Gal 4 "under the Law" vs "under Grace" in Romans 6 and not sinning

[bugkiller]

So you cannot answer the questions? A simple yes or no will do.

Did God already make a new covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah?

Yes, but not only are both houses of Israel included, so is the rest of the world that will believe. Just read Acts.

Did God already put His Law within the House of Israel and the House of Judah?

Why yes and Amen to that. The problem is you fail to recognize that it isn't the same covenant given to Israel according to Jeremiah.

Is there no longer a need for the "Great commission" and for us to teach our neighbor to Know the Lord?

That isn't included in the OC.

Does everyone from the House of Israel and the House of Judah now know the Lord?

In a sense yes. Do they all know/accept Him (Jesus) as Lord? No.

Is the city rebuilt for the Lord from the tower of Hananel to the Corner gate?

Is that part oft he NC?

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

So you cannot answer the questions? A simple yes or no will do.

Did God already make a new covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah?
Did God already put His Law within the House of Israel and the House of Judah?
Is there no longer a need for the "Great commission" and for us to teach our neighbor to Know the Lord?
Does everyone from the House of Israel and the House of Judah now know the Lord?

Yes - God made the New Covenant in the OT - Jer 31:31-33 and even Moses speaks of the Law of God "written on the heart" - where in fact the way that happens - is under the New Covenant.

Yes - The New Covenant is made with "the House of Israel".

Yes - we must teach

No - not all mankind know the Lord -either among Jews or gentiles.

Yet the Gospel is the New Covenant - and no other.

 

[bugkiller]

Yes - God made the New Covenant in the OT - Jer 31:31-33 and even Moses speaks of the Law of God "written on the heart" - where in fact the way that happens - is under the New Covenant.

Yes - The New Covenant is made with "the House of Israel".

Yes - we must teach

No - not all mankind know the Lord -either among Jews or gentiles.

Yet the Gospel is the New Covenant - and no other.

Great, then its not the law.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

The New Covenant (that some find so difficult to quote) is this -



Heb 8:6-10 Christ's New Covenant and His TEN Commandments at Sinai
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a New Covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

 

[bugkiller]

The New Covenant (that some find so difficult to quote) is this -



Heb 8:6-10 Christ's New Covenant and His TEN Commandments at Sinai

First of all Jesus didn't issue the 10 Cs. Read the Book of the Law.

6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. Better covenant and better promises is the same covenant given to Israel. Their first and old covenant was a covenant of law.

A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a New Covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Its to bad and very sad that you don't believe the above.

bugkiller[/quote]

 

[tzadik]

There's absolutely nothing in the Bible indicating the gentile Christian becomes an Israeli. Yeah I know you're going to try and spring Romans 2 and 11 on us. Be my guest. I've a ready response for that too.

That wasn't what I said and your assumptions are just that...assumptions.
I asked you who does Jeremiah 31 and Hebrew 8 tell us that the New Covenant will be made with?
Can you show me where/how you insert yourself into either of those houses?
Because last time I checked there was no "separate" new covenant made with only Gentiles, or really ANY covenants EVER made with only Gentiles. (other than the Rainbow one with Noah and with Abraham, the father of our faith)

Now that's about as half hearted good ole college try as I ever seen to bring the unsuspecting Christian under the law.

It's sad that your entire argument is based on your misinterpretation and misunderstanding of the terms "under the law" and "Law" in general as it pertains to the "NT".
Until you realize that the Law of God plays VERY different roles in the lives of Unbelievers vs. believers, you will forever spew hatred and disregard for the Holy, Perfect, Spiritual and True Law of God.

If a Jew wishes to continue in their ethnic heritage more power to them. However a devote Jew named Paul says "we are now delivered from the law." Should one believe him and the Scripture or should they believe you?

Once again you are missing the point.
It's the Scriptures that says that the Sabbath should be observed FOREVER throughout their generations.
Nothing ethnic about the Sabbath. It is Literally God's Holy Day. God's not Israel's.
God calls the Sabbath MY Holy day. and God tells the sons of Israel that they are to remember and keep HIS holy day sanctified FOREVER.

 

[tzadik]

So you think you can do better? Really? The Bible says no.

Please explain this verse to me.
Luke 1:5-6
In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.

 

[tzadik]

For those who accept Jesus as their Redeemer, absolutely yes

You can't just throw Christian terms around and expect them to magically "fulfill" clear literal prophecies that have not yet taken place.

God WILL make a new covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. It hasn't happened yet.
God WILL bring back those of the House of Israel and Judah to the land of their forefathers. It hasn't happened yet.
God WILL rebuilt the city of the Lord from the tower of Hanalel to the Corner Gate.
God WILL make it so that we no longer have to teach our neighbors telling them to Know the Lord.

I absolutely agree that God's redemptive sacrifice with the blood of the New Covenant kickstarted things, but by NO means has the New Covenant been fully accomplished. He's coming back for Part 2!

 

[tzadik]

My comment still stands.

Your uncompromising stand doesn't change the fact that Scriptures tell us that those who are Truly saved, will act as such, by living their lives according to God's Word.

 

[tzadik]

Paul uses the Greek word "nomos" referencing the law (Law of Moses or the Torah) in Rom 7:6 that we are now delivered from. Paul certainly isn't saying we're now delivered from the instruction of God.

I think it's time we put this silly argument to bed once and for all.
If Paul is actually saying that we as believers are delivered from the Law of God...


Romans 7

Why is Paul stating that it is this very same Law of God (that you claim he now has nothing to do with as a believer) that STILL tells him what is right and wrong?
(V.7) What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
Why would Paul call something that we have been delivered from holy, righteous and good. Why in the world would we need to be delivered from something that is Holy, Righteous and Good? Isn't that what we must strive for as belivers?
(V.12) So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Why would Paul make sure that people NOT misunderstand and think that it's God's holy Law that is the cause of death? Rather it is SIN. Not the Law of God that is Good!
(V.13) Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

Why would Paul tell us that the Law of God is Spiritual if we are to be delivered from it? Should we who have been born again of the Spirit cling to everything Spiritual of God?
(V.14) For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

Why would Paul tell us that he agrees with the Law of God if he is delivered from it? That's just plain silly. Why would he admit and confess once again that the Law of God is good?
(V.16) But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

Why would Paul Joyfully rejoice and agree with the Law of God if he was delivered from it?
(V.22) For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,

Why would Paul SERVE the Law of God if he was delivered from it? Case closed.
(V.25) Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

I think it's safe to say that Paul NEVER taught or believed or lived his life as if believers are delivered from the holy, perfect, righteous and Spiritual Law of God.

If you can't see that...especially when it's in the exact same passage...then...I don't know what else to say.
Hopefully others can see the fallacy in the "delivered from the Law of God" argument.

 

[tzadik]

First of all Jesus didn't issue the 10 Cs.

Another argument to be put to bed...

Who issued the 10 commandments? God.
Is Jesus God?

Or if the above question is too much of a trick question for you.
Does Jesus contradict or go against anything that God has said or done?
Does Jesus condone or condemn the 10 commandments?
Would Jesus teach that the 10 commandments are still applicable to believers or would He teach that those commandments from God are abolished (Matthew 5:17)?

 

[Bob S]

Another argument to be put to bed...

Who issued the 10 commandments? God.
Is Jesus God?

Or if the above question is too much of a trick question for you.
Does Jesus contradict or go against anything that God has said or done?
Does Jesus condone or condemn the 10 commandments?
Would Jesus teach that the 10 commandments are still applicable to believers or would He teach that those commandments from God are abolished (Matthew 5:17)?

He accomplished the law at the Cross. The law of love is the new command. It contains all the that will cause harm to God's children not just 5 commands. The 10 commandments doesn't even speak of loving one another. The 10 says nothing about hating one another. It doesn't say anything about treating others with respect. There are hundreds of ways we can mistreat our fellow man and the are all included in the law of love.

As far as the Sabbath command is concerned, it is a ritual command given to Israel. They were to remember God's delivering them out of bondage in Egypt and remember the Creator. Paul tells us the 10 were temporary laws given by God to Israel. They were temporary because Israel broke the rules of the covenant. That covenant ended at the Cross. I see you didn't include the remainder of Jesus thought in Matt 5:17-19. If you believe that Jesus didn't fulfill the law at the cross and it is now finished then you would be required to observe every tittle and jot of the law. Which is it friend?

 

[BABerean2]

Don't forget that this is again talking to the House of Israel and the House of Judah.
Are you telling me that in the house of Israel and the House of Judah, there is NO need to teach anyone about the Lord?

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


You are confusing Israel of the Flesh with Israel of the Promise...

.

 

[bugkiller]

That wasn't what I said and your assumptions are just that...assumptions.
I asked you who does Jeremiah 31 and Hebrew 8 tell us that the New Covenant will be made with?
Can you show me where/how you insert yourself into either of those houses?
Because last time I checked there was no "separate" new covenant made with only Gentiles, or really ANY covenants EVER made with only Gentiles. (other than the Rainbow one with Noah and with Abraham, the father of our faith)

If Jeremiah applies to Israeli only why are you trying to get gentiles into their covenant? You're wasting your time. The evidence from Acts of the Apostles is salvation is open to everyone without adhering to the law. The Gospels bear this out as well by even quoting Jesus.

It's sad that your entire argument is based on your misinterpretation and misunderstanding of the terms "under the law" and "Law" in general as it pertains to the "NT".

You have the opportunity to set me straight. Why haven't you used it?

Until you realize that the Law of God plays VERY different roles in the lives of Unbelievers vs. believers, you will forever spew hatred and disregard for the Holy, Perfect, Spiritual and True Law of God.

Aren't you reading my posts? I've shown this very thing quoting Scripture. BTW I don't hate the law.

Once again you are missing the point.
It's the Scriptures that says that the Sabbath should be observed FOREVER throughout their generations.

I fully agree its to be observed by Israeli through out their generations. That leave all gentiles out unless they comply with Ex 12:48.

Nothing ethnic about the Sabbath. It is Literally God's Holy Day. God's not Israel's.

This shows that either you haven't read the Book of the Law or simply don't believe it.

God calls the Sabbath MY Holy day. and God tells the sons of Israel that they are to remember and keep HIS holy day sanctified FOREVER.

You're wasting your time here.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Please explain this verse to me.
Luke 1:5-6
In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.

Right after you explain Ps 14:3; 53:3 and Rom 3:23.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

You can't just throw Christian terms around and expect them to magically "fulfill" clear literal prophecies that have not yet taken place.

God WILL make a new covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. It hasn't happened yet.
God WILL bring back those of the House of Israel and Judah to the land of their forefathers. It hasn't happened yet.
God WILL rebuilt the city of the Lord from the tower of Hanalel to the Corner Gate.
God WILL make it so that we no longer have to teach our neighbors telling them to Know the Lord.

I absolutely agree that God's redemptive sacrifice with the blood of the New Covenant kickstarted things, but by NO means has the New Covenant been fully accomplished. He's coming back for Part 2!

Do you read any of the Bible? or is it that you choose only to believe parts of it, including the quoted words of Jesus?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Your uncompromising stand doesn't change the fact that Scriptures tell us that those who are Truly saved, will act as such, by living their lives according to God's Word.

My uncompromising stand follows the Scripture to a tee. I live by God's word.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I think it's time we put this silly argument to bed once and for all.
If Paul is actually saying that we as believers are delivered from the Law of God...


Romans 7

Why is Paul stating that it is this very same Law of God (that you claim he now has nothing to do with as a believer) that STILL tells him what is right and wrong?
(V.7) What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
Why would Paul call something that we have been delivered from holy, righteous and good. Why in the world would we need to be delivered from something that is Holy, Righteous and Good? Isn't that what we must strive for as belivers?
(V.12) So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Why would Paul make sure that people NOT misunderstand and think that it's God's holy Law that is the cause of death? Rather it is SIN. Not the Law of God that is Good!
(V.13) Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

Why would Paul tell us that the Law of God is Spiritual if we are to be delivered from it? Should we who have been born again of the Spirit cling to everything Spiritual of God?
(V.14) For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

Why would Paul tell us that he agrees with the Law of God if he is delivered from it? That's just plain silly. Why would he admit and confess once again that the Law of God is good?
(V.16) But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

Why would Paul Joyfully rejoice and agree with the Law of God if he was delivered from it?
(V.22) For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,

Why would Paul SERVE the Law of God if he was delivered from it? Case closed.
(V.25) Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

I think it's safe to say that Paul NEVER taught or believed or lived his life as if believers are delivered from the holy, perfect, righteous and Spiritual Law of God.

If you can't see that...especially when it's in the exact same passage...then...I don't know what else to say.
Hopefully others can see the fallacy in the "delivered from the Law of God" argument.

Just as expected you obviously don't believe v 6.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Another argument to be put to bed...

Who issued the 10 commandments? God.
Is Jesus God?

Or if the above question is too much of a trick question for you.
Does Jesus contradict or go against anything that God has said or done?
Does Jesus condone or condemn the 10 commandments?
Would Jesus teach that the 10 commandments are still applicable to believers or would He teach that those commandments from God are abolished (Matthew 5:17)?

Please quote any passage you think applies to Jesus issuing the 10 Cs.

bugkiller

 

[BABerean2]

Would Jesus teach that the 10 commandments are still applicable to believers or would He teach that those commandments from God are abolished (Matthew 5:17)?

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Mar_15:38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.


The whole Old Covenant system, the veil that separated the Holy of Holies from the people, the priesthood, the sacrifices, the Sabbath, the whole thing was ripped in half on the day of the Cross.
On that day the Messiah fulfilled the whole Old Covenant and made it "obsolete". Hebrews 8:13.

If you think you can keep the law, you are deceiving yourself.
You are attempting to do something only Christ could do.


The Old Covenant / The New Covenant / the Sabbath