Florida ‘effectively’ bans Advanced Placement Psychology course due to curriculum's discussion of gender and sexual orientation

[A2SG]

Yes it does because they haven't found the evidence yet. They still are speculating there might be, but they haven't found it.

And yet, they have found it. It doesn't prove anything, of course, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Why do I have to keep pointing this out?

Your dodging the question. How do you know you are a man? Do you feel like one? What's a man feel like?

Again, I feel like me. This isn't a dodge, it's the only way I can answer the question.

Now...tell me, how does someone else know what their gender is? What do they feel?

Can you know?

You see the problem? The claim is they feel like a woman. It's not that they feel like themselves as you claim. They feel like a woman when they are a man. You don't seem to know what a man feels like yet you can claim they know what a woman feels like?

I made no such claim. They made it. If you want to know how they came to that conclusion, ASK THEM.

Wait....we did this already. Did you read their accounts and try to understand where they were coming from, or did you just dismiss them?

There is ZERO research to support such an assertion.

Wrong.

You are talking visual cues only. Biology is not just visual cues. Yes laymen can look at someone and recognize whether someone is a man or woman most of the time. But if you are going to claim you ARE a woman then you need to have the biology of a woman and not just the looks.

Not if you're talking about your identity. Identity isn't based exclusively on biology.

You haven't heard me say this so I'm am going to clarify something. If a person is so dedicated to this process of being as close to a woman as the possibly could get, which includes hormone therapy and full surgical procedures to transform their entire body so no one can tell them apart from a woman without a DNA sample or full body scan etc. Then fine call yourself a woman I won't argue with you cause I would have no clue and either would anyone else. But please note you are still not a woman. You are just wearing a very good costume.

So, she'd only be a "woman" if she gets your personal stamp of approval?

Um....why would she care what you think?

That's not the point. The point is there isn't any evidence that one can feel they are the opposite sex.

There's plenty of evidence. The problem is it comes from people who talk about their own experiences. You have to listen to them, if you truly want to understand what they're going through.

Or you can just dismiss them and say their experiences are wrong. Whatever works for you.

We can show through biology that if you truly believe you are the opposite sex that you have a mental illness that needs treatment.

Again, identity isn't biology.

They haven't found that it does. Still no evidence.

They haven't found that it doesn't, so the evidence still exists. That's how science works...they find evidence of some connection, they do more research to see if the connection can be disproven. If it can't, then it becomes a theory.

You have yet to disprove the idea that gender identity may have causes related to hormonal development and brain chemistry. Dismissing the existence of the links researchers have found just because there isn't rock solid definitive proof of it isn't disproving it.

Hmmm.... Still no evidence. Only a belief. I can hypothesize about anything. That doesn't mean a thing.

Belief based on research into things like brain chemistry.

You claimed I would be wrong to do so based upon biological.factors.

Nope. I never said one word about how you identify yourself. I did acknowledge that what species you are is an objective fact, but I never made a single claim about your identity or what you identify as.

Good for you. I do.

You can prove someone's identity isn't what they think it is? Really?

It's a wonder you don't have a Nobel by now.

That's the same thing. Especially when you said biology does apply to everything else.

It doesn't apply to identity. And I've been saying that all along.

And they were wrong weren't they.

People can be wrong about any number of things. That doesn't mean they always are.

I have. And my conversation isn't with them. It's with you.

I really don't think you have. And I can only tell you so much...I'm not trans, so I cannot tell you how a trans person feels. I've spoken to trans people, listened to their experiences, and I try to be empathetic...but I can't tell you how they feel. Only they can tell you that.

That's not an answer. I did mention children and asked you about them. And you are dodging the question . Why?

Why do you want to bring children into this? I have no interest in discussing children and transgender issues.

What are they identifying as?

I don't know. Ask them.

It depends. Those that examine the research have shown it to be invalid.

I haven't yet seen anyone invalidate the research or disprove it, just come to a different conclusion. Nothing wrong with that, it's how science works.

There's research out there that says it doesn't help.

Okay. That's evidence too. Evidence can lead to different conclusions sometimes.

Lol. I missed the crucial steps? Are you aware that affirmative care doesn't ask those questions? Doesn't explore?

Yeah, it does. It's called therapy.

No what they do is believe them and say, "yup I believe you. That'll be $50".

Uh, no. Only the Dr. Nick of psychiatrists would do that.

As opposed to say, real therapy.

So you don't thing anyone in the field of gender affirming care practices "real" therapy?

Tell me, how much experience do you have in the field? How many therapists, or patients, have you talked to?

I'm betting I know the number....and it ain't high.

Medical advancements and understanding is not altering society like I'm talking about.

Society is altered in any number of ways. It happens all the time.

Please re-read my post and address that instead of not addressing it. Understanding medical treatments and issues is not the same thing as altering society.

With different medical treatments comes different ways society treats those with mental illnesses. And thus, society is altered.

They are basing their actions on bad research, biased research and faulty research. Others are basing it on making a buck.

ALL of the research done on gender and transgender issues is bad, biased or faulty? Every single bit of it, without exception? Man, it must have taken several decades to pore through all the research done in the field, and conduct countless experiments to invalidate and disprove every single bit of it! Did you get any sleep at all??

So now you are admitting that transgenderism is a system based on faith? Is it a religion now?

Nope, a fact that will be evident in your next post when you fail to quote me saying any such thing.

You were talking about civil rights law and how it covers those who act voluntarily, wanna try to explain the gymnastics that got you to that conclusion?

I am and you don't want to. Why is that?

Same reason I'm not bringing up my feelings about J. J. Abrams' version of Star Trek.

And I provided you a link on how that came about and what the AAP has done to squash members who disagree with it. They are an organization largely funded by big pharma who pushes the drugs on children. You should listen to the facts on this case. They have turned a blind eye to the systematic review of the research the doctor who pushed this into the AAP provided to them. Unlike other countries who did and discovered that all of it was bad research and shouldn't be used. Why is the AAP so against the systematic review? You should be asking the question.

If you have a problem with the AAP, take it up with them. I don't represent them, nor can I speak for them.

Why are dodging the question about kids?

Who's a better Captain Kirk, William Shatner or Chris Pine? I say Pine is okay, and a fine actor...but no one can equal Shatner.

-- A2SG, call me a traditionalist......

 

[A2SG]

The research shows otherwise.

Reduction in Mental Health Treatment Utilization Among Transgender Individuals After Gender-Affirming Surgeries: A Total Population Study

Reading that sure make you think that gender affirming medical intervention helps people have better mental health outcomes. Note that the study shows that hormonal treatment alone doesn't help. But they seem to claim that the surgical treatments do.

However they authors have posted a correction to their studies when asked by researchers to review their findings because there were a lot of questions regarding their conclusions that didn't seem to match the study. So they issued a correction.

Psychiatry Online

Upon request, the authors reanalyzed the data to compare outcomes between individuals diagnosed with gender incongruence who had received gender-affirming surgical treatments and those diagnosed with gender incongruence who had not. While this comparison was performed retrospectively and was not part of the original research question given that several other factors may differ between the groups, the results demonstrated no advantage of surgery in relation to subsequent mood or anxiety disorder-related health care visits or prescriptions or hospitalizations following suicide attempts in that comparison.

In fact, in their correction to the original study, the authors point out that on one score—treatment for anxiety disorders—patients who had sex-reassignment surgeries did worse than those who did not:

individuals diagnosed with gender incongruence who had received gender-affirming surgery were more likely to be treated for anxiety disorders compared with individuals diagnosed with gender incongruence who had not received gender-affirming surgery.

Also their original conclusions were primarily based upon three people.

Here’s how the Guardian summarized the results of a review of “more than 100 follow-up studies of post-operative transsexuals” by Birmingham University’s Aggressive Research Intelligence Facility (Arif):

Arif, which conducts reviews of healthcare treatments for the NHS, concludes that none of the studies provides conclusive evidence that gender reassignment is beneficial for patients. It found that most research was poorly designed, which skewed the results in favour of physically changing sex. There was no evaluation of whether other treatments, such as long-term counselling, might help transsexuals, or whether their gender confusion might lessen over time.

“There is huge uncertainty over whether changing someone’s sex is a good or a bad thing,” said Chris Hyde, the director of Arif. Even if doctors are careful to perform these procedures only on “appropriate patients,” Hyde continued, “there’s still a large number of people who have the surgery but remain traumatized—often to the point of committing suicide.”

Of particular concern are the people these studies “lost track of.” As the Guardian noted, “the results of many gender reassignment studies are unsound because researchers lost track of more than half of the participants.”

Bottom line is there is no research that actually shows that there is a benefit to the person to undergo medicalized treatment for their mental health problem..

Instead of prioritizing medical Intervention to try and make the body match the mental illness we should be working to help the patients mental state match the body.

I will review this in greater detail as time allows...but my initial impression is that there is evidence on both sides as to the effectiveness of gender reassignment surgery, but that therapy as a first method of treatment needs to be prioritized.

I completely agree with that assessment.

-- A2SG, not sure if there is a point beyond that, but feel free to tell me if there is....

 

[rjs330]

And yet, they have found it. It doesn't prove anything, of course, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Why do I have to keep pointing this out?

You keep trying because there isn't any you unable to show it.

Again, I feel like me. This isn't a dodge, it's the only way I can answer the question.

Now...tell me, how does someone else know what their gender is? What do they feel?

Can you know?

There you go. Starting to get it now?

Wait....we did this already. Did you read their accounts and try to understand where they were coming from, or did you just dismiss them?

I read them. And I felt really bad for them. They are suffering immensely from the mental health issue. If only they could get the mental help they need.

Not if you're talking about your identity. Identity isn't based exclusively on biology.

You stated different at one point. That I wasn't a black female cause that was based on a biological fact.

So, she'd only be a "woman" if she gets your personal stamp of approval?

I believe I said the person still wouldn't be a woman. Because that's based on biology not looks.

Why do you want to bring children into this? I have no interest in discussing children and transgender issues.

Why not?

Yeah, it does. It's called therapy.

Yes except they aren't getting therapy. That's the point. They are getting a referral. That's not therapy. Therapy lasts much longer than 20-40 minutes.

Uh, no. Only the Dr. Nick of psychiatrists would do that.

Except it happens all the time.

So you don't thing anyone in the field of gender affirming care practices "real" therapy?

Tell me, how much experience do you have in the field? How many therapists, or patients, have you talked to?

Perhaps you should read more on this affirmative therapy business. It should answer the questions for you. If you want I could link to therapists who do work in the field and they could tell you all about it. Would you listen to them?

ALL of the research done on gender and transgender issues is bad, biased or faulty? Every single bit of it, without exception? Man, it must have taken several decades to pore through all the research done in the field, and conduct countless experiments to invalidate and disprove every single bit of it! Did you get any sleep at all??

Yes it's all bad. Did you fail to read the BMJ article? I could link to more that discuss the bad, faulty and biased research?

Nope, a fact that will be evident in your next post when you fail to quote me saying any such thing.

You were talking about civil rights law and how it covers those who act voluntarily, wanna try to explain the gymnastics that got you to that conclusion?

I think you are the one that tried to liken it to religion.

Did you somehow believe voluntarily undergoing medical transitioning is the same thing as religion?

Same reason I'm not bringing up my feelings about J. J. Abrams' version of Star Trek.

Ah... I'm beginning to get suspicious here of your position that it's not a pure as you make it out to be.

If you have a problem with the AAP, take it up with them. I don't represent them, nor can I speak for them.

I don't need to. Their members are doing that.

I will review this in greater detail as time allows...but my initial impression is that there is evidence on both sides as to the effectiveness of gender reassignment surgery, but that therapy as a first method of treatment needs to be prioritized.

I completely agree with that assessment.

-- A2SG, not sure if there is a point beyond that, but feel free to tell me if there is....

Only that there isn't. And we would agree on the fact that therapy should be done first. Problem is it isn't being done. Affirmative therapy is being done on the grand scale. Deep therapy isn't being done. Well not in the US or Canada anyway.

But do to the lack of evidence that you claim there is , other countries DO recognize the lack of evidence and the very poor research that is faulty, bad and biased. Systematic reviews have found it to be so.

The NHS Ends the "Gender-Affirmative Care Model" for Youth in England

Following extensive stakeholder engagement and a systematic review of evidence, England’s National Health Service (NHS) has issued new draft guidance for the treatment of gender dysphoria in minors, which sharply deviates from the “gender-affirming” approach. The previous presumption that gender...

segm.org

 

[A2SG]

You keep trying because there isn't any you unable to show it.

I've shown it, you've dismissed it because it doesn't prove it conclusively. Evidence isn't proof.

There you go. Starting to get it now?

Yup. One's identity is subjective, and not something anyone else can say they're wrong about. Like when you claim that someone who identifies as a woman despite her genitalia is wrong about her identity.

I've gotten that all along, dude.

I read them. And I felt really bad for them. They are suffering immensely from the mental health issue. If only they could get the mental help they need.

Yup, as I said, you've dismissed their experiences because they don't match your own. Shall I quote Hamlet again?

You stated different at one point. That I wasn't a black female cause that was based on a biological fact.

I said your ethnicity and your skin color is objective. I didn't say anything about your identity.

I believe I said the person still wouldn't be a woman. Because that's based on biology not looks.

Again, identity and biology are not the same thing.

Why not?

Why?

Yes except they aren't getting therapy. That's the point. They are getting a referral. That's not therapy. Therapy lasts much longer than 20-40 minutes.

You're making blanket assumptions about a wide field here. While I'm sure some patients haven't gotten as much therapy as they may need, it's not a universal truth that NONE do. Therapy is the recommended first step in every model of gender affirming care, according to every source I've checked. And, for those trans people I've spoken to who have gone through this process, whatever their outcome, every one has said they've undergone usually years of therapy, and most continue to.

Except it happens all the time.

Can't say it doesn't happen sometimes. But that is not the recommended method of care, according to every medical professional I've heard from.

Perhaps you should read more on this affirmative therapy business. It should answer the questions for you. If you want I could link to therapists who do work in the field and they could tell you all about it. Would you listen to them?

I have, and do.

Yes it's all bad. Did you fail to read the BMJ article? I could link to more that discuss the bad, faulty and biased research?

If you feel every bit of research in the field has been definitively disproven and invalided, feel free to post that proof. I've only seen research that reached different conclusions, not a complete repudiation of all other research.

I'll fully admit that we don't know everything about gender identity and it's possible biological links, but that is a far cry from saying EVERYTHING we have learned about it to date is entirely wrong. If you want to substantiate that claim, you've got a lot more work ahead of you.

I think you are the one that tried to liken it to religion.

Nope. And you'll find that out in your next post when you fail to quote me saying that.

Did you somehow believe voluntarily undergoing medical transitioning is the same thing as religion?

Nope, which is why I did not say that.

Ah... I'm beginning to get suspicious here of your position that it's not a pure as you make it out to be.

Not at all. I don't think Abrams understands Star Trek very well at all. Which is why the third Kelvin movie was the better one, because Simon Pegg, who is a fan, had a large role in writing it.

I don't need to. Their members are doing that.

All righty then.

Only that there isn't. And we would agree on the fact that therapy should be done first. Problem is it isn't being done. Affirmative therapy is being done on the grand scale. Deep therapy isn't being done. Well not in the US or Canada anyway.

I think you'll find that many, if not most, patients who undergo gender affirming care have already been in therapy prior to seeking further care. But I won't disagree that therapy is a vitally important part of that care, if that's all you mean to say here.

But do to the lack of evidence that you claim there is , other countries DO recognize the lack of evidence and the very poor research that is faulty, bad and biased. Systematic reviews have found it to be so.

The NHS Ends the "Gender-Affirmative Care Model" for Youth in England

Following extensive stakeholder engagement and a systematic review of evidence, England’s National Health Service (NHS) has issued new draft guidance for the treatment of gender dysphoria in minors, which sharply deviates from the “gender-affirming” approach. The previous presumption that gender...

segm.org

Disagreeing with an interpretation of evidence isn't the same as disproving it or invalidating it.

-- A2SG, or causing it to vanish in a puff of logic.....

 

[RileyG]

I don't think anything in education should be banned.

 

[rjs330]

I've shown it, you've dismissed it because it doesn't prove it conclusively. Evidence isn't proof.

I've all ready addressed this. And you went on to claim hypothesis was evidence and I showed you it wasn't. So we can move on from this line of argument from you. You are talking in circles.

Yup. One's identity is subjective, and not something anyone else can say they're wrong about. Like when you claim that someone who identifies as a woman despite her genitalia is wrong about her identity.

Nope, you were so close. If I identify as a black woman should everyone treat me like a black woman? Should I have all the rights of a black woman?

said your ethnicity and your skin color is objective. I didn't say anything about your identity.

But that's my identity and my identity is subjective. Therefore you should not say that it's based on ethnicity. Everything is irrelevant where identity is concerned because is subjective.

Yup, as I said, you've dismissed their experiences because they don't match your own. Shall I quote Hamlet again?

I accept their experiences as a result of a mental health disorder. I don't need anything else because that's what's going on.

Hamlet? That great psychiatrist. I didn't know.

Again, identity and biology are not the same thing.

Your gender identity is based on biology.

Why?

You first.

You're making blanket assumptions about a wide field here. While I'm sure some patients haven't gotten as much therapy as they may need, it's not a universal truth that NONE do. Therapy is the recommended first step in every model of gender affirming care, according to every source I've checked. And, for those trans people I've spoken to who have gone through this process, whatever their outcome, every one has said they've undergone usually years of therapy, and most continue to.

Nope, please refer to my previous posts of actual therapists, articles and the Swedish review of it. I didn't say NONE do. I'm saying the vast majority do and it's a very small minority that got therapy. You might do some research on the Tavistock issue as well. You will discover that what I'm saying is true. If you fail to acknowledge what the field itself has acknowledged then I'm afraid you are just an idealogue.

you feel every bit of research in the field has been definitively disproven and invalided, feel free to post that proof. I've only seen research that reached different conclusions, not a complete repudiation of all other research.

Did you fail to read the British Medical Journal?

Here it is again.

Gender dysphoria in young people is rising—and so is professional disagreement

More children and adolescents are identifying as transgender and are being offered medical treatment, especially in the US—but some providers and European authorities are urging caution because of a lack of strong evidence. Jennifer Block reports Last October the American Academy of Pediatrics...

www.bmj.com

Here's more.

What We Don’t Know: Does Gender Transition Improve the Lives of People with Gender Dysphoria?

‘Trust the Experts’ Is Not Enough

Puberty Blockers and Suicidality in Adolescents Suffering from Gender Dysphoria

Nice Evidence Reviews – Cass Review

cass.independent-review.uk

think you'll find that many, if not most, patients who undergo gender affirming care have already been in therapy prior to seeking further care. But I won't disagree that therapy is a vitally important part of that care, if that's all you mean to say here.

No they are not receiving it he therapy and you are being deceived. Even Wpath doesn't require it. Gender clinics don't require it. Doctors don't require it. And I've proven that to you. Here's more. Did you even watch the videos? Here's more.

(HRT) Hormone Letters and Informed Consent for the Transgender Community - Katie Leikam

I'm beginning to think you are one of those who's an ideologue and no amount of evidence, (even by researchers and other countries etc) showing that

1. The studies involving transgender issues are horrible and completely untrustworthy
2. That transgender people are not receiving therapy to discover the problems and why they might feel they are transgendered and what they can do.
3. That gender is based on sex.

Instead you will listen to the activists who base all their information on the faulty and poor research.

I think this conversation is over. If you read all that I have provided and listen to the videos and still believe the same way, then there is nothing more to say.

Have you read everything, clicked all the links contained in the articles? Have you listened to all the videos?

 

[A2SG]

I've all ready addressed this. And you went on to claim hypothesis was evidence and I showed you it wasn't. So we can move on from this line of argument from you. You are talking in circles.

I said a hypothesis CAN be evidence. A lot of things can be, if they provide support for a conclusion. That doesn't mean it proves the conclusion, or that it may not lead in other directions as well.

Nope, you were so close. If I identify as a black woman should everyone treat me like a black woman?

That'd be up to them, wouldn't it?

Should I have all the rights of a black woman?

What rights do black women have that you do not?

But that's my identity and my identity is subjective.

If you say so.

Therefore you should not say that it's based on ethnicity.

I never said your identity is based on your ethnicity.

Everything is irrelevant where identity is concerned because is subjective.

Yes, your identity is subjective...but that doesn't mean everything is irrelevant. You decide what's relevant or not. Sometimes, it's a conscious decision, sometimes it isn't.

I accept their experiences as a result of a mental health disorder. I don't need anything else because that's what's going on.

Thanks for your diagnosis, doctor. The check's in the mail.

Hamlet? That great psychiatrist. I didn't know.

“Though this be madness, yet there is method in ’t.”

Your gender identity is based on biology.

Actually, my gender identity is based on a lot of things, biology doesn't play all that significant of a role, to be honest.

You first.

Pass.

Nope, please refer to my previous posts of actual therapists, articles and the Swedish review of it. I didn't say NONE do. I'm saying the vast majority do and it's a very small minority that got therapy.

Oops...looks like you forgot to post the stats that proved that assertion. I'll wait for it in your follow up post.

You might do some research on the Tavistock issue as well. You will discover that what I'm saying is true. If you fail to acknowledge what the field itself has acknowledged then I'm afraid you are just an idealogue.

Did you fail to read the British Medical Journal?

Here it is again.

Gender dysphoria in young people is rising—and so is professional disagreement

More children and adolescents are identifying as transgender and are being offered medical treatment, especially in the US—but some providers and European authorities are urging caution because of a lack of strong evidence. Jennifer Block reports Last October the American Academy of Pediatrics...

www.bmj.com

Here's more.

What We Don’t Know: Does Gender Transition Improve the Lives of People with Gender Dysphoria?

‘Trust the Experts’ Is Not Enough

Puberty Blockers and Suicidality in Adolescents Suffering from Gender Dysphoria

Nice Evidence Reviews – Cass Review

cass.independent-review.uk

Yes, yes...we know there are differences of opinion in this field, just as there are in every other field of human endeavor. But I will review your links as time allows.

No they are not receiving it he therapy and you are being deceived. Even Wpath doesn't require it. Gender clinics don't require it. Doctors don't require it. And I've proven that to you. Here's more. Did you even watch the videos? Here's more.

(HRT) Hormone Letters and Informed Consent for the Transgender Community - Katie Leikam

I'm beginning to think you are one of those who's an ideologue and no amount of evidence, (even by researchers and other countries etc) showing that

1. The studies involving transgender issues are horrible and completely untrustworthy
2. That transgender people are not receiving therapy to discover the problems and why they might feel they are transgendered and what they can do.
3. That gender is based on sex.

Instead you will listen to the activists who base all their information on the faulty and poor research.

I think this conversation is over. If you read all that I have provided and listen to the videos and still believe the same way, then there is nothing more to say.

Have you read everything, clicked all the links contained in the articles? Have you listened to all the videos?

As I said, I will review them as time permits. I don't have all the time in the world, ya know.

However, I will say this: I'm aware there are a lot of differing opinions on this issue, and many of those different opinions are valid. I do agree that therapy should be stressed more than it sometimes is, and if that is your point, we don't have a problem, so far as that goes.

But...what I do have a problem with is people who don't even try to understand what trans people are going through, who seek to limit the resources and care they should be entitled to, as well as their rights as citizens. As I've said, I know more than a few trans people: some have transitioned, some are in the process, some don't want medical intervention, preferring to simply live the way they want to live. These people, I support unflaggingly.

If that makes me an "ideologue" in your eyes, so be it.

-- A2SG, been called worse.....

 

[rjs330]

I said a hypothesis CAN be evidence. A lot of things can be, if they provide support for a conclusion. That doesn't mean it proves the conclusion, or that it may not lead in other directions as well.


That'd be up to them, wouldn't it?


What rights do black women have that you do not?


If you say so.


I never said your identity is based on your ethnicity.


Yes, your identity is subjective...but that doesn't mean everything is irrelevant. You decide what's relevant or not. Sometimes, it's a conscious decision, sometimes it isn't.


Thanks for your diagnosis, doctor. The check's in the mail.


“Though this be madness, yet there is method in ’t.”


Actually, my gender identity is based on a lot of things, biology doesn't play all that significant of a role, to be honest.


Pass.


Oops...looks like you forgot to post the stats that proved that assertion. I'll wait for it in your follow up post.


Yes, yes...we know there are differences of opinion in this field, just as there are in every other field of human endeavor. But I will review your links as time allows.


As I said, I will review them as time permits. I don't have all the time in the world, ya know.

However, I will say this: I'm aware there are a lot of differing opinions on this issue, and many of those different opinions are valid. I do agree that therapy should be stressed more than it sometimes is, and if that is your point, we don't have a problem, so far as that goes.

But...what I do have a problem with is people who don't even try to understand what trans people are going through, who seek to limit the resources and care they should be entitled to, as well as their rights as citizens. As I've said, I know more than a few trans people: some have transitioned, some are in the process, some don't want medical intervention, preferring to simply live the way they want to live. These people, I support unflaggingly.

If that makes me an "ideologue" in your eyes, so be it.

-- A2SG, been called worse.....

Rather than continue all the back and forth where you just ignore and fail to read it listen to the links I posted, let me just say this.

A the stuff you posted was old news based on old research..what I posted was the new stuff that was in response to the old research. The NEW findings are that the old research was bad and faulty and unreliable. Why even the newest research had to issue a correction to their findings admitting they were incorrect. All the countries that have found that the research was bad, faulty and reliable have do e so recently as they did a systematic review of the research YOU relied upon. Which tells me you aren't interested in hearing what the best information to date has to say about it. That does make you an idealogue. One that refuses to look at the most current information and findings. It's ALL there in the links I posted and the links within the articles and in the videos. What you do with it is up to you.

What you are doing is an appeal to emotion. Understanding what trans people going through is irrelevant to the case at hand. Understanding is an appeal to emotion or empathy. But emotion and empathy does not cure or help people. In fact it can harm them because instead of getting them the help they need you start enabling them. Enabling is a really bad method of helping people. Sometimes you just have to stop enabling and get down to the hard work of actually helping. It's like physical therapy. If I fell bad and just lean on understanding the person with a bad knee and let them limp around on it and give them crutches or a wheelchair so they don't have to use it, I'm empathetic and understanding g if the pain they go through. But I'm not really helping them get better.
Getting them into physical therapy where they have to actually work on it and go through the pain of therapy to fix it then I am really helping them.

And the only way in this case to fix a mental health condition is through mental health therapy. It's not in understanding the mental anguish and enable them to continue with it.

And in many cases now we are finding we have actually harmed rather than helped because we tried to "understand" and offer a quick easy and often very expensive solution that we are finding didn't solve the problem after all. That's the NEW most recent findings.

 

[A2SG]

Rather than continue all the back and forth where you just ignore and fail to read it listen to the links I posted, let me just say this.

A the stuff you posted was old news based on old research..what I posted was the new stuff that was in response to the old research. The NEW findings are that the old research was bad and faulty and unreliable. Why even the newest research had to issue a correction to their findings admitting they were incorrect. All the countries that have found that the research was bad, faulty and reliable have do e so recently as they did a systematic review of the research YOU relied upon. Which tells me you aren't interested in hearing what the best information to date has to say about it. That does make you an idealogue. One that refuses to look at the most current information and findings. It's ALL there in the links I posted and the links within the articles and in the videos. What you do with it is up to you.

I said I'd review it, and I will. So far, I don't see what I've learned has been invalidated, you've just offered a different view. But we will see.

What you are doing is an appeal to emotion. Understanding what trans people going through is irrelevant to the case at hand.

Here, I strongly disagree. Understanding is vital to helping people, especially in therapy.

Understanding is an appeal to emotion or empathy. But emotion and empathy does not cure or help people.

A lack of it isn't a very effective therapeutic technique, I'd have to say.

In fact it can harm them because instead of getting them the help they need you start enabling them. Enabling is a really bad method of helping people. Sometimes you just have to stop enabling and get down to the hard work of actually helping. It's like physical therapy. If I fell bad and just lean on understanding the person with a bad knee and let them limp around on it and give them crutches or a wheelchair so they don't have to use it, I'm empathetic and understanding g if the pain they go through. But I'm not really helping them get better.

See, this is the difference between physical therapy and psychological therapy: bones and joints and muscles work a certain, specific way, and there are proven methods to help them heal. But, when dealing with the mind, there is no one specific method that always works, in every situation. Each individual is different, and different methods work differently on each person. A trained therapist has to understand the person he's trying to help, because, ultimately, he won't be curing the patient. The patient has to cure himself. The therapist isn't trying to cure the patient, the therapist has to guide the patient to do the work himself. That's the only way therapy can work.

Getting them into physical therapy where they have to actually work on it and go through the pain of therapy to fix it then I am really helping them.

The only way to do that in therapy is for the therapist to be empathetic, and understand the individual before him.

And the only way in this case to fix a mental health condition is through mental health therapy. It's not in understanding the mental anguish and enable them to continue with it.

And there are many different ways this mental anguish can be lessened. Sometimes, it's by using gender affirming care, and possibly even surgery. I'll admit it isn't always a solution...but for some individuals, it may very well be the best option available.

And in many cases now we are finding we have actually harmed rather than helped because we tried to "understand" and offer a quick easy and often very expensive solution that we are finding didn't solve the problem after all. That's the NEW most recent findings.

This is why I've always advocated for further research, to better aid our understanding of the issues involved. Thinking we know all the answers, based on preconceived opinions or ideas, isn't going to further our understanding.

Neither is ignoring empathy.

See, a surgeon can look inside a body and see what's wrong with their heart, or their lungs, or whatever, and repair it. A psychologist doesn't have that luxury. The only way they can look inside someone's psyche is to try and understand them, and what they're going through. And you can't do that if you're not empathetic.

The only way to help someone with any mental illness is to help understand what they're going through, to better guide them toward finding a solution that works best for the individual.

-- A2SG, and I'll be the first to admit, there isn't one single option that works for everyone, every time.....

 

[rjs330]

Rather than continue all the back and forth where you just ignore and fail to read it listen to the links I posted, let me just say this.

A the stuff you posted was old news based on old research..what I posted was the new stuff that was in response to the old research. The NEW findings are that the old research was bad and faulty and unreliable. Why even the newest research had to issue a correction to their findings admitting they were incorrect. All the countries that have found that the research was bad, faulty and reliable have do e so recently as they did a systematic review of the research YOU relied upon. Which tells me you aren't interested in hearing what the best information to date has to say about it. That does make you an idealogue. One that refuses to look at the most current information and findings.

What you are doing is an appeal to emotion. Understanding what trans people going through is irrelevant to the case at hand. Understanding is an appeal to emotion or empathy. But emotion and empathy does not cure or help people. In fact it can harm them because instead of getting them the help they need you start enabling them. Enabling is a really bad method of helping people. Sometimes you just have to stop enabling and get down to the hard work of actually helping. It's like physical therapy. If I fell bad and just lean on understanding the person with a bad knee and let them limp around on it and give them crutches or a wheelchair so they don't have to use it, I'm empathetic and understanding g if the pain they go through. But I'm not really helping them get better.
Getting them into physical therapy where they have to actually work on it and go through the pain of therapy to fix it then I am really helping them.

And the only way in this case to fix a mental health condition is through mental health therapy. It's not in understanding the mental anguish and enable them to continue with it.

And in many cases now we are finding we have actually harmed rather than helped because we tried to "understand" and offer a quick easy and often very expensive solution that we are finding didn't solve the problem after all. That's the NEW most recent findings.

I said I'd review it, and I will. So far, I don't see what I've learned has been invalidated, you've just offered a different view. But we will see.


Here, I strongly disagree. Understanding is vital to helping people, especially in therapy.


A lack of it isn't a very effective therapeutic technique, I'd have to say.


See, this is the difference between physical therapy and psychological therapy: bones and joints and muscles work a certain, specific way, and there are proven methods to help them heal. But, when dealing with the mind, there is no one specific method that always works, in every situation. Each individual is different, and different methods work differently on each person. A trained therapist has to understand the person he's trying to help, because, ultimately, he won't be curing the patient. The patient has to cure himself. The therapist isn't trying to cure the patient, the therapist has to guide the patient to do the work himself. That's the only way therapy can work.


The only way to do that in therapy is for the therapist to be empathetic, and understand the individual before him.


And there are many different ways this mental anguish can be lessened. Sometimes, it's by using gender affirming care, and possibly even surgery. I'll admit it isn't always a solution...but for some individuals, it may very well be the best option available.


This is why I've always advocated for further research, to better aid our understanding of the issues involved. Thinking we know all the answers, based on preconceived opinions or ideas, isn't going to further our understanding.

Neither is ignoring empathy.

See, a surgeon can look inside a body and see what's wrong with their heart, or their lungs, or whatever, and repair it. A psychologist doesn't have that luxury. The only way they can look inside someone's psyche is to try and understand them, and what they're going through. And you can't do that if you're not empathetic.

The only way to help someone with any mental illness is to help understand what they're going through, to better guide them toward finding a solution that works best for the individual.

-- A2SG, and I'll be the first to admit, there isn't one single option that works for everyone, every time.....

Good sounds like we are getting somewhere. Empathy and understanding is a starting point. But doesn't help a soul. An appeal to emotion just leads to enabling. A psychologists understanding should not be based upon a starting point. Like affirmative therapy does. Affirmative therapy starts with "you are trans so let's get you medicalized."

Real therapy starts with before we get to trans, let's look at why you feel that way. And then takes a very long hard look at the persons mental health history and other issues throughout their life. Affirmative care subordinates EVERYTHING to trans identity. All that matters is the trans identity. This is what leads to regret and failure to treat the underlying issues that are leading the person to identity as trans. All this is included in links I have provided. Affirmative care is what has failed in Sweden, the UK, Norway and other places. Now if the US could just recognize this we might be getting somewhere. Because up until now out treatments HAVE BEEN based on preconceived opinions and ideas often oreaent s by transactivists and transactivist organizations. All who are terribly biased.

And now the most up to date information is showing that.

 

[A2SG]

Good sounds like we are getting somewhere. Empathy and understanding is a starting point. But doesn't help a soul.

I disagree. For someone having emotional issues of any kind, just hearing that someone is empathetic and understands what they're going through, or is at least trying to, can be a relief, and can help start the healing process.

An appeal to emotion just leads to enabling.

Not necessarily. I admit it can, but it also can lead to understanding. You can't dismiss emotions when dealing with emotional issues.

A psychologists understanding should not be based upon a starting point. Like affirmative therapy does. Affirmative therapy starts with "you are trans so let's get you medicalized."

Nope. An effective form or gender affirming care starts with therapy, and the question, "why do you feel this way?" that leads to further exploration of one's gender and identity. I won't deny that there are some practitioners who may not place sufficient emphasis on this step, but that is not the same as saying it's the standard practice in all facilities or with all practitioners.

Unless you have data that definitively proves that no medical facility ever uses therapy as a first step, you can't make blanket statements about all forms of gender affirming care.

Real therapy starts with before we get to trans, let's look at why you feel that way. And then takes a very long hard look at the persons mental health history and other issues throughout their life.

Agreed.

Affirmative care subordinates EVERYTHING to trans identity.

Again, no. That is not the advised form of care.

All that matters is the trans identity. This is what leads to regret and failure to treat the underlying issues that are leading the person to identity as trans. All this is included in links I have provided. Affirmative care is what has failed in Sweden, the UK, Norway and other places. Now if the US could just recognize this we might be getting somewhere. Because up until now out treatments HAVE BEEN based on preconceived opinions and ideas often oreaent s by transactivists and transactivist organizations. All who are terribly biased.

And now the most up to date information is showing that.

What you've done here is you've taken one view of the failures of some specific instances of gender affirming care, and assumed all forms of care share this failing. They do not. The fact is, while some may not have been helped by gender affirming care, many have been. No one is saying the system is perfect, and no one is saying it works in every case for every individual. But it does work for some, and for those it can help, it should be available.

If your view is that any failure of a form of medical care invalidates all forms, then we should stop all surgeries immediately, because people have died on the operating room table.

-- A2SG, but we do agree that therapy is a necessary first step, and that's something........

 

[rjs330]

I disagree. For someone having emotional issues of any kind, just hearing that someone is empathetic and understands what they're going through, or is at least trying to, can be a relief, and can help start the healing process.

I said it was a starting point, but it doesn't help the illness. I can be as empathetic as I wanted to be with a cancer patient, but that doesn't help them. Not did my empathy for my dad who suffered with dementia. It also doesn't help my father in law who have a delusional disorder.

Empathy and understanding is a good starting point, but it heals no one.

Not necessarily. I admit it can, but it also can lead to understanding. You can't dismiss emotions when dealing with emotional issues.

I thought gender was an identity not an emotion.

starts with therapy, and the question, "why do you feel this way?" that leads to further exploration of one's gender and identity. I won't deny that there are some practitioners who may not place sufficient emphasis on this step, but that is not the same as saying it's the standard practice in all facilities or with all practitioners.

Unless you have data that definitively proves that no medical facility ever uses therapy as a first step, you can't make blanket statements about all forms of gender affirming care.

I've given you the data. You haven't listened or read it yet. Are you aware that planned parenthood gives out these drugs without therapy?

Agreed.

Which takes a very long time. Years. Which is not what affirmative therapy does.

Again, no. That is not the advised form of care.

Yes it is the advised form of care. Man you are way behind in this issue.

Fundamentally, affirmative practice is both active celebration and activist in its manifestation. It requires practitioners to actively affirm and honor identity while at the same time validating the oppression felt by the individual seeking services.

When you finally get through the information I've provided we'll see where you are at.

You responded quickly and I bet you didn't listen to the videos. You are speaking out of a lack of understanding and knowledge as to what has been going on. It's time to catch up.

Does the Affirmative Care Model Protect Kids and Families? A Comprehensive Review — Genspect

By Genspect guest author Lynn Chadwick. See here for the references cited in this article. In a recent sweeping review, authors Steven B. Levine, E. Abbruzzese and Julia M. Mason have outlined concerns broadly experienced by the parents of gender questioning children, youth, and young adults...

genspect.org

 

[A2SG]

I said it was a starting point, but it doesn't help the illness. I can be as empathetic as I wanted to be with a cancer patient, but that doesn't help them. Not did my empathy for my dad who suffered with dementia. It also doesn't help my father in law who have a delusional disorder.

Cancer isn't an emotional issue. When dealing with emotional issues, empathy from a therapist is invaluable, and does, I firmly believe, help patients.

Empathy and understanding is a good starting point, but it heals no one.

Of course, I never claimed it did. Note the part earlier when I said empathy and understanding "can help start the healing process".

I thought gender was an identity not an emotion.

It is. And it's emotional. It's a lot of things.

I've given you the data. You haven't listened or read it yet.

I've read some of what you've posted, but I'm still reviewing. So far, though, none of it invalidates anything I've posted. It does offer a different point of view, which is perfectly valid of course. None of it, though, is conclusive, so research needs to continue.

Are you aware that planned parenthood gives out these drugs without therapy?

So far as I know, Planned Parenthood is a medical clinic, offering services in women's health. I don't believe they have trained therapists on staff. Out of curiosity, based on the documentation you seem to have available, how many of these patients that received drugs had therapy before being referred to the clinic?

Surely, you know this, since your contention is that no therapy whatsoever took place. You wouldn't just be assuming that, would you?

Which takes a very long time. Years. Which is not what affirmative therapy does.

Sure it does. But the specific services offered by specific clinics or medical facilities can differ. A plastic surgery office, for example, doesn't keep trained therapists on staff. Therapy is often done long before a patient is referred to a medical facility for further medical care, and usually continues during and afterward.

Yes it is the advised form of care. Man you are way behind in this issue.

Then how, exactly, am I behind? Are you contending that no medical facility uses the advised form of care in this field? Where is your documentation on that?

Fundamentally, affirmative practice is both active celebration and activist in its manifestation. It requires practitioners to actively affirm and honor identity while at the same time validating the oppression felt by the individual seeking services.

And...what's the problem with that, exactly? Oh, right, you don't believe people actually do feel the way they say they do, because their gender is based solely in their genitalia.

Your beliefs are your own. They don't apply to everyone.

When you finally get through the information I've provided we'll see where you are at.

You responded quickly and I bet you didn't listen to the videos. You are speaking out of a lack of understanding and knowledge as to what has been going on. It's time to catch up.

Does the Affirmative Care Model Protect Kids and Families? A Comprehensive Review — Genspect

By Genspect guest author Lynn Chadwick. See here for the references cited in this article. In a recent sweeping review, authors Steven B. Levine, E. Abbruzzese and Julia M. Mason have outlined concerns broadly experienced by the parents of gender questioning children, youth, and young adults...

genspect.org

I have seen some of them, and I will review further as time permits, but so far, I have to say, I haven't been overly impressed. Certainly, I welcome a different point of view, and I do agree that therapy is a vital tool since these issues are far from easily solved, but nothing you've shown me to date has invalidated anything I've also posted. Just offered different opinions.

Nothing wrong with that. But it also doesn't demonstrate a need to stop all forms of gender affirming care everywhere. This kind of medical treatment does help many people (if not every single person, ever), and should be available for those who need it.

Just like surgeries should.

-- A2SG, nor should we ban the ability to even talk about it, in school or anywhere......

 

[rjs330]

When dealing with emotional issues, empathy from a therapist is invaluable, and does, I firmly believe, help patients.

You missed the part where there is therapy. That's the point. Empathy and understanding doesn't cure anyone "help" them. It's therapy that does. And I sure understand that it's good if the therapist does have understanding. But that shouldn't get in the way of therapy. Like in Affirmative therapy.

Of course, I never claimed it did. Note the part earlier when I said empathy and understanding "can help start the healing process".

It only helps if the healing process has therapy attached to it. Understanding doesn't heal anyone like I said. An emotional appeal that you gave on how we should all be understanding and have empathy for them won't start a healing process for a mental health disorder. Therapy does and it's good if the therapist is understanding of the struggles going on in the person's mind.

It is. And it's emotional. It's a lot of things.

Are you all emotional over your identity?

I've read some of what you've posted, but I'm still reviewing. So far, though, none of it invalidates anything I've posted. It does offer a different point of view, which is perfectly valid of course. None of it, though, is conclusive, so research needs to continue.

Sure it does. Keep reading. You'll find out all about how the research you depended on was garbage. A different point of view? How can they have a different point of view that's valid. You spent this whole thread practically claiming there was not valid point except the affirmative care model and how wonderful it was. How all the research supported it and how we all had to just accept it was the best thing based on the best research.

So far as I know, Planned Parenthood is a medical clinic, offering services in women's health. I don't believe they have trained therapists on staff. Out of curiosity, based on the documentation you seem to have available, how many of these patients that received drugs had therapy before being referred to the clinic?

They don't have to have any. PP doesn't require it. So there is no need for them to keep those.

Sure it does. But the specific services offered by specific clinics or medical facilities can differ. A plastic surgery office, for example, doesn't keep trained therapists on staff. Therapy is often done long before a patient is referred to a medical facility for further medical care, and usually continues during and afterward.

Except in this case. There is no years of therapy before one is assigned to a gender clinic. I told you each affirmative therapy is. It celebrates and affirms the person's transgender identity. It doesn't ask questions and doesn't take into consideration other comorbitiies. They all take a back seat.

Then how, exactly, am I behind? Are you contending that no medical facility uses the advised form of care in this field? Where is your documentation on that?

I contending the vast majority of medical facilities do not use the the advised form of care. I have provided evidence for all of it in all the documentation I have provided.

You didn't even know PP was handing out these drugs to kids. Yes you are behind.

And...what's the problem with that, exactly? Oh, right, you don't believe people actually do feel the way they say they do, because their gender is based solely in their genitalia.

That's not therapy. That's affirmation. How is celebrating a persons gender asking the question why they feel that way. How is that in anyway treating the issues that might have led them to that thought process. Treating the issues that could actually help them realize they are not trans at all but actually dealing with other serious problems?

Good grief what do you think the whole point of this therapy discussion is about? Why do you think all the other countries have stopped doing affirmative therapy?

You haven't listened to the videos have you that discuss this and why the therapists who have actually been involved in this are stating it's not therapy.

Why aren't you pressed? These are actual therapists who work in this field. In fact one of them is one of the few specialists in this field who used to be an affirmative therapist.

And all the writing on why Tavistock was shut down, the affirmative therapy clinic in UK. What about the documentary on Sweden and their affirmative therapy clinics which no longer do that sort of thing?

Your not impressed by any of it? What you think they are all a bunch or rubes? All the other countries are a bunch of fools now?

Yes you are way behind on this issue.

Yes it should be banned from schools. You should listen to those therapists who actually go into the schools and train them in these issues and lay out the actual facts like I have done. The schools didn't know either.

 

[Pommer]

It sure is a sight to witness two stubborn people debating a topic.

 

[A2SG]

You missed the part where there is therapy. That's the point. Empathy and understanding doesn't cure anyone "help" them. It's therapy that does. And I sure understand that it's good if the therapist does have understanding. But that shouldn't get in the way of therapy. Like in Affirmative therapy.

How, exactly, does empathy and understanding "get in the way of therapy"? How can a therapist help guide a patient toward a therapeutic goal if he doesn't empathize with him, or have the ability to understand the person he's helping?

It only helps if the healing process has therapy attached to it. Understanding doesn't heal anyone like I said.

You realize I was talking about therapy, right? I did mention a therapist, after all.

An emotional appeal that you gave on how we should all be understanding and have empathy for them won't start a healing process for a mental health disorder. Therapy does and it's good if the therapist is understanding of the struggles going on in the person's mind.

You do realize, I was talking about therapy and therapists the entire time, right?

"Understanding is vital to helping people, especially in therapy."

"A trained therapist has to understand the person he's trying to help,"

"The only way to do that in therapy is for the therapist to be empathetic, and understand the individual before him."

"When dealing with emotional issues, empathy from a therapist is invaluable, and does, I firmly believe, help patients."

Are you all emotional over your identity?

Sometimes. There are a lot of different emotions involved in one's identity.

Sure it does. Keep reading. You'll find out all about how the research you depended on was garbage.

Nope. I read about insufficient sample sizes, and biases in study subjects...all perfectly valid criticisms. But none of them INVALIDES any of the studies, it simply means the conclusions drawn from them can be debated. That, I've never disputed.

Scientific research, especially when involving psychological issues, is never a simple black/white issue. A different interpretation doesn't mean all previous interpretations are "garbage." That, again, ISN'T HOW SCIENCE WORKS!!!

A different point of view? How can they have a different point of view that's valid.

Because science isn't black or white, either/or. It isn't that simple.

You spent this whole thread practically claiming there was not valid point except the affirmative care model and how wonderful it was.

Nope. A fact that you'll confirm in your next post when you utterly fail to quote me saying anything even remotely like that.

How all the research supported it and how we all had to just accept it was the best thing based on the best research.

Still no.

You have read my posts, right? I used to think so...now, I'm having doubts. You can't be this wrong about what I've said if you've actually been reading.

They don't have to have any. PP doesn't require it. So there is no need for them to keep those.

Ah, I was right. You just assumed.

Except in this case. There is no years of therapy before one is assigned to a gender clinic.

You forgot to document that assertion. Or were you just assuming again?

I told you each affirmative therapy is. It celebrates and affirms the person's transgender identity. It doesn't ask questions and doesn't take into consideration other comorbitiies. They all take a back seat.

Wide, sweeping generalizations. Another way of saying "just assuming."

I contending the vast majority of medical facilities do not use the the advised form of care. I have provided evidence for all of it in all the documentation I have provided.

No, you haven't. You presented people who asserted it, but you've provided no actual documentation to verify it. Despite my asking specifically for it a bunch of times.

People assume stuff all the time, but until you can verify it with actual data, facts and figures, you're left with just an empty assertion based on nothing but an assumption.

You didn't even know PP was handing out these drugs to kids. Yes you are behind.

And you didn't provide proof that any of the patients involved had never even seen a therapist....you just assume they haven't, based on....well, nothing but your own preconceived opinions, so far as I can tell.

That's not therapy. That's affirmation. How is celebrating a persons gender asking the question why they feel that way. How is that in anyway treating the issues that might have led them to that thought process. Treating the issues that could actually help them realize they are not trans at all but actually dealing with other serious problems?

Um, I think you may want to go back over any of my previous posts. You seem to have missed the parts where I say that therapy is a necessary part of the process. I've said it a few times, I'm not sure how you missed it...but check again. It's there.

Good grief what do you think the whole point of this therapy discussion is about? Why do you think all the other countries have stopped doing affirmative therapy?

I've seen a few reports that some countries are taking a more cautious approach toward gender affirmative care for minors, but I've yet to see a report that "all" other countries have banned the practice outright for all patients. If that is what you're claiming, you'll need to prove it.

You haven't listened to the videos have you that discuss this and why the therapists who have actually been involved in this are stating it's not therapy.

I've listened to their points of view, and I understand what they're saying. But you seem to be under the impression that disagreeing with something INVALIDES the entire practice. That ain't how it works.

Why aren't you pressed? These are actual therapists who work in this field. In fact one of them is one of the few specialists in this field who used to be an affirmative therapist.

Yeah, so? Because some practitioners in a field disagree, or had different outcomes, that doesn't invalidate the entire field.

A friend of mine's father had a heart transplant a while back. He developed complications from the donor heart, and died soon afterward. Does that mean we should stop doing heart transplants? A different person I know who is thriving after a heart transplant would disagree.

And all the writing on why Tavistock was shut down, the affirmative therapy clinic in UK. What about the documentary on Sweden and their affirmative therapy clinics which no longer do that sort of thing?

Your not impressed by any of it? What you think they are all a bunch or rubes? All the other countries are a bunch of fools now?

Um, let's see...what did I actually say to that?

"It does offer a different point of view, which is perfectly valid of course. None of it, though, is conclusive, so research needs to continue."

You did read that when I posted it, didn't you?

Yes you are way behind on this issue.

Yes it should be banned from schools. You should listen to those therapists who actually go into the schools and train them in these issues and lay out the actual facts like I have done. The schools didn't know either.

You'll find that sweeping generalizations that show obvious bias don't hold much sway with me.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, as are those whose videos and such you've presented. But none of it proves that gender affirmative care never works, in each and every case ever practiced, so I don't buy the argument that it should be banned, or prevented from even being discussed.

Sorry.

-- A2SG, you gonna argue for banning heart transplants next?

 

[rjs330]

How, exactly, does empathy and understanding "get in the way of therapy"? How can a therapist help guide a patient toward a therapeutic goal if he doesn't empathize with him, or have the ability to understand the person he's helping?

Affirmative therapy. Nuff said.

You do realize, I was talking about therapy and therapists the entire time, right?

"Understanding is vital to helping people, especially in therapy."

"A trained therapist has to understand the person he's trying to help,"

"The only way to do that in therapy is for the therapist to be empathetic, and understand the individual before him."

"When dealing with emotional issues, empathy from a therapist is invaluable, and does, I firmly believe, help patients."

Got it.

Nope. I read about insufficient sample sizes, and biases in study subjects...all perfectly valid criticisms. But none of them INVALIDES any of the studies, it simply means the conclusions drawn from them can be debated. That, I've never disputed.

Yes it does. Improper studies lead to improper or biased conclusions. And it was those improper studies with improper conclusions that lead to improper treatments.

Scientific research, especially when involving psychological issues, is never a simple black/white issue. A different interpretation doesn't mean all previous interpretations are "garbage." That, again, ISN'T HOW SCIENCE WORKS!!!

The research was garbage and because it was the conclusions were garbage. This wasn't science. Systematic reviews that were done on these studies were done and they found the studies to be too flawed to be used. That makes them garbage. They werent science.

No, you haven't. You presented people who asserted it, but you've provided no actual documentation to verify it. Despite my asking specifically for it a bunch of times.

People assume stuff all the time, but until you can verify it with actual data, facts and figures, you're left with just an empty assertion based on nothing but an assumption.

No I provided it. There are links to everything in the articles. The people discussing on video have access to it just like you do. You're still behind the times.

Um, let's see...what did I actually say to that?

"It does offer a different point of view, which is perfectly valid of course. None of it, though, is conclusive, so research needs to continue."

You did read that when I posted it, didn't you?

I did read it and you said you weren't impressed. You then said it was valid. When you spent the entire thread before trying to say what I was saying wasn't valid because all the so called research didn't support what I was saying.

Now you are saying their thoughts on the matter are valid. Which is what I was saying exactly. And now you are still claiming I haven't provided any evidence. Where do you think they got the valid points of view from? The same places I did and the same places I mentioned and the same places where I linked to the information.

And you didn't provide proof that any of the patients involved had never even seen a therapist....you just assume they haven't, based on....well, nothing but your own preconceived opinions, so far as I can tell.

If therapy is not required then why would people be getting therapy. You didn't listen to the therapist who told you that people wouldn't take her on as a therapist because they wanted the quick assessment and referral letter to move forward. People weren't interested in therapy. PP doesn't require it. You didn't listen to how kids and people are using the Internet to come in with the prescribed statement they need to say I order to get the medical transition. Why even WPATH doesn't require it.

While historically a "referral letter" from a mental health professional was required prior to initiation of hormone therapy, many large volume and experienced providers of transgender care have for years used an "informed consent" pathway to hormone initiation. WPATH(link is external) Standards of Care, Seventh Version recognizes both of these pathways to the initiation of gender affirming hormone therapy as valid. Medical providers who feel comfortable making an assessment and diagnosis of gender dysphoria, as well as assessing for capacity to provide informed consent (able to understand risks, benefits, alternatives, unknowns, limitations, risks of no treatment) are able to initiate gender affirming hormones without a prior assessment or referral from a mental health provider.[1]

See no therapy is needed.

At the Johns Hopkins Center for Transgender Health, the informed consent model offers a less burdensome experience for patients. It aligns with WPATH (World Professional Association for Transgender Health) standards as a matter of harm reduction. This model moves away from the need for a qualified mental health care provider to “verify” someone’s gender dysphoria before starting gender affirming hormone therapy. Instead, an experienced practitioner can review with the patient the physical and psychological risks, benefits and limitations of hormone therapy. The patient reviews the information, has an opportunity to ask questions and is able to make an informed decision by signing the consent form. (At Johns Hopkins, we confirm consent with a written consent form.)

It’s important to recognize that this approach shifts away from treating gender dysphoria, or gender incongruence, as a mental illness. Instead, the provider’s main role is to support and affirm transgender identity (Schultz SL, 2018). Florence Ashley writes: “Referral requirements for HRT (hormone replacement therapy) treat self-reports of gender dysphoria not as one would treat reports of normal mental experiences, but as one would treat reports of mental illnesses.

Informed Consent Model for Gender Affirming Hormone Therapy | Affirm

At the Johns Hopkins Center for Transgender Health, the informed consent model offers a less burdensome experience for patients.

affirm.blogs.hopkinsmedicine.org

Hormone therapy
Adults: A primary care provider can offer hormone therapy; you do not need to see an endocrinologist. You also don’t need a mental health letter of support. Learn more about hormone therapy.

Patient Guide to Gender-Affirming Care | OHSU

Here's an article written in 2018 describing how easy it is to get a referral letter or how to get the treatments without one at all.

https://discover.hubpages.com/relat...l-Hormone-Replacement-Therapy-Relatively-Easy

Matt Walsh Undercover Investigation Catches Trans Health Care Providers ‘Rubber-Stamping’ Sex-Change Surgeries | The Daily Wire

The standards for dysphoria from the DSM are these.

Diagnosis (per DSM- V)

Gender dysphoria in children

A. A marked incongruence between one's experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, of at least six months duration, as manifested but at least six of the following (one of which must be criteria A1)

A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that they are the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one's assigned gender)
In boys (assigned gender), a strong preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire or, in girls (assigned gender), a strong preference for wearing only typical masculine clothing and strong resistance to wearing typical feminine clothing
A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play
A strong preference for the toys, games, or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender.
A strong preference for playmates of the other gender
In boys (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically masculine toys, games, and activities and a strong avoidance of rough-and-tumble play or, in girls (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically feminine toys, games, and activities.
A strong dislike of one's sexual anatomy
A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics matching one's experienced gender.

B. The condition is associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, school, or other important areas of functioning.

Specify if the above criteria are in addition to a disorder of sex development (e.g., a congenital adrenogenital disorder such as congenital adrenal hyperplasia or androgen insensitivity disorder).

Gender dysphoria in adolescents and adults

A. A marked incongruence between one's experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender of at least six months duration, as manifested by at least two of the following:

A marked incongruence between one's experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics (or, in young adolescents, the anticipated secondary sex characteristics).
A strong desire to be rid of one's primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one's experienced/expressed gender (or, in young adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondary sex characteristics).
A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender.
A strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one's assigned gender).
A strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one's assigned gender).
A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one's assigned gender).

SIX MONTHS presentation is all it takes now in the US. Yet over 90% of teens desist.

So no therapy required. Many ways to get easy referral letters. Places that dont even require them. Only six months needed for presentation and you get affirmed as trans. And the requirements for it are as simple as I like to play with toys from the opposite sex or l like to play with the opposite sex.

 

[Pommer]

Affirmative therapy. Nuff said.

Your “therapy” seems like it would consist of a mirror and a box of tissues.

 

[RileyG]

It's possible to teach about gender identity and LGBT stuff without "condoning" it so to speak. From an academic perspective, people should be taught anything and shouldn't be ignorant about anything.

 

[A2SG]

Affirmative therapy. Nuff said.

Riiiight.

Got it.

Yes it does. Improper studies lead to improper or biased conclusions. And it was those improper studies with improper conclusions that lead to improper treatments.

Just because a study shows a bias or has a small sample size, that doesn't make every conclusion drawn from that study automatically wrong in all respects. Your bias is showing here.

The research was garbage and because it was the conclusions were garbage. This wasn't science. Systematic reviews that were done on these studies were done and they found the studies to be too flawed to be used. That makes them garbage. They werent science.

Again, flawed doesn't equal wrong. Questionable, yes. Debatable, sure. Inconclusive, absolutely. But flawed studies aren't sufficient cause to throw out the entire practice wholeheartedly. It simply means further research is necessary.

As I've been saying all along.

No I provided it. There are links to everything in the articles. The people discussing on video have access to it just like you do. You're still behind the times.

No, I just don't share your preconceptions.

I did read it and you said you weren't impressed. You then said it was valid. When you spent the entire thread before trying to say what I was saying wasn't valid because all the so called research didn't support what I was saying.

I never said your point of view wasn't valid. I simply disagree with your conclusions.

What's the problem with that?

Now you are saying their thoughts on the matter are valid. Which is what I was saying exactly.

Yeah, so? It's a valid opinion. You're free to agree, just as others are free to disagree.

Still not seeing a problem.

And now you are still claiming I haven't provided any evidence.

Actually, I said you didn't provide proof. You've made a few very specific claims that lack documentation to support them.

You have provided evidence about flaws in some of the studies done in the field, and that's fine. I acknowledge that the research is inconclusive, and that's one of the reasons why more research is needed. However, when you call the research into affirmative care "garbage," that's just your opinion. There are flaws in the research, no question, but I simply don't agree we should throw it all out. I think we can learn from it, so long as we acknowledge its flaws, and I also think more research, with better methodologies, is definitely called for.

Where do you think they got the valid points of view from? The same places I did and the same places I mentioned and the same places where I linked to the information.

Just because I recognize an opinion as valid, that doesn't mean I agree with it, or the conclusions drawn from it.

If therapy is not required then why would people be getting therapy.

Therapy should be required. I've said that from the start, and never wavered from that.

And, just because a specific medical facility doesn't offer therapy as part of its service, that doesn't mean patients don't get therapy on their own beforehand. Most people who have gender identity issues seek help in a variety of ways, including therapy, before they ever get to a medical facility to undergo treatment for gender reassignment. If you want to claim that this never happens, that's a claim you'll have to document somehow.

Good luck!

You didn't listen to the therapist who told you that people wouldn't take her on as a therapist because they wanted the quick assessment and referral letter to move forward. People weren't interested in therapy. PP doesn't require it. You didn't listen to how kids and people are using the Internet to come in with the prescribed statement they need to say I order to get the medical transition. Why even WPATH doesn't require it.

So, you're saying that some patients don't want the advised form of care, and prefer to make their own decisions regarding their medical care.

Shocking!

While historically a "referral letter" from a mental health professional was required prior to initiation of hormone therapy, many large volume and experienced providers of transgender care have for years used an "informed consent" pathway to hormone initiation. WPATH(link is external) Standards of Care, Seventh Version recognizes both of these pathways to the initiation of gender affirming hormone therapy as valid. Medical providers who feel comfortable making an assessment and diagnosis of gender dysphoria, as well as assessing for capacity to provide informed consent (able to understand risks, benefits, alternatives, unknowns, limitations, risks of no treatment) are able to initiate gender affirming hormones without a prior assessment or referral from a mental health provider.[1]

See no therapy is needed.

At the Johns Hopkins Center for Transgender Health, the informed consent model offers a less burdensome experience for patients. It aligns with WPATH (World Professional Association for Transgender Health) standards as a matter of harm reduction. This model moves away from the need for a qualified mental health care provider to “verify” someone’s gender dysphoria before starting gender affirming hormone therapy. Instead, an experienced practitioner can review with the patient the physical and psychological risks, benefits and limitations of hormone therapy. The patient reviews the information, has an opportunity to ask questions and is able to make an informed decision by signing the consent form. (At Johns Hopkins, we confirm consent with a written consent form.)

It’s important to recognize that this approach shifts away from treating gender dysphoria, or gender incongruence, as a mental illness. Instead, the provider’s main role is to support and affirm transgender identity (Schultz SL, 2018). Florence Ashley writes: “Referral requirements for HRT (hormone replacement therapy) treat self-reports of gender dysphoria not as one would treat reports of normal mental experiences, but as one would treat reports of mental illnesses.

Informed Consent Model for Gender Affirming Hormone Therapy | Affirm

At the Johns Hopkins Center for Transgender Health, the informed consent model offers a less burdensome experience for patients.

affirm.blogs.hopkinsmedicine.org

Hormone therapy
Adults: A primary care provider can offer hormone therapy; you do not need to see an endocrinologist. You also don’t need a mental health letter of support. Learn more about hormone therapy.

Patient Guide to Gender-Affirming Care | OHSU

Here's an article written in 2018 describing how easy it is to get a referral letter or how to get the treatments without one at all.

https://discover.hubpages.com/relat...l-Hormone-Replacement-Therapy-Relatively-Easy

Matt Walsh Undercover Investigation Catches Trans Health Care Providers ‘Rubber-Stamping’ Sex-Change Surgeries | The Daily Wire

So, what you're saying here is some people prefer to make their own medical decisions.

Um....yeah. People do that. Sometimes, it works, sometimes it doesn't. Not sure what you want me to do about that.

Your solution seems to be to throw out the entire field because of some bad outcomes, and ignore the positive outcomes entirely. I disagree.

The standards for dysphoria from the DSM are these.

Diagnosis (per DSM- V)

Gender dysphoria in children

A. A marked incongruence between one's experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, of at least six months duration, as manifested but at least six of the following (one of which must be criteria A1)

A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that they are the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one's assigned gender)
In boys (assigned gender), a strong preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire or, in girls (assigned gender), a strong preference for wearing only typical masculine clothing and strong resistance to wearing typical feminine clothing
A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play
A strong preference for the toys, games, or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender.
A strong preference for playmates of the other gender
In boys (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically masculine toys, games, and activities and a strong avoidance of rough-and-tumble play or, in girls (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically feminine toys, games, and activities.
A strong dislike of one's sexual anatomy
A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics matching one's experienced gender.

B. The condition is associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, school, or other important areas of functioning.

Specify if the above criteria are in addition to a disorder of sex development (e.g., a congenital adrenogenital disorder such as congenital adrenal hyperplasia or androgen insensitivity disorder).

Gender dysphoria in adolescents and adults

A. A marked incongruence between one's experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender of at least six months duration, as manifested by at least two of the following:

A marked incongruence between one's experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics (or, in young adolescents, the anticipated secondary sex characteristics).
A strong desire to be rid of one's primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one's experienced/expressed gender (or, in young adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondary sex characteristics).
A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender.
A strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one's assigned gender).
A strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one's assigned gender).
A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one's assigned gender).

SIX MONTHS presentation is all it takes now in the US. Yet over 90% of teens desist.

So no therapy required. Many ways to get easy referral letters. Places that dont even require them. Only six months needed for presentation and you get affirmed as trans. And the requirements for it are as simple as I like to play with toys from the opposite sex or l like to play with the opposite sex.

Are you saying that therapy should be a requirement? I agree.

Beyond that, I'm not sure what point you're going for here. Earlier, you claimed that affirmative care "doesn't ask questions and doesn't take into consideration other comorbitiies." Here, you outline the questions.

-- A2SG, nothing more I need do here.....