Gal 4 "under the Law" vs "under Grace" in Romans 6 and not sinning

[tzadik]

He accomplished the law at the Cross.

Why did God have to "fulfill" or "do away" with...the commandment to honor your father and your mother, or do not murder, or love your neighbor as yourself, or take care of your animals, or do not have relations with your kin, or do not blaspheme the name of God, or do not have any other gods other than the One True God?
It's preposterous to suggest that any of God's Holy instructions need to be done away with, especially in order to bring us salvation. It is SIN and sin only that causes physical and eternal death. God didn't give us His holy law only to then deem it worthless and against His believers.

The law of love is the new command. It contains all the that will cause harm to God's children not just 5 commands. The 10 commandments doesn't even speak of loving one another. The 10 says nothing about hating one another. It doesn't say anything about treating others with respect. There are hundreds of ways we can mistreat our fellow man and the are all included in the law of love.

First of all, at no point did I ever suggest that we are to live according to only the "10 commandments".

As far as the Sabbath command is concerned, it is a ritual command given to Israel. They were to remember God's delivering them out of bondage in Egypt and remember the Creator.

You can call it ritual. God calls it His Holy Day. You can call it temporal, God calls it Everlasting.
So at this point it's your word against God's. God tells the sons of Israel to observe and keep the Sabbath holy FOREVER!

Paul tells us the 10 were temporary laws given by God to Israel. They were temporary because Israel broke the rules of the covenant. That covenant ended at the Cross.

Not sure what you are suggesting "ended at the cross".
Did or did not the women wait until after the Sabbath to buy spices to take to Yeshua's tomb? (Mark 16:1)
Did or did not Paul offer up sacrifices to complete his Nazarite vows according to Numbers 6? (Acts 18:18, Acts 21:23-26)
Did or did not Paul tell us that he believed everything that was in accordance to the Law and the Prophets (Acts 24:14)
Did or did not the disciples continue to fellowship on the Sabbath day as it is commanded in Leviticus 23 for the Sabbath to be a day of holy convocation.
I could go on.
For you to even suggest that ANY of the 10 commandments, let alone the remaining commandments throughout Scriptures are no longer applicable is crazy.

I see you didn't include the remainder of Jesus thought in Matt 5:17-19. If you believe that Jesus didn't fulfill the law at the cross and it is now finished then you would be required to observe every tittle and jot of the law. Which is it friend?

I gladly choose to follow the example of my Messiah and live my life in accordance to All of the Scriptures. Genesis through Revelation is inspired by God and given for my teaching, reproof, correction and training in Righteousness.
God said both in Matthew 5:17-19 and in Luke 16:17 that until heaven and earth pass and EVERYTHING is accomplished that nothing will pass away from God's Law.

You let me know when you see heaven and earth pass away (Revelations 21:1) and when Yeshua returns to accomplish everything.

The Scriptures are crystal clear in pointing out that ALOT is still to come even though ALOT has already happened.
Acts 3:18-21
"But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you,
whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time."

If anyone thinks that ALL has already been accomplished, we're all screwed.
Good thing He's coming back for Part 2.

 

[tzadik]

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


You are confusing Israel of the Flesh with Israel of the Promise...

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Let's continue your line of thinking a bit further...

"If" Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 are talking about "Spiritual Israel" who is the "House of Judah"?

 

[tzadik]

I fully agree its to be observed by Israeli through out their generations.

Are you agreeing with me then, that an Israeli believer is supposed to be obedient to the Law of God throughout their generations, keeping the Sabbath day sanctified forever?

 

[tzadik]

I said:
God WILL make a new covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. It hasn't happened yet.
God WILL bring back those of the House of Israel and Judah to the land of their forefathers. It hasn't happened yet.
God WILL rebuilt the city of the Lord from the tower of Hanalel to the Corner Gate.
God WILL make it so that we no longer have to teach our neighbors telling them to Know the Lord.

And you replied with:

Do you read any of the Bible? or is it that you choose only to believe parts of it, including the quoted words of Jesus?

Do you disagree with all 4 of the above statements I made (Scripture makes)?

 

[tzadik]

My uncompromising stand follows the Scripture to a tee. I live by God's word.

1/3 or it? or all of it? (2 Tim 3:16-17)

 

[tzadik]

Just as expected you obviously don't believe v 6.

bugkiller

You proved me right. You read the entire post with a veil.

 

[tzadik]

Please quote any passage you think applies to Jesus issuing the 10 Cs.

Is Jesus God?

 

[tzadik]

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Mar_15:38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.


The whole Old Covenant system, the veil that separated the Holy of Holies from the people, the priesthood, the sacrifices, the Sabbath, the whole thing was ripped in half on the day of the Cross.
On that day the Messiah fulfilled the whole Old Covenant and made it "obsolete". Hebrews 8:13.

Acts 3:18-21 completely destroys the "everything is finished, when he said 'it is finished'" argument.

"But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time."

It's downright silly for any believer to think that Everything prophesied in the Scriptures has been fulfilled.
He is coming back to accomplish ALOT more in His second coming.

 

[tzadik]

If you think you can keep the law, you are deceiving yourself.
You are attempting to do something only Christ could do.

What you are telling me is that God was a cynical God who gave men commandments that He knew they wouldn't be able to keep and subsequently punished men for not keeping said commandments...?

I feel like some of the arguments against the Law of God and pro---whatever we deem worthy of our obedience can only be resolved through God's literal removal of blinders covering our eyes. There isn't much more I could do or say. Sometimes it's best for us to stop and think about what we're actually saying instead of trying to do everything in our powers just so that we don't have to be obedient to what God expects from us.

EVERY true believer CAN keep the Law. It's that simple. He gave us His commandments for our good. His commandments reflect His character; they are holy like He is Holy, they are Good like He is Good, they are Righteous, like he is Righteous.
He gave us His commandments to show us how to live a life that pleases Him.

Deuteronomy 30:10-14
10. if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul.
11. "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
12. "It is not in heaven, that you should say, `Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
13. "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, `Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
14. "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

 

[BABerean2]

Let's continue your line of thinking a bit further...

"If" Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 are talking about "Spiritual Israel" who is the "House of Judah"?

Peter addressed them also on the day of Pentecost...

Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:


Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:


Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

.

 

[BABerean2]

EVERY true believer CAN keep the Law. It's that simple.

Then you do not need Jesus Christ, because you can do what only He could ever do.

What is simple is that you are deceiving yourself, if you think you can do what only Christ could do.


Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Peter said neither he nor the fathers had not kept the law.


The Book of Galatians was written to stop what you are trying to advocate.

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[love2obey]

What you are telling me is that God was a cynical God who gave men commandments that He knew they wouldn't be able to keep and subsequently punished men for not keeping said commandments...?

I feel like some of the arguments against the Law of God and pro---whatever we deem worthy of our obedience can only be resolved through God's literal removal of blinders covering our eyes. There isn't much more I could do or say. Sometimes it's best for us to stop and think about what we're actually saying instead of trying to do everything in our powers just so that we don't have to be obedient to what God expects from us.

EVERY true believer CAN keep the Law. It's that simple. He gave us His commandments for our good. His commandments reflect His character; they are holy like He is Holy, they are Good like He is Good, they are Righteous, like he is Righteous.
He gave us His commandments to show us how to live a life that pleases Him.

Deuteronomy 30:10-14
10. if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul.
11. "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
12. "It is not in heaven, that you should say, `Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
13. "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, `Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
14. "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

Just to be clear on the subject, I do believe in keeping the law as a true believer of God's Word.
Now to make things clear, are you in anyway implying that by keeping the law we are saved and not by the blood of the Lamb
Or that by keeping the law, not sinning, we dont loose what we have by the grace of God in the blood of the Lamb ?

 

[tzadik]

Peter addressed them also on the day of Pentecost...

Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:


Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:


Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

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Peter talking to a specific people group has NOTHING to do with whether or not the completion and fulfillment of the New covenant has come to pass or not.
There are specific facts that the text mentions will need to take place for the new covenant to be fulfilled.

 

[tzadik]

Then you do not need Jesus Christ, because you can do what only He could ever do.

What is simple is that you are deceiving yourself, if you think you can do what only Christ could do.


Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Peter said neither he nor the fathers had not kept the law.


The Book of Galatians was written to stop what you are trying to advocate.

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You already played this card and I already answered it here but I'll include it below for your ease of reference. Still awaiting your counter.

According to your understanding of Acts 15 you think that anyone who encourages believers to be obedient to and follow the commandments of God are actually placing a yokes on necks.

Let’s play a game call, who’s lying.

Acts 15:10
“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?”

Was God lying when He clearly told us that His commandments are not too difficult for you or out of reach?
Deuteronomy 30:11-14
"For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
It is not in heaven, that you should say, `Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, `Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.”

Was God lying, when He clearly told us to rejoice in the Law of God calling it a delight?
Psalm 1:2
“But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night.”
Psalm 119:174
“I long for Your salvation, O LORD, And Your law is my delight.”

Was God lying when He clearly told us that His commandments are NOT burdensome?
1 John 5:3
“For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.”

Was God lying when He showed us THROUGHOUT the Scriptures that all the true believers (including the disciples’ fathers in Acts 15) in God lived a life of obedience and kept His commandments?
Abraham (Genesis 26:5), David (1 Kings 14:8, Psalm 119:60), Reubenites and Gadites (Joshua 22:1-3), Hezekiah (2 Kings 18:6), Paul (Acts 21:24, Acts 24:14), Zacharias and Elizabeth (Luke 1:6)

Was Paul lying when he told us that he delights and agrees with the Law of God with his inner being? (Romans 7:22)

Not to mention that Peter is talking to the same congregation in verse 10 of Acts 15 that was later referred to as being zealous for the Law of God in Acts 21:20
“And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law”

If none of the above people and God are lying, could you be misinterpreting or misunderstanding Peter’s statement in Acts 15:10?

 

[tzadik]

Then you do not need Jesus Christ, because you can do what only He could ever do.

Please show me ANYwhere in the Scriptures where God..

1. tells anyone that they are unable to keep His Commandments.
2. tells anyone that they should NOT even attempt to keep His commandments.
3. tells us that Jesus is the ONLY one who is able to keep God's commandments.

You are basically saying that God gave men a task that they could not do, repeatedly told them to do it, do it, do it, knowing full well they would never be able to do it, and then subsequently punished them over and over again for not doing it.
Not only is your line of thinking 1 million percent wrong, but it's actually a slap in the face to the Righteousness and Justice of God.

God's Law reflect His character. His Law is Holy. His Law is Just. His Law is Righteous. His Law is Truth. His Law is a gift given to those who are His. Stop using Jesus as a cop-out out of obedience.

 

[tzadik]

Just to be clear on the subject, I do believe in keeping the law as a true believer of God's Word.
Now to make things clear, are you in anyway implying that by keeping the law we are saved and not by the blood of the Lamb
Or that by keeping the law, not sinning, we dont loose what we have by the grace of God in the blood of the Lamb ?

Salvation is by grace through faith alone.
My obedient to God's commandments is not what saves me.

But now that we have been redeemed, born again of the Spirit and brought into God's Household, (similar to human adoption) we are to live according to the rules, instructions and guidelines of the Father.

 

[BABerean2]

Peter talking to a specific people group have NOTHING to do with whether or not the completion and fulfillment of the New covenant has come to pass or not.
There are specific facts that the text mentions will need to take place for the new covenant to be fulfilled.

Mat 26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Joh 19:30 When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, "It is finished," and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

(Heb_9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.)
(In the Greek the words for "testament" and "covenant" are the same.)

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. (KJV)
(The word "now" means it was in effect during the first century.)





Heb_8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: (This comes from Jeremiah chapter 31.)

Heb_8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
(This happened at the Cross of Calvary.)

Heb_12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


The Sinai covenant of bondage has already been made "obsolete" by the New Covenant, brought in by the death of Christ.


Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

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[tzadik]

Mat 26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.


Joh 19:30 When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, "It is finished," and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

(Heb_9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.)
(In the Greek the words for "testament" and "covenant" are the same.)

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. (KJV)
(The word "now" means it was in effect during the first century.)


Heb_8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: (This comes from Jeremiah chapter 31.)

There was no fault found with the Law of God or the Covenant that God made as they are both perfect and from God.
The fault was, is and will always be with sinful men who time and time again go against God's Words, Instructions and Covenants.
In the original covenant the people said "all that you have spoken we will do" (Exodus 24:7) and did not keep their word as a nation.

Heb_8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
(This happened at the Cross of Calvary.)

Hebrews 8 was written a while after Calvary and YET whatever "that which decayeth and waxeth old" is not yet vanished, but rather "ready to vanish away". This very verse disproves your theory that somehow the old covenant "passed" away at the cross. I am not even getting into the argument to prove to you what "that" in verse 13 refer to, but for the sake of following your argument...Years and years after the cross it has not yet vanished away...according to your interpretation of Hebrews 8:13.

We can certainly experience elements of the New Covenant at this time, but we are definitely not in fullness of the New Covenant.
It won't be completely fulfilled and "here" until He returns!

 

[love2obey]

Salvation is by grace through faith alone.
My obedient to God's commandments is not what saves me.

But now that we have been redeemed, born again of the Spirit and brought into God's Household, (similar to human adoption) we are to live according to the rules, instructions and guidelines of the Father.

So you have not said that one can be saved by the law, why are you being challenged as so?
dont bother to answer. It is a the norm of those who want to void the existence of the law of God that automatically they
interpret as if one has ever said that one can be saved by keeping the law. In the years that I have been involve with Adventist teaching, I have never heard anyone say that can be saved by keeping the law.
Yes, that it is important for our salvation to keep the law, to rebuke sin.
I read into some of the arguments against law keeping that it implies that we are not saved because of something God didnt do or has not done yet with us. As I know the law and the grace of God, their argument against law keeping totally shuts down the true definition of grace.

the law brings us to mind how low we have sank, how bad we have become. Once we sinned, there is nothing on our own that we can do that can change it. From then on, we can be the best of the best and doing all that the bible teaches us. If we dont accept Jesus as our savior, we will never be saved. Only by the grace of God thru the redeeming power in Jesus can we be saved from the condemnation of sin, death.

Enjoy your discussions

 

[BABerean2]

Hebrews 8 was written a while after Calvary and YET whatever "that which decayeth and waxeth old" is not yet vanished, but rather "ready to vanish away". This very verse disproves your theory that somehow the old covenant "passed" away at the cross. I am not even getting into the argument to prove to you what "that" in verse 13 refer to, but for the sake of following your argument...Years and years after the cross it has not yet vanished away...according to your interpretation of Hebrews 8:13.

We can certainly experience elements of the New Covenant at this time, but we are definitely not in fullness of the New Covenant.
It won't be completely fulfilled and "here" until He returns!

It is remarkable how one part of a verse is sometimes chosen, but others are ignored.

Somehow, you ignored the words "now" and "is" in Hebrews 8:6.

You also ignored the words "he hath made" in Hebrews 8:13, but latch onto the words which you hope will preserve your viewpoint. The Old covenant temple did vanish away in 70 AD, just as Christ said it would.


Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Somehow you are also able to ignore Paul's reference to the Sinai covenant of bondage in Galatians chapter 4...