Free Will Doesn't Seem To Be Very Successful . . .

[Oneofhope]

Human free will is a miraculous gift from God to all mature humans, animals do not have free will and their choices are the result of instinct and environment, but humans have within them (made in God’s image) some limited ability to truly make some choices that are solely their choices. These choices are mental choices and may not actually happen and God might keep them from happening, but they are still human free will choices. All of these free will choices are allowed and limited by God, so humans can fulfill their earthly objective, but if a human decides to the point God knows for certain they would never accept His Love as charity, their free will can be taken from them. God has made a free will choice to Love humans, but this has nothing to do with what humans did, are doing or will do, but because God made the choice to Love, in spite of the way humans are. For us to obtain and use this type of Love, we have to have free will in this area. Godly type Love goes beyond logic, instinct, coercion, ability to learn or our ever being able to pay back.

You seem to be making the assumption that this sleep and hardening is permanent and all God’s fault.

Paul empathizes: “to this day” so that does not mean this hardening and sleep has to go on forever. Paul goes on to show this to be a temporary situation, which I pointed out in my post 28: You have to keep these verses in context since Paul will explain right after: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!... 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them….23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. …26…Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

The Jewish Christians in Rome are having a really hard time accepting the Gentile Christians without them first becoming Jews and all the other Jews hate the Gentiles. Yet, some Jews in Rome did figure out what God was doing and have accepted the Gentiles and these are “God’s chosen”, because they did accept without further help. That further help actually comes with the hardening of these other Jew’s hearts. Paul with miraculous knowledge of Jesus’ prophecies about the destruction of the temple, would realize how that will impact many Jews to seek help from Gentile Christians who are very willing to help them, in spite of the fact the Jews hate gentiles. It actually becomes an almost unbelievable Loving help that Gentiles would be offering to help Jews, so their hard hearts would actually help them to see Godly type Love in these Christian Gentiles (this is obviously, “Love your enemy” Love). Yet even with this offer of help some Jews might be so hardened as to blame God for the destruction of the temple, but that was not God’s intent in hardening them.

Thanks for sharing!

I don’t quite understand your definition of free will. I see it this way:

Free will is the uninhibited, free right to choose and do all things. There is no constraint or limitation to our thinking and decisions. Does that seem right to you?

You wrote:

“You seem to be making the assumption that this sleep and hardening is permanent and all God’s fault.”

Is God responsible? Well, yes. Scripture is abundantly clear, hence my copy and paste. Is it permanent? No, just as you noted this hardening will end with the proper number of Gentiles comes in. But seriously, we need to stop all of these rabbit hole discussions. Scripture is clear, that against the will of the Blessed Jews, their hearts were hardened by God, none other, and it was done for a Holy Purpose.

Hopefully, in the future we will tend to agree rather than oppose one another. This would make for a rather harmonious Christian Forum.

 

[Oneofhope]

Free will is a philosophical notion, not a Biblical notion. The Bible uses the term "voluntary."
Philosophically, free will is the power to make all moral choices.
Pelagius (British monk around 400 AD) asserted that man had a free will, on the assumption that the moral responsibility of man requires that man have a free will.
Biblically this is not so, for the Bible teaches that man is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34), that it is only those whom the Son makes free that are free (Jn 8:36; cf Jn 8:32, Ro 6:18, 22, 8:12 Gal 5:1).
Free will (self-power) was lost in the fall when man's nature became corrupted, enslaving him to sin so that he cannot do the good (Ro 7:18-19, 8:7).
Free will means the freedom (power) to do the good; I.e., obey God (Mk 12:29-31), to be sinless, as Adam had.
Man no longer has that power (Jn 15:5, Ro 5:6, 7:18, 8:7-8), which is the meaning of the "depravity" of man.


Keeping in mind that the spirit of slumber was God's judgment on their sin of their own accord, refusing on their own accord to see and refusing to hear the gospel, they being responsible for the sin of their fallen nature, just as we are when we lie, cheat and steal.
God punishes sin with like sin (Ro 1:22-28).

Free will is the unimpeded ability to think and make choices and decisions without any outside interference. If that definition is correct, then the entire Old Testament is a violation of human free will.

The reason for Israel's slumber is not in question. The issue is that they were placed into the sleep outside of their own choice and volition. Therefore, their free will was completely violated, and this would be a bad thing for those who believe in the doctrine. However, as I recognize that my life is completely controlled by the Lord, I thank Him for this, for if He did not rescue me as I begged and begged Him to do, then I would still be stuck in my old, limited mind, that focused on doing bad things . . . all the while, a musician in Worship team. I was a total fake, proven by my alone life and the things I used to do. I was controlled by the Devil and I couldn't stop the things I was doing. But when I was Powerfully Indwelt by the Holy Spirit, I was taken out of the captivity of the Devil, held specifically to do his evil will, and taken into the captivity of God who now holds me with the express Purpose of spreading the Message of God. And this is now my life. I spend anywhere from 10 to 16 hours each day hoping to advance the Kingdom of Christ.

I am not my own. I have been Purchased at a price. I was once controlled by a Sinful Nature, but am now controlled by a Divine Nature. All True Christians will identify with what I have written, for what I have written are all Holy Words and concepts taken straight out of the Bible. I do not speak Words of my own, but Words that are in our Holy Bible.

 

[Oneofhope]

We are guilded not controlled.

Okie Doke. You can disagree with me, but I am only quoting the Bible.

Romans 8:9 NLT - 9 But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)

We are either controlled by the Devil or by the Father. This is the basis for the Entire Bible. Babylon . . . captivity . . . hell . . . captivity . . . bondage . . . captivity . . . being set free. This is what the entire bible is about, being set free from the control of our captor . . . the Devil.

Isn't it incredible that our horrific pastors and teachers of today don't teach this? They disgust me.

 

[Oneofhope]

So the Bible is trashing me because I can't see into the future perfectly in order to make perfect decisions. Shouldn't the Bible take that up with the designer/creator?

Will you accept guidance by the Holy Spirit, given that you can't see into the future perfectly?

What if he isn't talking?

I'm terribly sorry, but I can't make heads or tails of what you're saying. Sorry.

 

[Fervent]

I never understand why anyone would argue against free will. If we don't have free will, then no one who believes(or doesn't believe) in free will has any say in the matter. So either we don't have the power to change our positions, and so we're just being moved along a pre-determined course or we have the power to reject the idea that we don't have free will. If I have that power, then I must reject the claim that I don't. And if I don't have that power, I cannot help but believe that I do.

 

[bling]

Thanks for sharing!

I don’t quite understand your definition of free will. I see it this way:

Free will is the uninhibited, free right to choose and do all things. There is no constraint or limitation to our thinking and decisions. Does that seem right to you?

No! We are not free to do “all things” and in-fact we can do very few things, but we can think about doing a lot of things and yet are limited in our even thinking about doing some things.

We only need “free will” decision making as it applies to fulfilling our earthly objective, so the rest can be controlled by instinct and environment.

You wrote:

“You seem to be making the assumption that this sleep and hardening is permanent and all God’s fault.”

Is God responsible? Well, yes. Scripture is abundantly clear, hence my copy and paste. Is it permanent? No, just as you noted this hardening will end with the proper number of Gentiles comes in. But seriously, we need to stop all of these rabbit hole discussions. Scripture is clear, that against the will of the Blessed Jews, their hearts were hardened by God, none other, and it was done for a Holy Purpose.

Hopefully, in the future we will tend to agree rather than oppose one another. This would make for a rather harmonious Christian Forum.

Have you seen the same thing that can soften one person’s heart can harden another person’s heart? Not all Jewish hearts were harden, in Rome, so could see the Love, fairness and equity of allowing the Gentiles to be saved without first becoming Jews, but most of the other Jews in Rome saw this as blaspheme, even though they themselves could not follow the Law, they want God to hold the Gentiles to following the Old Law. This is not really an allowance by God, but just part of His being just, which most Jews could not accept at this time so their hearts were harden by God’s just Loving behavior.

In one respect than God did harden the hearts of the Jews, but in another respect the Jew’s pride, intolerance, lack of Love and poor understanding of God caused their hearts to harden by God’s Loving action.

It is still true that this sleep and heart hardening was temporary and would help the Jews in accepting God’s charity through Gentiles in the future.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Okie Doke. You can disagree with me, but I am only quoting the Bible.

Romans 8:9 NLT - 9 But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)

We are either controlled by the Devil or by the Father. This is the basis for the Entire Bible. Babylon . . . captivity . . . hell . . . captivity . . . bondage . . . captivity . . . being set free. This is what the entire bible is about, being set free from the control of our captor . . . the Devil.

Isn't it incredible that our horrific pastors and teachers of today don't teach this? They disgust me.

The NLT is a bad translation. Here is an accurate one KJV.
" But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
A whole different meaning.

 

[BobRyan]

I don’t quite understand your definition of free will. I see it this way:

Free will is the uninhibited, free right to choose and do all things. There is no constraint or limitation to our thinking and decisions. Does that seem right to you?

Free will in the context of salvation and the gospel - simply means that mankind has been given the ability to choose rather than blocked from doing so. The fact that God provides that ability via His own sovereign choice so supernaturally "draw ALL mankind unto Him" John 12:32 does not negate that freedom -- rather it ensures it.

 

[BobRyan]

I never understand why anyone would argue against free will. If we don't have free will, then no one who believes(or doesn't believe) in free will has any say in the matter.

What is more the entire plan of salvation and fall of both angels and mankind was for nothing.

Because without free will - God easily should have dictated that no angel in heaven ever fall.
God easily should have ordained that no human would ever choose to eat of the forbidden tree.

Saving God a boat load of pain and suffering on the cross.
Saving 1/3 of the angels of heaven
Saving mankind 1000's of years of pain and suffering not to mention a huge chunk of humanity case into the Rev 20 lake of fire.

"Responsibility" is by definition "the ability" to "respond"

"Culpability" is merely "subject to blame" or "the one that gets blamed".

Calvinism give humanity culpability without responsibility - then calls it "responsibility anyway"

 

[Oneofhope]

No!

LOL . . . ok.

 

[Oneofhope]

The NLT is a bad translation. Here is an accurate one KJV.
" But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
A whole different meaning.

I'm reading the NLT and KJV as the same. Are you aware that we are talking about the core of the Bible?

2 Timothy 2:25-26 NLT - 25 Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people's hearts, and they will learn the truth. 26 Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil's trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants.

Do you relate to the above Scripture? Have you been released from the captivity of the Devil? Anyone who has been released from prison, knows it. Conclusively. Do you remember being taken from the captivity of Satan and being brought into the captivity of God?

2 Corinthians 2:14 NLT - 14 But thank God! He has made us his captives and continues to lead us along in Christ's triumphal procession. Now he uses us to spread the knowledge of Christ everywhere, like a sweet perfume."

If you don't relate to the above Scriptures . . . I am so sorry.

 

[Oneofhope]

Free will in the context of salvation and the gospel - simply means that mankind has been given the ability to choose rather than blocked from doing so. The fact that God provides that ability via His own sovereign choice so supernaturally "draw ALL mankind unto Him" John 12:32 does not negate that freedom -- rather it ensures it.

Really? I don't get that feeling from the Bible. I see nothing but control, control, control. This is what the Bible is about, to go from the control of Satan to the control of God.

From the King James Bible Dictionary:

FREE WILL
"The power of directing our own actions without restraint by necessity or fate."

The above definition of free will is not a part of the Eternal Plan of God. Yes, God's Eternal Plan . . . not ours.

Proverbs 20:24 NLT - "The LORD directs our steps, so why try to understand everything along the way?"

 

[Oneofhope]

I never understand why anyone would argue against free will.

First, it is against the context of the entire Bible. Have you studied the entire Bible looking to answer this question of free will? Word for word? Phrase by phrase? If not, you really can't offer an opinion. This would be like someone reading half the book of "Tom Sawyer" and claiming to understand what it is about.

 

[Oneofhope]

What is the Purpose of Jesus in the below Scriptures? Who is brave enough to answer it honestly?

John 9:39-41 NLT - "Then Jesus told him, "I entered this world to render judgment--to give sight to the blind and to show those who think they see that they are blind." Some Pharisees who were standing nearby heard him and asked, "Are you saying we're blind?" "If you were blind, you wouldn't be guilty," Jesus replied. "But you remain guilty because you claim you can see."

Do we understand the Davidic Covenant?

Ezekiel 36:25-27 NLT - "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. Your filth will be washed away, and you will no longer worship idols. And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart. And I will put my Spirit in you so that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations."

Seriously. Do we not understand what our Bible is about? The core context of the Bible revolves around the Elect being set free from Captivity. The entire Bible focuses on this point. Why does the Flock not know these things? Is it because our horrible pastors and teachers of this day are too busy talking about other nonsense? Of course . . . no one is teaching the Story of God in our day . . . and what is scary, is that God is silent about this. His silence won't last much longer. The church is like a ghost . . . it's here but it's not. The church has no Power. No influence. No presence. Why? Because we have been lied to about what the actual Gospel of Jesus Christ is. We are so far off base it is stunning. The church of today no more understands Circumcision than do our Blessed Jewish Brothers and Sisters.

1 John 5:19 NLT - "We know that we are children of God and that the world around us is under the control of the evil one."

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan
said:

Free will in the context of salvation and the gospel - simply means that mankind has been given the ability to choose rather than blocked from doing so. The fact that God provides that ability via His own sovereign choice so supernaturally "draw ALL mankind unto Him" John 12:32 does not negate that freedom -- rather it ensures it.

I don't get that feeling from the Bible. I see nothing but control, control, control.

really?

By contrast

"how often I wanted to spare.. but you would not" Matt 23.
Is 5:4 "what more was there to do than that which I have done - why then when I expected good -- did it produce bad?"
John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

Your claim that the Bible only presents God in "control, control, control" does not survive even that tiny sampling to the contrary.

And far from Satan "having absolute control" -

John 12:32 shows us that God sovereignly chooses to supernaturally "draw ALL MANKIND to Himself" in direct opposition to Satan's work.

The notion that God's supernatural drawing of man is "insufficient" to get past the all-controlling-power of Satan such that man "has choice" is rejected EVEN by Calvinists who insist in John 6 that the "drawing" of God "is sufficient" to enable all the choice that depravity disables.

God's supernatural work in sending Christ, giving scripture, sending the Holy Spirit to "convict the WORLD" of sin and righteousness and judgment (not just the elect) - is a "sufficient work" that in the supernatural drawing power of God - enables that choice.

Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price. ​

​

Rev 3: 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.​

​

That is not a form of marketeering over-stated hyperbole , it is not exaggeration, it is not overstating the generosity of God or the reality of acceptance. ​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. ​

 

[Oneofhope]

really?

Yes. I have scoured the Bible multiple times, word for word, phrase by phrase, thought by thought looking for all passages that put free will into question. While I was searching for those passages, I also noted all that make it appear that humans choose their fate. So, I acknowledge each of them. I am aware of any and all passages that you might offer to me. I accept them all. I also accept all passages that prove the Sovereignty and control over all things. What I offer, in contrast, is a way of harmonizing them all.

1) Are you Biblically aware of all passages that indicate that free will is not a reality?
2) Have you found a way to harmonize all passages to make them all clear and understandable according to one, primary context? Please share . . .

 

[bling]

LOL . . . ok.

I have read and studied all passages suggesting not supporting the idea of humans having free will and have no problem reconciling them with the fact adult humans do have limited free will at least for some time period in their life.

Like your Ro. 11: 7-8 that was a temporary hardening and sleep by God to later help some Jews to be humble and accept God’s Love.

Some of these scriptures show God controlling people after they reach the point of never freely choosing to accept God’s help, others show them refusing God’s softening and thus allowing the hearts to be further hardened.

God chose from the beginning of time to accept those who accepted Him.

When a Christian moves away from God it is not God’s fault, since humans still have and need free will and can leave (like a prodigal son left, to later return or not return.)

Your thread question is: Free Will Doesn't Seem To Be Very Successful? Yet it is totally, successful in accomplishing what it needs to accomplish, is logical and to be expected that self centered humans who do not like to humble themselves to accept charity and who value the immediate perceived pleasures of sin, thus not want to accept God help. So, if man does not have free will, why would God not program all humans to accept His Love/help? How cruel is this God you are imagining?

 

[Clare73]

So the Bible is trashing me because I can't see into the future perfectly in order to make perfect decisions.

The Bible is "trashing" you
1) like I trash a rattlesnake. . .because its nature makes it my enemy,
2) because of your own sin against God's law (unless you are perfect, and you are not),
3) because, as you are evidencing, you do not believe nor submit to it.

 

[Oneofhope]

Like your Ro. 11: 7-8 that was a temporary hardening and sleep by God to later help some Jews to be humble and accept God’s Love.

The length of duration that God controlled their range of thinking isn't the issue. The issue is that God controlled the scope and range of their thinking.

Free will = null and void. At least for those people and at that time.

What about the group of people clearly defined below?

2 Timothy 2:25-26 NLT - "Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people's hearts, and they will learn the truth. Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil's trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants."

All of the humans held captive by Satan with the Purpose of their obeying him, how could they possibly have free will?

It's so unbelievable that we have these conversations. lol This is stuff for kindergartners.

 

[Clare73]

Thanks for sharing!
I don’t quite understand your definition of free will. I see it this way:
Free will is the uninhibited, free right to choose and do all things. There is no constraint or limitation to our thinking and decisions. Does that seem right to you?

You wrote: “You seem to be making the assumption that this sleep and hardening is permanent and all God’s fault.”
Is God responsible? Well, yes. Scripture is abundantly clear, hence my copy and paste. Is it permanent? No, just as you noted this hardening will end with the proper number of Gentiles comes in. But seriously, we need to stop all of these rabbit hole discussions. Scripture is clear, that against the will of the Blessed Jews, their hearts were hardened by God, none other, and it was done for a Holy Purpose.

Scripture is clear that God judged their already hard, unbelieving-in-their-Messiah hearts with even more hardness and unbelief, judging sin with more sin.
Scripture is clear that they are under God's judgment because of their sin of unbelief and rejection of their own Messiah (Ro 11:17).

Hopefully, in the future we will tend to agree rather than oppose one another. This would make for a rather harmonious Christian Forum.

Keeping in mind that love rejoices with the truth (God's word; i.e., Ro 11:17, 23, "IF"--not 'when'--they do not persist in unbelief") rather than agreement with untruth.