Evolution Experiment: Creationists, Choose their Fate!

[Occams Barber]

Because the 10 year evolution experiment being performed purely out of spite and frustration with debating creationists is a truth that doesn't make for a good story, I guess XD

I didn't mean to minimise your work Sarah. I admire your tenacity in setting out to demonstrate an evolutionary truth. I'm not going anywhere soon so I hope to be following your progress over the next 10 years.
OB

 

[joshua 1 9]

if you can collect clean rainwater

From the north storms or the south?

 

[PsychoSarah]

I didn't mean to minimise your work Sarah. I admire your tenacity in setting out to demonstrate an evolutionary truth. I'm not going anywhere soon so I hope to be following your progress over the next 10 years.
OB

No, I thought it was funny, I wasn't insulted in the slightest. Was just mentioning that the entire experiment itself is comical in terms of its circumstances. The fact that I would dedicate myself to a decade long experiment out of frustration generated through debating people online is insane. It's like deciding to write a book series in which the main characters are dust motes just because someone said you couldn't do it.

This is the type of thing the Psycho in my username refers to. Do not mistake autistic hyperfocus for tenacity, I couldn't decided to just stop thinking about this experiment if I wanted to. I change the water in that jar 5 times a day because I'm completely obsessed with the well-being of these creatures and the future of this experiment. I may have said I'd be doing this for 10 years, but in all honesty, by the time that has passed, it'll have become so routine that my autistic mind won't even be able to comprehend stopping. I'll probably be running this experiment until the day I die or become infirm.

Thank goodness I have the self-awareness to make a joke of the situation.

 

[Occams Barber]

No, I thought it was funny, I wasn't insulted in the slightest. Was just mentioning that the entire experiment itself is comical in terms of its circumstances. The fact that I would dedicate myself to a decade long experiment out of frustration generated through debating people online is insane. It's like deciding to write a book series in which the main characters are dust motes just because someone said you couldn't do it.

This is the type of thing the Psycho in my username refers to. Do not mistake autistic hyperfocus for tenacity, I couldn't decided to just stop thinking about this experiment if I wanted to. I change the water in that jar 5 times a day because I'm completely obsessed with the well-being of these creatures and the future of this experiment. I may have said I'd be doing this for 10 years, but in all honesty, by the time that has passed, it'll have become so routine that my autistic mind won't even be able to comprehend stopping. I'll probably be running this experiment until the day I die or become infirm.

Thank goodness I have the self-awareness to make a joke of the situation.

Thanks for making me feel better.

I have an over developed sense of humour which can sometimes be misunderstood. It's an Australian thing. Here (Australia) poking fun is a term of endearment - ask my children.

I've also found that some Christians on this forum tend to be rather humourless. I've been reported more than once for making a little innocent mock.
OB

 

[PsychoSarah]

The Triops are getting big enough to be transferred out of the jar. After multiple water replacements with water from the aquarium, I have placed one of the Triops into said aquarium. If this one survives 24 hours, it will be safe to transfer the rest.

 

[PsychoSarah]

They have all been successfully transferred to the 10 gallon tank. There are actually 7 large ones, I miscounted before, but was able to avoid double counting when moving them one by one.

"Haha, you can't even count to 7 properly", shush, they move around all the time, and the jar distorts their position so it was hard to keep track of them well enough to avoid double counting without actually removing them.

Their xenomorph-like growth rate has been fascinating to observe; they're now twice the size they were 2 days ago (with the larger ones exceeding a centimeter in length). A reminder that the things grow from tiny specks to 6 cm long within 3 weeks (a little over 2 inches) and can get as large as 10 cm long (nearly 4 inches).

There are a few small ones still left in the jar, so I am keeping it in the tank to see if they'll grow successfully, but they may actually be water fleas (which look a lot like young Triops). If they aren't any bigger by tomorrow, I'll know they aren't Triops and just remove the jar.

Observation 4: The two largest Triops have exhibited territorial behavior, hoarding food in specific locations and chasing away smaller Triops from their food piles. However, they have spread themselves too thin to adequately do it because I put excess food in the tank to discourage cannibalism. They don't seem to harm each other when defending territory, just push "invaders" away and try to snatch food from them. Thus far, I haven't seen a single instance of cannibalism or attempted cannibalism.

Observation 5: Algae wafers are a nightmare for mid-sized Triops. They pollute the water, do not crack to pieces easily, and eventually disintegrate into mush the larger Triops have no interest in. However, the small Triops/water fleas seem to enjoy them after they disintegrate. In contrast, the large Triops are extremely fond of dried bloodworms, and have begun to show an interest in carrots. It's immensely entertaining to watch them carry off individual worms to consume entirely, but some of the worms don't want to sink and they don't go for the ones on the surface. I may have to soak them in water from the tank before giving them to the Triops.

Observation 6: I have read that Triops are extremely sensitive to nitrate and nitrite levels in the water, but thus far, they seem to have no reaction to changes in it at all, even with nitrate levels alarmingly increasing by 20 ppm overnight in the jar before I transferred them to the tank (making for an extreme 40 ppm in that jar, which would make most fish very uncomfortable... or dead). The nitrate levels in the tank are currently 5 ppm, and nitrite isn't measurable (likely too close to 0). Nitrite levels in the jar reached 3 ppm. I must take care not to overfeed before going to sleep, and I am grateful that these creatures are much more forgiving about their conditions than most fish are.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Oh, I spoke too soon with Observation 4. 2 dead due to cannibalism, and I walked in on one of those being attacked. This is not going to work out, they aren't even their entire adult color yet, I can't have color mutants being eaten before I can even see their color.

Going to try 1 more species from this genus, and if that doesn't work, I'm going to have to investigate other potential genera for the experiment. Triops longicaudatus populations usually kept in captivity are hermaphrodites or populations of individuals that can reproduce through unfertilized eggs, so I'll be able to isolate them, let them lay a few eggs, and then release them together and let them fertilize each other or eat each other and not have the experiment compromised. I didn't pick this species initially because its color is rather bland, and can easily be distorted if hemoglobin is present in their blood (a variable trait for them, apparently). I really wish the first species had hatched, since it was known for being docile and not eating each other.

I'm still going to raise Triops granarius to see if I can get eggs, since few people have it and I can sell the eggs to help fund the experiment long term.

 

[AnotherAtheist]

Dogs and wolves are the same species. But over time, speciation will still occur. We have every reason to think that it will and no reason to think it won't.

We've witnessed speciation already, actually.

Dogs and wolves are only the same species because we call them the same species. If animals as different as Pyrenees mountain dogs and Chihuahuas existed naturally in the wild, they'd be called different species. If chihuahuas had developed naturally, they'd be a different species from wolves.

 

[Audacious]

Dogs and wolves are only the same species because we call them the same species. If animals as different as Pyrenees mountain dogs and Chihuahuas existed naturally in the wild, they'd be called different species. If chihuahuas had developed naturally, they'd be a different species from wolves.

Wow, is that wrong. A species is "a group of living organisms consisting of similar individuals capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding". Dogs and wolves can interbreed perfectly well; and as such are the same species regardless of whether we found them or we domesticated them.

 

[AnotherAtheist]

Wow, is that wrong. A species is "a group of living organisms consisting of similar individuals capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding". Dogs and wolves can interbreed perfectly well; and as such are the same species regardless of whether we found them or we domesticated them.

You need to update your understanding of species. There are plenty of species that are capable of interbreeding. Also, you need to look at how biologists consider what 'similar' means in terms of what is similar enough to be a species and what isn't.

You need to get your understanding of what a species is from biology books, not dictionaries. 'Species' is a very complex concept, hence all the argument as to what populations of individuals are the same species, and which aren't. Dictionary entries such as the one you quoted above are gross oversimplifications, and don't work in defining species from a biological point of view.

Wikipedia does a half decent job of discussing how complicated (and arguable) the concept of species is. Species problem - Wikipedia

I stand by my original statement as stated. If animals as different as Pyrenees mountain dogs and chihuahuas existed naturally, we'd call them different species. If chihuahuas existed naturally, they would be a different species from wolves. Note: my example was chosen carefully. Chihuahuas are too small for it to be easy for them to mate with wolves or (even more so) Pyrenees mountain dogs. If you just say 'dogs and wolves' then that's a straw man argument different from mine.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Wow, is that wrong. A species is "a group of living organisms consisting of similar individuals capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding". Dogs and wolves can interbreed perfectly well; and as such are the same species regardless of whether we found them or we domesticated them.

Pretty sure wolves would eat a chihuahua over mating with it.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Video of a Triops digging a hole to bury eggs that I took today before I cleaned the tank. Enjoy the dog's collar jingling and my soft laugh when another Triops gets curious about what the other is digging for. And my grandmother coughing her lungs out. You know what, just play it without sound.

Not only does this species refrain from cannibalism when sufficient food is provided, but their smaller size makes them easier to manage. Triops longicaudatus will work for the experiment!

 

[PsychoSarah]

Observation 7: As was mentioned in online literature, Triops do seem to bury their eggs in the same spot every time, even if eggs already laid have not been removed. I will not be able to confirm this, however, unless there is only one individual in a tank, to ensure that it is the same individual burying eggs in that spot each time. They have a preference to bury eggs at the edge of the tank, with all except two individuals burying their eggs consistently at the edge, and those which don't being close to said edge. I think this reflects how in nature, they bury their eggs towards the shallow edges of their ponds. An instinct that surely exists to ensure that if the eggs are submerged, there must be a body of water large enough to last the time necessary for them to mature and lay eggs of their own.

Observation 8: There is an immense amount of variation in the final size of a Triops before it dies. I attribute this not to genetic differences, but rather to time of birth. Triops born earliest have an advantage over their siblings in obtaining food thanks to having extra time to grow larger. Even though I provide plenty of food for all, the ones that didn't get a head start remain cautious when collecting food, and eat in fits and bursts while the larger individuals calmly graze at their leisure. Separating small individuals from large individuals doesn't seem to help bridge the size gap much; this must result in stunted growth fairly early on. As a result, when selecting for large tails, it will be a ratio of tail length to body length rather than mere size.

Prediction 1: Although I am not intentionally selecting for this trait, given that larger Triops lay more eggs than smaller ones, it seems likely that both my control and experimental groups will become larger as time passes, even if there is minimal genetic influence on their size variation. Any mutations that would result in increased size or faster growth would automatically be favorable to reproduction.

Unscientific commentary: In comparison to Triops granarius, Triops longicaudatus looks very, very stupid moving around the tank. Amusingly so. Triops granarius would use its long tail to swiftly swim across the tank in a matter of seconds, swimming along the ground equally often as going for open water. On observing Triops longicaudatus, I question if they even use their tails when they swim, or if they just doggy paddle with their legs flailing about and hope for the best. It is not uncommon for individuals to accidentally end up on their backs, and struggle to right themselves for minutes on end. If I see one in this state, my empathy kicks in and I feel the need to help the poor creatures right themselves, even though I am well aware that they eventually will manage to do it. I have witnessed individuals seem to get stuck swimming upside down for over half an hour before righting themselves. It's no wonder that this genus generally is only seen in places in which they are the apex predator. They'd make for easy prey.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Measurements of a representative individual of the F1 population. Unfortunately, my garbage camera cannot capture the subtle variation in color between individuals, so I'll be getting a better camera for that. Yes, I know the measuring tape is not perfect, you try to hold a tablet and measuring tape still to take a picture by pressing on the screen. The trailing off bits of the tail are not included in assessing overall tail length or body length due to the fact that they tend to be unequal in length and it is not uncommon for the creatures to end up with portions of those broken off. Tail is measured from the curve of the carapace to the nub between the two trailing bits. Average ratio of tail to body length in the F1 generation was approximately 1:1.2 with only minor variation. Final color and tail length to body length ratio are achieved before sexual maturity. Only one notable color variation exists in the F1 generation: an individual with a small circular patch of comparatively dark pigment on their back. However, as my fiance accidentally nearly crushed one member of the F1 generation to death, and I could not keep track of that individual, this could be the result of injury.

 

[Aman777]

So, any creationists want to have some fun with evolution?

I thoroughly enjoy refuting the incomplete and untrue ToE, which goes beyond descent with modifications within His and Their kinds, into a long journey through Fantasy Land, where Apes morph into Humans, swing down out of the trees, and head over to teach at the University. Since the False ToE knows nothing of our true Human origins, it is soundly refuted as a "Trick or Magic" believed only by those who were brain washed as innocent children in Elementary School. Amen?

 

[PsychoSarah]

I thoroughly enjoy refuting the incomplete and untrue ToE, which goes beyond descent with modifications within His and Their kinds, into a long journey through Fantasy Land, where Apes morph into Humans, swing down out of the trees, and head over to teach at the University. Since the False ToE knows nothing of our true Human origins, it is soundly refuted as a "Trick or Magic" believed only by those who were brain washed as innocent children in Elementary School. Amen?

Get some Triops eggs and do the experiment along with me for a year or two. Also, I didn't hear a word about evolution at school until I was 13, and it was an optional part of a biology course.

 

[Occams Barber]

Measurements of a representative individual of the F1 population. Unfortunately, my garbage camera cannot capture the subtle variation in color between individuals, so I'll be getting a better camera for that. Yes, I know the measuring tape is not perfect, you try to hold a tablet and measuring tape still to take a picture by pressing on the screen. The trailing off bits of the tail are not included in assessing overall tail length or body length due to the fact that they tend to be unequal in length and it is not uncommon for the creatures to end up with portions of those broken off. Tail is measured from the curve of the carapace to the nub between the two trailing bits. Average ratio of tail to body length in the F1 generation was approximately 1:1.2 with only minor variation. Final color and tail length to body length ratio are achieved before sexual maturity. Only one notable color variation exists in the F1 generation: an individual with a small circular patch of comparatively dark pigment on their back. However, as my fiance accidentally nearly crushed one member of the F1 generation to death, and I could not keep track of that individual, this could be the result of injury.

Hi Sarah
A belated Happy New Year to you, your grandmother and fiancé, the dog and (not forgetting) the Triopses.

Congratulations on finally finding a variety of Triops which appears to be ready to cooperate and behave itself. Now I can see them properly (in your photo) they look at little like Morton Bay Bugs - a seafood I particularly like. Breed 'em big enough and you may have created a new eating experience.

I thought of you the other day when I came across this experiment conducted by the Harvard Medical School back in 2016.

The experiment basically shows E. Coli bacteria evolving to cope with increasingly higher doses of antibiotic. Within ten days the bacteria produced mutant varieties capable of coping with an antibiotic dose 1000 times the normal killing dose. The time lapse photography of the bacteria moving across zones of increasingly higher doses of antibiotic is an impressive reminder of the power of evolution in developing bacterial resistance to antibiotics.

Click on the video embedded in the page - it tells the story far better than I can.
OB

 

[PsychoSarah]

Hi Sarah
A belated Happy New Year to you, your grandmother and fiancé, the dog and (not forgetting) the Triopses.

Congratulations on finally finding a variety of Triops which appears to be ready to cooperate and behave itself. Now I can see them properly (in your photo) they look at little like Morton Bay Bugs - a seafood I particularly like. Breed 'em big enough and you may have created a new eating experience.

I thought of you the other day when I came across this experiment conducted by the Harvard Medical School back in 2016.

The experiment basically shows E. Coli bacteria evolving to cope with increasingly higher doses of antibiotic. Within ten days the bacteria produced mutant varieties capable of coping with an antibiotic dose 1000 times the normal killing dose. The time lapse photography of the bacteria moving across zones of increasingly higher doses of antibiotic is an impressive reminder of the power of evolution in developing bacterial resistance to antibiotics.

Click on the video embedded in the page - it tells the story far better than I can.
OB

Ah yes, bacteria make great subjects for evolution experiment, by virtue of their low maintenance and extremely high reproduction rate.

Creationists are very quick to dismiss bacteria based evolution experiments, hence the reason why I am not using them as test subjects. Plus, you need petri dishes and knowledge of sterile technique to perform those experiments, and I aimed to design one people without any such skills or materials could perform. The daily care of the Triops only takes about 30 minutes in total, especially after the first 5 days of life, and they are egg laying machines.

 

[Aman777]

Get some Triops eggs and do the experiment along with me for a year or two.

What it will show is the change in the allele frequency because of descent with modifications within the Triops kind, in a population over time. Just because you change the name to "evolution" doesn't change the fact that creatures have been descending from the common ancestors Jesus made for millions of years, now.

Godless people, in an effort to reject God's Truth in Genesis, dreamed up the wording change from descent with modifications into the evil word evolution a couple of hundred years ago. Johnny come latelys, I call them. Amen?

 

[PsychoSarah]

What it will show is the change in the allele frequency because of descent with modifications within the Triops kind, in a population over time. Just because you change the name to "evolution" doesn't change the fact that creatures have been descending from the common ancestors Jesus made for millions of years, now.

-_- descent with modification is evolution. You disagree with the scale that the process can amount to rather than the process on the whole. There are plenty of people that would deny that even mildly positive traits appear via mutation, and this experiment's results will either confirm or go against that claim. Plus, I am very curious to see how much a population could change after more than 100 generations.

Godless people, in an effort to reject God's Truth in Genesis, dreamed up the wording change from descent with modifications into the evil word evolution a couple of hundred years ago. Johnny come latelys, I call them. Amen?

For a very long time, people did not recognize that populations of organisms did change, even in minor ways, over time. Evolution is a word that literally means "change over time", so once people did recognize that populations don't remain exactly the same forever, it made sense to call the process "evolution of living things". Heck, use of the term "evolution" as a generic term for changes over time dates back to the ancient Greeks. A single word designation makes more sense than calling it "descent with modifications", and even when the longer phrase was more common, the changes conceptualized for populations over time exceeded that which most creationists would be comfortable with.