Five have fallen, one is...........

[Barraco]

Hi ICF,

THe beast was around, then it was thown in the abyss. That is if you consider the beast to be evil or the devil, Satan.

It was and is not, but will be again. It is let out or awhile at the end of the 1000 years. If you consider the events to be 70 ad stuff well then the fifth king would be Nero who's name calculates to 666 I understand. It would make sense for John not to publically put forth the name of the Emporor w... ho is killing christians by the dozens just because they are christians, thus John codes it as 666. That then could be taken as the eigth king who was really one of the seven. Nero was the anti christ. It also dates the writing of Revelation to 68 AD circa.

All of that would also fit with Luke 21 as it states that the abomination would actually be an army....Nero's army.

I don't want to get into these kings right away, I want to look at all possible combinations of rulers who may fit in for the present time. People are pushing that these are the end times. To be the end times there have to be five rulers gone and one that IS.....Does that situation exist today. If it doesn't, this talk of present endtimes is hogwash. Plain and simple.

Justme

What one should understand is that the beast; the man of sin, that is, is all that was described, not just an eigth king. He is of the seven, that means his spirit belonged to seven others; five of whom had fallen, one was still alive at the writing of revelation, and a future king. Now the mystery is that the beast was, is not, and will come up out of the abyss and go to his destruction.
Again, I say the beast was, and yet is. That means the beast as the eighth king was not alive during the writing of revelation. But the spirit of the beast was alive in five kings before the writing of revelation, was in the one who was currently in rule, and the one who will come and go to his destruction.

I would think that the eighth king is the seventh king and the seventh king recieves the mortal wound and is healed.
The beast is also the ten kings because these have one mind and that is to give their authority to the beast for one hour. These will also make war against the Lamb and will fail because Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords. Why would John describe the beast as seven heads and ten horns; meaning seven kings and ten kings, if the did not compose the beast. The 'nature of the beast' belongs to all these kings, because they are opposed to Christ, thus making them antichrists and followers of Satan, whom himself opposes Christ.
Nero was not the man of sin we are watching for, because he persecuted the saints but did not do away with the law. Remember that the man of sin attempts to change the law. This, as Paul said, is done by apostasy. Because people will want others to tell them what their itching ears want and what pleases their lifestyles. Lawlessness can only abound where there is no love for the truth. The man of sin will attempt to change the law and ordinances and will persecute the believers. Whether Nero was of the beast during the time John recieved this revelation is beyond me, but Nero is not exactly the 'man of sin' we are specifically watching for.

The Lord Bless you, amen.

 

[James1979]

the seven heads that the red dragon(Satan) has means being head of the church. This is happening now, because those seven churches that is talked about in chp 2/3 is showing how worse it's going to get. Satan has the world covered, but you think he's gonna stop there. Of course not, he's target as already been the churches for quite some time now. And I firmly believe that he is the head of all churches today and of the world except he cannot rule over the believers.

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Ephesians 5:23

God Bless

 

[A4C]

Might I suggest a total new look at Revelation whereby it describes how God intends to close the book on all of the 7 covenants He has made with mankind and of the 7 "kings" of God's enemy who want to oppose Him

 

[vinsight4u]

...

 

[Justme]

HI forum,

I've drawn a blank on what places to look for five 'kings', Israel itself doesn't work, the United Nations as a world govenment doesn't work. As I said I did find that there have been five popes since Israel became a country in 1948. Well, there have been 5 popes, but what possible significance or what possible connection does that all make.

What I am looking for is any present day arrangemnet of five lings who have been, etc to fulfill Rev 17:10.

As far as actual 'kings' I don't see anything around that could have any connection. The king of England isn't going to cause much trouble and in fact she's a queen anyway.There are kings from Jordon and I'm having trouble figuring out anything there.

Ideas??

Justme

 

[A4C]

HI forum,

I've drawn a blank on what places to look for five 'kings', Israel itself doesn't work, the United Nations as a world govenment doesn't work. As I said I did find that there have been five popes since Israel became a country in 1948. Well, there have been 5 popes, but what possible significance or what possible connection does that all make.

What I am looking for is any present day arrangemnet of five lings who have been, etc to fulfill Rev 17:10.

As far as actual 'kings' I don't see anything around that could have any connection. The king of England isn't going to cause much trouble and in fact she's a queen anyway.There are kings from Jordon and I'm having trouble figuring out anything there.

Ideas??

Justme

Consider Satan's appointments of principalities over God's covenant peoples

 

[meebs]

could the kings you refer to actually be symbolisms of great empires that have ruled the earth like Rome, the british empire and whatever is inbetween ,etc? you could even say that the west (UN) now is like a great empire......

I dont know, im not a history buff, but remember Daniel and the explanation there....... (Nebuchadnezzar's dream - Dan 2:1-49)

Daniel is also a good endtimes prophesy book and i think should not be over looked! if you havent already read - Daniel chapters 7 - 12.

pray for wisdom regarding the end times.


2nd point - I think that each main leader of these "kingdoms" in charge may be those kings, maybe....... but i do think the anti-christ may be a human. It could also be symbolic, the beast may be a kingdom its self and the pit of fire is how this kingdom is dealt with by God how this overcomes a way of life, the kingdom could be "sin personified - given life" (and the ones before) and its representation.

ummmm some say that the woman that flees into the desert is Israel, if so that is a nation, and the dragon (a beast that is another nation - something that hasnt happened right now) and the boy she gave birth too is Jesus (note she has twelve stars on her head, this represents to 12 tribes) Rev 12:1-6

 

[Justme]

Hey Jellybrain,

Sounds as good a place to check as any.

Thank you,

Justme

 

[In Christ Forever]

As long as you know that revelation and the bible is about Christ's coming to establish His church and get rid of an "Old Church".
Why mention 7 "random" churches if it wasn't a more important part of revelation itself?
You will have a hard time identifying the 2 heads of the 7 heads[and an 8th being of the 7] unless you know what revelation is representing.
The 2 horns of the beast of the earth is interesing also, but that is a totally different topic. God bless.

reve 5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

 

[meebs]

confusing subject, isnt it? Thats why we need to pray for wisdom, but even then a lot wont be revealed till its over.

 

[Barraco]

HI forum,

I've drawn a blank on what places to look for five 'kings', Israel itself doesn't work, the United Nations as a world govenment doesn't work. As I said I did find that there have been five popes since Israel became a country in 1948. Well, there have been 5 popes, but what possible significance or what possible connection does that all make.

What I am looking for is any present day arrangemnet of five lings who have been, etc to fulfill Rev 17:10.

As far as actual 'kings' I don't see anything around that could have any connection. The king of England isn't going to cause much trouble and in fact she's a queen anyway.There are kings from Jordon and I'm having trouble figuring out anything there.

Ideas??

Justme

The answer is in the book of Revelation itself! Revelation 13 says that the beast has seven heads and ten horns with ten crowns on each horn.
It also says that each of the seven heads had a name of blasphemy!
These kings exhault themselves higher than the Lord GOD.
Remember ol' Nebuchadnezzar? After he exhaulted himself and wondering at Babylon saying, 'look what I have done!,' the LORD made him roam around on all fours like a beast! Nebuchadnezzar was the head of gold on the statue, and that statue is still standing, right?

 

[Barraco]

Here's some food for thought.

Consider Daniel 11. In Daniel 11, 7 kings of the North were described.
The sixth was Antiochus Epiphanes.

Antigonus first ruled Asia
Then Seleucus, with the help of Ptolemy, took over Asia
Then Antiochus Theos, as some called him 'the god'
Then Antiochus the Great
Then Seleucus Soter, also called Philopater
*Then Antiochus Epiphanes

Notice that John said that five had fallen, one is, and one will come but shall remain for a little while. He also said that the beast was, is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction.

Now, Antiochus was the last before the seventh king was mentioned, but Judas of Maccabees led his revolt which overthrew Antiochus Epiphanes, thus breaking the story and leaving it for later.

The man of sin is the last king. So possibly, maybe John was referring to Antiochus Epiphanes simply because he was the last one mentioned. Ofcourse John would have most likely said that six had fallen instead of five, only leaving the possibility that the king during his time was either of the same blood line of Antiochus or of the same spirit.
Notice that Antiochus Epiphanes caused the sacrifice and offering to cease and placed in the temple the abomination that causes desolation.
The Roman during 70 A.D. caused the sacrifice and offering to ceases by destroying the temple after sacrificing to their gods on the altar. Consider that Vespasian was king at that time though, and not Titus.

I dunno, just food for thought....what do you think?

 

[brinley45cal]

Let me try to clear this up for you.
The seven heads are seven hills,and they are also seven kings.The word kings can also be translated kingdoms.It makes more sense in this case to say the seven heads are seven kingdoms,because history and scripture reveal that there have been seven gentile world kingdoms.
Five have fallen are the five gentile world kingdoms (Assyrian,Medo-persian,greek,egyption and babylonian) that existed before johns lifetime.One is refers to the sixth kingdom (roman) that existed during johns lifetime, and the others has not yet come refers to a seventh future kingdom (the revived roman empire) which will exist after johns lifetime. This seventh kingdom will remain (he must remain for a little while) for the duration of the seven year tribulation period.

 

[Barraco]

Let me try to clear this up for you.
The seven heads are seven hills,and they are also seven kings.The word kings can also be translated kingdoms.It makes more sense in this case to say the seven heads are seven kingdoms,because history and scripture reveal that there have been seven gentile world kingdoms.
Five have fallen are the five gentile world kingdoms (Assyrian,Medo-persian,greek,egyption and babylonian) that existed before johns lifetime.One is refers to the sixth kingdom (roman) that existed during johns lifetime, and the others has not yet come refers to a seventh future kingdom (the revived roman empire) which will exist after johns lifetime. This seventh kingdom will remain (he must remain for a little while) for the duration of the seven year tribulation period.

While I understand where you are coming from, take in consideration that the beast didn't start at Assyria because the other four beasts didn't exist either, because they hadn't overrun Israel yet. The kings are not kingdoms because that would mean that only 3 had fallen at the time: Babylon, Medo/Persia, and Greece. It was with Babylon that God declared desolations on the Jews and Jerusalem. Assyria has nothing to do with it. Niether does Egypt because even in Daniel 11, when the man of sin is on the rampage, he fights the king of the South, which is in Egypt, meaning Egypt has no empire. Thought the Egyptians under Ptolemy did capture the Jews and treat them harshly, that was short lived. If considering this, that would make only four kingdoms having fallen instead of five, because Rome hadn't fallen yet.
Assyria is out of the question because they never took over Jerusalem, instead they were swallowed by the Babylonian Empire. Thanks and the Lord bless you.

 

[A4C]

If we look at Revelation with the eyes of God (the macro picture) rather than the eyes of man (rather limited scope) we might begin to get a better picture.
Now on the basis that Revelation is the final chapter of God's dealing with mankind on earth, and of the dealing with the seven covenants He has made with him, then after five covenants are dealt with, five kings (Satans opposition to those ) would have fallen there would be one being dealt with and there would be one yet to be dealt with.

Is it not rather simple?

 

[Justme]

Hi A4C,

Tell us more about these five covenants and also how there will be any future 'covenants,' like after the covenant that begins at the cross. Or do you consider that as something different?

Justme

 

[Justme]

Hi Barraco,

The Roman during 70 A.D. caused the sacrifice and offering to ceases by destroying the temple after sacrificing to their gods on the altar. Consider that Vespasian was king at that time though, and not Titus.

Vesparian was the roman emporor I thought, but Titus finally came to Jerusalem to wage the war. Titus did become ruler later.

If you consider the Roman rulers who were there during the lifetime of Christ you find there are five up to when John has the vision. Augustua, up to 14 AD , I forget a couple , Nero to 68, then Vesparian and Titus was there and returned later as ruler.

In 69 AD there was some kind of power struggle in the Roman empire and 4 guys came and went somehow. Maybe someone here knows how that worked.

Nero's name apparently computes to 666, but so does just about all others.

As far as the sacrifice ceasing, that fits and the abomination appears 1260 days within that. That would also fit with Nero's army.

Concerning present time, someone PM'ed me a link to where a group felt all these world empires of the past made up the first five and the new world govenment would eventually be in power. I didn;t save the link it, was just a statement and had no evidence with it to back anything up.

I haven't seen anything that points to a present day combibnation yet.

Justme

 

[Barraco]

Hi Barraco,

Vesparian was the roman emporor I thought, but Titus finally came to Jerusalem to wage the war. Titus did become ruler later.

If you consider the Roman rulers who were there during the lifetime of Christ you find there are five up to when John has the vision. Augustua, up to 14 AD , I forget a couple , Nero to 68, then Vesparian and Titus was there and returned later as ruler.

In 69 AD there was some kind of power struggle in the Roman empire and 4 guys came and went somehow. Maybe someone here knows how that worked.

Nero's name apparently computes to 666, but so does just about all others.

As far as the sacrifice ceasing, that fits and the abomination appears 1260 days within that. That would also fit with Nero's army.

Concerning present time, someone PM'ed me a link to where a group felt all these world empires of the past made up the first five and the new world govenment would eventually be in power. I didn;t save the link it, was just a statement and had no evidence with it to back anything up.

I haven't seen anything that points to a present day combibnation yet.

Justme

I can tell you this much, Nero isn't the beast. Perhaps he is of the beast, but is not the man of sin/8th king because for one, Nero never caused the abomination that causes desolation, nor caused the sacrifice and offering to cease. Titus did surround and destroy Jerusalem, and did cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease, but he was not king at the time, he was a prince; but more like a general. Also, it wasn't four kings that fell, it was three: Galbo, Otho, and Vitellius, they call it the 'year of four kings' because Vespasian became king after Vietellius. Before he got to Rome, though, Domitian was put as his vicar(someone who ruled in his sted) until he came to Rome. It was then that the duty was handed over to Titus to take care of the rebellion in Jerusalem. So thus the kings would have gone like this:
1)Augustus
2)Tiberius
3)Caius; also called Caligula
4)Claudius
5)Nero
6)Galba
7)Otho
8)Vitellius
9)Domitian; vicar until Vespasian came to Rome to claim the throne
10)Vespasian
11)Titus
12)Domitian

I assure you that the seven kings go further than the kings of Rome during Jesus's time. These kings have names of blasphemy, five of whom had fallen before the writing of Revelation, and one who was alive at the time, and one who was to come and remain for a little while. The mystery of all this is that the beast himself shared his characteristics with seven previous kings:
1)they were blasphemers who exalted themselves above the Lord despite their knowledge of him
2)they were rulers of Gentile world kingdoms
3)they persecuted the saints
4)they attempted to do away with the law
5)they took away or attempted to take away sacrifice and oblation.

Such kings fit this description:
1)Nebuchadnezzar
2)Antiochus Epiphanes
3)Caius Caligula
4)Nero
5)Domitian

These men exalted themselves over the Most High, persecuted the saints, attempted to change the law, attempted to desolate the temple by setting up abominations, made show of slaughtering the saints, scattered the saints, exiled the saints, and even went as far as to call themselves a god and to demand others to do so. There may be more to the list, but I'm just naming some of the few.

 

[A4C]

Hi A4C,

Tell us more about these five covenants and also how there will be any future 'covenants,' like after the covenant that begins at the cross. Or do you consider that as something different?

Justme

The way I see it is that the seven have been established -ours being the last.
Jesus said often that the last will be first meaning that in the last days our covenant will be the first dealt with. Each will then be dealt with in reverse order to how they were established, ie the Law follows when that covenant is "confirmed" (Dan 9:27 )

 

[Justme]

Hi Barraco,

Does the five that have fallen really have to have fallen before revelation was written? Can John not be speaking from a future point in time...or from a time in the past for that matter?

Speaking of the taking away of the daily sacrifice however, there is no need to consider anything whatsoever about sacrifices today. Sacrifice is over and forever done with since the cross.

So show me more on this beast being connected with the taking away of sacrifices.

Justme