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Five have fallen, one is...........

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Justme, Oct 16, 2004.

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  1. Barraco

    Barraco Senior Member

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    Ezra gives this account, that Cyrus decreed it, but it never followed through. Then Darius had it recovered and issued, but the temple wasn't rebuilt until the sixth year of Darius(Xerxes, I suppose). So you have several decrees. Josephus may help with identifying these kings and their decrees. Jesus bless you.
     
  2. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

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    Hi Forum,

    So after taking a side trip thru Daniel's prophecy, I have come back to looking for five kings that have fallen , one who is and one that will come.

    There was one suggestion that it involved word empires. The Roman Empire would be the one who is at the time of the writing... There is a tiny problem with that. When we read Revelation we are not concerned with the time of the writing but with the timing of the occurance of the events the vision is displaying.

    If events were occurring during the Roman empire , the 'now is' was before whatever, 400 AD. SO that won't fit either.

    What other suggestions as to who the five are and one is?

    Justme
     
  3. Barraco

    Barraco Senior Member

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    The prophecy of the seven kings was concerning the time of writing, soley because it was an interpretation of the vision that he saw, and was given to him at that time by an angel. Revelation 17 isn't just a prophecy, its a discussion of interpretation of the vision. And the seven kings are actual kings who have blasphemed God and lifted their hands against the saints, or in other words, those opposed to God's will and ministry and a direct mockup of Satan.
     
  4. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

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    Hi Barraco,


    So you feel it is concerning the time of the writing. What king would you see as the 'now is'?

    The time that is being described is the biblical 1000 year reign with Christ because:

    Rev 17
    8The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction.

    The only time that would fit that is when Satan is in the pit and that is during that 1000 years.

    Justme
     
  5. Hi justme. I believe that verse should be translated "going to perdition/destruction. There is no "his" in the greek. Chapt 11 shows that beast coming up and killing the "2 witnesses" and making war against the "2 witnesses". The time is the same time that the beast of the sea is giving authority to trample on the "holy city":eek: There has to be a type of "king of babylon" in here somewhere.
    The beast from the earth on the other hand is different with 2 horns/kings. Maybe something to do with those 2[3, with an 8th being of the 7] heads. So much symbology, lol.
    But nowhere does it say what these 2 horns represent:eek: What do you think?:preach:

    (NKJV) Revelation 17:8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition.

    reve 11: 3 "And I will give [power] to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." 7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.
     
  6. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

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    Hi ICF,

    I see the evil (symbolic Satan) as being destroyed in this meaning. I would like to think that there will be no evil in the Kingdom of God.

    The bottom line is that Satan is in scripture, Then it is put away while this reign with Christ happens , then it comes out and is finally destroyed in the symbolic lake of fire.

    All over and done with at that time and not a living soul could have ever reached out to touch IT at any time. Such is Revelation. IT exists but it doesn't , It is gone but IT isn't!!!!!!!

    Justme
     
  7. Barraco

    Barraco Senior Member

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    Maybe I didn't emphasize on who the beast is. If you read the description of the beast in Revelation 13, you will see he has the appearance of a leopard(looks like a Greek), has the feet of the bear(military power of Persia) and the mouth of a lion(the authority that Babylon once practiced) He also has seven heads that are covered in blasphemy. BLASPHEMY is the key word. This means he exalts himself above the Lord and all that is called God.
    Now, to what you asked me.....NOW IS means that one of the heads were alive. Now, stop and think about the interpretation.....

    The beast himself is an 8th king and BELONGS to the seven. That means they all share the same traits. At one time, these kings persecuted the saints, attempted to change the law, did away with sacrifice and oblation or caused it to stop, and exalted themselves above God. They were blaspheming kings who, despite the Lord's apparent signs, they still set themselves up to oppose His will and His ministry, because they are of their father Satan, who lies and devours.

    The 8th king is the son of perdition, the king of the North from Daniel 11:36, the antichrist. These are actual kings who all share the same characteristics.

    NOW TAKE NOTE THAT REVELATION 19 AND 20 ARE BOTH ONE STORY, ITS NOT A SEPERATE PROPHECY. REV. 19 TELLS OF THE DESTRUCTION OF THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET AND THE SLAUGHTERING OF THE ARMIES OF THE NATIONS.
    REV. 20 IS ABOUT THE BINDING OF SATAN FOR 1,000 YEARS AND SO ON.
    THE BEAST EXISTS BEFORE SATAN IS BOUND.

    READ REVELATION, AND THE BIBLE FOR THAT MATTER, WITH AN OPEN MIND. Jesus Christ bless you.
     
  8. So what are the 2 horns on the beast of the earth representing? The beast of the earth appears to be the Harlot the beast of the sea is attacking and destroying, correct?

    This is the same beast that is coming against Israel according to Hosea. That is from the BIBLE!!.:amen:

    Hosea 13:7 "So I will be to them like a lion; Like a leopard by the road I will lurk; 8 I will meet them like a bear deprived [of her cubs;] I will tear open their rib cage, And there I will devour them like a lion. The wild beast shall tear them. 9 " O Israel, you are destroyed, But your help [is] from Me.

    reve 13: 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like [the feet of] a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.
     
  9. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

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    Hi Barraco,
    I don't think there is an question as to who the beast is in Rev 17. The question is why was there two beasts. As you follow it thru one of the beasts is satan. Why it would be written this confusing is a mystery, but there itr is.

    8The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction.

    Who was sent to the pit?

    Rev 20
    1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the :preach: abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

    Satan once was ...he/it was once in Heaven it was kicked out of heaven to earth.(once was) It will be in that abyss for the biblical 1000 years(now is not) and then it will be:(will come up out of the abyss)
    Rev 20:3
    .........After that, he must be set free for a short time.

    10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown.

    Satan was is not now and will come again and go to it's destruction. ICF mentions that 'destruction' could mean 'perdition, but that doesn't change the fact that it also could mean destruction. A tremendous group of bible translators say destruction.

    As is always the case it is what translation or interpretation fits with the bible as a whole. Scripture proves scripture.

    Vinsight had a theory about the bladspheny as well, but her posts are deleted now. I'm not seeing the importance of this blasphent thing in this situation.

    Justme
     
  10. Codger

    Codger Regular Member

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    Dear Justme,

    There have been so many posts that have been deleted from this thread it may be that my comments are redundant - I don't know.

    A possible answer to your question would depend on how you you have decided to interpret the book of Revelation. If you think the book is for us today - like the Dispensationalists do - then your answer has no constrains and is open ended and is only limited by your imagination.

    If you think the book is written specifically to the first century Christians and more broadly to the Christians living in the Roman empire then we have limits and bounderies to our study. This is what I think we should be doing - limiting our study to the historical record of the Roman period.

    Rev. 17:9-11 (NASB)
    "Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, [10] and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. [11] "And the beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth, and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.

    The first verse is easy and simple – Rome was built on seven hills. An indirect reference to the beast which was Rome. A chart of these Kings from that historical period is...

    1. Tiberius - fallen 1.

    2. Caligula - fallen 2.

    3. Claudius - fallen 3.

    4. Nero - one who was, is not, and is to come for a little, who also was an eighth, but was of the seven, making Nero both one of the seven and the eighth.

    5. Vespasian – fallen 4.

    6.Titus - fallen 5.

    7.Domitian - the one who is, Nero reincarnated, therefore an eighth – belonging to the seven, yet symbolically having Nero reincarnated in him making Domitian both a seventh and an eighth.

    The historical information you must know to understand this chart is the fact that it was a very common belief among the Romans in that day that Nero was expected to be reincarnated. The Nero redivivus or resurrection myth was widely and continually perpetuated for a period of over twenty years.

    William Durant said that Domitian ..."began like Gabriel and ended like Lucifer." Domitian reigned from AD 81-96. Something happened to change Domitians character in the year AD 86 after an attempted take over by Saturninus. Durant says that this was the turning point between his better and worse selves. He had always been coldly severe, but now he slipped into cruelty. He then filled the Capitol with statues of himself, announced the divinity of his father, brother, wife and sisters as well as himself. Set up a new order of priests to attend to the worship of these new deities and required officials to speak of him in their documents, as Dominus et Deus Noster – our Lord and God. This caused a general rebellion in the empire and was especially problematic to the Christians. It was in AD 93 that Domitian executed some Christians for refusing to offer sacrifice before his image. This was the beginning of the "incarnation" of Nero. Something that God foresaw and warned the early Christians about in the book of Revelation.

    Rome had a practice of dealing with the leadership first which could mean that John was the first to be dealt with in Asia Minor possibly in 93 maybe as late as 94. By the way Asia Minor had the highest concentration of Christians in the first Century (Eerdmans History)
    The interpretation given here also ties the writing of the book to the time of Dometian and not the earlier date of Revelation


    Rev. 13:18 (NASB)
    Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.

    1. It's something that you have to "Calculate" and it was common in that day to use numbers to represent letters. Not so much in our day.

    2. It is the number of "A" man – singular according to translations.

    3. The calculated (added) numbers of his name totals 666.

    Fr. Patrick J. Sena says that the Hebrew totals for Nero Caesar add up to 666 – but it is spelled Neron in Hebrew and not in the Latin used by the Romans which only uses one "N". Remember the writer John thought in Hebrew and Aramaic and translated to Greek in his writing. Some ancient manuscripts use 616 because they did not include the final Hebrew N of Neron (50) in their translation.

    So 666 indicates "Nero" who is now dead in the suggested time line. But the scripture says that the seventh now is, "Domitian" and the eighth is yet to come. It is saying that Domitian is on the throne, but his time of cruelty toward the Christians had not yet taken place and didn’t until 93 when he became reincarnated with the "spirit" of Nero. He then became the eighth. The end of Rev 17:11 says... and he goes to destruction. This is a Prophesy of the demise of Domitian in 96AD, who was assinated. One would have to be very careful of making such statements under occupation. This of course is the reason for using apocalyptic language to encode the message.

    And of course there is also the general understanding that six is the number of man and triple six means total depravity. But this given interpretation addresses every word of the Prophesy within the context of the historical record.

    Codger

     
  11. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

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    Hi Codger.

    Well, I'll tell you, I sure can't prove you wrong. Very interesting.

    Thank you

    Justme
     
  12. Codger has interesting ideas. Notice it never describes what the 2 horns of the beast of the earth are, except that it likened to a lamb and speaks as a dragon. These 2 horns appear to maybe be the false prophet and devil I think. The beast of the earth is the great city/Harlot and the one being destroyed by the beast of the sea, and it does show all 3 being destroyed in the "lake of fire". I will start working on this more deeply next week so I may take a break from here. How do you view it?God bless.

    http://www.site-berea.com/B/rwp/n27c1.html
    11 And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and it had two horns, likened unto a lamb, and spoke as a dragon, 13:11 Another beast (\allo thˆrion\). Like the first beast (verse 1), not a \heteron thˆrion\ (a different beast). Out of the earth (\ek tˆs gˆs\). Not "out of the sea" as the first (verse 1), perhaps locating him in Asia Minor without world-wide scope, but plainly the agent of the first beast and so of the dragon. He had (\eichen\). Imperfect active of \ech"\. Only two horns (not ten like the first, verse 1). Like unto a lamb (\homoia arni"i\). Usual construction. Only the two horns of a young lamb and without the ferocity of the other beast, but "he spake as a dragon" (\elalei h"s drak"n\). Gunkel and Charles confess their inability to make anything out of this item. But Swete thinks that he had the roar of a dragon with all the looks of a lamb (weakness and innocence).

    12 And it is exercising all the authority of the first beast in its sight, and it maketh the earth and those dwelling in it that they shall worship before the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed, 13:12 He exerciseth (\poiei\). Present active dramatic present of \poie"\. In his sight (\en"pion autou\). In the eye of the first beast who gets his authority from the dragon (13:2). The second beast carries on the succession of authority from the dragon and the first beast. It has been a common Protestant interpretation since the Reformation of Luther to see in the first beast Pagan Rome and in the second beast Papal Rome. There is undoubted verisimilitude in this interpretation, but it is more than doubtful if any such view comes within the horizon of the imagery here. Ramsay takes the first beast to be the power of imperial Rome and the second beast to be the provincial power which imitated Rome in the persecutions. To worship the first beast (\hina proskunˆsousin to thˆrion to pr"ton\). Sub-final clause with \hina\ after \poiei\ seen in Joh 11:37; Col 4:16; Re 3:9, usually with the subjunctive, but here with the future indicative as in 3:9. Note the accusative after \proskune"\ as in verse 8. Here the death-stroke of one of the heads (verse 3) is ascribed to the beast. Clearly the delegated authority of the provincial priests of the emperor-worship is rigorously enforced, if this is the correct interpretation.

    13 and it is doing great signs, that he should even make fire come down out of heaven unto the earth before men, 13:13 That he should even make fire come down out of heaven (\hina kai pur poiˆi ek tou ouranou katabainein\). Purpose clause again with \hina\ and the present active subjunctive of \poie"\ and the object infinitive of \katabain"\ after \poiei\. Christ promised great signs to the disciples (Joh 14:12), but he also warned them against false prophets and false christs with their signs and wonders (Mr 13:22). So also Paul had pictured the power of the man of sin (2Th 2:9). Elijah had called down fire from heaven (1Ki 18:38; 2Ki 1:10) and James and John had once even urged Jesus to do this miracle (Lu 9:54).

    14 and it leadeth astray/deceives those dwelling on the earth, because of the signs that were given it to do before the beast, saying to those dwelling upon the earth to make an image to the beast that has the stroke/wound of the sword and did live[came to life], 13:14 And he deceiveth (\kai planƒi\). Present active (dramatic) indicative of \plana"\, the very thing that Jesus had said would happen (Mt 24:24, "So as to lead astray" \h"ste planƒsthai\, the word used here, if possible the very elect). That they should make an image to the beast (\poiˆsai eikona t"i thˆri"i\). Indirect command (this first aorist active infinitive of \poie"\) after \leg"n\ as in Ac 21:21, not indirect assertion. This "image" (\eik"n\, for which word see Mt 22:20; Col 1:15) of the emperor could be his head upon a coin (Mr 12:16), an _imago_ painted or woven upon a standard, a
     
  13. Barraco

    Barraco Senior Member

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    Okay, down to nitty gritty. The beast from the earth is the false prophet. Don't take the horns to seem of power, okay. These horns go in context to 'like those of a lamb' but 'he spoke like a dragon.'

    The dragon, as we all know is Satan. The Lamb is whom refer to as Jesus Christ. Satan's native language is a lie, when he speaks, he speaks of his own resources. Yes, he is the father of lies. Jesus Christ, the Lamb, on the other hand, speaks the Word of God, which is truth. Following so far?

    So the horns like those of a lamb, I believe, represent how he seems to be a truth teller and a holy man, but speaks lies. This is the false prophet, of whom Jesus Christ said would decieve many, if possible, even the elect.

    How do I know that this is the false prophet???? BECAUSE NO WHERE ELSE IN REVELATION OTHER THAN REVELATION 19 IS THE WORD 'FALSE PROPHET' MENTIONED! On top of that, the false prophet is mentioned to be with and captured with the Beast. The second beast is the false prophet who convinces many into believing that the beast is God.

    Babylon is seperate from the false prophet as far as indentity goes. Please consider greatly what I've shown you; it might help you with your study on the beast. Jesus Christ bless you.
     
  14. Barraco

    Barraco Senior Member

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    The beast is not Satan! Satan only gives the beast his throne, power, and dominion. The beast is OF Satan, but isn't Satan. The beast is destroyed along with the false prophet(the second beast who speaks on behalf of the first beast) apart from and before Satan. Satan is destroyed 1,000 yrs. later.
    We could ASSUME that Satan entered him, but then we'd just be making up the story. There Scriptural facts about the antichrist and should not be overlooked or dominated over by guesstimation. The blashemy part, is important because that shows the nature of the beast. This man will be vain and full of pride for himself.
     
  15. FreeinChrist

    FreeinChrist CF Staff Trainer Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter

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    But you left out a few:

    After Nero, who committed suicide in 68 AD, there was:

    L. Iulius Vindex (in 68 AD)
    L. Clodius Macer (in 68 AD)
    Galba (68 AD)
    C. Nymphidius Sabinus (in 69 AD)
    Otho (69 AD)
    Vitellius (69 AD)

    THEN
    Vespasian (69-70 AD).
    Titus
    Dominitan

    John received the vison during the reign of Dominitan.
    So John, writing down the Revelation that was received from God, taught the nero Redivisus Myth?

    I don't think so.

    I am glad to see that you recognize that persecution occurred under Dominitan, whcih is something several preterists have tried to deny on this mb. However, I truly question the idea that Dominitan was Nero incarnate. Since when did nero get the power to that? He was just a man.

    Besides, John received the vision toward the end of Dominitan's reign.


    I think you have alot of speculation here. And there are many names that can be calculated to be 666.
     
  16. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

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    Hi Free,

    Holy Smoke, you may be on to something! Thanks for bringing this up.

    Maybe the five have fallen one is etc refers to just the 'kings' during the destruction of Jerusalem.

    I'll check that out right away.

    Justme
     
  17. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

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    Hi Forum,

    Wow, I looked up these ancient Roman guys.

    There actually was rulers of Rome who were called KINGS. Guess what? There was seven of them. It started with King Romulus which seems to be half myth anyhow, but they seem to cover a 200 year period early in the empire.

    However, this thought of rulers just during the time of the destruction of Jerusalem and John's involvment in biblical time.

    Nero, Galba, Ortho,Vitellius,Vesparian, Titus, Domitian.

    Free's conclusion that there was persecution was during Domitian time is right I think???, but Paul and others were killed prior to the rebellion and then of course there was that guy Jesus.

    Anyway I found seven actual kings, too early to be the five have fallen, one is, I think, as I said before.

    I found seven enmporors that are in the time of the vision easy enough, but what else fits?

    Where are the seven hills?
    Rev 17
    9"This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.

    Rome sits on seven hills. Rome is a city.
    Rev 17
    18The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."

    Rev 17
    the seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while.

    Five have fallen...are dead???
    Nero, Galba, Ortho,Vitellius,Vesparian,??????????????/

    One is...Titus is ?????Titus wasn't emporor during the time of the destruction, he just led the armies as I understand and became emperor later. However, he and Domitian fit into John's life span.

    This beast that comes out of the abyss that astonishes all who are not in the book of life since creation. How would that fit Pope albert of 2056 AD for instance? How do we apply this to some future date to today?

    Justme
     
  18. Barraco

    Barraco Senior Member

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    You made a point that just stood out to me. You are correct when you say that the beast will astonish many. That's they key in interpretation! Domitian didn't astonish many and they didn't wonder at how great he was, they were offended at him and wanted him dead!

    This means that this future king is still yet to be. I believe people worship the beast because he recieves a deadly wound but it miraclously healed. No king has fit this description yet.

    Many marveled at Nebuchadnezzar, Alexander,Julius Caesar, Augustus Caesar, Vespasian, and Titus.

    I'm sure the list could go on.
     
  19. FreeinChrist

    FreeinChrist CF Staff Trainer Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter

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    Agreed.
     
  20. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

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    HI Barraco,

    Biblically speaking, the only king who recieved a deadly wound and lived was Christ.

    How does that work?


    You know, you are right.Not only that but there is no line of kings on planet earth that even come close to meeting this prophecy so the end times are nowhere near. There has to be five kings in the line die first and we don't even have a start right now. ....no end times.

    Justme
     
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