Evolution: What The Fossils Say

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Particularly comparative genomics, might try researching it sometime.

Why would I need to research it, and why do you even bring this up?

He also wrote a book called The Descent of Man. And as a matter of fact he does speak to the origin of man in the Preface to On the Origin of Species:

What Darwin wrote or not wrote about the origin of man is not the point.

Your claim was that your interest in ape fossils is motivated by your interest in the "key aspects" of Darwinian logic. The the origin of man wasn't mentioned anywhere in the Origin of Species, however the "key aspects" was. The point is; at least Darwin did not think ape fossils was part of the "key aspects" of his own logic.

What you are calling 'the theory' is the Darwinian a priori assumption of universal common descent by exclusively naturalistic means, going all the way back to and including the Big Bang. Equivocating the two is fallacious at best.

I have no clue what you are onto now. You, must be confusing me with someone else.

I am merely asking you the question why you seamed so obsessed with the fossil record of apes. As answer to this you claimed it is related to the "key aspects ... of Darwinian logic" (which in itself is incorrect as I pointed out above) and that your particular interest in ape fossils exists because of its "abundance" in the literature.

When I asked you to clarify yourself what you mean with "abundant" you drag in comparative genomics, the Big Bang and other nonsense in this. I don't see how these things are even remotely relevant to my question regarding your claim of "abundance".

I repeat my question: in what respect, compared to other fossils, is the scientific writing on ape fossils abundant in the scientific literature?

If your going to defend Darwinism it might be advisable to learn more about it.

Like I said, it seams like you have confused me with someone else. I am not defending anything. I am asking you some simple questions and I don't feel I have got a coherent answer to anything yet, more than you seams to believe that ape fossils are abundant in the literature in some unspecified way and that ape fossils, somehow, play an important role as "key aspect" of the "Darwinian" logic, in yet again some mysterious way which not even Darwin seams to had been aware of.
 
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mark kennedy

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Why would I need to research it, and why do you even bring this up?

Because in spite of all the evidence to the contrary there is always a chance of a substantive discussion.



What Darwin wrote or not wrote about the origin of man is not the point.

Your point was that he didn't, that's a pretty cool point refuted from my perspective.

Your claim was that your interest in ape fossils is motivated by your interest in the "key aspects" of Darwinian logic. The the origin of man wasn't mentioned anywhere in the Origin of Species, however the "key aspects" was. The point is; at least Darwin did not think ape fossils was part of the "key aspects" of his own logic.

Maybe because he didn't have any.

I have no clue what you are onto now. You, must be confusing me with someone else.

No, fallacious arguments are all the same.

I am merely asking you the question why you seamed so obsessed with the fossil record of apes. As answer to this you claimed it is related to the "key aspects ... of Darwinian logic" (which in itself is incorrect as I pointed out above) and that your particular interest in ape fossils exists because of its "abundance" in the literature.

Yes I know because I have actually read some of it, unlike you.

When I asked you to clarify yourself what you mean with "abundant" you drag in comparative genomics, the Big Bang and other nonsense in this. I don't see how these things are even remotely relevant to my question regarding your claim of "abundance".

What you don't know about the evidence isn't my problem, it's an advantage.

I repeat my question: in what respect, compared to other fossils, is the scientific writing on ape fossils abundant in the scientific literature?

Research it and fine out.

Like I said, it seams like you have confused me with someone else. I am not defending anything. I am asking you some simple questions and I don't feel I have got a coherent answer to anything yet, more than you seams to believe that ape fossils are abundant in the literature in some unspecified way and that ape fossils, somehow, play an important role as "key aspect" of the "Darwinian" logic, in yet again some mysterious way which not even Darwin seams to had been aware of.

The operative word being simple, I would say pedantic. Thanks for the fish in a barrel, try to come up with something a little more challenging some time.

Have a nice day :)
Mark
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Which is my whole problem with Darwinism. 'God-didn't-do-it' does not have explanatory power either.
That's true, but it's not a problem with Darwinism. Darwin's theory didn't address what God may or may not have done, it was just a theory that was consistent with the evidence and had great explanatory and predictive power.

Darwin delayed publishing his work because he knew it would not go down well with the scientific establishment of the time, who were mainly traditional Christians, and it took some time before they accepted the idea - after being persuaded by the simplicity of its logic and the copious evidence for it.

Subsequent developments and discoveries in evolution have not found it necessary to invoke the God hypothesis either.

You're unlikely to find the God hypothesis used in science in general because, as traditionally formulated, it is not an adequate scientific hypothesis.
 
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Speedwell

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That's true, but it's not a problem with Darwinism. Darwin's theory didn't address what God may or may not have done, it was just a theory that was consistent with the evidence and had great explanatory and predictive power.

Darwin delayed publishing his work because he knew it would not go down well with the scientific establishment of the time, who were mainly traditional Christians, and it took some time before they accepted the idea - after being persuaded by the simplicity of its logic and the copious evidence for it.

Subsequent developments and discoveries in evolution have not found it necessary to invoke the God hypothesis either.

You're unlikely to find the God hypothesis used in science in general because, as traditionally formulated, it is not an adequate scientific hypothesis.
On the other hand, for some people, saying "The magic Bible God didn't do it in six days six thousand years ago" is the same as saying "God didn't do it."
 
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mark kennedy

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That's true, but it's not a problem with Darwinism. Darwin's theory didn't address what God may or may not have done, it was just a theory that was consistent with the evidence and had great explanatory and predictive power.

Darwin delayed publishing his work because he knew it would not go down well with the scientific establishment of the time, who were mainly traditional Christians, and it took some time before they accepted the idea - after being persuaded by the simplicity of its logic and the copious evidence for it.

Subsequent developments and discoveries in evolution have not found it necessary to invoke the God hypothesis either.

You're unlikely to find the God hypothesis used in science in general because, as traditionally formulated, it is not an adequate scientific hypothesis.
It's not that God is inadequate, the problem is the limits natural science, it's limited to natural phenomenon. Theistic reasoning is a much broader epistemology. We know what God did, 6000 years ago, we have a detailed description of creation week. Darwin is allowed to make one long argument against creation and of course that's all very scientific but God actually creating or even being credited as designer is inadequate. The inverse logic is intuitively obvious, if you can conclude God isn't creator the inverse option is that he is, it's disingenuous to pretend it's not. To this day evolutionists realize that the only alternative to the Darwinian Tree of Life is special creation.

Creation and evolution, between them, exhaust the possible explanations for the origin of living things. Organisms either appeared on the earth fully developed or they did not. If they did not, they must have developed from preexisting species by some process of modification. If they did appear in a fully developed state, they must indeed have been created by some omnipotent intelligence, for no natural process could possibly form inanimate molecules into an elephant or redwood tree in one step (Science On Trial: The Case For Evolution, by Dr. Douglas J. Futuyma)
Do you accept the inverse logic? If ,'God did it', lacks explanatory power then, 'God didn't do it', would have the same limitation. Now you can certainly be persuaded one way or the other, just don't pretend God being Creator has no explanatory power just because you choose to reject it. The first rule of science, according to Isaac Newton is:

Rule 1: We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. (Newton, Principia)
Its called primary first cause, the unmoved mover, God acting in time and space. Darwin knew this, that's why he defines the issue in no uncertain terms in the preface to On the Origin of Species, saying,

'all change in the organic, as well as in the inorganic world, being the result of law, and not of miraculous interposition'.​

That's one possibility, special creation is another. Darwin's book has been called one long argument against creation, which is an apt description.

'that each species has been independently created — is erroneous. I am fully convinced that species are not immutable' (Darwin, On the Origin of Species)
The inverse logic is intuitively obvious, if God did it explains nothing and is inadequate to form a hypothesis, then so does God didn't do it. You can't eat your cake and then expect to have it.

Have a nice day :)
Mark
 
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HitchSlap

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It's not that God is inadequate, the problem is the limits natural science, it's limited to natural phenomenon. Theistic reasoning is a much broader epistemology. We know what God did, 6000 years ago, we have a detailed description of creation week. Darwin is allowed to make one long argument against creation and of course that's all very scientific but God actually creating or even being credited as designer is inadequate. The inverse logic is intuitively obvious, if you can conclude God isn't creator the inverse option is that he is, it's disingenuous to pretend it's not. To this day evolutionists realize that the only alternative to the Darwinian Tree of Life is special creation.

Creation and evolution, between them, exhaust the possible explanations for the origin of living things. Organisms either appeared on the earth fully developed or they did not. If they did not, they must have developed from preexisting species by some process of modification. If they did appear in a fully developed state, they must indeed have been created by some omnipotent intelligence, for no natural process could possibly form inanimate molecules into an elephant or redwood tree in one step (Science On Trial: The Case For Evolution, by Dr. Douglas J. Futuyma)
Do you accept the inverse logic? If ,'God did it', lacks explanatory power then, 'God didn't do it', would have the same limitation. Now you can certainly be persuaded one way or the other, just don't pretend God being Creator has no explanatory power just because you choose to reject it. The first rule of science, according to Isaac Newton is:

Rule 1: We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. (Newton, Principia)
Its called primary first cause, the unmoved mover, God acting in time and space. Darwin knew this, that's why he defines the issue in no uncertain terms in the preface to On the Origin of Species, saying,

'all change in the organic, as well as in the inorganic world, being the result of law, and not of miraculous interposition'.​

That's one possibility, special creation is another. Darwin's book has been called one long argument against creation, which is an apt description.

'that each species has been independently created — is erroneous. I am fully convinced that species are not immutable' (Darwin, On the Origin of Species)
The inverse logic is intuitively obvious, if God did it explains nothing and is inadequate to form a hypothesis, then so does God didn't do it. You can't eat your cake and then expect to have it.

Have a nice day :)
Mark
I don't think Thordidit, either.

;)
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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On the other hand, for some people, saying "The magic Bible God didn't do it in six days six thousand years ago" is the same as saying "God didn't do it."
True - but in any case, no scientific theory says anything like that. They say, "here's the best explanation so far, according to well-defined criteria" .
 
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mark kennedy

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I don't think Thordidit, either.

;)
Charles Darwin's grandfather seems to have thought Artemis did it, she was also known as Diana:

BY firm immutable immortal laws
Impress'd on Nature by the GREAT FIRST CAUSE,
Say, MUSE! how rose from elemental strife
Organic forms, and kindled into life. Darwin, Temple of Nature.​

76.jpg

Have a nice day :)
Mark
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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... The inverse logic is intuitively obvious, if you can conclude God isn't creator the inverse option is that he is, it's disingenuous to pretend it's not.
I can't quite parse the meaning of this, but it sounds like the common logical error people make with atheism - that not having a belief in God means that you believe God doesn't exist.

The fact is that science has a viable explanation of the diversity of life that has no need of God. What you do with that is up to you.

To this day evolutionists realize that the only alternative to the Darwinian Tree of Life is special creation.
I think you'll find that one man's opinion doesn't represent the opinions of every supporter of evolution. 'Special creation' is just another creation myth.

... don't pretend God being Creator has no explanatory power just because you choose to reject it.
I think I already explained why it lacks explanatory power, and is not an adequate scientific hypothesis because it meets none of the criteria of abduction; I reject it for that reason, and I favour evolutionary theory because meets all the criteria of abduction and has great explanatory and predictive power.

I'm curious to know what explanatory power you feel the God hypothesis has; for example, what makes it a better explanation than any arbitrary assertion of agency, such as 'the Flying Spaghetti Monster did it', or 'it's magic' ?

The first rule of science, according to Isaac Newton is:

Rule 1: We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. (Newton, Principia)​
Newton clearly knew that God is not a scientific concept.
Its called primary first cause, the unmoved mover, God acting in time and space. Darwin knew this, that's why he defines the issue in no uncertain terms in the preface to On the Origin of Species, saying,

'all change in the organic, as well as in the inorganic world, being the result of law, and not of miraculous interposition'.​
There's a difference between change of what exists and the origin of what exists. Darwin was careful to only address change. The same distinction applies between evolution and abiogenesis, and is also often misunderstood.

The inverse logic is intuitively obvious, if God did it explains nothing and is inadequate to form a hypothesis, then so does God didn't do it. You can't eat your cake and then expect to have it.
This is an obvious straw man. Evolution doesn't address what God did or didn't do, it just presents an adequate hypothesis of great explanatory power to explain the diversity of life that doesn't require God to be involved. That it isn't an explanation you are comfortable with doesn't change it's adequacy or explanatory power; if you want to believe that 'God-did-it' regardless, you go right ahead.

Many people who recognize that evolution is the best explanation have nevertheless found various ways to shoehorn the God they can't let go of into the situation. Meh.
 
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AV1611VET

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AV you and I already discussed this a few time and why the connection are real.
And inheritance only moves forward one generation at a time.

That means when someone shows me a chart of man coming from a common ancestor, I view it as a game of connect-the-dots.
 
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mark kennedy

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I can't quite parse the meaning of this, but it sounds like the common logical error people make with atheism - that not having a belief in God means that you believe God doesn't exist.

I'm not talking about your own conclusion, it makes no difference if Your an atheist. What I'm telling you is the inverse logic is obvius, if you find exclusively naturalistic a satisfying explanation, I got no problem. Just don't try to impose your presuppositions off as the only explanation. Creation is an alternative explanation whether your naturalistic assumptions let you admit it or not. The only fundamental misunderstanding here is the scientific methods are naturalist that's doesn't mean your conclusion with regards to cause musu alway be naturalistic. Its a flawed logic

The fact is that science has a viable explanation of the diversity of life that has no need of God. What you do with that is up to you.

Exactly, we all draw our own conclusion because there are two possible causes.

I think you'll find that one man's opinion doesn't represent the opinions of every supporter of evolution. 'Special creation' is just another creation myth.

Primordial universal common ancestors and tool making stone age ape men are a myth. See how easy that was, anyone can do it.

I think I already explained why it lacks explanatory power, and is not an adequate scientific hypothesis because it meets none of the criteria of abduction; I reject it for that reason, and I favour evolutionary theory because meets all the criteria of abduction and has great explanatory and predictive power.

I guess you didn't get the memo, natural science has been inductive since the seventeenth century. Before that it was largely deductive, addictive is a new one on me, that's if it's even a word. You think your explaining yourself well enough and like your conclusion your entitled to your own opinion.

What you are calling evolution theory is Darwinian naturalistic assumptions. Ewuivocating evolution with Darwinian philosophy is fallacious at best.

[quoteI'm curious to know what explanatory power you feel the God hypothesis has; for example, what makes it a better explanation than any arbitrary assertion of agency, such as 'the Flying Spaghetti Monster did it', or 'it's magic' ?[/quote]

Can your spaghetti monster part the Red Sea or raise the dead? That's not magic, there is a reason God is called Almighty. Is real maintained it's blood line, language, religion and national identity for two thousand years without a homeland. Pests see you spaghetti monster pull that off. Equivocation and begging the question of proof. That's your argument?


Newton clearly knew that God is not a scientific concept.

Yet he included an intelligent design argument in Principia.
There's a difference between change of what exists and the origin of what exists. Darwin was careful to only address change. The same distinction applies between evolution and abiogenesis, and is also often misunderstood.

Oh I think it's perfectly well ununderstood, it's just not acknowledged. Evolution is something that happens after creation. Oh and by the way it's the probability of change and that goes down as divergence goes up. Its that inverse logic thing you've been struggling with.

This is an obvious straw man. Evolution doesn't address what God did or didn't do, it just presents an adequate hypothesis of great explanatory power to explain the diversity of life that doesn't require God to be involved. That it isn't an explanation you are comfortable with doesn't change it's adequacy or explanatory power; if you want to believe that 'God-did-it' regardless, you go right ahead.

Nothing fallacious about pointing out the inverse logic of your own argument. If God did it lacks explanatory power then so does God didn't do it, because science doesn't draw conclusions about God. You don't get to eat you cake and then have no matter how determined you are push this fallacious logic.

Many people who recognize that evolution is the best explanation have nevertheless found various ways to shoehorn the God they can't let go of into the situation. Meh.

Again evolution starts after life is created, what you are arguing for and from are naturalistic assumption which isn't science, it's presuppositions bias shrouded in fallacious rhetoric.
 
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Speedwell

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Abductive reasoning (also called abduction, abductive inference or retroduction) is a form of logical inference which goes from an observation to a theory which accounts for the observation, ideally seeking to find the simplest and most likely explanation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abductive_reasoning
 
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mark kennedy

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Bugeyedcreepy

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I can't quite parse the meaning of this, but it sounds like the common logical error people make with atheism - that not having a belief in God means that you believe God doesn't exist.

The fact is that science has a viable explanation of the diversity of life that has no need of God. What you do with that is up to you.
I'm not talking about your own conclusion, it makes no difference if Your an atheist. What I'm telling you is the inverse logic is obvius, if you find exclusively naturalistic a satisfying explanation, I got no problem. Just don't try to impose your presuppositions off as the only explanation. Creation is an alternative explanation whether your naturalistic assumptions let you admit it or not. The only fundamental misunderstanding here is the scientific methods are naturalist that's doesn't mean your conclusion with regards to cause musu alway be naturalistic. Its a flawed logic
I think you'll find that one man's opinion doesn't represent the opinions of every supporter of evolution. 'Special creation' is just another creation myth.
Exactly, we all draw our own conclusion because there are two possible causes.
Wait, if you include your creation myth, then we should examine all the others as well... so there's a myriad of possible causes, not just two. There's the Early Egyptian creation myths that Genesis could arguably have drawn on for it's version, Hindu creation myth, Aboriginal creation myth, Greek & Roman creation myths, etc.

On the other hand, if we're only considering scientific explanations, then there is only the one.
I think you'll find that one man's opinion doesn't represent the opinions of every supporter of evolution. 'Special creation' is just another creation myth.
Primordial universal common ancestors and tool making stone age ape men are a myth. See how easy that was, anyone can do it.
Sure, except we have evidence, where your particular creation myth, along with all the other creation myths we've ever thought up, don't.
I think I already explained why it lacks explanatory power, and is not an adequate scientific hypothesis because it meets none of the criteria of abduction; I reject it for that reason, and I favour evolutionary theory because meets all the criteria of abduction and has great explanatory and predictive power.
I guess you didn't get the memo, natural science has been inductive since the seventeenth century. Before that it was largely deductive, addictive is a new one on me, that's if it's even a word. You think your explaining yourself well enough and like your conclusion your entitled to your own opinion.

What you are calling evolution theory is Darwinian naturalistic assumptions. Ewuivocating evolution with Darwinian philosophy is fallacious at best.
except all the scientists working in the field for a living that disagree with you while they're coming up with working solutions...
I'm curious to know what explanatory power you feel the God hypothesis has; for example, what makes it a better explanation than any arbitrary assertion of agency, such as 'the Flying Spaghetti Monster did it', or 'it's magic' ?
Can your spaghetti monster part the Red Sea or raise the dead? That's not magic, there is a reason God is called Almighty. Is real maintained it's blood line, language, religion and national identity for two thousand years without a homeland. Pests see you spaghetti monster pull that off. Equivocation and begging the question of proof. That's your argument?
No evidence yours can either. If you want to quote your bible, then you'll have to allow all the other religion's text speak for their gods too, FSM included. :D
Newton clearly knew that God is not a scientific concept.
Yet he included an intelligent design argument in Principia.
but not as a scientific proposition.
There's a difference between change of what exists and the origin of what exists. Darwin was careful to only address change. The same distinction applies between evolution and abiogenesis, and is also often misunderstood.
Oh I think it's perfectly well ununderstood, it's just not acknowledged. Evolution is something that happens after creation. Oh and by the way it's the probability of change and that goes down as divergence goes up. Its that inverse logic thing you've been struggling with.
I'm not sure it's he who struggles Mark...
This is an obvious straw man. Evolution doesn't address what God did or didn't do, it just presents an adequate hypothesis of great explanatory power to explain the diversity of life that doesn't require God to be involved. That it isn't an explanation you are comfortable with doesn't change it's adequacy or explanatory power; if you want to believe that 'God-did-it' regardless, you go right ahead.
Nothing fallacious about pointing out the inverse logic of your own argument. If God did it lacks explanatory power then so does God didn't do it, because science doesn't draw conclusions about God. You don't get to eat you cake and then have no matter how determined you are push this fallacious logic.
That's Perfectly fallacious. There's an infinite amount of things that science doesn't address directly, and your wish to make this position a backward logic sort of false dichotomy isn't going to cut it.
Many people who recognize that evolution is the best explanation have nevertheless found various ways to shoehorn the God they can't let go of into the situation. Meh.
Again evolution starts after life is created, what you are arguing for and from are naturalistic assumption which isn't science, it's presuppositions bias shrouded in fallacious rhetoric.
....except for all the evidence, of course.
 
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Bugeyedcreepy

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Thanks, I had gotten a little tired of going over the same ground again and again...
:D lol! He still won't get it though, and I think that's by design. In all of my experience with him, he literally just ignores valid points and steamrolls over everyone, hurling insults, abuse and arrogance all the way.

I don't believe he couldn't have understood it all by now. I'm pretty sure he's just a Poe.
 
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mark kennedy

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Wait, if you include your creation myth, then we should examine all the others as well... so there's a myriad of possible causes, not just two. There's the Early Egyptian creation myths that Genesis could arguably have drawn on for it's version, Hindu creation myth, Aboriginal creation myth, Greek & Roman creation myths, etc.

Don't forget primordial single cell universal common ancestor and stone age ape man myths. Darwinians don't have a monopoly on presuppositional bias, anyone can use that kind of satirical, ad hominem taunt.

On the other hand, if we're only considering scientific explanations, then there is only the one.

Science is an inductive methodology, not a transcendent universal common cause. Your conflating and equivocating your naturalistic assumptions with science, Darwinism has never been about evidence, much less proof, it's the fallacious logic and arguments from credulity of people who consider their intellect superior to God. If you have so much evidence why do you use presuppositional, fallacious logic exclusively?

Sure, except we have evidence, where your particular creation myth, along with all the other creation myths we've ever thought up, don't.

Yet theistic reason has access to the exact same evidence and comes to a different philosophy of natural history, it's called epistemology, it's philosophically broader and deeper rationally. But you can continue to swim on the surface, it makes this all too easy that way and kind of fun.

except all the scientists working in the field for a living that disagree with you while they're coming up with working solutions...

That's called an argument from credulity, Francis Bacon, the father of inductive science, speaks elegantly against that kind of fallacious logic:

Idols of the Theater are those which are due to sophistry and false learning. These idols are built up in the field of theology, philosophy, and science, and because they are defended by learned groups are accepted without question by the masses. When false philosophies have been cultivated and have attained a wide sphere of dominion in the world of the intellect they are no longer questioned. False superstructures are raised on false foundations, and in the end systems barren of merit parade their grandeur on the stage of the world.

A careful reading of the Novum Organum will show. Bacon used the theater with its curtain and its properties as a symbol of the world stage. (The Four Idols of Francis Bacon & The New Instrument of Knowledge)
Your standing in an empty theater, preaching to row after row of dusty empty seats. Laughter can be heard from the balcony, the creationists are gone, the Darwinians are gone. It's only you and me and I'm eating popcorn watching you guys perform for one another and throwing milk duds and laughing.

No evidence yours can either. If you want to quote your bible, then you'll have to allow all the other religion's text speak for their gods too, FSM included. :D

Their are no other gods, the god of this world has blinded the eyes of the unbelieving:

No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. (1 Cor. 10:20)​

For all the gods of the nations are idols, but the LORD made the heavens.(Psalm 96:5)​

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Cor. 4:4)​

And you know it:

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. (Rom. 1:21-23)
That's attributing to nature what is rightfully attributed to God. That's why the establishment clause bars creation and intelligent design from being taught in public schools. Everyone knows the Creator and designer is God. Ever notice that philosophical atheism never defines God, that's because everyone already knows what God is like.

but not as a scientific proposition.

You mean your presuppositional logic is the only rational worldview of natural history going all the way back to and including the Big Bang. That's not science, it Darwinism.

I'm not sure it's he who struggles Mark...

That's because you don't examine actual evidence, just argue in circles around it.

That's Perfectly fallacious. There's an infinite amount of things that science doesn't address directly, and your wish to make this position a backward logic sort of false dichotomy isn't going to cut it.

That's because you don't use logic, don't allow the inverse logic or your naturalistic paradigm and fixate on fallacious rhetoric exclusively.

....except for all the evidence, of course.

I don't think Thordidit, either

What you are arguing from comes before evidence, theory or natural laws. You've replaced God as the primary mover with naturalistic presuppositions and you preach an old myth. All the pagan mythologies went back to primordial elementals, earth, air, fire or water.

When in the height heaven was not named,
And the Earth beneath did not yet bear a name,
And the primeval Apsu, who begat them,
And chaos, Tiamut, the mother of them both
Their waters were mingled together,
And no field was formed, no marsh was to be seen;
When of the gods none had been called into being,
And none bore a name, and no destinies were ordained;
Then were created the gods in the midst of heaven,
Lahmu and Lahamu were called into being... (Enuma Elish)
Modern atheists and agnostics think they invented something new, attributing to nature what is rightfully attributed to God is very old. All pagan mythology is based on the same naturalistic presupposition.

In regard to the making of the universe and the creation of all things there have been various opinions, and each person has propounded the theory that suited his own taste. For instance, some say that all things are self- originated and, so to speak, haphazard. The Epicureans are among these; they deny that there is any Mind behind the universe at all. This view is contrary to all the facts of experience, their own existence included. For if all things had come into being in this automatic fashion, instead of being the outcome of Mind, though they existed, they would all be uniform and without distinction. (On the Incarnation De Incarnatione Verbi Dei By: St. Athanasius 296–373 AD)​

Nothing new under the sun, you think your superior to mythographers when in fact, you are an apologist for them. The Darwins, Dawkins, Leakeys, Huxleys, Spencer, Gray and Dennet, mythographers all.

:D lol! He still won't get it though, and I think that's by design. In all of my experience with him, he literally just ignores valid points and steamrolls over everyone, hurling insults, abuse and arrogance all the way.

I don't believe he couldn't have understood it all by now. I'm pretty sure he's just a Poe.

I suspect he's serious...
Make no mistake, this isn't parody, it's real world evangelical conviction. Say what you will of my opinions and philosophy but don't mistake me with the sock puppets of those who only pretend to be creationists, I've fielded those kind of arguments in Origins Theology for years. One wanted to argue the sun was created on day four and the other passed himself of as a geocentrist, they are all too easy to spot and even easier to refute.

Have a nice day :)
Mark
 
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Speedwell

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Don't forget primordial single cell universal common ancestor and stone age ape man myths. Darwinians don't have a monopoly on presuppositional bias, anyone can use that kind of satirical, ad hominem taunt.



Science is an inductive methodology, not a transcendent universal common cause. Your conflating and equivocating your naturalistic assumptions with science, Darwinism has never been about evidence, much less proof, it's fallacious logic and arguments from credulity who consider their intellect superior to God. If you have so much evidence why do you use presuppositional, fallacious logic exclusively?



Yet theistic reason has access to the exact same evidence and comes to a different philosophy of natural history, it's called epistemology, it's philosophically broader and deeper rationally. But you can continue to swim on the surface, it makes this all too easy that way and kind of fun.



That's called an argument from credulity, Francis Bacon, the father of inductive science, speaks elegantly against that kind of fallacious logic:

Idols of the Theater are those which are due to sophistry and false learning. These idols are built up in the field of theology, philosophy, and science, and because they are defended by learned groups are accepted without question by the masses. When false philosophies have been cultivated and have attained a wide sphere of dominion in the world of the intellect they are no longer questioned. False superstructures are raised on false foundations, and in the end systems barren of merit parade their grandeur on the stage of the world.

A careful reading of the Novum Organum will show. Bacon used the theater with its curtain and its properties as a symbol of the world stage. (The Four Idols of Francis Bacon & The New Instrument of Knowledge)
Your standing in an empty theater, preaching to row after row of dusty empty seats. Laughter can be heard from the balcony, the creationists are gone, the Darwinians are gone. It's only you and me and I'm eating popcorn watching you guys perform for one another and throwing milk duds and laughing.



Their are no other gods, the god of this world has blinded the eyes of the unbelieving:

No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. (1 Cor. 10:20)​

For all the gods of the nations are idols, but the LORD made the heavens.(Psalm 96:5)​

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Cor. 4:4)​

And you know it:

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. (Rom. 1:21-23)
That's attributing to nature what is rightfully attributed to God. That's why the establishment clause bars creation and intelligent design from being taught in public schools. Everyone knows the Creator and designer is God. Ever notice that philosophical atheism never defines God, that's because everyone already knows what God is like.




You mean your presuppositional logic is the only rational worldview of natural history going all the way back to and including the Big Bang. That's not science, it Darwinism.




That's because you don't examine actual evidence, just argue in circles around it.




That's because you don't use logic, don't allow the inverse logic or your naturalistic paradigm and fixate of fallacious rhetoric exclusively.




What you are arguing from comes before evidence, theory or natural laws. You've replace God as the primary mover with naturalistic presuppositions and you preach an old myth. All the pagan mythologies went back to primordial elementals, earth, air, fire or water.

When in the height heaven was not named,
And the Earth beneath did not yet bear a name,
And the primeval Apsu, who begat them,
And chaos, Tiamut, the mother of them both
Their waters were mingled together,
And no field was formed, no marsh was to be seen;
When of the gods none had been called into being,
And none bore a name, and no destinies were ordained;
Then were created the gods in the midst of heaven,
Lahmu and Lahamu were called into being... (Enuma Elish)
Modern atheists and agnostics think they invented something new, attributing to nature what is rightfully attributed to God is very old. All pagan mythology is based on the same naturalistic presupposition.

In regard to the making of the universe and the creation of all things there have been various opinions, and each person has propounded the theory that suited his own taste. For instance, some say that all things are self- originated and, so to speak, haphazard. The Epicureans are among these; they deny that there is any Mind behind the universe at all. This view is contrary to all the facts of experience, their own existence included. For if all things had come into being in this automatic fashion, instead of being the outcome of Mind, though they existed, they would all be uniform and without distinction. (On the Incarnation De Incarnatione Verbi Dei By: St. Athanasius 296–373 AD)​

Nothing new under the sun, you think your superior to mythographers when in fact, you are an apologist for them. The Darwins, Dawkins, Leakeys, Huxleys, Spencer, Gray and Dennet, mythographers all.

Have a nice day :)
Mark
Yes, that's all fine, high-sounding rhetoric describing the cosmic struggle between theism and atheism.

But we all see the elephant in the room--or should I say, the Magic Book.
 
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mark kennedy

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Yes, that's all fine, high-sounding rhetoric describing the cosmic struggle between theism and atheism.

But we all see the elephant in the room--or should I say, the Magic Book.
Was the resurrection magic? Or maybe the virgin birth or, new birth for that matter! Is final judgment a myth? What about this promise, is this just religious rhetoric representing nothing tangible?

Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. (Rev. 21:1)​

God is going to do it again only next time it will be perfect. Creation is not just history, it's gospel. Or maybe you think this is some kind of high sounding cosmic struggle?

He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” (Rev. 1:6-8)
May I remind you to deny Christ before men is to have Christ deny you before the Father.

See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. (Colossians 2:8)
They are using you Speedwell, I know it all seems esoteric and empirical but it's not what it seems. Creation isn't just an Old Testament story, it's a New Testament promise.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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