Evolution and Science

visionary

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I've been meaning to start a thread on evolution and science.While Jews,Christians,and Muslims confirm the existence of God in the Abrahamic religion, are we better off because of discoveries made in scientific fields? ... Where does it say anywhere that scienctific theory supposedly disproves God.

Where does it say that scientist must believe in the evolution religion of science?
 
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Wesley1982

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The idea that science can disprove God is a common misconception circulated in the scientific world. It wouldn't work because of methodological naturalism. Where does it say that science disproves God? Its probably a common misconception b/c there is a difference between the natural world and supernatural convergence. What science observes is only in the natural world. Its called naturalism.
 
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muffler dragon

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As for the "better off" statement of the OP, I thought I'd present this article. It summarizes my POV perfectly.

Richard Feynman on How Scientists Can Believe in God - Blog

Richard Feynman on How Scientists Can Believe in God

Posted by Ross Pomeroy at Thu, 11 Apr 2013 01:38:51
On May 2nd, 1956, acclaimed theoretical physicist Richard Feyman gave a lunchtime talk at the California Institute of Technology. The relation between science and religion was on the docket that day. To organize his thoughts, Feynman wove what may be a familiar story:

A young man, brought up in a religious family, studies a science, and as a result he comes to doubt -- and perhaps later to disbelieve in -- his father's God. Now, this is not an isolated example; it happens time and time again. Although I have no statistics on this, I believe that many scientists -- in fact, I actually believe that more than half of the scientists -- really disbelieve in their father's God; that is, they don't believe in a God in a conventional sense.

Feynman's words prompt a key question: Are all true scientists destined to become atheists? The answer, I believe, is no, or at least that doesn't seem to be the case judging by statistics.

Still, how is it that faith and science can co-exist? According to Feynman, the answer to this question lies in recognizing the limits of science:

I do not believe that science can disprove the existence of God; I think that is impossible. And if it is impossible, is not a belief in science and in a God -- an ordinary God of religion -- a consistent possibility?

Feynman responds to his query:

Yes, it is consistent. Despite the fact that I said that more than half of the scientists don't believe in God, many scientists do believe in both science and God, in a perfectly consistent way. But this consistency, although possible, is not easy to attain...

Here, Feynman is in agreement with other notable scientific minds, including Carl Sagan and Albert Einstein. Where evidence is lacking, concrete proof cannot be attained. Thus -- at this time -- we cannot conclude that God exists, but we also cannot conclude that God does not.

But that still doesn't answer how scientists can believe in both science and God. Ruminating further, Feynman returned to his example of the young scientist, whose skepticism is now flourishing:

What happens, then, is that the young man begins to doubt everything because he cannot have it as absolute truth. So the question changes a little bit from "Is there a God?" to "How sure is it that there is a God?" This very subtle change is a great stroke and represents a parting of the ways between science and religion.

From this parting of the ways, an opening is presented for scientists to reconcile their work with their faith. That opening is uncertainty. Firmly in the realm of science, uncertainty -- essentially acknowledged ignorance -- is the scientist's key to a legitimate belief in God:

If they are consistent with their science, I think that they say something like this to themselves: "I am almost certain there is a God. The doubt is very small." That is quite different from saying, "I know that there is a God." I do not believe that a scientist can ever obtain that view - that really religious understanding, that real knowledge that there is a God - that absolute certainty which religious people have.

Admitting uncertainty not only bridges the divide between science and religion, but also -- I believe -- can do the same when applied to a great many of life's seemingly perpetual disputes.

I think that when we know that we actually do live in uncertainty, then we ought to admit it; it is of great value to realize that we do not know the answers to different questions.

As for scientific discoveries (evolutionary, in particular), I believe that the vast majority of scientific discoveries are beneficial to humanity. When it comes to Evolution and Faith, I've actually only found it to be an issue for YEC. Aside from that, not much.
 
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visionary

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Science is like a floating device, in which men are hopping from one to the next trying to get to the other side. Those that throw them into the deep are the ones without an anchor. Those with the anchor in a solid foundation are not going to float out from under one's feet.
 
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Avodat

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Scientists work by faith - faith in the theories they come up with in their studies, within various disciplines, until those theories are proven, or not.

It is very difficult to see evolution at work, today, as all animate objects are, perhaps unwittingly, a part of it and it happens over vast numbers of years. All we can do is to look back by means of archeological digs, various finds, and melting glaciers etc., for bones buried thousands of years ago and to work out from them what the various piles of bones supported by way of flesh and muscle.

There are, however, enormous gaps in our study of evolution simply because of a relative shortage of remains readily to hand.
 
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pat34lee

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As for the "better off" statement of the OP, I thought I'd present this article. It summarizes my POV perfectly.

Richard Feynman on How Scientists Can Believe in God - Blog

As for scientific discoveries (evolutionary, in particular), I believe that the vast majority of scientific discoveries are beneficial to humanity. When it comes to Evolution and Faith, I've actually only found it to be an issue for YEC. Aside from that, not much.

Evolution should be a problem for any Christian. Either death came through sin, as the bible states, or YHWH made a flawed planet filled with carnage and death from the beginning. If sin is not the cause of death, why would we need atonement for sin? If YHWH created death and suffering, would he be good?
 
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Avodat

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Evolution should be a problem for any Christian. Either death came through sin, as the bible states, or YHWH made a flawed planet filled with carnage and death from the beginning. If sin is not the cause of death, why would we need atonement for sin? If YHWH created death and suffering, would he be good?


John Hick - Evil and the God of Love is well worth reading - I don't know the other details such as publisher etc., but Google the title if you are interested. It is pretty much a standard book nowadays.
 
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muffler dragon

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There are a number of items within your short post. I'll leave it to the discretion of the moderators whether they need to modify/delete any portion of my post.

Evolution should be a problem for any Christian.

"Should" doesn't necessarily equate to "will". It's a matter of personal perspective/belief structure contained therein. As a former believer, I know that there are many sound arguments for theistic evolutionists who are Christian. IMO, the theistic evolutionists substantiation is more sound than the young-earth creationists. But this doesn't mean that it's a problem for either individual (or even those who have no dog in the fight) theologically.

Either death came through sin, as the bible states, or YHWH made a flawed planet filled with carnage and death from the beginning. If sin is not the cause of death, why would we need atonement for sin? If YHWH created death and suffering, would he be good?

This entire statement is actually a non sequitur (much to your chagrin, I'm sure :p ) for a number of reasons which include but are not limited to:

1) Paul's belief could be irrelevant.
2) Not all death is based on sin.
3) Not all carnage is based on sin.
4) According to G-d in Isaiah, He created evil. Thus, your understanding/use of the "goodness" of G-d might be other than what reality presents.
5) What is the real purpose of atonement? Repentance? Etc?

Lots o' topics that spin off of such a short statement.

I will share a tangent of my very own consideration. I would like to draw attention to a specific section of the article I posted:

What happens, then, is that the young man begins to doubt everything because he cannot have it as absolute truth. So the question changes a little bit from "Is there a God?" to "How sure is it that there is a God?" This very subtle change is a great stroke and represents a parting of the ways between science and religion.

From this parting of the ways, an opening is presented for scientists to reconcile their work with their faith. That opening is uncertainty. Firmly in the realm of science, uncertainty -- essentially acknowledged ignorance -- is the scientist's key to a legitimate belief in God:

If they are consistent with their science, I think that they say something like this to themselves: "I am almost certain there is a God. The doubt is very small." That is quite different from saying, "I know that there is a God." I do not believe that a scientist can ever obtain that view - that really religious understanding, that real knowledge that there is a God - that absolute certainty which religious people have.

Admitting uncertainty not only bridges the divide between science and religion, but also -- I believe -- can do the same when applied to a great many of life's seemingly perpetual disputes.

I think that when we know that we actually do live in uncertainty, then we ought to admit it; it is of great value to realize that we do not know the answers to different questions.

When I first read this, I was overjoyed. It verbalized something that I have felt/believed for some time. In essence, I am an agnostic theist. The usage of the word "agnostic" ties in completely with the article piece above, and here's how I'll paint the picture for you:

I believe that G-d is ineffable, which according to Dictionary and Thesaurus - Merriam-Webster Online means incapable of being expressed in words : indescribable. The G-d I believe in incomprehensible to me. IMO, the finite cannot conceive of the Infinite. It's an impossibility. Indeed, this impossibility goes to far as to diminishing my certainty of theism to a uncertainty in agnosticism.

Therefore, to bring it back around to the whole Evolution/Science and Faith/Belief thing... my inability to understand the Infinite leaves me with the understanding that IF G-d deemed that the Universe should operate in a function that is evolutionary in nature, then who am I to argue? On the converse side, I also believe that G-d gave us these brains on top of their stems in order to seek and understand what we can about the universe and all therein. Thus, the conundrum continues until the day I die, but at the turns where it causes people conflict in their belief structures... I say, "Don't bother me".
 
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xDenax

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Evolution will remain a theory because it cannot be demonstrated. It will remain viable as a theory though, but only because of the nature of scholastic politics.


Evolution+and+Gravity+are+Theories+%2528Humor%2529.jpg




Also, evolution can been seen and is demonstrated even today. A few current examples are the virus, e. coli, Italian wall lizards and the silver fox (no, not Anderson Cooper).
 
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pat34lee

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Also, evolution can been seen and is demonstrated even today. A few current examples are the virus, e. coli, Italian wall lizards and the silver fox (no, not Anderson Cooper).

Bill Nye is wrong. I saw his video on youtube about evolution and emailed him concerning several errors on it, but never got a reply, of course.

Adaptation and variation can be seen. That is a far cry from evolution. Viruses were made to be adaptable, or they would be wiped out in short order. None on that list shows evolution, any more than creating a new breed of dog is evolution.
 
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xDenax

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Bill Nye is wrong. I saw his video on youtube about evolution and emailed him concerning several errors on it, but never got a reply, of course.

I'm sure he gets hundreds of emails every week. On what topic is he wrong?

Adaptation and variation can be seen. That is a far cry from evolution. Viruses were made to be adaptable, or they would be wiped out in short order. None on that list shows evolution, any more than creating a new breed of dog is evolution.

Go ahead and give me your professional explanation of evolution. I will be waiting...
 
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pat34lee

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I'm sure he gets hundreds of emails every week. On what topic is he wrong?

I either did not keep a copy or most likely deleted it sometime later. I don't want to go through his video again for specifics.

Go ahead and give me your professional explanation of evolution. I will be waiting...

Let's start with "What is evolution?" There are six different forms.
The list is largely from Kent Hovind.

1. Cosmic evolution: creation of time, energy and matter from the big bang
2. Stellar evolution: stars and planets formed from gas clouds
3. Chemical evolution: all elements evolved from hydrogen inside stars
4. Organic evolution: life begins from inanimate matter
5. Macro-evolution: animals and plants change from one type into another
6. Micro-evolution: variations and adaptation within the “kind”

The only one on the list that is true science (observable, testable, and able to falsify hypothesis about it) is the last one. The rest fall under philosophy, the same as religion.

Most, if not all, recent claims to have proven macroevolution have only shown adaptability and variation within a kind. Two often brought up are nylon-eating bacteria and 'super' bugs that become resistant to antibacterial drugs. Both are present in current populations of bacteria. Forcing a change in diet kills off those unable to accommodate the new food source. After several generations, all the new bacteria are able to process the new source. The same with superbugs. Antibacterials never kill 100% of the population. The body normally handles the rest. Overuse of the drugs kills off the majority of the bacteria, leaving the resistant ones with no competition for food, so they breed more and become the dominant strain.

Side-note: silver is 100% antibacterial. Rather than paying for expensive drugs when you get an infection, get colloidal silver. It may also aid against viruses such as the flu or a cold.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Okaaay. If you're going to argue from Kent Hovind our discussion is over.
As controversial as he was, he did have a lot of things on point - although the other aspects which are inaccurate were unfortunate.
 
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