five have fallen, one is, and one is yet to come and there is also the eighth...

[Xenon]

I believe you are referring to the fall of the Ottoman Empire in 1840.

The war waged against the Sultan of Turkey in 1840 actually ended in 1841 without significant changes in territory. From 1783 to 1914, the boundaries of the Ottoman Empire were increasingly reduced through a series of defeats. During WWI, Turkey allied with Germany and lost even more territory. Today, historians widely agree that the Ottoman Empire ended during WWI. In 1923, the Grand National Assembly of Turkey proclaimed Turkey to be a republic and Turkey remains a sovereign nation to this day.

History does not validate that the Ottoman Empire fell on August 11, 1840 and it is no surprise that history does not give August 11, 1840 any significance in Turkish history.

• The treaty was literally called, "Convention for the Pacification of the Levant". Levant was a term for the Ottoman Empire. Pacification would prevent it from doing any harm. And a key attribute of the 6th trumpet is that the power would "kill".
  
• It was signed by the Ottoman Empire.
• It made the Ottoman Empire subject to European powers, whom it had been fighting.
  
• It was delivered on the predicted date: August 11, 1840. A treaty does no good unless both parties are aware of it. August 11, 1840 was that date.

This is all I'm going to say publicly. I'll send the rest in a private message and delete my previous post. It should have been sent privately, and I apologize for not doing so. If you wish to delete your quote of my post, you may.

 

[MidnightCry]

Xenon,

No offense taken.

I am glad that you are so passionate about your beliefs and that you are able to defend them. That is the way it should be.

Keep on studying. Perhaps one day you will have a different view of things.It is good to also keep an eye on current events, new developments in science and space technology, and the direction our government is going.

No one knows when the great tribulation will begin, but I believe God gives us clues that tell us where we are on a timeline. We just need to pay attention, pray and listen for His still, quiet voice to guide us.

YSIC,
MidnightCry

 

[stinsonmarri]

NumberOneSon

That’s the faith I was referring to as well. None of the barbarian tribes in the West were Catholic at the time when the “Heruli”, Vandal, and Ostrogothic kingdoms were becoming powerful; they were all either pagan or Arian. Like I said before, the first of the kingdoms to convert to Catholic Christianity were the Franks in the 6th Century, but that only happened some 15 years after the fall of Odoacer’s “Heruli” kingdom in Italy in 493AD. Before that, they were all Arian or pagan.​

In 380, Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire by the decree of the Emperor, which would persist until the fall of the Western Empire, and later, with the Eastern Roman Empire, until the Fall of Constantinople. During this time (the period of the Seven Ecumenical Councils) there were considered five primary sees according to Eusebius: Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria, known as the Pentarchy.

After the destruction of the western Roman Empire, the church in the West was a major factor in the preservation of classical civilization, establishing monasteries, and sending missionaries to convert the peoples of northern Europe, as far as Ireland in the north. ​

The French and German monarchies descending from the empire ruled by Charlemagne as Holy Roman Emperor cover most of Europe.From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​

I do not know where you studied your history but Constantine the Great already ruled Europe. Because of Arius' preaching against the divinity of Yashua, the Nicea First Council met by the order of Constantine. Now if you understand many of the pagan customs were adopted by the Church. That is what I have been stating all alone. Arianism was a monkey wrench of Satan to cause a clink in the prophetic vision of Daniel that the Papacy would come as both a religious and secular power. It did it prevail and it will be destroyed under Elohim's plans. History also shows that three kingdoms I stated were destroyed without any relations of these tribes today-end of story. I think you need to brush on a lot on ancient history. Not bragging but I have a degree in history with two specialties, Biblical and Afrikan.​

Here is some more information that you need to read.

From Bononia they crossed the Channel to Britain and made their way to Eboracum (York), capital of the province of Britannia Secunda and home to a large military base. Constantine was able to spend a year in northern Britain at his father's side, campaigning against the Picts beyond Hadrian's Wall in the summer and autumn. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

By the early fourth century, Christians formed a significant minority of the population of the Roman Empire, estimated at around ten per cent. When Constantine became the Roman Emperor, he gave Christianity state patronage and expended considerable state funds on a major program of church building and maintenance. When German tribes were conquered, Constantine required as part of the peace treaty that they convert to Christianity. Soon Christians were to be found throughout the empire. Before the end of the fourth century, Christianity was declared the state religion of the Roman Empire, and the public worship of the old gods was banned. wiki answers.​

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

 

[stinsonmarri]

Midnight,​

I can give you EGW message from Yashua it is up to you to fast and pray to see if these things are so!​

Daniel and Revelation must be studied, as well as the other prophecies of the Old and New Testaments. There is need of a much closer study of the word of Elohim; especially should Daniel and the Revelation have attention as never before in the history of our work. We may have less to say in some lines, in regards to the Roman power and the papacy; but we should call attention to what the prophets and apostles have written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of Elohim. Read the book of Daniel. Call up, point by point, the history of the kingdoms there represented. When the books of Daniel and Revelation are better understood, believers will have an entirely different religious experience. A wonderful connection is seen between the universe of heaven and this world. The things revealed to Daniel were afterward complemented by the revelation made to John on the Isle of Patmos. These two books should be carefully studied. The book of Daniel is unsealed in the revelation to John, and carries us forward to the last scenes of this earth’s history.

Will our brethren bear in mind that we are living amid the perils of the last days? Read Revelation in connection with Daniel. Teach these things. Those who eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Elohim will bring from the books of Daniel and Revelation truth that is inspired by the Holy Spirit. They will start into action forces that cannot be repressed. The lips of children will be opened to proclaim the mysteries that have been hidden from the minds of men. Study Revelation in connection with Daniel, for history will be repeated. . . . We, with all our religious advantages, ought to know far more today than we do know. Angels desire to look into the truths that are revealed to the people who with contrite hearts are searching the word of Elohim and praying for greater lengths and breadths and depths and heights of the knowledge, which, He alone can give. As we near the close of this world’s history, the prophecies relating to the last days especially demand our study. The last book of the New Testament Scriptures is full of truth that we need to understand. Satan has blinded the minds of many so that they have been glad of any excuse for not making the Revelation their study. The perils of the last days are upon us, and in our work, we are to warn the people of the danger they are in. Let not the solemn scenes which prophecy has revealed be left untouched. If our people were half-awake, if they realized the nearness of the events portrayed in the Revelation, a reformation would be wrought in our churches, and many more would believe the message. We have no time to lose; Elohim calls upon us to watch for souls as they that must give an account. Advance new principles, and crowd in the clear-cut truth. It will be as a sword cutting both ways. But be not too ready to take a controversial attitude. There will be times when we must stand still and see the salvation of Elohim. Let Daniel speak, let the Revelation speak, and tell what is truth.We do not go deep enough in our search for truth. Every soul who believes present truth will be brought where he will be required to give a reason of the hope that is in him. The people of Elohim will be called upon to stand before kings, princes, rulers, and great men of the earth, and they must know that they do know what is truth. TM 112, 114, 116, 118, 120

If you do not understand the historical time about the fourth beast that was totally different, what can I say! Here you see the beast's feet stamps (a bear-Persia), mouth of a lion (Babylon), brass claws (Greece) and iron teeth (Rome) in Rev 13:1 the same features the feet of bear, the head of a lion and a body of a leopard. Now Daniel was concentrated on a specific period of time dealing with the seven horns. But John dealt with the ten horn with and without crowns and seven heads attached to his head also the beast full of sin. Again dealing the complete historical event through the life span of this beast. Both John and Daniel saw the beast destroyed. (Dan 7:10; Rev 19: 20) If you want to hold on to Uriah Smith false views go right ahead because EGW did not. All I can do is give you the truth, but I cannot make you drink that is the Holy Spirit job to those who are seeking understanding of truth for these last days.

May YAHWEH reveal the truth to all that earnestly seek His mystery through faith by the power of the Holy Spirit,
stinsonmarri

 

[stinsonmarri]

Xenon,​

I do agree with Midnight on one point about EGW and that is some of her writings were her opinions and not Biblical. But her inspired writings were through the Holy Spirit and you can find it in the Bible. Let me give an example, she wrote in "Message to the Young People" that we should have a Christmas tree in the church and give presents to our children. WRONG! You will not find this at all in the Bible instead the opposite. ​

Thus saith YAHWEH, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good. Jer 10:2-5​

The SDA Church has made her and all her writings above the Bible and that is wrong. They also claim she was the cofounder of this church, which also wrong. Hiram Edison and others founded the Seventh-day Adventist Church. EGW was a young girl when this church was founded. Here is the facts from the Church records but they over looks this historical accounts.​

The following day in answer to their prayers for light, Elohim opened to Edson - as if in a vision - a scene of wonderment, Yashua, our High Priest, entering into the Most Holy place of the Heavenly Sanctuary to begin a special work of judgment prior to His return. Edson shared this light with his friends, Owen Crosier and Dr. F. B. Hahn of nearby Canandaigua. They determined to study the sanctuary and its cleansing from the Biblical viewpoint. The results of their research appeared in their little advent paper published in Canandaigua, the Day Dawn. Later also in the Day Star, Cincinnati. From this point on, light came to the disappointed Adventists and the “why” of their pain and disappointment began to dawn upon them.​

Her First Vision. One morning in December 1844, at a time when many Millerites were wavering in their faith and others were disavowing their recent experience, Ellen Harmon joined four other women in family worship at the home of a close friend, Mrs. Haines, in south Portland. While the group was praying, she experienced her first vision, in which she witnessed a representation of the travels of the Adventist people to the City of Elohim (EW 13–17; 1T 58–61;LS 64–67). She was only 17 years old at the time. When she related this vision to the Adventist group in Portland, they accepted it as light from Elohim. In response to a later vision, Ellen reluctantly started out, traveling with friends and relatives as opportunity afforded, to relate to the scattered companies of Adventists what she had seen in the first and other visions that followed.[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'] [/font]IMS Media Online Adventist Library​

Many other pioneers worked to organized this Church, EGW became a messenger for the Church but did not understand all that she wrote at the time. However, as she grew older and wiser she realize that light will come to those who seek Elohim with all their heart and they will unravel the mysteries of prophecies of both Daniel and Revelation in these last days. Many things she recanted and many doctrines that we believe today she never accepted it. One in particular was the trinity and much more!​

Blessings,​

stinsonmarri​

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

NumberOneSon​

That’s the faith I was referring to as well. None of the barbarian tribes in the West were Catholic at the time when the “Heruli”, Vandal, and Ostrogothic kingdoms were becoming powerful; they were all either pagan or Arian. Like I said before, the first of the kingdoms to convert to Catholic Christianity were the Franks in the 6th Century, but that only happened some 15 years after the fall of Odoacer’s “Heruli” kingdom in Italy in 493AD. Before that, they were all Arian or pagan.​

In 380, Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire by the decree of the Emperor, which would persist until the fall of the Western Empire, and later, with the Eastern Roman Empire, until the Fall of Constantinople. During this time (the period of the Seven Ecumenical Councils) there were considered five primary sees according to Eusebius: Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria, known as the Pentarchy.

After the destruction of the western Roman Empire, the church in the West was a major factor in the preservation of classical civilization, establishing monasteries, and sending missionaries to convert the peoples of northern Europe, as far as Ireland in the north. ​

The French and German monarchies descending from the empire ruled by Charlemagne as Holy Roman Emperor cover most of Europe.From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​

I do not know where you studied your history but Constantine the Great already ruled Europe. Because of Arius' preaching against the divinity of Yashua, the Nicea First Council met by the order of Constantine. Now if you understand many of the pagan customs were adopted by the Church. That is what I have been stating all alone. Arianism was a monkey wrench of Satan to cause a clink in the prophetic vision of Daniel that the Papacy would come as both a religious and secular power. It did it prevail and it will be destroyed under Elohim's plans. History also shows that three kingdoms I stated were destroyed without any relations of these tribes today-end of story. I think you need to brush on a lot on ancient history. Not bragging but I have a degree in history with two specialties, Biblical and Afrikan.​

Here is some more information that you need to read.

From Bononia they crossed the Channel to Britain and made their way to Eboracum (York), capital of the province of Britannia Secunda and home to a large military base. Constantine was able to spend a year in northern Britain at his father's side, campaigning against the Picts beyond Hadrian's Wall in the summer and autumn. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

By the early fourth century, Christians formed a significant minority of the population of the Roman Empire, estimated at around ten per cent. When Constantine became the Roman Emperor, he gave Christianity state patronage and expended considerable state funds on a major program of church building and maintenance. When German tribes were conquered, Constantine required as part of the peace treaty that they convert to Christianity. Soon Christians were to be found throughout the empire. Before the end of the fourth century, Christianity was declared the state religion of the Roman Empire, and the public worship of the old gods was banned. wiki answers.​

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

For someone as learned as yourself in history, what are you c&p from wiki?
Does this information jive with established historical accounts? I'm not saying it doesn't, I am just surprised at your sourcing... that's something a dummy like me would use...lol

 

[MidnightCry]

Stinsonmarri,

Thank you for your most interesting reply.

I understand the identity of the fourth beast in Daniel 7.

History confirms the ten horns of Daniel 7 have come and gone. History also confirms the little horn ruled over the nations of Europe for 1,260 years before it was wounded in 1798.

The ten horns of Daniel 7 are not the same ten horns found in Revelation 13 and 17. The ten horns in Daniel 7 appeared around AD 476 at the fall of the Roman empire, and three of the original ten horns were uprooted within 60 years of AD 476 by the Church of Rome over a religious dispute on the eternal co-existence of Jesus with the Father.

The ten horns in Revelation 13 and 17 have not yet appeared. They will appear during the very last days of Earth's history and will be empowered for a very short time just before the Second Coming. (Rev. 17:12) There are two sets of ten horns in Bible prophecy, because there is an important parallel between them. The ten horns in Daniel 7 were reduced to seven horns after three were uprooted. Then, the little horn of Daniel 7 dominated the remaining seven horns as the eighth king.

In Revelation 13, there is a beast that rises out of the sea having seven heads and ten horns. This beast is not the Roman empire of Daniel 7. This beast will be a diverse world empire made up of seven heads (seven religious systems) and ten horns (ten political powers) during the Great Tribulation. When the devil appears on Earth pretending to be God, he will rule over the seven heads as an eighth king. (Rev 17:11) The parallel here is obvious. The devil will rule with absolute power over the seven religious systems of the world just like the papacy (the little horn) ruled over the seven kings (the seven horns) it dominated. The devil will divide the Earth into ten sectors and he will appoint ten kings to rule as puppet kings of his kingdom.

Daniel 2:44 says during the time of these kings, that is, the ten kings, the God of Heaven will set up His kingdom. Just like there are ten toes there will be ten kings, the Second Coming occurs while the ten kings are ruling over earth. (Daniel 2:44, Revelation 17:14)

YSIC,
MidnightCry

 

[NumberOneSon]

In 380, Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire by the decree of the Emperor, which would persist until the fall of the Western Empire, and later, with the Eastern Roman Empire, until the Fall of Constantinople.

Agreed. However, prior to this decree there was a period of time in which one of Constantine’s sons (Emperor Constantius II) favored Arian Christianity, and an Arian bishop named Ulfilas was sent as a missionary among the Goths in their lands. His efforts in the 4th Century led to the conversion of the Goths to Arian Christianity and Ulfilas’ handiwork led to the acceptance of Arianism among many of the Western Germanic tribes until, by the end of the 5th-Century, all of the Western tribes who had embraced Christianity held Arius’ Christology. The Roman majority throughout Europe were most definitely of the Nicene religion approved in 380AD, but their Germanic overlords were entirely Arian or pagan. There wasn't a Nicene tribe among them yet.

Since you approved of Gibbon in a previous post, I’ll let him explain it:

”The apostle of the Goths (Ulfilas) subscribed to the creed of Rimini; professed with freedom, and perhaps with sincerity, that the Son was not equal or cosubstantial to the Father; communicated these errors to the clergy and people; and infected the Barbaric world with a heresy which the great Theodosius proscribed and extinguished among the Romans. The temper and understanding of the new proselytes were not adapted to metaphysical subtleties; but they strenuously maintained what they had piously received, as the pure and genuine doctrines of Christianity. The advantage of preaching and expounding the Scriptures in the Teutonic language promoted the apostolic labours of Ulphilas and his successors; and they ordained a competent number of bishops and presbyters, for the instruction of the kindred tribes. The Ostrogoths (and Visigoths), the Burgundians, the Suevi, and the Vandals, who had listened to the eloquence of the Latin clergy, preferred the more intelligible lessons of their domestic teachers; and Arianism was adopted as the national faith of the warlike converts who were seated on the ruins of the Western empire.”
(History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Gibbon, Vol. IV, pg. 80-81)

During this time (the period of the Seven Ecumenical Councils) there were considered five primary sees according to Eusebius: Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria, known as the Pentarchy.
The French and German monarchies descending from the empire ruled by Charlemagne as Holy Roman Emperor cover most of Europe.From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Again, agreed.

I do not know where you studied your history but Constantine the Great already ruled Europe.

Indeed, he and his progeny ruled Europe in the first half of the 4th Century. But my disagreement with you stems from claims you made concerning Europe in the late 5th Century during the time when the “three kingdoms” (the “Heruli”, Vandals, Ostrogoths) were becoming powerful. The Germanic tribes, not the Roman emperors, were ruling Europe by that point. After the so-called "Fall of Rome" in 476AD, there would no longer be any imperial rule in the West until the time of Justinian.

I had originally questioned your claim, “many of the ten kingdoms kept the faith but three and the three kingdoms were becoming powerful”, and I responded by saying that none of the barbarian tribes held the Catholic faith at that point in history; they were all either Arian or pagan, and that was true. The Germanic tribe that got the Catholic ball rolling was Clovis and the Franks in 508AD.

Because of Arius' preaching against the divinity of Yashua, the Nicea First Council met by the order of Constantine.

Arius didn’t preach against Jesus’ divinity. He believed that Jesus was divine and God. The problem was, he preached that Jesus had been created at some point, and was not equal to the Father. So to Arius, although Jesus was not eternal, he was still divine.

“Arius taught that God the Father and the Son did not exist together eternally. He taught that the pre-incarnate Jesus was a divine being created by (and therefore inferior to) God the Father at some point, before which the Son did not exist. In English-language works, it is sometimes said that Arians believe that Jesus is or was a ‘creature’; in the sense of ‘created being’….Arius taught that Jesus Christ was divine and was sent to earth for the salvation of mankind but that Jesus Christ was not equal to the Father (infinite, primordial origin) and to the Holy Spirit (giver of life).”
(The Arian Christian Doctrines, Charles D. Levy, pg. 72-73,76)

Now if you understand many of the pagan customs were adopted by the Church. That is what I have been stating all alone. Arianism was a monkey wrench of Satan to cause a clink in the prophetic vision of Daniel that the Papacy would come as both a religious and secular power. It did it prevail and it will be destroyed under Elohim's plans.

I certainly understand that you believe Arianism was Satan’s monkey wrench.

History also shows that three kingdoms I stated were destroyed without any relations of these tribes today-end of story.

That’s a bit of an assumption, one that I’m not quite as willing to make as you are, based on my reading of Procopius as well as the Liber Pontificalis. I agree the kingdoms were destroyed, but the people themselves (especially the Heruli and Ostrogoths) were not wiped out; in fact, one of the Heruli kings named Gretes was baptized in Constantinople in 527AD and this began a process of Heruli conversion to Catholic Christianity.

It’s definitely possible that there are people alive today with bloodlines tracing back to the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths. We probably couldn’t identify who those people are, but the truth is we’d face the same difficulty trying to identify modern descendents of the Sueves, Visigoths, Lombards, etc. But I agree with your main point, that those kingdoms were destroyed.

I think you need to brush on a lot on ancient history.

Sure; I always need that advice. I’m a big proponent of the old adage, “the more I know, the more I realize I don’t know”.

On the other hand, if you maintain that many of the ten kingdoms kept the Catholic faith while three did not, you would probably be best served to follow your own advice and do some brushing up of your own.

Not bragging but I have a degree in history with two specialties, Biblical and Afrikan.

That’s good to know…however, I’m not quite sure how your specialization in those particular fields of study have any bearing on discussions concerning Western Roman history (save for the Vandals in North Africa, of course).

“Here is some more information that you need to read.

From Bononia they crossed the Channel to Britain and made their way to Eboracum (York), capital of the province of Britannia Secunda and home to a large military base. Constantine was able to spend a year in northern Britain at his father's side, campaigning against the Picts beyond Hadrian's Wall in the summer and autumn. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

By the early fourth century, Christians formed a significant minority of the population of the Roman Empire, estimated at around ten per cent. When Constantine became the Roman Emperor, he gave Christianity state patronage and expended considerable state funds on a major program of church building and maintenance. When German tribes were conquered, Constantine required as part of the peace treaty that they convert to Christianity. Soon Christians were to be found throughout the empire. Before the end of the fourth century, Christianity was declared the state religion of the Roman Empire, and the public worship of the old gods was banned. wiki answers.

Well, I guess its possible that Constantine forced some of the conquered to convert to Christianity…although your anonymous source does seem to conflict with Peter Leithart’s assessment that, “he (Constantine) did not adopt a policy of forced conversion, did not punish pagans for being pagans or Jews for being Jews. Pagans remained at his court and were given weighty responsibilities in the empire.”(Defending Constantine, pg. 302) . I agree with EastCoast; you'd be best served sticking to established historical accounts to make your arguments.

I know there are accounts of Emperor Valens allowing Goths to enter the empire based on their conversion to Christianity….however, Valens was an Arian emperor, so even if those stories were true, the Goths would have been forced to convert to Arian Christianity, which coincides with my position, lol.

If Constantine ever made Nicene Christianity a requirement for some of the barbarians, it certainly wasn’t a requirement that survived his death….and the Germanic/Celtic groups that carved kingdoms out of the West in the 5th-Century did so long after Constantine was dead and buried. In 476AD, the Franks, Alammani, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Britons, and Lombards were still pagan, while tribes like the Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Burgundians, Suevi, Vandals, Rugians (and possibly the Heruli) were identified as Arian tribes. None of the aforementioned groups held to Nicene orthodoxy at that point in history, I'm afraid; can you provide an example of a 5th-Century tribe that was orthodox?


NumberOneSon

 

[stinsonmarri]

For someone as learned as yourself in history, what are you c&p from wiki?
Does this information jive with established historical accounts? I'm not saying it doesn't, I am just surprised at your sourcing... that's something a dummy like me would use...lol

Wow! I am truly shock to hear that coming from you! I always keep it simple but factual. I do not use any sources unless I check out the references. I have many books here on my shelves from Sumer, Egypt, Assyrians, Medes/Persians, Greece, Greco-Rome and much more.​

Wikipedia is one of the best online information sources today. It also will state clearly if an article is presented that the source does not have adequate references so that you can be aware. Since you question if my sources "jive," so to speak with excellent references, I will like to provide them for you. In addition, Wiki if you notice is related to Wikipedia. It answers questions and it is a subsidiary of Wikimedia Foundation, Inc, which I am an editor member.​

Western Civilizations: Their History and Their Culture, Vol. 2 (I have a later version on my shelf)

Cambridge Medieval History: Germany and the Western Empire (Kindle)

Eusebius, Life of Constantine Medieval Sourcebook: Banning of Other Religions.​

"Arianism," The Oxford dictionary of the Christian church​

Caesar and Christ the Catholic Encyclopedia​

You knew my background because I presented it to you on various occasions. I think that this is a sort of snobbish comment based on what I have presented to you from the Bible over the many discussions you and I had. I have articles that I am working on now that will be out shortly. I use many sources on the web through eBooks and kindle, including the Dead Sea Scroll, which is in my possession. I tell you what would like me to send you a pictures of all my books because I have in various shelves in my house and numerous of them in shed out back? There is no place to house all of them.

Blessings,​

stinsonmarri

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Wow! I am truly shock to hear that coming from you! I always keep it simple but factual. I do not use any sources unless I check out the references. I have many books here on my shelves from Sumer, Egypt, Assyrians, Medes/Persians, Greece, Greco-Rome and much more.​

Wikipedia is one of the best online information sources today. It also will state clearly if an article is presented that the source does not have adequate references so that you can be aware. Since you question if my sources "jive," so to speak with excellent references, I will like to provide them for you. In addition, Wiki if you notice is related to Wikipedia. It answers questions and it is a subsidiary of Wikimedia Foundation, Inc, which I am an editor member.​

Western Civilizations: Their History and Their Culture, Vol. 2 (I have a later version on my shelf)

Cambridge Medieval History: Germany and the Western Empire (Kindle)

Eusebius, Life of Constantine Medieval Sourcebook: Banning of Other Religions.​

"Arianism," The Oxford dictionary of the Christian church​

Caesar and Christ the Catholic Encyclopedia​

You knew my background because I presented it to you on various occasions. I think that this is a sort of snobbish comment based on what I have presented to you from the Bible over the many discussions you and I had. I have articles that I am working on now that will be out shortly. I use many sources on the web through eBooks and kindle, including the Dead Sea Scroll, which is in my possession. I tell you what would like me to send you a pictures of all my books because I have in various shelves in my house and numerous of them in shed out back? There is no place to house all of them.

Blessings,​

stinsonmarri

I just never thought scholars used Wiki as reference... my bad.

 

[stinsonmarri]

Midnight​

You really do not understand because I stated that the beast is the same through periods of time. If you truly understood history, you would know they have not gone. The Europe nations today are from the original ten horns. Even though three were plucked up, the number 10 is symbolic and identified by these European kingdoms as nations today. Even the Evangelical understands that when Europe united under the Euro dollar, they felt this was the "mark of the beast." These kingdoms are also the ten toes in Daniel Chapter 2 and the stone is the Savior returning to set up His kingdom. The problem is that the SDA church wants to follow the chronological event given to a king that did not know the truth like Israel did. YAHWEH met him on the level of his understanding. What was presented to Daniel was for the people of Elohim especially today. If you had read what I wrote previously on this forum, I mention about the uprooted of the three horns. I also wrote about the little horn that still exist today but not as a secular power. I suggest you go back and read all that I wrote. ​

The ten horns of Revelation appeared to both prophets, but Daniel was permitted to focus on a certain period of time. His focus was how the Papacy became a kingdom, which also introduced Greco-Rome. John sees the horns during the middle ages with crowns. Same horns that represent the kings of Europe where in Daniel they were no horns because they were in their tribal states when the little horn plucks three of them up.​

Revelation goes back in time as it did with the churches in the first three chapters up to our time now. What is presented is a historical event dealing with the most powerful false religion against Elohim. When America came into power, Europe still had kings even up to the 18 and 1900's. America was the first to change the tide and move from a king to a president and others followed. ​

I wish that you could understand that the number six is symbolic of man. Man was once seven but after Adam, sinned man became imperfect. The 666 is the number of man during certain periods of time. In Revelation 17, the angels gives clues that you must put together that is why it is a mystery and I pray for us all to get understanding. The angels historically goes back to the first man that caused Elohim to come down from Heaven. I urge that you read Gen 10:8-11; 11:1-9 because it needs to be understood and you must put these verses together. There is more I could say about what happen on the plains of Shinar but I will say this Elohim did not come out of Heaven just to knock over a tower. He sent two angels to warn Lot before fire came out of Heaven. Follow line upon line and precepts upon precepst and please realize that the Father will reveals His secrets to His servants that seek Him for understanding. The beast that "was," imperfect (6) was Nimrod, the father of all false religions. The beast "is not" (6) was the religo-secular papacy because he was the head that was wounded and also the one that united false religions again under one umbrella. The beast "yet is," is the beast himself who comes out of the Catholic Church "the seventh," and he will be destroyed by the "burning flames."I keep trying to explain to you that ten means universal. The beast will chose men that never had a kingdom but he will give them power as kings but they will turn their power fully over to him. This will be during the sixth trumpet and the sixth plagues. The Evangelical has a portion of this right in some of their movies! ​

The little horn was only in Daniel that became a head and was wounded in 1798 when she lost her secular power. She is the harlot and she will be destroyed by the beast and his armies. That is the battle of Armageddon because it is between two evil foes. Once the papacy is out the way, the beast will turn to destroyed Elohim's scatter flock. Yashua will not have to fight him because the Bible says that whatever He speaks will destroy the nations. The verb "to make" war means the beast will be preparing to fight while the verb "make" alone is ready to act! Yashua was ready to act and he takes the beast and gives him up to the burning flame. (Dan 7:11) See the two verses before about the judgment that begins in 1844 which again is another clue that the fourth beast, the Papacy will all be around until the end of time! I never said that the fourth beast was the Roman Empire the Roman Empire is part of the beast. Where do you see that the devil rules the Bible say he gave his seat (you need to understand the clue where that is), his power (now what power is referring to her another clue of something that is a mystery), and authority (what authority does he have another clue) and the clues do not refer to this earth!!!!! You want to make the serpent beast to be the beast of a lion, leopard body, feet of a bear, that's not even going to work. Tthe Evangelical's believe that the beast is the devil but he is not and that is not in the Bible. He will give his power, seat and authority to himself????
Finally, here is a good one what is the bottomless pit??? Line upon line and precepts upon precepts, here a little and there a little and then you put it all together with serious prayer and then along with your history books will you find the clues to Elohim's mystery!​

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

 

[stinsonmarri]

NumberOneSon,

What I claim is that they became under Catholicism but the church accepted their paganism beliefs. The same today is Afrikan religions in Cuba and the other islands. Even the Catholic belief is pagan but it united all the pagan beliefs under one umbrella. We are saying the same thing I understand that the Goth kept many of their beliefs so did all of Europe. The names of the week we have today are from European deities. Christmas, Easter, Halloween, Valentine are all pagan beliefs that the Catholic Church adopted into the church. Mistle toes is a homosexual love kiss of the Celtics before they went out to war. The ornaments on the Christmas tree also comes from the Celtic. They worship the evergreen tree (which most cultures do), they would take the skulls of the slain, clean them and place candles inside and hang them on the trees. Rabbits and chicken eggs are both old Roman beliefs that deal with birth. Santa Clause coming down the chimney is suppose to be the Norse and Vikin female goddess Frigdda. There is so much more but time will not permit me. But we are on the same page really we are.

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

 

[MidnightCry]

stinsonmarri,

Obviously you cannot change my thinking and I cannot change yours. All we can do is continue to study God's Word and try and fit the puzzle together.

I am convinced, however, that you are wrong. Their will be a future power made up of religious and civil powers that will persecute the saints of God. This time, instead of a religious power doing the persecuting, the civil power will do what the religious power says and will persecute the saints.

Eventually, the civil powers will realize the religious power has been lying.

The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. For God as put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled.
Rev 17:16,17

YSIC,
MidnightCry

 

[stinsonmarri]

I just never thought scholars used Wiki as reference... my bad.

ECR:

When have I ever claim in any of my writings to be a scholar? What I acclaim to is my knowledge through my degree. A scholar is one who has written first a Thesis under his Master, and then a Dissertation for his PhD and then Books. I was working on my Master but my mother had a stroke, and shortly (a month) my father died. I will state this though I am the best researcher arround because I will take the time to check things out. Wiki has nothing wrong with it. But what I will do is present to you some true scholars that have used Wiki. Was the information false I presented in Wiki if so show me? Why write this unless you found some error? If you have a problem with me just say so I'll understand. But don't put me down because you do not agree with my understanding of Elohim's word or put down the source because it came from a known website for those who need quick but factual answers. If it is wrong come out and say so by showing me my error, I will always recant if it can be proven wrong. I am only a humble servant following the commission given to me by Elohim. It is to present the gift of understanding He gave to me to others, that is all!

What is a Scholar?​

The following attributes distinguish strong and promising scholars from ordinary academics:​

1. Definition – a strong scholar has a sharp focus that delimits the area of inquiry inwhich s/he works. A young academic who works on more than one research focus is likely to fail in developing a complex, depth and sophisticated understanding of any of the topics under investigation. Work on one thing, and do that well. In the post-PhD period, this development of a long-term research identity is crucially dependent on sharp definition.​

Blessings,​

stinsonmarri

PS: Sorry ECR and to all for not editing the fonts problem!

 

[NumberOneSon]

NumberOneSon,

What I claim is that they became under Catholicism but the church accepted their paganism beliefs. The same today is Afrikan religions in Cuba and the other islands. Even the Catholic belief is pagan but it united all the pagan beliefs under one umbrella. We are saying the same thing I understand that the Goth kept many of their beliefs so did all of Europe. The names of the week we have today are from European deities. Christmas, Easter, Halloween, Valentine are all pagan beliefs that the Catholic Church adopted into the church. Mistle toes is a homosexual love kiss of the Celtics before they went out to war. The ornaments on the Christmas tree also comes from the Celtic. They worship the evergreen tree (which most cultures do), they would take the skulls of the slain, clean them and place candles inside and hang them on the trees. Rabbits and chicken eggs are both old Roman beliefs that deal with birth. Santa Clause coming down the chimney is suppose to be the Norse and Vikin female goddess Frigdda. There is so much more but time will not permit me. But we are on the same page really we are.

Well, if you recognize that none of the barbarian kingdoms were keeping the Catholic faith at the time when the “Heruli”, Vandals, and Ostrogoths were becoming powerful (ie; the late 5th Century) then, yes, we’ll be on the same page. My problem with what you posted didn't really concern whether or not the Church absorbed pagan beliefs after the barbarians began converting to Catholicism.


NumberOneSon

 

[stinsonmarri]

stinsonmarri,

Obviously you cannot change my thinking and I cannot change yours. All we can do is continue to study God's Word and try and fit the puzzle together.

I am convinced, however, that you are wrong. Their will be a future power made up of religious and civil powers that will persecute the saints of God. This time, instead of a religious power doing the persecuting, the civil power will do what the religious power says and will persecute the saints.

Eventually, the civil powers will realize the religious power has been lying.

The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. For God as put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled.
Rev 17:16,17

YSIC,
MidnightCry

Midnight:

One thing I do not do and that is condemn a person or judge them. That's the Heavenly Father's job not mine nor yours. When you state that a person is wrong you are placing youself as if you are Elohim! We may disagree but the truth is through the Holy Spirit, the only thing each of us can do is to provide the facts that we have with prayer and kindness. But you nor I can make each other see the truth only the Holy Spirit. He come to those with a contrite mind, willing spirit and open mindness. We must listen to others and see if these things are so by checking out the resources. Many things I have learn from others which help me through the Holy Spirit to see the bigger picture. I took what they provided and check it out with a fine tooth comb with prayer. All I am is the messenger, the Holy Spirit is the truth giver!

Civil and secular means the same, the Bible is consistant. I stated this to you go back and read what I said that the beast will found out that the woman that riding or steering him was lying to him. She was the seventh head, her civil power was taken and she was left with only her religious power, but she still rules a kingdom and that is the Vatican city. The Catholic Church has always wanted Jerusalem to rule that why she had the holy crusades. One time she had Jerusalem, but lost it back to the Arabs. However, because of prophecy and her role in the last days the Arab Sultan gave her property and allowed Christians to remain in the city. This is historical facts and you can believe this or not that is your right and your choice.Just like some do not believe man went to the moon!!!! She will rule Jerusalem again and sit in the rebuilt Temple.
The beast/man will hate the harlot at the end time make war with her. The final World War III called Armageddon. That is what I said I just gave you more detail. The beast/man will also be the last one to sit in the Temple.

But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. Dan 11:44, 45

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12

Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. And from the time that the daily shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Dan 12:10,11* (sacrifice is an italic and it is not in the original Aramaic Text, it was placed their by the KJ scribes)

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called Elohim, or that is worshipped; so that he as Elohim sitteth in the temple of Elohim, shewing himself that he is Elohim. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom Yashua shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2Th 2:3-8

I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. Dan 7:11

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of Elohim. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty Elohim. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Rev 19:11 -15, 19, 20

All I can say to you is to watch and pray and remember the things that I presented to you. If I am correct the events that I describe will take place very soon. I will be praying for you as I hope that you pray for me.


Happy Sabbath and be bless,
stinsonmarri

 

[stinsonmarri]

originally posted by NumberOneSon: Well, if you recognize that none of the barbarian kingdoms were keeping the Catholic faith at the time when the “Heruli”, Vandals, and Ostrogoths were becoming powerful (ie; the late 5th Century) then, yes, we’ll be on the same page. My problem with what you posted didn't really concern whether or not the Church absorbed pagan beliefs after the barbarians began converting to Catholicism.[/quote]

NumberOneSon:​

I still differ with you on one point and that Rome force Christianity on the Germans tribes in Europe. Many were still pagan, but some were Catholic and Arian Christians:​

Constantius, who had before governed Asia, Syria, and Egypt, in the year 353 became sole emperor, and governed the whole empire till the year 361, when he died. Neither of these brothers possessed the disposition or the discernment of their father; yet they all pursued their father's purpose of abolishing the ancient superstitions of the Romans and other pagans, and of propagating the Christian religion throughout the Roman Empire.​

. . . . In the European provinces of the Roman Empire there still remained a vast number of idolaters; and though the Christian bishops endeavored to convert them to Christ, the business went on but slowly. In Gaul, the great Martin, bishop of Tours, was not unsuccessful in this work; but travelling through the provinces of Gaul, he everywhere persuaded many to renounce their idols and embrace Christ, and he destroyed their temples and threw down their statues. He therefore merited the title 'Apostle of the Gauls.' ​

It is very evident that the victories of Constantine the Great, and both the fear of punishment and the desire of pleasing the Roman emperors, were cogent reasons, in the view of whole nations as well as of individuals, for embracing the Christian religion. A History Christianity Edited By: Robert A. Guisepi Conversion Of Constantine: Decline Of Paganism Author: Mosheim, Johann Lorenz Von Conversion of Constantine: Decline Of Paganism A.D. 300 - 337​

As I also indicated that after the Franks became truly indoctrinated into the Catholic faith, it was Charlemagne (742-814), who truly reform the Catholic Church in Europe. This is when paganism completely united with Catholicism. However, I will repeat it started under Constantine the Great. Rome was too big to change paganism over night but a many joined, but secretly worship their pagan deities. While other openly kept their pagan faith. But orthodox Catholicism was adopted first than it was the Goth who turn to Arianism, but the others Britons, Spain, Scots were either orthodox Catholic and many still remain pagans. However when bishops and Roman leaders appeared, out of fear of death they pretend to believe. Because of the knowledge of the orthodox religion it was not hard for Charlemagne to Catholicized Europe under his reign.

It was forced also but a few of the late Roman rulers themselves went back to their pagan religions. Therefore, a lot happen but orthodox religion was kept before the Arian German tribes were destroyed! That my friend is history!

Happy Sabbath and be blest,
stinsonmarri

 

[NumberOneSon]

I still differ with you on one point and that Rome force Christianity on the Germans tribes in Europe. Many were still pagan, but some were Catholic and Arian Christians:

“Constantius, who had before governed Asia, Syria, and Egypt, in the year 353 became sole emperor, and governed the whole empire till the year 361, when he died. Neither of these brothers possessed the disposition or the discernment of their father; yet they all pursued their father's purpose of abolishing the ancient superstitions of the Romans and other pagans, and of propagating the Christian religion throughout the Roman Empire.

. . . In the European provinces of the Roman Empire there still remained a vast number of idolaters; and though the Christian bishops endeavored to convert them to Christ, the business went on but slowly. In Gaul, the great Martin, bishop of Tours, was not unsuccessful in this work; but travelling through the provinces of Gaul, he everywhere persuaded many to renounce their idols and embrace Christ, and he destroyed their temples and threw down their statues. He therefore merited the title 'Apostle of the Gauls.'

You have to remember that the period mentioned here (353-361AD) was prior to the mass exodus of Germanic tribes stemming from Hunnic expansion. Yes I agree, some of the Gallo-Romans and Ibero-Romans in Europe were converted to Nicene Christianity in the mid 4th-Century thanks in part to Martin and others, but I believe the native Gauls and Iberians were considered Celtic, not Germanic. The barbarian tribes that invaded Europe and created the “10 kingdoms” in the 5th-Century were Arian or pagan Germanic tribes.

BTW, Emperor Constantius, who was mentioned at the beginning of your quote, supported Arianism and propagated Arian Christianity.

It is very evident that the victories of Constantine the Great, and both the fear of punishment and the desire of pleasing the Roman emperors, were cogent reasons, in the view of whole nations as well as of individuals, for embracing the Christian religion. A History Christianity Edited By: Robert A. Guisepi Conversion Of Constantine: Decline Of Paganism Author: Mosheim, Johann Lorenz Von Conversion of Constantine: Decline Of Paganism A.D. 300 - 337

Yes, that was the case prior to 337AD.

As I also indicated that after the Franks became truly indoctrinated into the Catholic faith

Yes, after 508AD.

it was Charlemagne (742-814), who truly reform the Catholic Church in Europe. This is when paganism completely united with Catholicism.

Ok.

However, I will repeat it started under Constantine the Great. Rome was too big to change paganism over night but a many joined, but secretly worship their pagan deities. While other openly kept their pagan faith.

Agreed.

But orthodox Catholicism was adopted first than it was the Goth who turn to Arianism, but the others Britons, Spain, Scots were either orthodox Catholic and many still remain pagans.

Going back to Mosheim’s book; on the previous page, Mosheim stated that only “part” of the Goths within the empire had embraced Christ, and this happened in the 3rd Century prior to the Council of Nicaea, the Arian controversy, or Constantine’s conversion. But he goes on to say that outside of the Roman Empire “a large part of the (Gothic) nation remained estranged from Christ”; this was the case until the middle of the 4th Century when Emperor Valens permitted the majority of Goths to enter the empire on the condition they become Christians - but remember, as I explained in a previous post, Valens was an Arian Christian, and the creed the Goths accepted through Bishop Ulfilas was the Arian creed.

The footnote on page 227 (depending on your edition) confirms this:

“His (Ulfilas&#8217 last embassy was in the reign of Valens, A.D.376, to obtain permission for the Goths to pass the Danube and settle in Moesia. He was successful; and 200,000 Goths were admitted into the Roman empire, on condition of obeying the Arian interest.”

This particular migration of Goths had never embraced the orthodox faith prior to their conversion to Arianism, and it was this group that would go on to carve their own kingdom in part of the Western Empire in the 5th-Century.

You mentioned the Britons and the Scots; yes, I believe there were a few Christian communities among those people groups throughout the 4th or 5th Centuries, but hardly enough to consider those tribes to have adopted orthodox christianity. Do you consider the Britons and Scots to each represent two of the 10 kingdoms? If so, that would be interesting.

But regardless, even if there were instances of conquered Germans accepting orthodox Christianity early in the 4th Century, my original disagreement concerned the period of time when the “Heruli”, Vandals, and Ostrogoths were becoming powerful (ie; the late 5th Century), and at that time all of the barbarian kingdoms of Europe were either Arian or pagan. None of the late 5th-Century barbarian tribes were orthodox nations; the first to go down that path were the Franks in 508AD. Hopefully we can agree on that.

 

[stinsonmarri]

Well my friend you don't agree with history because I did not write it. I just accept base on the historical facts. Again, many Germans became solders in the Roman army.​

Many details of early movement and change within this group remain obscure, but by the late 2nd century, B.C.E., Roman authors recount, Gaul, Italy and Spain were invaded by migrating Germanic tribes, culminating in military conflict with the armies of republican Rome. Julius Caesar, six decades later, invoked the threat of such attacks as one justification for his annexation of Gaul to Rome. By the 1st century of the Common Era, the writings of Caesar, Tacitus and other Roman and Mediterranean writers indicate a division of Germanic-speaking peoples into tribal groupings centered on the lower Rhine river, the river Elbe, the river Vistula (Poland), Jutland, Scania and the Danish islands. ​

As Rome advanced her borders to the Rhine and Danube, incorporating many Celtic societies into the Empire, the Germanic tribal homelands to the north and east emerged collectively in the records as Germania, whose peoples were sometimes at war with the Empire but who also engaged in complex and long-term trade relations, military alliances and cultural exchanges with their neighbors to the south. Odin's Volk​

The Germanic people underwent gradual Christianization in the course of Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages. By the 8th century, England and the Frankish Empire were (officially) Christian, and by AD 1100 Germanic paganism had also ceased to have political influence in Scandinavia. . . .

Many Goths converted to Christianity as individuals outside the Roman Empire. Most members of other tribes converted to Christianity when their respective tribes settled within the Empire, and most Franks and Anglo-Saxons converted a few generations later. During the later centuries following the Fall of Rome, as schism between the dioceses loyal to the Pope of Rome in the West and those loyal to the other Patriarchs in the East, most of the Germanic peoples (excepting the Crimean Goths and a few other eastern groups) would gradually become strongly allied with the Catholic Church in the West, particularly as a result of the reign of Charlemagne. . . ​

The conversion of the Goths to Christianity was a relatively swift process, facilitated on the one hand by the assimilation of (primarily female) Christian captives into Gothic society and on the other by a general equation of participation in Roman society with adherence to Christianity. Within a few generations of their appearance on the borders of the Empire in 238 AD, the conversion of the Goths to Christianity was nearly all-inclusive. The Christian cross appeared on coins in Gothic Crimea shortly after the Edict of Tolerance was issued by Galerius in 311 AD, and a bishop by the name of Theophilas Gothiae was present at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. However, fighting between Pagan and Christian Goths continued throughout this period, and religious persecutions - echoing the Diocletianic Persecution (302-11 AD) - occurred frequently. The Christian Goths Wereka, Batwin and others were martyred by order of Wingourichos ca. 370 AD, and Saba was martyred by order of Athanaric in 372 AD.

The initial success experienced by the Goths encouraged them to engage in a series of raiding campaigns at the close of the 3rd century - many of which resulted in having numerous captives sent back to Gothic settlements north of the Danube and the Black Sea. Wulfila, who became bishop of the Goths in 341 AD, was the grandson of one such female Christian captive from Sadagolthina in Cappadocia. He served in this position for the next seven years. In 348, one of the remaining Pagan Gothic kings (reikos) began persecuting the Christian Goths, and Wulfila and many other Christian Goths fled to Moesia Secunda in the Roman Empire. He continued to serve as bishop to the Christian Goths in Moesia until his death in 383 AD.​

Wulfila was ordained by Eusebius of Nicomedia, the bishop of Constantinople, in 341 AD. Eusebius was a pupil of Lucian of Antioch and a leading figure of a faction of Christological thought that became known as Arianism, named after his friend and fellow student, Arius of Alexandria. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Many want to place Constantine the Great as the beginning of the Catholic faith, he was not. He just made it the state religion for political reason. After the death of the apostles, the Christians had already separated from the Nazarenes even during the time of Paul. That is why Paul wrote the letters to the various Gentile churches who were Greeks and Indo-Europeans and not of other nationalities. He saw a separation during his time from the truth. The name Christian was not accepted by any of the apostles of Yashua, they call themselves followers of the Yashua, the Nazarene! All Constantine did was unite what was already the Catholicism as the state religion and made it a nation law. Many of the Goths and some of the Germans tribes had accepted the Catholic faith before Arian became a factor. As I continue to declare that the German Tribes went through a change in time when the whole continent of Europe became endowed into the Catholic faith. The Arian religion rose and fail but the Catholic Religion was already practice in Europe during the 2nd century!

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

 

[NumberOneSon]

Well my friend you don't agree with history because I did not write it.

My views on these matters are based almost exclusively on accepted historical sources, so no, I don’t disagree with history. I’ve even agreed with most of the book/wiki excerpts you’ve provided so far (except for your anonymous source who wrongly claimed that the Ostrogoths and Vandals shed Arianism and converted to “Eastern Catholicism” in the 6th-Century, which of course never happened).

In post #57 you said you only disagreed with me on one point, that point being you believed Rome forced Christianity on the German tribes in Europe. However, I don’t really disagree with that claim at all; I’ve always recognized that Christianity was forced on the German tribes. However, where we diverge is your original claim; “many of the ten kingdoms kept the (Catholic) faith but three”. Even if there are sources telling you that Constantine forced some Goths to convert to Christianity early in the 4th Century, the Gothic tribes that entered the empire late in the 4th Century were adherents of Arian Christianity, and were forced to convert to Arian Christianity by Arian emperors like Constantius and Valens. In post #48, I even quoted Edward Gibbon who stated that Arianism was the national faith of the Ostrogoths, Burgundians, Suevi and Vandals. Do you agree with Gibbon here?

In post #58, I pointed out that Mosheim recognized only “part” of the Goths had converted to Christianity in the 3rd Century (which was prior to the Council of Nicaea), while a “large part” of the Gothic population remained estranged from Christ until the Arian emperor, Valens, made conversion to Arian Christianity the condition for entering the empire. Again, do you agree with Mosheim here?

Once again, I’ll repeat; my original disagreement concerned the period of time when the “Heruli”, Vandals, and Ostrogoths were becoming powerful (ie; the late 5th Century), and at that time all of the barbarian kingdoms of Europe were either Arian or pagan. None of the late 5th-Century barbarian tribes were orthodox nations; the first to go down that path were the Franks in 508AD. Stinsonmarri, can we at least agree on that? If we can’t, then provide the names of the barbarian nations who were faithful to the Catholic faith in the late 5th Century.

I just accept base on the historical facts. Again, many Germans became solders in the Roman army.

And I’m sure they did - but that’s not where our disagreement lies.

Many details of early movement and change within this group remain obscure, but by the late 2nd century, B.C.E., Roman authors recount,Gaul, Italy and Spain were invaded by migrating Germanic tribes, culminating in military conflict with the armies of republican Rome. Julius Caesar, six decades later, invoked the threat of such attacks as one justification for his annexation of Gaul to Rome. By the 1st century of the Common Era, the writings of Caesar, Tacitus and other Roman and Mediterranean writers indicate a division of Germanic-speaking peoples into tribal groupings centered on the lower Rhine river, the river Elbe, the river Vistula (Poland), Jutland, Scania and the Danish islands.

As Rome advanced her borders to the Rhine and Danube, incorporating many Celtic societies into the Empire, the Germanic tribal homelands to the north and east emerged collectively in the records as Germania, whose peoples were sometimes at war with the Empire but who also engaged in complex and long-term trade relations, military alliances and cultural exchanges with their neighbors to the south. Odin's Volk

The Germanic people underwent gradual Christianization in the course of Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages. By the 8th century, England and the Frankish Empire were (officially) Christian, and by AD 1100 Germanic paganism had also ceased to have political influence in Scandinavia. . . .

Yes, I agree. But none of the above information has anything to do with our point of contention (ie; the religious landscape of the Western barbarian nations in the late 5th-Century when the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths were becoming powerful)

Many Goths converted to Christianity as individuals outside the Roman Empire. Most members of other tribes converted to Christianity when their respective tribes settled within the Empire…

Yes, I agree.

…and most Franks and Anglo-Saxons converted a few generations later.

Well, I guess it depends on what the writer meant by a “few generations”. The Wikipedia entry on the Franks uses information from Lorenz Sonke that the conversion of the Franks after Clovis took “a considerable amount of time and effort - in some places two centuries or more”. The Wikipedia entry on the Anglo-Saxons claims “Christianity gradually replaced the indigenous religion of the English around the 7th and 8th centuries.” That’s considerably more than just a “few generations” in my book.

During the later centuries following the Fall of Rome, as schism between the dioceses loyal to the Pope of Rome in the West and those loyal to the other Patriarchs in the East, most of the Germanic peoples (excepting the Crimean Goths and a few other eastern groups) would gradually become strongly allied with the Catholic Church in the West, particularly as a result of the reign of Charlemagne. . .

Sure. The Germanic peoples either ended up converting to Chalcedonic orthodoxy (like the Lombards) or they were destroyed before they had been given the same amount of time (like the Ostrogoths).

The conversion of the Goths to Christianity was a relatively swift process, facilitated on the one hand by the assimilation of (primarily female) Christian captives into Gothic society and on the other by a general equation of participation in Roman society with adherence to Christianity. Within a few generations of their appearance on the borders of the Empire in 238 AD, the conversion of the Goths to Christianity was nearly all-inclusive. The Christian cross appeared on coins in Gothic Crimea shortly after the Edict of Tolerance was issued by Galerius in 311 AD, and a bishop by the name of Theophilas Gothiae was present at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. However, fighting between Pagan and Christian Goths continued throughout this period, and religious persecutions - echoing the Diocletianic Persecution (302-11 AD) - occurred frequently.

And toward the beginning of the same article, it says:

“The Gothic tribes were predominantly Christian for more than a century before they sacked Rome in the Fifth century.”
“The Gothic Christians were followers of a doctrine (Homoianism) associated by their opponents with the priest Arius. The theological differences between this and orthodox Christianity are discussed under Arianism.”

The Christian Goths Wereka, Batwin and others were martyred by order of Wingourichos ca. 370 AD, and Saba was martyred by order of Athanaric in 372 AD.

Yes, and I believe Werek and Batwin were both Arian martyrs (not sure about Saba).

The initial success experienced by the Goths encouraged them to engage in a series of raiding campaigns at the close of the 3rd century - many of which resulted in having numerous captives sent back to Gothic settlements north of the Danube and the Black Sea. Wulfila, who became bishop of the Goths in 341 AD, was the grandson of one such female Christian captive from Sadagolthina in Cappadocia. He served in this position for the next seven years. In 348, one of the remaining Pagan Gothic kings (reikos) began persecuting the Christian Goths, and Wulfila and many other Christian Goths fled to Moesia Secunda in the Roman Empire. He continued to serve as bishop to the Christian Goths in Moesia until his death in 383 AD.

Wulfila was ordained by Eusebius of Nicomedia, the bishop of Constantinople, in 341 AD. Eusebius was a pupil of Lucian of Antioch and a leading figure of a faction of Christological thought that became known as Arianism, named after his friend and fellow student, Arius of Alexandria. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, and as I’ve said on several occasions, Wulfila (or “Ulfilas&#8221, the “bishop of the Goths”, was an Arian bishop, and so the Goths who converted to Christianity under Ulfilas would have adhered to Arian Christology.

Many want to place Constantine the Great as the beginning of the Catholic faith, he was not. He just made it the state religion for political reason.

But you already stated in post #43 that Christianity only became the state religion in 380AD (through Emperor Theodosius I). Why the change in positions? Constantine served to make Christianity a legal religion and end state-approved persecution of the sect; he did not make it the state religion.

All Constantine did was unite what was already the Catholicism as the state religion and made it a nation law.

Again, you’re contradicting your previous position. Emperor Theodosius was the first to make Catholicism a state religion and national law in 380AD, whereas Constantine served to end persecution of Christians and began making Christianity popular throughout the empire.

Many of the Goths and some of the Germans tribes had accepted the Catholic faith before Arian became a factor.

And Mosheim already explained that “part” of the Goths did indeed accept pre-Nicene Christianity, while a “large part of the Gothic nation remained estranged from Christ”. That “large part” converted upon entering the empire, and entering the empire was contingent on their conversion to the Arian form of Christianity (per Mosheim).

You mentioned that some of the German tribes had accepted the Catholic faith before Arianism became a factor, but the “Catholic”, Nicene Creed was formulated as a response to Arianism. There wouldn’t have been a unified, “Catholic” faith prior to the Council of Nicea since no ecumenical council had been held and no universal creed was agreed upon at that point in history.

As I continue to declare that the German Tribes went through a change in time when the whole continent of Europe became endowed into the Catholic faith.

Well, after 380AD, all of the citizens of the empire were “endowed into the Catholic faith” by state law, I would agree. But the Germanic tribes that invaded the Western Empire and carved out kingdoms in the 5th Century were not Roman citizens and were not endowed into the Catholic faith; they were all either Arian or pagan tribes who were not subject to Roman law or bound to the Catholic faith. So although the majority of Romans in Europe were Catholic, their barbarian overlords were not…until the conversion of Clovis and the Franks got the ball rolling.

The Arian religion rose and fail but the Catholic Religion was already practice in Europe during the 2nd century!

The Christian religion in the 3rd Century, yes. The “Catholic” religion (as defined by the various ecumenical councils beginning with Nicaea) was not since the ecumenical councils did not begin until the 4th Century.