five have fallen, one is, and one is yet to come and there is also the eighth...

[stinsonmarri]

I humbly ask for your forgiveness for coming across so harsh at times...

it is not you in particular (ask Crib, BFA, Contented, Pythons, Ricker). I do get impatient with posters in the traditional Adventist room that do not espouse traditional Adventist views, especially if they have the tag of SDA in their avatar. As the forum rules say, you can ask questions about the nature of our faith but not to spout other beliefs as an arguement against ours. I know you call yourself SDA but you would, in my opinion, be firmly in the progressive Adventist group, not traditional. That is the reason for the nature of my responses to you, or any other posts, that are non traditional in nature.

ECR:

Thanks for your response, however to be honest I am more traditional than you are. Let me explain the reason I say this. I am traditionally Bible base, not man based. As I told someone else I was brought up in this church to believe the same way you do about EGW and many other things. As did Paul but listen to what he said:

For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of Elohim, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. But when it pleased Elohim, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, Gal 1:13-15

But there were many questions that could not be answered by many of my ministerial friends. All felt that I should go along with the norm, I could not. I also have said to you that Yashua made it clear to obey Elohim's than the so call traditions and doctrines of the church. I have even asked you to provide for me answers in the Bible to why you hold on to your beliefs that are not Biblical. Even when you say EGW is a prophet/prophetess you base it on the church leaders but not from her whom you should believe right? She says she is not and she said that Yashua told her what she was to be call a messenger. Simple things to me like "beast given to the burning flames." "Bottomless pit," the harlot riding the beast, Babylon is the city that killed the prophets, the 144,000 called virgins and wise in Daniel and both in Matthew. I could go on and on these ECR are my traditions and they are also my base of facts.
Why on earth should you state this as progressive or moderate when in my conclusion this is traditional????

Elohim, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds; Heb 1:1, 2

Happy Sabbath,
stinsonmarri

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

You are not, by your admission, a traditional Adventist that believes what God revealed to the pioneers, sister White among them. You may very well be a traditionist in a different sense, but that is not holding to the beliefs revealed to the pioneers.

No where in the writings of Ellen White or any of the elders that governed the early church, are we told to use the term Elohim or Yashua, no where to keep the feasts that were types of fulfilled antitypes or other beliefs that you have that, as far as I can tell, are unique to yourself. I am not saying that you can't hold to whatever belief you want but I fail to see how you identify with SDA's at all, let alone the traditionists.

 

[stinsonmarri]

You are not, by your admission, a traditional Adventist that believes what God revealed to the pioneers, sister White among them. You may very well be a traditionist in a different sense, but that is not holding to the beliefs revealed to the pioneers.

No where in the writings of Ellen White or any of the elders that governed the early church, are we told to use the term Elohim or Yashua, no where to keep the feasts that were types of fulfilled antitypes or other beliefs that you have that, as far as I can tell, are unique to yourself. I am not saying that you can't hold to whatever belief you want but I fail to see how you identify with SDA's at all, let alone the traditionists.

ECR:

That is not true. EGW said to take the Bible first and she also stated clearly that only Elohim is infailable. TM p. 105, 106 She said that ancient Instructions (Torah) should be studied by the people of Elohim today. (Precepts given to guard the Decalogue); She said be familiar with the Levitical law and all its bearings it contain rules that all must obey. SDA Commentary Vol. 7 A Ex 19:3, 20; Lev 1:1, 2.

Let me say this the Pioneers were force out of their churches when they accepted and understood the IJ. I never said that EGW herself used the correct name of the Most High. When you learn and understand truth from the Bible you obey. EGW never put down the Feast days either. Did you read this story she was about to have Yashua Supper on Sabbath on one of her travels. A man stood up and stated that they should take the passover once a year, another talked about the 144,000 was in the past. EGW immediately went into a vision and this is what she said she saw:

The light of heaven then rested upon me, and I was soon lost to earthly things. My accompanying angel presented before me some of the errors of those present, and also the truth in contrast with their errors. These discordant views, which they claimed were in harmony with the Scriptures, were only according to their opinion of Bible teaching; and I was bidden to tell them that they should yield their errors, and unite upon the truths of the third angel’s message. Life Sketches 11

She never told what was right nor the errors just unite upon the truth of the third angel's message as the angel told her to do.

You apologize and then take it back. I know EGW writings because I have them all here in my home since a child. I also was raised on the SDA Commentaries, I used and read them so much (the green ones), that some of the covers came off of them. On my shelf now is the most up todate ones. By the way have you call the Publishing Department of GC they do not publish them anymore ask them why? I know do you? I have all of the pioneers writings and books on my shelf.

But that is not what makes me a Seventh day Adventist. I believe in the Sabbath according to the Bible and not the way the suppose to be SDA folks, who do not respect the Sabbath themselves. Even on the Hope Channel they talk secular things on the Sabbath. I believe in the Second coming of Yashua and He is my HP. I believe in the Book of Life and names can be either sealed or blotted out. I believe what YAWHEH says have ten times more weight as an SDA, then EGW, JW, HE, US or any pioneer. So if YAHWEH says "Theses are Mine Feast Days," then I obey. If the Bible says clearly that His people will know Him by His name, then I obey and call Him by His right name.

Who hath ascended up into Heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in His fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is His name, and what is His Son's name, if thou canst tell? Prob 30:4

ECR you really do not believe in EGW or Yashua because she said He told her that she was a messenger. The Bible says that Yashua is the Spirit of Prophecy which is His testimony not EGW. I not here to please you or any man or woman, I am here to present the truth and obey Elohim. When you go against the norm, you are not liked and you are always be criticized, or even ignored. Soon hated and dispised by the ones who claim they love you. I look at the RP who claim they are Christians but plotted during Obama's inauguration for him to serve one time. Hated because of his color and will do anything include elect a Morman for president. Now Morman's are hated too, but they are white so its better than President Obama. This is the exact thing that happen to the Savior their tradition over His Father's law.

Finally, I am a traditionist in the real sense because I obey all of the Commandments and Law, and not only a few. His name is equally important. What the Father says is whom I owe my allegiance to and not men or SDA leaders traditional doctrines. My SDA faith is obeying the Bible and not man. End of story.


Blessings,
stinsonmarri

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

As for the names of God here's a list for you from the Bible..

THE NAMES OF GOD
OLD TESTAMENT NAMES FOR GOD
ELOHIM......Genesis 1:1, Psalm 19:1 meaning "God", a reference to God's power and might.
ADONAI......Malachi 1:6 meaning "Lord", a reference to the Lordship of God.
JEHOVAH--YAHWEH.....Genesis 2:4 a reference to God's divine salvation.
JEHOVAH-MACCADDESHEM.......Exodus 31:13 meaning "The Lord thy sanctifier"
JEHOVAH-ROHI......Psalm 23:1 meaning "The Lord my shepherd"
JEHOVAH-SHAMMAH.......Ezekiel 48:35 meaning "The Lord who is present"
JEHOVAH-RAPHA.........Exodus 15:26 meaning "The Lord our healer"
JEHOVAH-TSIDKENU......Jeremiah 23:6 meaning "The Lord our righteousness"
JEHOVAH-JIREH.........Genesis 22:13-14 meaning "The Lord will provide"
JEHOVAH-NISSI.........Exodus 17:15 meaning "The Lord our banner"
JEHOVAH-SHALOM........Judges 6:24 meaning "The Lord is peace"
JEHOVAH-SABBAOTH......Isaiah 6:1-3 meaning "The Lord of Hosts"
JEHOVAH-GMOLAH........Jeremiah 51:6 meaning "The God of Recompense"
EL-ELYON..............Genesis 14:17-20,Isaiah 14:13-14 meaning "The most high God
EL-ROI................Genesis 16:13 meaning "The strong one who sees"
EL-SHADDAI............Genesis 17:1,Psalm 91:1 meaning "The God of the mountains or God Almighty"
EL-OLAM...............Isaiah 40:28-31 meaning "The everlasting God"






MORE NAMES OF GOD--Father, Son, Holy Spirit

• ABBA.............................Romans 8:15
• ADVOCATE.........................I John 2:1
• ALMIGHTY.........................Genesis 17:1
• ALL IN ALL.......................Colossians 3:11
• ALPHA............................Revelation 22:13
• ANCIENT OF DAYS..................Daniel 7:9
• ANOINTED ONE.....................Psalm 2:2
• ARM OF THE LORD..................Isaiah 53:1
• AUTHOR OF OUR FAITH..............Hebrews 12:2
• AUTHOR OF PEACE..................1 Cor. 14:33
• BEGINNING.........................Revelation 21:6
• BISHOP OF SOULS...................1 Peter 2:25
• BLESSED & HOLY RULER..............1 Timothy 6:15
• BRANCH............................Jeremiah 33:15
• BREAD OF GOD......................John 6:33
• BREAD OF LIFE.....................John 6:35
• BREATH OF LIFE....................Genesis 2:7, Revelation 11:11
• BRIDEGROOM........................Isaiah 62:5
• BRIGHT MORNING STAR...............Revelation 22:16
• BUCKLER.........2 Sam.22:31,Psalm 18:2,Psalm 18:30,Proverbs 2:7
• CAPTAIN OF SALVATION...............Hebrews 2:10
• CARPENTER..........................Mark 6:3
• CHIEF SHEPHERD.....................1 Peter 5:4
• CHOSEN ONE.........................Isaiah 42:1
• CHRIST.............................Matthew 22:42
• CHRIST OF GOD......................Luke 9:20
• CHRIST THE LORD....................Luke 2:11
• CHRIST, SON OF LIVING GOD..........Matthew 16:16
• COMFORTER..........................John 14:26
• COMMANDER..........................Isaiah 55:4
• CONSUMING FIRE......................Deut. 4:24, Heb. 12:29
• CORNERSTONE.........................Isaiah 28:16
• COUNSELOR...........................Isaiah 9:6
• CREATOR.............................1 Peter 4:19
• DAYSPRING..............................Luke 1:78
• DELIVERER..............................Romans 11:2
• DIADEM OF BEAUTY.......................Isaiah 28:5
• DOOR...................................John 10:7
• DWELLING PLACE.........................Psalm 90:1
• ELECT ONE..............................Isaiah 42:1
• EMMANUEL...............................Matthew 1:23
• END....................................Revelation 21:6
• ETERNAL GOD............................Deut. 33:27
• ETERNAL LIFE...........................1 John 5:20
• ETERNAL SPIRIT.........................Hebrews 9:14
• EVERLASTING FATHER.....................Isaiah 9:6
• EVERLASTING GOD.........................Genesis 21:33
• EXCELLENT...............................Psalm 148:13
• FAITHFUL & TRUE........................Revelation 19:11
• FAITHFUL WITNESS.......................Revelation 1:5
• FATHER.................................Matthew 6:9
• FIRSTBORN..............................Rom.8:29,Rev.1:5,Col.1:15
• FIRSTFRUITS............................1 Cor.15:20-23
• FORTRESS...............................Jeremiah 16:19
• FOUNDATION.............................1 Cor. 3:11
• FOUNTAIN OF LIVING WATERS..............Jeremiah 2:13
• FRIEND.................................Matthew 11:19
• GENTLE WHISPER.........................1 Kings 19:12
• GIFT OF GOD............................John 4:10
• GLORY OF THE LORD......................Isaiah 40:5
• GOD....................................Genesis 1:1
• GOD ALMIGHTY...........................Genesis 17:1
• GOD OF THE WHOLE EARTH.................Isaiah 54:5
• GOD OVER ALL...........................Romans 9:5
• GOD WHO SEES ME........................Genesis 16:13
• GOOD SHEPHERD..........................John 10:11
• GOVERNOR...............................Psalm 22:28
• GREAT HIGH PRIEST......................Hebrews 4:14
• GREAT SHEPHERD.........................Hebrews 13:20
• GUIDE..................................Psalm 48:14
• HEAD OF THE BODY.......................Colossians 1:18
• HEAD OF THE CHURCH.....................Ephesians 5:23
• HEIR OF ALL THINGS.....................Hebrews 1:2
• HIGH PRIEST............................Hebrews 3:1
• HOLY GHOST.............................John 14:26
• HOLY ONE...............................Acts 2:27
• HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL.....................Isaiah 49:7
• HOLY SPIRIT............................John 15:26
• HOPE...................................Titus 2:13
• HORN OF SALVATION......................Luke 1:69
• HUSBAND................................Isaiah 54:5,Jer 31:32,Hosea 2:16
• I AM....................................Exodus 3:14, John 8:58
• IMAGE OF GOD............................2 Cor. 4:4
• IMAGE OF HIS PERSON.....................Hebrews 1:3
• IMMANUEL................................Isaiah 7:14
• INTERCESSOR.............................Romans 8:26,27,34 Hebrews 7:25
• JAH..................................Psalm 68:4
• JEALOUS..............................Exodus 34:14
• JEHOVAH..............................Psalm 83:18
• JESUS................................Matthew 1:21
• JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD................Romans 6:23
• JUDGE................................Isaiah 33:22, Acts 10:42
• JUST ONE.............................Acts 22:14
• KEEPER...............................Psalm 121:5
• KING.................................Zechariah 9:9
• KING ETERNAL.........................1 Timothy 1:17
• KING OF GLORY........................Psalm 24:10
• KING OF JEWS.........................Matthew 27:11
• KING OF KINGS........................1 Timothy 6:15
• KING OF SAINTS.......................Revelation 15:3
• LAMB OF GOD...........................John 1:29
• LAST ADAM.............................1 Cor. 15:45
• LAWGIVER..............................Isaiah 33:22
• LEADER................................Isaiah 55:4
• LIFE..................................John 14:6
• LIGHT OF THE WORLD....................John 8:12
• LIKE AN EAGLE.........................Deut. 32:11
• LILY OF THE VALLEYS...................Song 2:1
• LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH............Revelation 5:5
• LIVING GOD.............................Daniel 6:20
• LIVING STONE..........................1 Peter 2:4
• LIVING WATER..........................John 4:10
• LORD..................................John 13:13
• LORD GOD ALMIGHTY.....................Revelation 15:3
• LORD JESUS CHRIST.....................1 Cor. 15:57
• LORD OF ALL...........................Acts 10:36
• LORD OF GLORY ........................1 Cor. 2:8
• LORD OF HARVEST.......................Matthew 9:38
• LORD OF HOSTS.........................Haggai 1:5
• LORD OF LORDS.........................1 Tim. 6:15
• LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS..............Jeremiah 23:6
• LOVE.................................1 John 4:8
• MAKER..................................Job 35:10, Psalm 95:6
• MAJESTY ON HIGH........................Hebrews 1:3
• MAN OF SORROWS.........................Isaiah 53:3
• MASTER..................................Luke 5:5
• MEDIATOR................................1 Timothy 2:5
• MERCIFUL GOD............................Jeremiah 3:12
• MESSENGER OF THE COVENANT................Malachi 3:1
• MESSIAH................................. John 4:25
• MIGHTY GOD...............................Isaiah 9:6
• MIGHTY ONE...............................Isaiah 60:16
• MOST UPRIGHT.............................Isaiah 26:7
• NAZARENE.................................Matthew 2:23
• OFFSPRING OF DAVID.......................Revelation 22:16
• OMEGA....................................Revelation 22:13
• ONLY BEGOTTEN SON........................John 1:18
• OUR PASSOVER LAMB........................1 Cor. 5:7
• OUR PEACE................................Ephesians 2:14
• PHYSICIAN................................Luke 4:23
• PORTION..................................Psalm 73:26,Psalm 119:57
• POTENTATE................................1 Timothy 6:15
• POTTER...................................Isaiah 64:8
• POWER OF GOD.............................1 Cor. 1:24
• PRINCE OF LIFE...........................Acts 3:15
• PRINCE OF PEACE..........................Isaiah 9:6
• PROPHET..................................Acts 3:22
• PROPITIATION.............................1John 2:2, 1John 4:10
• PURIFIER.................................Malachi 3:3
• QUICKENING SPIRIT........................1 Corinthians 15:45
• RABBONI (TEACHER)........................John 20:16
• RADIANCE OF GOD'S GLORY..................Heb.1:3
• REDEEMER.................................Job 19:25
• REFINER'S FIRE...........................Malachi 3:2
• REFUGE...................................Jeremiah 16:19
• RESURRECTION.............................John 11:25
• REWARDER.................................Hebrews 11:6
• RIGHTEOUS ONE............................1 John 2:1
• ROCK.....................................1 Cor.10:4
• ROOT OF DAVID............................Rev. 22:16
• ROSE OF SHARON...........................Song 2:1
• RULER OF GOD'S CREATION..................Rev. 3:14
• RULER OVER KINGS OF EARTH................Rev 1:5
• RULER OVER ISRAEL........................Micah 5:2
• SAVIOR...................................Luke 2:11
• SCEPTRE..................................Numbers 24:17
• SEED.....................................Genesis 3:15
• SERVANT..................................Isaiah 42:1
• SHADE....................................Psalm 121:5
• SHEPHERD OF OUR SOULS....................1Peter 2:25
• SHIELD...................................Genesis 15:1
• SHILOH...................................Genesis 49:10
• SONG.....................................Exodus 15:2, Isaiah 12:2
• SON OF DAVID.............................Matthew 1:1
• SON OF GOD...............................Matthew 27:54
• SON OF MAN...............................Matthew 8:20
• SON OF THE MOST HIGH.....................Luke 1:32
• SOURCE...................................Hebrews 5:9
• SPIRIT...................................John 4:24
• SPIRIT OF ADOPTION.......................Romans 8:15
• SPIRIT OF GOD............................Genesis 1:2
• SPIRIT OF TRUTH..........................John 14:17,15:26,16:13
• STAR OUT OF JACOB........................Numbers 24:17
• STRENGTH.................................Jeremiah 16:19
• STONE....................................1 Peter 2:8
• STONE OF ISRAEL..........................Genesis 49:24
• STRONGHOLD...............................Nahum 1:7
• STRONG TOWER.............................Proverbs 18:10
• SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.....................Malachi 4:2
• TEACHER...................................John 13:13
• TEMPLE....................................Revelation 21:22
• TRUE LIGHT................................John 1:9
• TRUE WITNESS..............................Revelation 3:14
• TRUTH.....................................John 14:6
• VINE......................................John 15:5
• WALL OF FIRE...............................Zechariah 2:5
• WAY........................................John 14:6
• WISDOM OF GOD..............................1 Cor. 1:24
• WITNESS....................................Isaiah 55:4
• WONDERFUL..................................Isaiah 9:6
• WORD.......................................John 1:1
• WORD OF GOD................................Revelation 19:13
• YAH........................................Isaiah 12:2

If 2 Timothy 3:16 is correct and all scripture is given by inspiration of God and all the above names were used to describe God and were used by God's people, why do you think that Yaweh, Elohim and Yashua are the only ones acceptable?
Did God not tell Moses His name when asked at the burning bush? I don't recall it being Elohim, Yaweh or Yashua.

 

[NumberOneSon]

Stinsonmarri, out of the ten tribes you identified as the “10 Kingdoms”, which ones were faithful to the Catholic faith around 476AD? The highlighted tribes on the list represent those you recognize were Arian at that time, along with the tribes Gibbon said had embraced Arianism as their national faith. So of the five that remain, which ones were Catholic around 476AD and what sources do you have that support this claim?

Visigoths
Anglo-Saxons
Franks
Alemanni
Lombards
Burgundians – (Gibbon)
Suevi – (Gibbon)
Heruli
Ostrogoths
Vandals

 

[stinsonmarri]

ECR:​

It is very sad that you really do not understand about the translation of the Bible into the English language. Again I will supply EGW whom you claim to accept.​

I saw that Elohim had especially guarded the Bible; yet when copies of it were few, learned men had in some instances changed the words, thinking that they were making it more plain, when in reality they were mystifying that which was plain, by causing it to lean to their established views, which were governed by tradition. But I saw that the Word of Elohim, as a whole, is a perfect chain, one portion linking into and explaining another. True seekers for truth need not err; for not only is the Word of Elohim plain and simple in declaring the way of life, but the Holy Spirit is given as a guide in understanding the way to life therein revealed. EW 220, 221 ​

You should have interlinear Bible so you see what the actual Hebrew word mean and how they interpret to fit their belief. I will provide what these pagan names means you make your own decision because I have made mine.

Also, transliteration should not be confused with translation, which involves a change in language while preserving meaning. Transliteration performs a mapping from one alphabet into another. Wikipedia: The Free Encyclopedia​

Webster's 1913 Dictionary: god means to call upon, invoke, implore.​

Reader Digest Dictionary Word origin: God - Our word god goes back via Germanic to Indo-European, in which a corresponding ancestor form meant “invoked one.” The words only surviving non-Germanic relative is Sanskrit hu, invoke the gods, a form which appears in the Rig Veda, most ancient of Hindu scriptures: puru-hutas, “much invoked,” epithet of the rain-and-thunder god Indra.​

Oxford English Dictionary: God - There are two Aryan roots of the required form (both glheu, with palatal aspirate): one meaning ‘to invoke’ (Skr. h&#363, the other to pour, to offer sacrifice Hence glhutó-m has been variously interpreted as ‘what is invoked’ (cf. Skr. puru-hūta ‘much-invoked’, an epithet of Indra) and as ‘what is worshipped by sacrifice’ (cf. Skr. hutá, which occurs in the sense ‘sacrificed to’ as well as in that of ‘offered in sacrifice’). Either of these conjectures is fairly plausible, as they both yield a sense practically coincident with the most obvious definition deducible from the actual use of the word, ‘an object of worship’.​

I do not invoke Elohim! YAHWEH, Yashua nor the Holy Spirit is object of worship.​

And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other mighty ones, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth. Ex 23:13​

The King James translators used a pagan Anglo-Saxon word “god” from the Germanic “gad.” No one has ever really challenged this widespread use of this Indo-European word.​

The King James translators made the same erroneous translation of the covenant name of the Almighty. They changed the name “YAHWEH,” which means, “He is,” to the Anglo-Saxon word, “LORD.” Why? They cared less about the truth of scripture than orthodoxy, and they decide to conform and relate to their manmade tradition. Craig Bluemel, “The Origin of the English Word for God Part One​

This statement is incontestable; it is proven by the very name. The descending God was the light-bringer, Lucifer, the bright and morning star, which is precisely the character assumed by the Jesus of the Biblical Revelation! The Christian devil, the hated serpent of evil, Satan is Lucifer, the God of Light on Earth; Prometheus the "benefactor of mankind," ‘the God’ God" himself. W. W. Webb, “AMENTA,”​

Massey capped his signature work with an elaborate and detailed investigation into the Kamite origins of Christianity. He was able to trace all the important Christian themes to Kamite typology and astronomical mythology. He asserted that the Gospels, like certain Old Testament accounts already alluded to, were just the humanized and historicized astronomical mythology of Egypt, instituted by the early Christian canonizers and confirmed at the Council of Nicea. The word Christ, which in Greek means “anointed,’ is equivalent to “karast.” Egyptian for the embalmed and anointed mummy, a figure of resurrection and life after death. The karast is also the “messu,”Egyptian for “anointed one,” from which the word “messiah” comes. As an example of Christianity’s astronomical antecedents, the birth date of Christ, originally celebrated in early January, was purposefully moved hack to December 25 to coincide with the birth date of the sun-god Horus (and all the sun gods of antiquity) at which time the constellation Virgo was on the eastern horizon: the sun as son, then, was truly born of the Virgin. Ivan Van Sertima, “Egypt revisited p. 410​

Kris Kringle:Etymology: German Christ Kindle or Christkindl, "Christ Child."Alternative spelling of Kris Kringle, Santa Claus. “Kriss Kringle,” Wiktionary, the free dictionary​

I am YAHWEH that is My name: and My honor will I not give to another (name), neither My praise to graven images. Isaiah 42:8​

You shall not take the name of YAHWEH your Elohim in vain, for will not hold him guiltless that takes His name in vain. Exodus 20: 7 (This is one of the Commands)​

Thy Name O YAHWEH, endureth forever; Thy memorial, O YAHWEH, throughout all generations. Psalm 135:13 ​

If YAHWEH be Elohim, follow Him; but if Baal, then follow him. 1Kings 18:21 (Hebrew: Baal = Lord) ​

There is more research it out for your self if you will.

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

 

[stinsonmarri]

Stinsonmarri, out of the ten tribes you identified as the “10 Kingdoms”, which ones were faithful to the Catholic faith around 476AD? The highlighted tribes on the list represent those you recognize were Arian at that time, along with the tribes Gibbon said had embraced Arianism as their national faith. So of the five that remain, which ones were Catholic around 476AD and what sources do you have that support this claim?

Visigoths
Anglo-Saxons
Franks
Alemanni
Lombards
Burgundians – (Gibbon)
Suevi – (Gibbon)
Heruli
Ostrogoths
Vandals

NumberOneSon:
I will continue to say as I have said read what I wrote to ECR post. That is where I will stand. I also told you that others German tribes were under Rome which were smaller groups. Also before some of these groups adopted Arianism they came under Constantine and some were already acepting the universal belief of the Catholic even during Paul's day. Finally I express to you that the word ten also mean universal. I have given you a long list of Germans people, tribe, and kindred. The above names were when they became nations. Many tribes merged and formed these final ten nations after Europe settled down from the vast migration from one place to another. The urban areas as I have provided you under the Constantine were already partially pagan Catholic which is what this faith umbrella all other pagan belief. How plan can I make it to you. I also provided other resource which show very clear that German tribes have been around Rome before it became a Republic. So if you break down the Catholic main belief it is the Trinity, it was already there. You just one to debate on the comment I made which I stand by. This forum was about the beast and its historical mystery. End of story.

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

 

[NumberOneSon]

I will continue to say as I have said read what I wrote to ECR post. That is where I will stand. I also told you that others German tribes were under Rome which were smaller groups. Also before some of these groups adopted Arianism they came under Constantine and some were already acepting the universal belief of the Catholic even during Paul's day.

And I’ve already agreed with you that during Constantine’s reign there were individuals and small groups of barbarians that converted to Catholicism. But where I disagree with you is your claim that “many of the 10 kingdoms KEPT THE FAITH BUT THREE and the three were becoming powerful”. When the “Heruli”, Vandals, and Ostrogoths were becoming powerful in the late 5th Century, none of the barbarian nations were keeping the Catholic faith at that time; their national religions were either paganism or Arianism. Regardless of how many barbarians were Catholic in Constantine’s day or regardless how many were Christian in Paul’s day, at the time when the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths were becoming powerful, none of the barbarian nations were Catholic. Do you understand this?

Finally I express to you that the word ten also mean universal. I have given you a long list of Germans people, tribe, and kindred. The above names were when they became nations. Many tribes merged and formed these final ten nations after Europe settled down from the vast migration from one place to another.

Yes. And some were pagan, some were Arian, and some were Catholic. But in the late 5th Century, the national religions of the barbarian tribes ruling over the Western provinces were either pagan or Arian. None of those barbarian tribes were keeping the Catholic faith, although the Roman masses under their rule certainly were.

The urban areas as I have provided you under the Constantine were already partially pagan Catholic which is what this faith umbrella all other pagan belief. How plan can I make it to you.

And how can I make it any plainer that it doesn’t matter what the faith of the barbarian tribes were under Constantine; what matters is what faith the barbarian nations were keeping at the time when the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths were becoming powerful in the late 5th Century, and I am waiting for you to provide evidence that 7 of the 10 kingdoms kept the Catholic faith in the late 5th Century.

I also provided other resource which show very clear that German tribes have been around Rome before it became a Republic.

I don’t doubt that for a moment. What I do doubt is that many of the 10 kingdoms were keeping the Catholic faith at the time when the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths were becoming powerful.

So if you break down the Catholic main belief it is the Trinity, it was already there.

Again, I don’t doubt that.

You just one to debate on the comment I made which I stand by.

Yes, I am debating that comment because I want you to substantiate it. The reason is, I’ve seen similar claims made by other Adventists in the past, but none of them have provided any evidence that most of the barbarian nations were Catholic in the 5th Century while three were Arian. I would like to see what you are basing this belief on. If you don't have any sources to support it, simply say so and we can bring this discussion to a close.

 

[stinsonmarri]

And I’ve already agreed with you that during Constantine’s reign there were individuals and small groups of barbarians that converted to Catholicism. But where I disagree with you is your claim that “many of the 10 kingdoms KEPT THE FAITH BUT THREE and the three were becoming powerful”. When the “Heruli”, Vandals, and Ostrogoths were becoming powerful in the late 5th Century, none of the barbarian nations were keeping the Catholic faith at that time; their national religions were either paganism or Arianism. Regardless of how many barbarians were Catholic in Constantine’s day or regardless how many were Christian in Paul’s day, at the time when the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths were becoming powerful, none of the barbarian nations were Catholic. Do you understand this?


Yes. And some were pagan, some were Arian, and some were Catholic. But in the late 5th Century, the national religions of the barbarian tribes ruling over the Western provinces were either pagan or Arian. None of those barbarian tribes were keeping the Catholic faith, although the Roman masses under their rule certainly were.


And how can I make it any plainer that it doesn’t matter what the faith of the barbarian tribes were under Constantine; what matters is what faith the barbarian nations were keeping at the time when the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths were becoming powerful in the late 5th Century, and I am waiting for you to provide evidence that 7 of the 10 kingdoms kept the Catholic faith in the late 5th Century.


I don’t doubt that for a moment. What I do doubt is that many of the 10 kingdoms were keeping the Catholic faith at the time when the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths were becoming powerful.


Again, I don’t doubt that.


Yes, I am debating that comment because I want you to substantiate it. The reason is, I’ve seen similar claims made by other Adventists in the past, but none of them have provided any evidence that most of the barbarian nations were Catholic in the 5th Century while three were Arian. I would like to see what you are basing this belief on. If you don't have any sources to support it, simply say so and we can bring this discussion to a close.

Notice you said doubt and the other is what Adventists claim. I provided you evidence that you refuse to accept. So be it. Just because I said what I said had nothing to do with me being an Adventist. Many come on this forum to rake certain beliefs that we have that are Bible base. It's more to condemn than to learn what is true. This the problem with you and you just confirm it. It had nothing at all to do with the facts or history (that was provided), because of what ADVENTIST BELIEVE!!!!Now I explain carefully to you the fact, admitted when I made a mistake, but it is not going to be accepted because your mind is made up!!! You are looking for anything to put down what I believe regardless and that where I stop. I will not continue this with you because it has become a mute point. I'm moving on and this is all I will say. Will I respond back to you sure but I will say again read what I wrote to ECR and that is where I stand. You doubt, I don't!!!!

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

 

[NumberOneSon]

Notice you said doubt and the other is what Adventists claim.

Yes, I doubt the claim because it has not been substantiated yet.

I provided you evidence that you refuse to accept. So be it.

You have not provided a single source describing how the religion of the majority of Germanic nations in 5th Century Europe was Catholic. Not one.

Just because I said what I said had nothing to do with me being an Adventist. Many come on this forum to rake certain beliefs that we have that are Bible base.

I haven’t raked your beliefs. I think I have been very respectful up to this point in our conversation, and have even gone out of my way to highlight areas where we do agree.

It's more to condemn than to learn what is true. This the problem with you and you just confirm it. It had nothing at all to do with the facts or history (that was provided), because of what ADVENTIST BELIEVE!!!!

It has everything to do with the facts of history. I simply pointed out that I have heard your claim from a few other Adventists.

Now I explain carefully to you the fact, admitted when I made a mistake, but it is not going to be accepted because your mind is made up!!!

And what was my response to you when you admitted your mistake concerning Arius? I said “Ok, no problem”. I did accept your apology, and let it go at that. If you recognize that you are mistaken concerning the faith of the 5th-Century Germanic kingdoms, I will respond with the same courtesy as I did concerning your Arius error.

You are looking for anything to put down what I believe regardless and that where I stop. I will not continue this with you because it has become a mute point. I'm moving on and this is all I will say.

If I was looking to put down anything you believe, then I wouldn’t have bothered to seek or acknowledge any point of agreement with you, and yet looking back over our conversation I can count at least 20 instances in which I vocalized my agreement concerning things you posted.

Will I respond back to you sure but I will say again read what I wrote to ECR and that is where I stand. You doubt, I don't!!!!

What you wrote to ECR doesn’t substantiate your claim about the Germanic nations keeping the Catholic faith at the time when the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths were becoming powerful, and neither does the web article you posted. Here are some pertinent sections from the article that mention when some of the tribes converted to Christianity:

Angles: “For over 50 years (after 519AD), the Germanic tribes in what is now England went unmolested by Christianity. They kept to the religion of their ancestors, and practiced rites as they had for eons. Then in 593 CE, Pope Gregory dispatched Augustine as a missionary to the Germanic tribes in England. He arrived in 597 CE on the Isle of Thanet, and started preaching to the Heathens.”

Saxons: “They long avoided becoming Christians and being incorporated into the orbit of the Frankish kingdom, but were decisively and brutally conquered by Charlemagne in a long series of annual campaigns (772-804). With defeat came the forced baptism and conversion of the Saxon leaders and their people to Christianity.”

Visigoths: “Settled in Dacia, the Visigoths adopted Arian Christianity which was in opposition to the belief of the main Christian group in the Roman Empire, which later grew into Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. The Visigoths adhered to Arianism until 589, when King Reccared I converted his people to Catholicism.”

Lombards: “When they entered Italy the Lombards were partly still pagan, partly Arian Christians, and hence got along very badly with the Roman Catholic Church. They were not converted to orthodox Christianity until well after the year 600.”

All of the information came from the source you provided, Stinsonmarri: The GERMANIC PEOPLES

So the highlighted list now includes tribes that Gibbon and your article recognize were Arian or pagan by the end of the 5th Century (the article does not state when the Alemanni or the Franks converted, although it mentions Clovis' personal conversion in 493AD):

Visigoths – (article)
Anglo-Saxons – (article)
Franks
Alemanni
Lombards – (article)
Burgundians – (Gibbon)
Suevi – (Gibbon)
Heruli
Ostrogoths
Vandals


So Stinsonmarri, do you have any sources stating that Catholicism was the national religion of the Alemanni or the Franks in the 5th Century? Regardless, based on what was admitted in your article we should be able to agree now that most of the 10 kingdoms (8 out of 10) were not keeping the Catholic faith in the 5th Century, and we can bring this conversation to a close. Sound reasonable?

 

[stinsonmarri]

Yes, I doubt the claim because it has not been substantiated yet.


You have not provided a single source describing how the religion of the majority of Germanic nations in 5th Century Europe was Catholic. Not one.

So you say!

I haven’t raked your beliefs. I think I have been very respectful up to this point in our conversation, and have even gone out of my way to highlight areas where we do agree.

Sure up to the point you made the statement about Adventist.

It has everything to do with the facts of history. I simply pointed out that I have heard your claim from a few other Adventists.

It is not just a claim of Adventist and I gave you facts. But people believe and see what they want to.

And what was my response to you when you admitted your mistake concerning Arius? I said “Ok, no problem”. I did accept your apology, and let it go at that. If you recognize that you are mistaken concerning the faith of the 5th-Century Germanic kingdoms, I will respond with the same courtesy as I did concerning your Arius error.

That's your opinion and I do not agree. I past my test in school with honors and I received my Degree. That's whom I rely on and not one who perfers or chooses to accept something base on a discrepency he finds in ones belief and not the historical facts! Case Close!

If I was looking to put down anything you believe, then I wouldn’t have bothered to seek or acknowledge any point of agreement with you, and yet looking back over our conversation I can count at least 20 instances in which I vocalized my agreement concerning things you posted.

Yes but their was a hidden agenda. I also agreed with you on certain facts as well.

What you wrote to ECR doesn’t substantiate your claim about the Germanic nations keeping the Catholic faith at the time when the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths were becoming powerful, and neither does the web article you posted. Here are some pertinent sections from the article that mention when some of the tribes converted to Christianity:

Angles: “For over 50 years (after 519AD), the Germanic tribes in what is now England went unmolested by Christianity. They kept to the religion of their ancestors, and practiced rites as they had for eons. Then in 593 CE, Pope Gregory dispatched Augustine as a missionary to the Germanic tribes in England. He arrived in 597 CE on the Isle of Thanet, and started preaching to the Heathens.”

Saxons: “They long avoided becoming Christians and being incorporated into the orbit of the Frankish kingdom, but were decisively and brutally conquered by Charlemagne in a long series of annual campaigns (772-804). With defeat came the forced baptism and conversion of the Saxon leaders and their people to Christianity.”

Visigoths: “Settled in Dacia, the Visigoths adopted Arian Christianity which was in opposition to the belief of the main Christian group in the Roman Empire, which later grew into Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. The Visigoths adhered to Arianism until 589, when King Reccared I converted his people to Catholicism.”

Lombards: “When they entered Italy the Lombards were partly still pagan, partly Arian Christians, and hence got along very badly with the Roman Catholic Church. They were not converted to orthodox Christianity until well after the year 600.”

And as I indicated and provided you was that some of the Lombards and other German tribes speaking the same dialect moved in earlier and did accept the Catholic religion. Also, I show you that in the urban areas they did observe some out of fear. The country side they kept to their individual pagan gods. Simple uncut.

All of the information came from the source you provided, Stinsonmarri: The GERMANIC PEOPLES

it is stinsonmarri ok thanks.

So the highlighted list now includes tribes that Gibbon and your article recognize were Arian or pagan by the end of the 5th Century (the article does not state when the Alemanni or the Franks converted, although it mentions Clovis' personal conversion in 493AD):

Visigoths – (article)
Anglo-Saxons – (article)
Franks
Alemanni
Lombards – (article)
Burgundians – (Gibbon)
Suevi – (Gibbon)
Heruli
Ostrogoths
Vandals


So Stinsonmarri, do you have any sources stating that Catholicism was the national religion of the Alemanni or the Franks in the 5th Century? Regardless, based on what was admitted in your article we should be able to agree now that most of the 10 kingdoms (8 out of 10) were not keeping the Catholic faith in the 5th Century, and we can bring this conversation to a close. Sound reasonable?

As I will say again I gave you the evidence and I provided the final to ECR. Check it read it because I've taken a stand. Believe or don't but I will not recant my statment. It was a game you played, I fail for it but you came out with the truth and now I'm done. I will still comment but this is what you will get from me. End of the story!

Happy Sabbath,
stinsonmarri

 

[NumberOneSon]

Well stinsonmarri, it looks like we’re just going around in circles at this point; I maintain that you haven’t provided sources pertaining to the national religions of the 5th-Century Germanic kingdoms, while you keep insisting you have. For the last time; even if it were true that some of the Lombards or some members of the other groups arrived in Europe during the 3rd Century or 4th Century - or earlier - and converted to the Catholic faith, I am asking for sources pertaining to the national faith of the Germanic kingdoms in the 5th Century when the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths were becoming powerful. National faith, stinsonmarri, 5th-Century.

In 476AD when the last Western Emperor was deposed, the national faith of the Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Suevi, Vandals, and Burgundians was Arianism; the national faith of the Franks, Alemanni , Angles, Saxons, Lombards, and probably the Heruli, was paganism. This was the era when the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths were becoming powerful, but none of those aforementioned kingdoms were being faithful to the Catholic faith at that time. Individual barbarians may have converted to Catholicism, but not nationally. I’m completely at a loss as to why you can’t seem to grasp this.

“Believe or don't but I will not recant my statement”

An admition of inflexibility unbecoming of a graduate with a degree in history.

 

[stinsonmarri]

NumberOneSon:

I have continually stated attempt to explain to you what I meant and you say and write exactly what I meant, but thencontradict yourself! So I gather together the information that I previously wrote before you question about the claim I made. This is what you said and I again for the final last time expound on what I said and hope it will stick.​

Well stinsonmarri, it looks like we’re just going around in circles at this point; I maintain that you haven’t provided sources pertaining to the national religions of the 5th-Century Germanic kingdoms, while you keep insisting you have. For the last time; even if it were true that some of the Lombards or some members of the other groups arrived in Europe during the 3rd Century or 4th Century - or earlier - and converted to the Catholic faith, I am asking for sources pertaining to the national faith of the Germanic kingdoms in the 5th Century when the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths were becoming powerful. National faith, stinsonmarri, 5th-Century. See here it is you agree on what I said and meant but still do not get it. Wow!!!!! I also stated clearly:​

However, the ten kingdom of Europe has affected the entire earth universally. Remember another horn came up out of the then and pluck up three of the ten horns which, history once again compliments the Bible. The Bible makes it clear that three of the ten horns on the head of the beast were pluck by the roots and they are the Vandals in A.D. 455, the Heruli in 493 and finally the Ostrogoths in 538 (should have been 548). These three kings had a religion called Arianism that Satan attempted to defeat the prophecy of Catholicism rule. It did not work and the Papacy moved from a church religion into both political and religious rule. The hold that Greco-Rome once held struggled as the empire began to crumble into separate kingdoms. Many of the ten kingdoms kept the faith but three and the three kingdoms were becoming powerful.​

The main point I was providing if you read the whole paragraph that Catholicism remain after the destruction of the three kingdoms. It was not until these three were pluck up completely that Europe became recognized as 10 separate kingdom but Charlemagne united the 10 complete as Catholic's.

In 476AD when the last Western Emperor was deposed, the national faith of the Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Suevi, Vandals, and Burgundians was Arianism; the national faith of the Franks, Alemani, Angles, Saxons, Lombards, and probably the Heruli, was paganism. This was the era when the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths were becoming powerful, but none of those aforementioned kingdoms were being faithful to the Catholic faith at that time. Individual barbarians may have converted to Catholicism, but not nationally. I’m completely at a loss as to why you can’t seem to grasp this.​

I never said that anywhere at all! ​

What I claim is that they became under Catholicism but the church accepted their paganism beliefs. ​

Never did I say any Germanic Tribe that was not under the rule of the Roman Empire. They all had not completely migrated fully into Europe. All who came under the Roman Empire and was Christianized somewhat became Catholic before Arianism and Constantine just made it official. Did they still hold on to their pagan belief and custom? Yes, some did become more faithful in the Catholic but a lot did not, only pretended to do so when it was force on them. By the time the Franks became fully converted it all changed simple.​

We have not gone around in circle you have not read correctly or understood what I wrote, so I collected it for you. My point is what you appear to understand as I again will let you read it from your own words:​

For the last time; even if it were true that some of the Lombards or some members of the other groups arrived in Europe during the 3rd Century or 4th Century - or earlier - and converted to the Catholic faith​

That is exactly what I meant and nothing else you have made claim that is not in my writings. This is what I originally adhere too and stand firmly with and there should be no doubt about SDA factual historical point!​

Happy Sabbath​

stinsonmarri

 

[NumberOneSon]

I have continually stated attempt to explain to you what I meant and you say and write exactly what I meant, but thencontradict yourself!

I would like to know if EastCoast or anyone else following this discussion agrees with stinsonmarri that I have contradicted myself in previous posts? Conversely, have her responses addressed the national religions of the 10 barbarian kingdoms at the time when the “Heruli”, Vandal, and Ostrogothic kingdoms were becoming powerful? I think some outside perspectives would be appreciated since she and I seem to be spinning our tires.

See here it is you agree on what I said and meant but still do not get it. Wow!!!!!

I have agreed with you on several occasions that some barbarians converted to the Catholic faith in the 4th Century, just like there were some that converted to Arianism as well, or remained pagan. Where we disagree is the part where you claim that many of the barbarian kingdoms were keeping the Catholic faith at the time when the Heruli, Vandal, and Ostrogothic kingdoms were becoming powerful. I maintain that all of the barbarian kingdoms were keeping Arianism or paganism as their national faith at the time when the “Heruli”, Vandals, and Ostrogothic kingdoms were becoming powerful in the late 5th Century….and the irony is, we both have provided sources that confirm what I’ve stated.

The Bible makes it clear that three of the ten horns on the head of the beast were pluck by the roots and they are the Vandals in A.D. 455 the Heruli in 493

The Heruli under Odoacer were either destroyed or integrated into the Ostrogoths’ forces; but the Heruli themselves were not uprooted. Their kingdom north of the Danube was destroyed by the Lombards early in the 6th Century and they began to convert to the Catholic faith after 527AD when a Heruli king named Gretes was baptized in Constantinople under Justinian’s supervision (Romans and Barbarians, Thompson, pg. 242) . The emperor gave the Heruli a settlement in Pannonia as a reward for their conversion, and several thousand Heruls were allied with Rome during the Vandal and Ostrogothic wars. The 6th Century historian, Procopius, dedicated an entire chapter of his History of the Wars concerning the continued existence of the Heruls (Book 6 Chapter 15). The Liber Pontificalis also tells us of a Heruli revolt in 565AD led by a king named Sinduald that “oppressed all (northern) Italy” (Vol. I, pg. 163).

and finally the Ostrogoths in 538 (should have been 548).

What? In 549AD, King Totila began the third siege of Rome, and he succeeded in taking the city by the end of the year. In 550AD, the Ostrogoths had conquered all of Italy with the exception of Ravenna and three other coastal cities (Theodoric the Goth, Hodgkin, pg 362). How were the Ostrogoths “uprooted” in 548AD?

These three kings had a religion called Arianism that Satan attempted to defeat the prophecy of Catholicism rule.

Six of those “kings” had a religion called Arianism; the Visigoths, Sueves, Burgundians, Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths; they were all Arian kingdoms at the time when the “three” were becoming powerful. The other “kings” (the Franks, Alemanni , Angles, Saxons, and Lombards) were pagan; none of them were Catholic kingdoms at that time.

Many of the ten kingdoms kept the faith but three and the three kingdoms were becoming powerful.

At the time when the three were becoming powerful, none of the aforementioned kingdoms were keeping the Catholic faith. There may have been individual barbarians who converted to the Catholic creed, but the national faith of the tribes was either Arianism or paganism at that time. For example, the Ostrogothic king Theodoric had a mother who converted to the Catholic faith (Rise of Christianity, Frend, pg. 806). But despite her conversion, the national faith of the Ostrogoths remained Arianism.

What I claim is that they became under Catholicism but the church accepted their paganism beliefs.

I understand that, but this is not the claim I’ve had an issue with.

All who came under the Roman Empire and was Christianized somewhat became Catholic before Arianism and Constantine just made it official.

But the few barbarians that became Christianized during or before Constantine’s reign were not representative of the Völkerwanderung, the mass exodus of barbarians into the empire that created the “10 kingdoms” you previously recognized. Do you understand that just because there were a number of barbarians keeping the “Catholic” faith before or during Costantine’s reign, it does not mean the barbarian kingdoms of the late 5th Century were keeping the same faith? The truth is, they weren't.

 

[steve v c]

When one takes Rev.17:3 as the point of reference for the five that have fallen, given by the revelator himself, everything falls into place. It is not a human assumption or speculation but a revealed fact. 1798 is the revealed point of reference.

In all due respect BoWing took John's own day as the point of reference for the 5 that have fallen. I have no way of knowing if he was aware of that. He may have been quoting from someone. I know that Uriah Smith took John's own day as the point of reference but he obviously was wrong on that.

If we take John's own day as the point of reference we have to include Egypt and Assyria but these two are not mentioned in the visions of the prophet Daniel. Now let us see what we have if we take John's own day as the point of reference.

5 have fallen:

1) Greece
2) Medo Persia
3) Babylon
4) Egypt
5) Assyria

One is:

Pagan Rome

And three are yet to come

Papal Rome
Atheistic France
Apostate Protestantism when it shall reveive a kingdom.

But the prophecy says that after the one that is, one is yet to come, not three!

But if we take Rev.17:3 as the revealed point of reference, which is 1798, we now have:

5 have fallen

1) Papal Rome
2) Pagan Rome
3) Greece
4) Medo-Persia
5) Babylon the head of gold

One is:

Atheistic France

One is yet to come:

Apostate Protestantism

And then there is the eighth which is one of the seven who was, is not, and yet is again and that is the Papal power who before 1798 was, after 1798 is not, and yet is again when the wound is healed.

sky

the us is the 1st beast in rev i3. a beast is an empire as is a head. the 7 heads are 7 empires previous to the beast and from which the beast comes. they are the tower of babel civilization Babylon, Egypt, Assyria, mede-persia, the greek empire of alexander, the roman empire, the 10 horns, the name for the European imperialistic colonizing nations that started with 10 nations around 400ad, the us of america being an 8th head for a head is also a beast.

 

[CaptainToad]

sorry, double post, please remove this one!

 

[CaptainToad]

I heard a lot of theories about this from SDAs. These changed pretty quickly, depending on circumstances and world events. Last one I heard was that pope benedict was the one who was to stay for just a little while.

Yeah, you get what I mean to say

Personally, I think the little horn of daniel 7 is the one who is to stay just a little while - makes sense if you give it some thought