Executed Prisoners May Have Been "Aware" of What Was Happening

[daidhaid]

I don't get this at all.

Why are so many Christians for the death penalty?

Isn't the point of being a Christian to be Christ-like? I know if I saw Jesus lethally injecting someone and putting them to death, I would never in a million years call him my messiah. And isn't Christianity about forgiveness, and second chances?

And why are some Christians anti-abortion (pro-life), but pro-death penalty?

I still don't get it!

i'm actually surprised to see there are a few Christians in here,who are opposed to state sanctioned killing, and willing to buck the majority.

I bet Jesus is shaking His head over his followers supporting the death penalty.
Somehow executions, war, and tax relief have become Christian doctines.

From the outside looking in it doesn't look Christlike. But what the heck.

I put some of the weirdest most coldhearted stuff from the forum,up at work, and boy oh boy does it make Christians look bad to goofy.
It often leads to some spirited and rather foolish attempts by Christians to justify their really un-Christlike behaviour.

Not many souls get saved after seeing this sort of unlove in action.
But it gets a lot of attention, on the subject.
It's got so that I can even occasionaly make up outlandish statements and attribute them to Christians, and be believed, even by the Christians.
The point being almost any belief can fit into Modern Christianity.
If you don't believe me now, listen to xtian radio, watch the tv preachers or just keep reading the Christian Forum...

 

[WalksWithChrist]

My experience tells me that "the majority" is often wrong on a great many things. = )

 

[12volt_man]

I don't get this at all.

Why are so many Christians for the death penalty?

Isn't the point of being a Christian to be Christ-like?

But how can you say you want to be Christ like and not believe in a system that Jesus, Himself, put into place.

And isn't Christianity about forgiveness, and second chances?

Not in the sense that you mean.

God forgives us of sin. Nowhere in scripture are we told that we don't have to face the legal ramifications of our actions.

And why are some Christians anti-abortion (pro-life), but pro-death penalty?

I don't see many stories in the paper about little babies murdering, raping, torturing or kidnapping people.

There is a world of difference between carrying out justice to a convicted murderer and killing an innocent little baby because Becky Sue wants to go to the prom.

 

[12volt_man]

I bet Jesus is shaking His head over his followers supporting the death penalty.

I would imagine He's shaking His head saying, "OK, so if they're going to ignore My commands concerning civil law, how long will it be until they ignore My commands about moral law?"

From the outside looking in it doesn't look Christlike. But what the heck.

Maybe that's because you're on the outside and are unfamiliar with Biblical teaching.

It's got so that I can even occasionaly make up outlandish statements and attribute them to Christians, and be believed, even by the Christians.

So then, you engage in deception and dishonesty.

How, then, are we supposed to take what you say seriously?

 

[MRGUK]

But how can you say you want to be Christ like and not believe in a system that Jesus, Himself, put into place.

Jesus put the death penalty in place?

Not in the sense that you mean.

God forgives us of sin. Nowhere in scripture are we told that we don't have to face the legal ramifications of our actions.

But isn't the point of being a Christian to be Christ-like? And doesn't Jesus forgive?

I don't see many stories in the paper about little babies murdering, raping, torturing or kidnapping people.

There is a world of difference between carrying out justice to a convicted murderer and killing an innocent little baby because Becky Sue wants to go to the prom.

But aren't all humans loved the same in the eyes of God? Aren't we all of equal worth to him? Or does raping, murdering etc make God love you less? And if it doesn't, why can't we still love these murderers, but punish them in a humane way? And if we are all loved in the eyes of God, then why is one death OK, but another death not? A human life is a human life. I don't care if it's a day old baby, or a 50 year old serial killer. Do you think God cares?

 

[12volt_man]

Jesus put the death penalty in place?

Yes. I and others have already pointed this out in other places in this thread.

But isn't the point of being a Christian to be Christ-like? And doesn't Jesus forgive?

Could you please show me where in the Bible Jesus absolves someone of the legal consequences of their actions?

Notice that even the thief on the cross, whom Jesus had mercy on, still had to die for his crimes.

Before you say, "but what about the woman caught in adultery", notice that Jesus forgave her sin, but did not absolve her of the legal consequences. In fact, He challenged the leaders to execute her.

But aren't all humans loved the same in the eyes of God? Aren't we all of equal worth to him? Or does raping, murdering etc make God love you less? And if it doesn't, why can't we still love these murderers, but punish them in a humane way? And if we are all loved in the eyes of God, then why is one death OK, but another death not? A human life is a human life. I don't care if it's a day old baby, or a 50 year old serial killer. Do you think God cares?

Sure, we should show love to muderers. There but by the grace of God go we all.

The problem is that we're not talking about love, we're talking about carrying out justice in matters of civil law.

When Paul tells us that God has ordained the government to "wield the sword to punish evildoers and protect the innocent", nowhere does he tell us that the state has a responsibility to "love" anyone.

 

[Ninja Turtles]

Before you say, "but what about the woman caught in adultery", notice that Jesus forgave her sin, but did not absolve her of the legal consequences. In fact, He challenged the leaders to execute her.

Wow, that comes off totally twisted.

 

[12volt_man]

Wow, that comes off totally twisted.

How so?

Do you mean about challenging them to execute her?

He held up a rock, pointed at somebody and said, "Alright, you do it...No?...How about you?....Why not? She's guilty, isn't she?...You there. You're a keeper of the law. You do it..." until there was nobody left.

 

[rosenherman]

FULL STORY CAN BE FOUND HERE

I'd suggest that everyone read the article in it's entirity. More and more evidence points to the fact that the death penalty is not only cruel and inhumane, but completely barbaric and out of step with the society in 2005.

1. The death penalty unfairly targets minorities and the poor.

Wrong

2. It costs more to execute someone than to house them for life in prison.

Way wrong

3. There have been many cases of innocents being exonerated and released from death row...how many innocents have been executed?

Really sad

...and NOW, it seems, our 'humane' way of killing our fellow citizens turns out to be not so humane after alll....when will we finally get rid of this archaic and EVIL system of punishment?

It's neither archaic nor evil. However it is wrong in that it doesn't give them the opportunity to repent before they die and accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

 

[MRGUK]

Yes. I and others have already pointed this out in other places in this thread.

Sorry, don't have enough time to read the entire thread! I'll try later.

Could you please show me where in the Bible Jesus absolves someone of the legal consequences of their actions?

Notice that even the thief on the cross, whom Jesus had mercy on, still had to die for his crimes.

Before you say, "but what about the woman caught in adultery", notice that Jesus forgave her sin, but did not absolve her of the legal consequences. In fact, He challenged the leaders to execute her.

Ahh, but show me where Jesus put someone to death.

The adultress... Jesus does challenge them to put her to death, but isn't this where his lovely quote "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" appears?

Sure, we should show love to muderers. There but by the grace of God go we all.

The problem is that we're not talking about love, we're talking about carrying out justice in matters of civil law.

When Paul tells us that God has ordained the government to "wield the sword to punish evildoers and protect the innocent", nowhere does he tell us that the state has a responsibility to "love" anyone.

I'm not talking about the state's responsibilities; I'm asking why some Christians agree with it. For a Christian, shouldn't love come into everything? Isn't this what Jesus talked about? Is the government exempt from Jesus' command to love everyone, no matter what they have done, just as God does? Why is murdering an adult because an imperfect government says it's ok, worse than murdering a baby if they are equals in the eyes of God? Why aren't "all loving" Christians up in arms against ALL forms of death and murder?

 

[Ninja Turtles]

The death penalty does cost more than life in prison.

 

[rosenherman]

The death penalty does cost more than life in prison.

Wrong

 

[12volt_man]

Ahh, but show me where Jesus put someone to death.

So then, He instituted an order and gave a command but never intended us to follow it?

The adultress... Jesus does challenge them to put her to death, but isn't this where his lovely quote "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" appears?

Absolutely. This, of course brings up that nasty little word that you libs hate so much: context.

In what context did He say this? Could it be that they're stoning her for unjust reasons? That they did not have the moral authority to stone her?

I'm not talking about the state's responsibilities; I'm asking why some Christians agree with it. For a Christian, shouldn't love come into everything? Isn't this what Jesus talked about?

Again, you're confusing Jesus' commands to His followers with the Bible's description of the reponsibilities of the state. Responsibilities that the Bible tells us that Jesus implemented, by the way.

Is the government exempt from Jesus' command to love everyone, no matter what they have done, just as God does?

Yes.

Why is murdering an adult because an imperfect government says it's ok, worse than murdering a baby if they are equals in the eyes of God? Why aren't "all loving" Christians up in arms against ALL forms of death and murder?

We're not talking about murder, we're talking about capital punishment.

Remember, the Bible distinguishes between kinds of killing.

The word commonly translated and "murder", as in, "thou shalt not...", is ratsach. Notice that we never see this word or the negative language associated with it referring to killing in the course of war, self defense or capital punishment.

It's always a little confusing when a non-Christian tells us we're not being "Christian" enough and that we could be more Christian if only we'd ignore the teachings of Christ.

 

[Ninja Turtles]

Wrong

No, you're wrong. You seem to ignore the cost of seeking the death penalty also...

 

[rosenherman]

No, you're wrong. You seem to ignore the cost of seeking the death penalty also...

Saying don't make it so.

 

[Ninja Turtles]

Saying don't make it so.

LOL, it would help if you proved your statement in the first place.

 

[rosenherman]

LOL, it would help if you proved your statement in the first place.

I'll be glad to refute the original false charge.

 

[Yitzchak]

I would make the consequences for all crimes much worse then they are. I'd make prison a horrible place that no one would want to go to. I have no sympathy for those who know the law and break it. Apparently alot of people here do, which I don't understand.

I will go on record as saying that I have sympathy upon even criminals. I don't willfully inflict suffering upon any human being.

 

[MRGUK]

So then, He instituted an order and gave a command but never intended us to follow it?

Seems that way!

Absolutely. This, of course brings up that nasty little word that you libs hate so much: context.

In what context did He say this? Could it be that they're stoning her for unjust reasons? That they did not have the moral authority to stone her?

So I'm a liberal and demand context just because I'm against the death penalty? Sorry, no. I can be conservative in other areas and still be against the death penalty. Pro-life (in both ways though!), limited asylum and immigration (big problem in the UK at the minute), corporal punishment, more policing, lower taxes, better healthcare, supporting Pres. Bush and Blair with the war on terror, oppose EU constitution, bring powers back from the EU to my government... I could go on, but I'm sure you get the picture

And to answer your question, I believe Jesus means that we have NO authority to execute anyone, when we are sinning ourselves. All sins come between us and God.

Again, you're confusing Jesus' commands to His followers with the Bible's description of the reponsibilities of the state. Responsibilities that the Bible tells us that Jesus implemented, by the way.



Yes.

I can honestly say I've never heard this before. I suppose I'll look into it, and can continue this line of discussion later.

We're not talking about murder, we're talking about capital punishment.

Remember, the Bible distinguishes between kinds of killing.

The word commonly translated and "murder", as in, "thou shalt not...", is ratsach. Notice that we never see this word or the negative language associated with it referring to killing in the course of war, self defense or capital punishment.

I believe, like abortion, capital punishment is state-sanctioned murder. If the Bible tells us we are to punish criminals, fine. Lock them up and throw away the key. Don't let them escape punishment by giving them a one-way ticket to oblivion.

It's always a little confusing when a non-Christian tells us we're not being "Christian" enough and that we could be more Christian if only we'd ignore the teachings of Christ.

I was raised Christian. I love the Christian religion. It's where I get most of my values from. Without Christianity, I don't know where I would be. But I don't believe in God.

 

[Yitzchak]

Romans chapter 13 was mentioned several times in this thread as a proof text for capital punishment. Actually it is a proof text for governments enforcing law by force. Police carry guns......I agree with the catholic church on this one. The death penalty is not neccesary in order to protect society from criminals. The use of force on some occasions is neccesary to protect society. Police should take every option available within reason to take people into custody without killing them or injuring them. But on some occasions criminals will get shot and killed by police.

It is a heavy thing for citizens to pool their resources and equip the government with the power of force. Can any of us resist that power?? If the government puts it's resources , as in police, military , etc. to bear upon you , you will lose. That power is given for the keeping of the peace. Not for the carrying out of revenge while individual citizens hide behind flimsy excuses that they did not actually pull the switch. The power of govenrment is givne to enforce the peace and to enforce the law and the will of the governing power. That is what Romans 13 teaches. How that power is used is another question altogether.

I believe in showing mercy. sometimes froce is a neccesary evil we must employ because of the world we live in. But it is used with restraint and in a measured way with the goal of the common good in mind. Bottomline , this can be accomplished without the death penalty.