Executed Prisoners May Have Been "Aware" of What Was Happening

[Plan 9]

Romans chapter 13 was mentioned several times in this thread as a proof text for capital punishment. Actually it is a proof text for governments enforcing law by force. Police carry guns......I agree with the catholic church on this one. The death penalty is not neccesary in order to protect society from criminals. The use of force on some occasions is neccesary to protect society. Police should take every option available within reason to take people into custody without killing them or injuring them. But on some occasions criminals will get shot and killed by police.

It is a heavy thing for citizens to pool their resources and equip the government with the power of force. Can any of us resist that power?? If the government puts it's resources , as in police, military , etc. to bear upon you , you will lose. That power is given for the keeping of the peace. Not for the carrying out of revenge while individual citizens hide behind flimsy excuses that they did not actually pull the switch. The power of govenrment is givne to enforce the peace and to enforce the law and the will of the governing power. That is what Romans 13 teaches. How that power is used is another question altogether.

I believe in showing mercy. sometimes froce is a neccesary evil we must employ because of the world we live in. But it is used with restraint and in a measured way with the goal of the common good in mind. Bottomline , this can be accomplished without the death penalty.

Beautifully put, Yitzchak!

 

[rosenherman]

Seems that way!
I was raised Christian. I love the Christian religion. It's where I get most of my values from. Without Christianity, I don't know where I would be. But I don't believe in God.

That's okay, He believes in you.

 

[Yitzchak]

I am dissappointed with the attitudes that many Americans have not just with the death penalty but with the justice system in general. This attitude of stick it to them because they did something wrong is not right. Instead of looking for real solutions to the social problems that exist , many Americans want to sweep it under the carpet somewhere. This is the underlying attitude that I see over and over which leads to the dehuminization of others who are not convient.

If the homeless people are a problem, then ban them from my part of the city. make strictor laws against begging. Or do like the mayor of New York did, make "clean" areas and ban inappropriate content and other offensive social problems from those areas. American politics is built upon this idea that the "other guy" is a bum or somehow not upstanding like me.

The fact is that there are many problems in society. It is not the "other guy" who is the problem. It is our neighbors and family members. We are all connected. If a Christian is caught doing something wrong, the church says "he was never truelly one of us". If an American does something wrong , people are so quick to say "he was never a true American". America is made up of a diverse culture. The presumption is " I would never do something like that." Truelly history repeats itself. We have a generation of Christian pharisees who fail to see their own hearts and judge the sins of others harshly.

 

[12volt_man]

Seems that way!

Actually, if you had bothered to study the teachings of Jesus that you now chide us for not following, you would have seen that He told us, "If you love Me, then you'll follow My commandments".

And to answer your question, I believe Jesus means that we have NO authority to execute anyone, when we are sinning ourselves. All sins come between us and God.

Again, you're confusing two different things: judging sin and upholding civil law.

For the umpteenth time, it was Jesus who give the state that responsibility in the first place.

I believe, like abortion, capital punishment is state-sanctioned murder. If the Bible tells us we are to punish criminals, fine. Lock them up and throw away the key. Don't let them escape punishment by giving them a one-way ticket to oblivion.

But the problem is that the Bible tells us how we are to punish criminals.

Paul tells us in his letter to the Romans that God has ordained the government
to "wield the sword to punish evildoers (that's referring to capital punishment) and protect the innocent".

And no less a spiritual authority than Jesus Christ tells us that the authority to carry out capital punishment comes directly from God.

I was raised Christian. I love the Christian religion. It's where I get most of my values from. Without Christianity, I don't know where I would be. But I don't believe in God.

No, what you mean is that you love parts of it.

You can't say you love Christianity and then disregard it's teachings.

 

[12volt_man]

I am dissappointed with the attitudes that many Americans have not just with the detah penalty but with the justice system in general. This attitude of stick it to them because they did something wrong is not right. Instead of looking for real solutions to the social problems that exist , many Americans want to sweep it under the carpet somewhere. This is the underlying attitude that I see over and over which leads to the dehuminization of others who are not convient.

So then, do you believe that it's ever right to punish criminals or should we just throw open the doors to the prisons?

If the homeless people are a problem, then ban them from my part of the city. make strictor laws against begging.

I tend to agree with this, since nuisence crimes encourage more serious crimes. Are you familiar with the "broken window syndrome"?

I cannot walk from Independence Mall to City Hall without being accosted by as many as ten bums. Why should we not try to clean our city up?

Or do like the mayor of New York did, make "clean" areas and ban inappropriate content and other offensive social problems from those areas. American politics is built upon this idea that the "other guy" is a bum or somehow not upstanding like me.

As someone who is familiar with Times Square and 42 St before the change and after, thank God somebody did something.

Granted, it's a little less exciting and the idea of a $7.00 beer at B.B. King's is iritating, I like the fact that I don't have to step over winos and have drug dealers hassling me.

The only change I don't like is that the Black Israelites are never out in front of the Port Authority any more.

We have a generation of Christian pharisees who fail to see their own hearts and judge the sins of others harshly.

I think the problem here is that you don't seem to understand that the role of government is to protect the rights of honest people, not to pander to those who are dishonest.

 

[Plan 9]

I am dissappointed with the attitudes that many Americans have not just with the detah penalty but with the justice system in general. This attitude of stick it to them because they did something wrong is not right. Instead of looking for real solutions to the social problems that exist , many Americans want to sweep it under the carpet somewhere. This is the underlying attitude that I see over and over which leads to the dehuminization of others who are not convient.

If the homeless people are a problem, then ban them from my part of the city. make strictor laws against begging. Or do like the mayor of New York did, make "clean" areas and ban inappropriate content and other offensive social problems from those areas. American politics is built upon this idea that the "other guy" is a bum or somehow not upstanding like me.

The fact is that there are many problems in society. It is not the "other guy" who is the problem. It is our neighbors and family members. We are all connected. If a Christian is caught doing something wrong, the church says "he was never truelly one of us". If an American does something wrong , people are so quick to say "he was never a true American". America is made up of a diverse culture. The presumption is " I would never do something like that." Truelly history repeats itself. We have a generation of Christian pharisees who fail to see their own hearts and judge the sins of others harshly.

Again, I agree with you, and I find it a terrile thing.
My brother told me that, years ago, when he first started with the NYC Park Department, those employees like himself who had little or no senority were asked to volunteer to throw the homeless out of Central Park early in the morning, and than tear down the makeshift shelters they had made for themselves. He said he hated the thought of doing this because he knew there weren't enough real shelters in the city for them, but that he never had to because he could always count on some "Nazi" employess, as he put it, to raise their hands.
Years later, when he was teaching unemployed New Yorkers how to garden, as part of an employment program, he loved the job; he said that some of them had never held a seed in their hands before, but often they weren't able to show up because they'd accumulated too many parking tickets.
He was very frustrated because how were they supposed to learn a skill so that they could find jobs to pay their tickets, if they got in trouble for not paying their tickets?!

My brother isn't a Christian, and he may never be as long as we assert that it's the "Christian way" to look down on others less fortunate than ourselves, and to tighten the screws of the Justice system on them in such a cruel fashion, while teliing everyone how Godly a thing it is to do so.
What motivation does any compassionate non-Christian have to adopt our belief system when it appears to be so much more cruel and uncaring than theirs?

 

[WalksWithChrist]

Yes. I and others have already pointed this out in other places in this thread.



Could you please show me where in the Bible Jesus absolves someone of the legal consequences of their actions?

Notice that even the thief on the cross, whom Jesus had mercy on, still had to die for his crimes.

Before you say, "but what about the woman caught in adultery", notice that Jesus forgave her sin, but did not absolve her of the legal consequences. In fact, He challenged the leaders to execute her.



Sure, we should show love to muderers. There but by the grace of God go we all.

The problem is that we're not talking about love, we're talking about carrying out justice in matters of civil law.

When Paul tells us that God has ordained the government to "wield the sword to punish evildoers and protect the innocent", nowhere does he tell us that the state has a responsibility to "love" anyone.

Jesus created the death penalty? That's absurd. Seriously. And the story about the prostitute you have completely misinterpreted to support your argument. The point of the story is that Jesus KNEW there were none without sin in the crowd. He KNEW that given his conditions none of them could cast a stone. He was hardly encouraging them to kill the woman. He was trying to demonstrate that she was a sinner just as they were. I must point out that few in the Bible understood Jesus' teachings on the surface. It's easy to misinterpret his teachings sometimes.

 

[12volt_man]

Jesus created the death penalty? That's absurd.

Do you believe that Jesus is God?

And the story about the prostitute you have completely misinterpreted to support your argument. The point of the story is that Jesus KNEW there were none without sin in the crowd. He KNEW that given his conditions none of them could cast a stone. He was hardly encouraging them to kill the woman. He was trying to demonstrate that she was a sinner just as they were.

How have I misinterpreted it, when I never said anything contrary to the things you've said here?

If I misinterpret it, but I agree with your interpretation, does that mean that you misinterpret it, too?

I tend to agree with your interpretation but that doesn't negate the fact that this verse is often used to condemn the death penalty when it does no such thing.

I must point out that few in the Bible understood Jesus' teachings on the surface. It's easy to misinterpret his teachings sometimes.[/QUOTE]

 

[daidhaid]

I would imagine He's shaking His head saying, "OK, so if they're going to ignore My commands concerning civil law, how long will it be until they ignore My commands about moral law?"



Maybe that's because you're on the outside and are unfamiliar with Biblical teaching.



So then, you engage in deception and dishonesty.

How, then, are we supposed to take what you say seriously?

as it happens I'm more than familiar with biblical teaching.
Yes yes an eye for an eye I do sometimes engage in deception to illustrate the point. Which in this case is the depravity and gullibility of many Christians.
Therefore I always fess up to my sly fabrications. After all laughter is the best medicine...
And by no means should you take me seriously. Hell I don't even do that.
I'm just another finger pointing at the moon.

 

[k]

If Jesus is all for the DP, why did he die for us?

 

[WalksWithChrist]

Do you believe that Jesus is God?

Jesus came to fulfill the prophecies from the OT not perpetuate them. Your attempt to say that since Jesus is God, then *he* created the DP isn't correct.

How have I misinterpreted it, when I never said anything contrary to the things you've said here?

If I misinterpret it, but I agree with your interpretation, does that mean that you misinterpret it, too?

I tend to agree with your interpretation but that doesn't negate the fact that this verse is often used to condemn the death penalty when it does no such thing.

If Jesus created the DP as you say, then he would have had no qualms with it in this case. Then, as today, we have no sinless people with the authority to carry out a sentence of death. And certainly not in this justice system we have in the US. Can't we at least agree on that point?

 

[Yitzchak]

So then, do you believe that it's ever right to punish criminals or should we just throw open the doors to the prisons?

The Government has the responsibility to protect society. Some people need to have limits set upon them. However, setting limits upon behavior by locking people up is only the first step of addressing the social problems behind the crimes. I am in favor of the government enforcing limits upon behavior. I am also in favor of the government having socail programs which attempt to get to the bottom of these behaviors.

I tend to agree with this, since nuisence crimes encourage more serious crimes. Are you familiar with the "broken window syndrome"?

I am not familiar with the broken window syndrome.

I cannot walk from Independence Mall to City Hall without being accosted by as many as ten bums. Why should we not try to clean our city up?

I am in favor of really cleaning up the city. But only cleaning up select parts and not really helping those who are homeless is not fixing anything. It is just plain politics.

As someone who is familiar with Times Square and 42 St before the change and after, thank God somebody did something.

Granted, it's a little less exciting and the idea of a $7.00 beer at B.B. King's is iritating, I like the fact that I don't have to step over winos and have drug dealers hassling me.

The only change I don't like is that the Black Israelites are never out in front of the Port Authority any more.

My problem is that there is still drug dealing and winos . It is just that they are in another part of the city. The poor part actually. The mayor has let down that part of the city.

I think the problem here is that you don't seem to understand that the role of government is to protect the rights of honest people, not to pander to those who are dishonest.

Actually the role of the government is to protect the rights of ALL of it's citizens. I understand correctly that there is a judgment made by many that they are somehow better than "the criminals" and that those criminals don't deserve the same rights as non-criminals. I simply disagree and believe that everyone has equal rights and value.

 

[12volt_man]

If Jesus is all for the DP, why did he die for us?

So that we could be reconciled to God.

If Jesus' death was a statement against the death penalty, then why did He not keep the thief next to Him from dying?

 

[12volt_man]

Jesus came to fulfill the prophecies from the OT not perpetuate them. Your attempt to say that since Jesus is God, then *he* created the DP isn't correct.

So then, you don't believe that Jesus is God?

If Jesus created the DP as you say, then he would have had no qualms with it in this case. Then, as today, we have no sinless people with the authority to carry out a sentence of death.

I've already addressed the differences between the two several times now.

And certainly not in this justice system we have in the US. Can't we at least agree on that point?

No. I don't agree on that, since our justice system does not judge sin, but crime. For the umpteenth time, they are not the same things.

 

[Ninja Turtles]

I think regardless of one's position on whether it is just to have a death penalty, it is ignorant to ignore the systemic problems that are present in the current system. I don't think that should be tolerated and the problems aren't just minor. If you truly support a death penalty, then at least a temporary halt of executions is in order.

 

[12volt_man]

The Government has the responsibility to protect society. Some people need to have limits set upon them. However, setting limits upon behavior by locking people up is only the first step of addressing the social problems behind the crimes. I am in favor of the government enforcing limits upon behavior. I am also in favor of the government having socail programs which attempt to get to the bottom of these behaviors.

The problem is that it's not the role of the government, nor does the government have the authority under the Constitution, to engage in social experimentation.

I am not familiar with the broken window syndrome.

In a nutshell, it's a theory that, where neighborhoods become dilapidated and nuisence crimes are allowed to go unchecked, poverty and more serious crime flourishes. It's been proven to be true in many different studies in the 70's and 80's and, now, in Times Square.

I am in favor of really cleaning up the city. But only cleaning up select parts and not really helping those who are homeless is not fixing anything. It is just plain politics.

For a city who's main source of income is tourism, it is perfectly reasonable to clean up tourist areas first.

My problem is that there is still drug dealing and winos . It is just that they are in another part of the city. The poor part actually. The mayor has let down that part of the city.

It's not the government's responsibility to take care of the poor. Let's let the government enforce the law and make it undesirable to be a drug dealer or a bum.

Actually the role of the government is to protect the rights of ALL of it's citizens.

I disagree.

Criminals routinely surrender rights for the good of society.

Drunk drivers can't drive. Batterers can't carry a weapon. Felons can't vote.

I understand correctly that there is a judgment made by many that they are somehow better than "the criminals" and that those criminals don't deserve the same rights as non-criminals. I simply disagree and believe that everyone has equal rights and value.

And I disagree. I don't believe that a rapist or child molestor has a right to practice his crime.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

So then, you don't believe that Jesus is God?




I've already addressed the differences between the two several times now.



No. I don't agree on that, since our justice system does not judge sin, but crime. For the umpteenth time, they are not the same things.

Respectfully...never mind.

 

[DaveShi]

eye opening thread