an image of the Son in the likeness of some long-haired handsome man, who wasn't really a man, but just looked like one. And when the going got tough, as it does for all men, their Jesus just kicked in a little God power no other human had ever had access to and overcame His Flesh in this manner. So then their Jesus wasn't really flesh and blood who overcame temptation in all ways as His Brethren but was always God and therefore didn't achieve anything worthy of great honor, as a God would have no difficulty at all, being sinless.

It is this Jesus, created by religious men that I hope to point out for discussion.

An analogy would be if the God and Father of the Lord's Christ was a coach, and Jesus was His Son, so the coach gave his son performance enhancing drugs that no other player had access to. And then when the son outperforms everyone else, the coach gives him the trophy and a name above all other players.

This is why I'm careful when asked, "Is Jesus God"? And yes, HE is my God, sitting at the right Hand of His Father in heaven, advocating between me and His Father, who HE said Sent Him.

Since HE is my Savior, it seems faithful to let HIM define Himself, and not the religions of the world HE warned me about.

 

[Studyman]

I did read many of your statements, just as I read this one. And in this one you are repeating yourself and again relating "works' to what the Priest's were doing, which is you once again limiting works of law to what the Priests were doing.

"Had you read my posts, you would find that I actually said, the Pharisees were promoting their corrupted version of the Levitical Priesthood but had omitted the most important matters of God's Law."

Mal. 2: 7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts. 8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. 9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

Matt. 23: 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

John 2: 16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

Is. 1:10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. 11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. 12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

Acts 7: 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

I am sorry your trainers didn't teach you these things, but neither did Gamaliel to those who learned at his feet. But honestly, you unbelief in what is written, doesn't make my faith in God Void.

You present an admixture of Scriptures and your own concepts, and this is what I disagree with and don't believe, because you misapply Scripture, add to it, ignore context, and do not post verses that disagree with what you say.

Yes, I do not post verses that disagree with what I said on this issue, because there are none. You can provide nothing from scriptures to prove that the Pharisees were "living by the Law of Moses". The only way you can even have any biblical support for such an insidious falsehood, is by taking a couple of verses, separating them from the rest of the Bible, then wresting them for your own purposes in a manner which would not be possible had you followed the instructions of the Christ of the Bible, and Paul regarding the use and purpose of Scripture.

 

[Studyman]

Sure Zacharias (and most of Israel) was awaiting Messiah - many Jews still are awaiting Him - this is not novel.

What an interesting religious philosophy. As I read the Scriptures, Zacharias, Simeon, Anna and the wisemen were no longer waiting for the Messiah. But your training and study method brings you to the conclusion that they were no different than the Pharisees.

Fascinating.

But, once again you ignore the work of Gabriel whom God sent to inform Zacharias of who his son would be (the Prophet/Herald of the coming King Messiah) and you ignore the rest of Luke1 and the additional work of Gabriel with Mary, and then the interactions between Mary and Elizabeth, and thus the special awareness Zacharias had been given by God as to what was taking place.

Your ignoring of context is acute and thus very vivid.

I see, so according to your training, the Faith of Zacharias had nothing to do with God choosing Him to raise John the Baptist. So the Words Luke were inspired to write about the Faith of Zacharias were what, just coincidence, and I am to ignore them, because they don't support the religion you are promoting? And the Faith of Simeon didn't have anything to do with his relationship with God, and the Faith of Anna didn't have anything to do with her preaching of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem?

I don't believe the context you are promoting, but I can see you will not be persuaded otherwise.

 

[Studyman]

Try to study some of the issues and timing of justification and the new birth in relation to the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Consider that you have works of law misinterpreted.

If your religious philosophy, "The Pharisees were living by the Law of Moses" was true perhaps I would reconsider what the scriptures have taught me. But this doctrine you are promoting is false. It's a myth, leaven, a falsehood, or to be frank, a lie. Now I have showed you the Christ's own Words, and Paul's, and the Prophets which clearly expose that this foundational doctrine your religious school taught you is a deception. Zacharias was "living by the Law of Moses", the Pharisees were not. In fact, it is the ONE distinguishable difference between Zacharias, and the Pharisees.

What this world's religious schools didn't teach you, is that Zacharias, the Zacharias of Luke, was the "New Man" created after God in righteousness and true Holiness. He knew the Gospel of Christ where the Righteousness of God and the Wrath of God is revealed against all unrighteousness and ungodliness of man that Paul spoke to in Rom. 1.

Ez. 18: 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Zacharias was "born again", while the Pharisses were still dead in their sins because they didn't believe Moses and the Prophets.

I can't make you consider what is actually written, but am sharing with you a perspective of a nobody who hasn't been indoctrinated by this world's religious schools.

Consider what I showed you re: your misapplied order of Scripture related to Zacharias. Really, you are so far behind and misplaced from the curve and there are many in the "religions" you hate that could help you immensely. You don't have to agree with everything they say but you should at least get some basics set.

If you had paid the Watchtower Bible School of Gilead to teach you about God you would be just as confident, yet your religious philosophy would be different. Had you attended a Catholic Seminary, or the Seventh-day Adventist Theological Seminary again, you would be telling me how lost I am, but the religious philosophy you would promote, would be different.
So you are free to adopt any religion you want, and promote it, and there is sure good money in doing so, if you get a degree or certificate from whichever religious franchise you adopt.

But as I said from the beginning, I don't believe the God of the Bible is a God that you can pay someone to know.

You only think we're arguing about the Pharisees because you've made up or misunderstood that I think they were not a problem that Jesus contended with. I simply don't share your sharp focus on the Levitical Priesthood being the only issue that needed to be dealt with for Salvation or whatever your focus is all about.

Your focus is on whatever the religion you adopted teaches you. I have asked you questions, and you can't answer them, because to do so would bring question to your adopted understanding.

I asked you once, even by God's Own Words, and you ignore Him as though HE doesn't exist.

But I'll do so again.

Is. 1: 10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. 11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

What "works" of Law did the Pharisees who were teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. and Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition., who Jesus said Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law?, who Jesus called "children of the devil" live by? You preach, "by the Law of Moses", not that it's your doctrine, but that of those who trained you. But the Bible teaches differently. This is not my fault you are not allowed to engage in an honest discussion about these things.

And what was the purpose of rejecting God's Laws but continuing in the sacrificial "works" of the Levitical Priesthood in Isaiah, if not for justification. And where is your Biblical Support that the Pharisees partook of a different religion than the Jews in Isaiah?

You can't even engage in an honest discussion about these things, because of your eisegesis.

That isn't my fault.

 

[Studyman]

Who taught you that there was no change of law, Priesthood, instruction, etc. before and after the Resurrection of Messiah? I thought you've taken quite the stand on the change of the Priesthood and sacrifices of goats.

Again, you must resort to misrepresenting my posts to deflect away from answering my questions. You know full well my point is that it was the Priesthood that changed, not God's instruction in righteousness. You know this, and yet you still post this foolishness.

It's ok to disagree, but purposeful dishonesty is a sign of a much deeper problem. I hope you might step back and consider.

 

[Davy]

Zacharias was "born again", while the Pharisses were still dead in their sins because they didn't believe Moses and the Prophets.

Well said. That was exactly the scribe's and Pharisee's problem. They weren't following what God said, they were following their own traditions they created, which one of the main doctrinal creations during the Jew's captivity to Babylon was the Babylonian Talmud, a set of Jewish sage writings not actually from the Word of God. That Talmud is what Judaism since the Babylon captivity is mainly about.

 

[Studyman]

Well said. That was exactly the scribe's and Pharisee's problem. They weren't following what God said, they were following their own traditions they created, which one of the main doctrinal creations during the Jew's captivity to Babylon was the Babylonian Talmud, a set of Jewish sage writings not actually from the Word of God. That Talmud is what Judaism since the Babylon captivity is mainly about.

How wonderful, and kind of rare that you know this. Their "law" was spoken of off and on throughout the Scriptures. One such place was when they, (the Circumcision) taught for doctrine that the Gentiles (in the flesh) were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Good for you that you understand this

 

[Davy]

How wonderful, and kind of rare that you know this. Their "law" was spoken of off and on throughout the Scriptures. One such place was when they, (the Circumcision) taught for doctrine that the Gentiles (in the flesh) were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Good for you that you understand this

What's worse is how their Talmud justifies their mistreatment of the Gentile "goyim" cattle, assigning ideas that Gentiles are like mindless beasts of burden created to be treated like animals.