Evangelize to me

[ToBeLoved]

Um. Is it? God has no foreknowledge then? He never said before the twins Jacob and Esau were born or had done anything good or bad, "Jacob I loved but Esau I hated."

Jesus when he came didn't say, "I saw you under the fig tree before..."

Nor does the scripture say, "Jesus was chosen and crucified before creation."

God has predestined no one to receive mercy? "As many as he appointed to eternal life believed."

There are far to many witnesses for someone to blindly say "predestination is man made doctrine."

Why can't people understand the difference between foreknowledge and predestination. Two very different things.

 

[Butch5]

That passage proves my point about EmSw's precarious doctrinal stance. It does not and was not intended to "prove the point" about predestination (if that's what your are saying.

You posted that passage as evidence that the natural man cannot understand the things of God, which in your post were predestination and election. However, that post doesn't prove that point. The passage doesn't say that that natural man "cannot" accept the things of God, it says that he "does not". These's are big difference. Cannot implies an inability, does not implies will or desire. So, if the natural man does accept things of God then he can understand them.

It is correct. Predestination is an unavoidable doctrine given the eternally omniscient nature of God and His necessary omnipresent providential involvement and control of everything that happens in his created and God sustained creation. This would be true even if the word "predestination" was never mentioned in the Word of God.

Firstly, that's not what predestination is. It's not about God controlling everything. It's a doctrine that pertains to Israel.

Whether the word used by Paul is "cannot" or "does not" - what you say following is a perfect representation of my argument. You have made it for me and quite well. I'm not sure what the problem is.

The problem is that you're misunderstanding the passage. There is nothing in the passage that indicates that natural man doesn't have the ability to accept the things of God. Paul is saying that he chooses not to.

Enough said - natural man "cannot". Good job.

Come again.

What didn't you understand. I thought it was quite clear. Paul said the natural man does not accept the things of God. If I say I do not accept what you say, does that mean I can't understand you or does it mean I reject what you say? Obviously it's the second one, I reject what you say. Paul also said that the things of God are understood through the Spirit. So, if the Spirit is needed to understand the things of God and a man chooses to reject those things he's not going to receive the Spirit. If he doesn't receive the Spirit he's not going to understand those things that require the Spirit to be understood.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You posted that passage as evidence that the natural man cannot understand the things of God, which in your post were predestination and election. However, that post doesn't prove that point. The passage doesn't say that that natural man "cannot" accept the things of God, it says that he "does not". These's are big difference. Cannot implies an inability, does not implies will or desire. So, if the natural man does accept things of God then he can understand them.





Firstly, that's not what predestination is. It's not about God controlling everything. It's a doctrine that pertains to Israel.





The problem is that you're misunderstanding the passage. There is nothing in the passage that indicates that natural man doesn't have the ability to accept the things of God. Paul is saying that he chooses not to.




What didn't you understand. I thought it was quite clear. Paul said the natural man does not accept the things of God. If I say I do not accept what you say, does that mean I can't understand you or does it mean I reject what you say? Obviously it's the second one, I reject what you say. Paul also said that the things of God are understood through the Spirit. So, if the Spirit is needed to understand the things of God and a man chooses to reject those things he's not going to receive the Spirit. If he doesn't receive the Spirit he's not going to understand those things that require the Spirit to be understood.

I agree.

And the only criteria is faith. And faith comes by hearing.

Jesus does the rest, so salvation isn't rocket science if our entire part in the beginning is faith.

 

[Butch5]

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

tick tock says the clock. God gives you time for repentance but Esau he hated because Esau could not bring about a change of mind.

Paul isn't talking about the man Esau changing his mind. Go back a few verses and look at the promises.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (Rom. 9:9-10 KJV)

Paul is referencing a prophecy in Genesis.

23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger. (Gen. 25:23 KJV)

This is what Paul is referring to. Both are the physical seed of Abraham, but only one is considered the Israel of God. That's why Paul said, 'they are not all Israel that are of Israel.' Paul isn't talking about one person being saved and another being rejected. He's talking about the line of people through whom He would fulfill the promises that He made to Abraham.

 

[Butch5]

I agree.

And the only criteria is faith. And faith comes by hearing.

Jesus does the rest, so salvation isn't rocket science if our entire part in the beginning is faith.

Jesus does the rest of what?

 

[I Witness]

Um. God is not concerned with the individual?

"There is more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner that repents than over 99 righteous that need not repent?"

He is more concerned with a nation?

Something people need understand about God.

It's one for all and all for one!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jesus does the rest of what?

Saving a person.

Justification, sealing the New Covenant with the indwelling Holy Spirit, writing His Word on our hearts

 

[Marvin Knox]

Why can't people understand the difference between foreknowledge and predestination. Two very different things.

I wonder that myself.

Foreknowledge is related to omniscience and includes that which God predestines to take place.

Predestination itself is related to activity. It is God knowing what will happen in the future based on what He intends to do in the future regarding His creative and omnipresent providentially controlling activities in that future which He intends to provide.

In the case of the topic at hand - that foreknowledge and that predestination includes knowing and bring to past the choices made by His creatures and the consequences thereof.

In the case of the topic at hand active predestination includes any one and all of the multiplied quadrillions of activities which He intends to involve Himself in over the entire history of creation, daily and in every second of every day to bring His Word to past.

Isaiah 55:10-11 “For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
And do not return there without watering the earth
And making it bear and sprout,
And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it."

Colossians 1:16-17 "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

It really isn't rock science. It's just a matter of believing God concerning how things work even when we don't understand all there is to know about how things work.

 

[EmSw]

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Some of us listen to what God says and understand.

Who did God NOT foreknow?

 

[EmSw]

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

tick tock says the clock. God gives you time for repentance but Esau he hated because Esau could not bring about a change of mind.

You need to read what the OT actually says, and not take another's word for it. Let me give you a hint - read Malachi 1.

You also need to read the OT to see the context of 'I will show mercy on whom I will show mercy'. Here's another hint - read Exodus 33.

No need for repentance for one who searches the Bible for truth.

 

[EmSw]

[Staff edit]

Have you not read the following?

Ezekiel 18:23
Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Ezekiel 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Are you one of those who says God predestines men to hell because it is His good pleasure? Are you one of those who say God wills that some perish and predestines them to hell?

 

[Marvin Knox]

The passage doesn't say that that natural man "cannot" accept the things of God, it says that he "does not"................ So, if the natural man does accept things of God then he can understand them.

That's a big if. You might be right if we were talking about a different world than the one we are.

However, in this world, "natural" men do not accept the things of God.

If there was some parallel world where natural men "do" accept the things of God then natural man would have a chance to understand and be saved.

God is clear on the subject. Natural man will not. What is necessary is a new creation - an "unnatural man" if you will.

Firstly, that's not what predestination is. It's not about God controlling everything. It's a doctrine that pertains to Israel.

So the Ephesians and the Romans were Jews??????

Acts 13:48 - "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Nor are these folks Jews.

The problem is that you're misunderstanding the passage. There is nothing in the passage that indicates that natural man doesn't have the ability to accept the things of God. Paul is saying that he chooses not to.

And because all natural men choose not to - they cannot understand.

Kind of a "catch-22" huh? The only answer to the dilemma is a new creation created by God in grace.

[Staff edit]

What didn't you understand. I thought it was quite clear. Paul said the natural man does not accept the things of God.

He also says that because he does not accept the things of God he cannot understand the things of God.

This is exactly as Jesus taught us. Be careful how you hear. To him who does not have - even what he thinks he has will be taken away.

In other words if you will not you cannot. Since the natural man will not - he cannot.

What is necessary is a new creation.

If I say I do not accept what you say, does that mean I can't understand you or does it mean I reject what you say? Obviously it's the second one, I reject what you say.

Exactly so. It is that you reject what I say.

Now - if I were God and I also said that you cannot because you will not - it would behoove you to believe all that God says.

That's all I'm asking you to do.

Paul also said that the things of God are understood through the Spirit. So, if the Spirit is needed to understand the things of God and a man chooses to reject those things he's not going to receive the Spirit. If he doesn't receive the Spirit he's not going to understand those things that require the Spirit to be understood.

So - you are saying that I must have the Spirit in order to no longer be a "natural"man because the natural man will not receive the things of God.

And you believe that one does not receive the Spirit until after one receives the message of salvation - which he will not receive until he receives the Spirit - which he will not receive until after he receives the message of salvation - which he will not receive until he receives the Spirit....................????????

Perhaps I wronged you there and you do hold to the pre-faith regeneration doctrine taught by many Calvinists. Is that the case?

This is precisely why some form of belief concerning regeneration before faith is an inescapable doctrine of the scriptures. That is why I believe such a doctrine.

Or should I say I "receive" such a doctrine? Of course - that's better. [Staff edit]

But all this is beside the point of the OP. Reformed believers such as myself were asked how we preached the gospel and evangelized.

When it became obvious that these difficult and advanced doctrines played no part in the presentation of the gospel to the world - as practiced by Reformed - some people were disappointed and dragged them into the conversation anyway.

That is because an honest understanding of the gospel preached by Reformed was never the goal of the OP [staff edit].

The goal is to attack the doctrines of predestination, election and the like.

Honest people would have simply started a thread refuting those things or joined into one of a few dozen threads that have been created exactly for the reason of bashing Calvinists.

[Staff edit]

Would you like to talk about the subject of the OP or are you also intent on bashing doctrines which you cannot understand (because you will not receive them )?

 

[ToBeLoved]

I wonder that myself.

Foreknowledge is related to omniscience and includes that which God predestines to take place.

Predestination itself is related to activity. It is God knowing what will happen in the future based on what He intends to do in the future regarding His creative and omnipresent providentially controlling activities in that future which He intends to provide.

In the case of the topic at hand - that foreknowledge and that predestination includes knowing and bring to past the choices made by His creatures and the consequences thereof.

In the case of the topic at hand active predestination includes any one and all of the multiplied quadrillions of activities which He intends to involve Himself in over the entire history of creation, daily and in every second of every day to bring His Word to past.

Isaiah 55:10-11 “For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
And do not return there without watering the earth
And making it bear and sprout,
And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it."

Colossians 1:16-17 "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

It really isn't rock science. It's just a matter of believing God concerning how things even when we don't understand all there is to know about how things work.

Well I for one do not need to understand everything. That is where faith comes in. We know the attributes of God enough to know that He is just and righteous.

You know non-Calvinists believe in the sovereignity of the Lord as much or more than Calvinists. They try to say they are the only ones who think God is sovereign, but that's not true. They like to think it though

 

[EmSw]

And because all natural men choose not to - they cannot understand.

Kind of a "catch-22" huh? The only answer to the dilemma is a new creation created by God in grace.

God tells us how a 'new creation' is brought about. But many, in their natural mind, cannot understand it. Therefore, they reject it, and believe what their evil heart desires.

Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Israel, God's elect, would die if they didn't cast away all their transgressions and make themselves a new heart. And we have people today, who refuse to believe this truth of God's word.

[Staff edit]

 

[I Witness]

Predestination is the belief of the Catholic, Augustine. It was not a doctrine in the early church. It was man-made, and natural men took off with it.

Predestination is a natural, man-made doctrine, and not from the Spirit. You can't accept that, because it would put your natural thinking into all kinds of illusionary spinning.

I don't need correction by natural-man thinking.

Are you one of those who says God predestines men to hell because it is His good pleasure? Are you one of those who say God wills that some perish and predestines them to hell?

I'm the guy that will tell you exactly what predestination means.

Whether you listen or fail to listen. And I don't need multiply words that take away understanding to do it!

Predestined to be transformed into the likeness of his Son is knowing the Father and the Son. And this is eternal life!

[Staff edit]

 

[EmSw]

I'm the guy that will tell you exactly what predestination means.

Whether you listen or fail to listen. And I don't need multiply words that take away understanding to do it!

Predestined to be transformed into the likeness of his Son is knowing the Father and the Son. And this is eternal life!

Do you also believe God predestined some to eternal life and some to the torments of hell? This is the Calvinist version of predestination. I asked you earlier if you were one of those who believed God predestines men to hell. You didn't answer.

I have no problem with predestination to be transformed into the likeness of His Son.

[Staff edit]

 

[I Witness]

I will not be replying further to your questions emsw. For it was you that spoke without knowledge and thought predestination is something man made.

You have the scriptures. You have quoted them. It's time for you to ask God to give you understanding if anything remains unclear to you on the subject.

 

[EmSw]

I will not be replying further to your questions emsw. For it was you that spoke without knowledge and thought predestination is something man made.

You have the scriptures. You have quoted them. It's time for you to ask God to give you understanding if anything remains unclear to you on the subject.

Why didn't you answer my question? Does God predestine some people to the torments of hell?

[Staff edit]

 

[Butch5]

That's a big if. You might be right if we were talking about a different world than the one we are.

However, in this world, "natural" men do not accept the things of God.

If there was some parallel world where natural men "do" accept the things of God then natural man would have a chance to understand and be saved.

God is clear on the subject. Natural man will not. What is necessary is a new creation - an "unnatural man" if you will.

You're going right back to the same error. I said if because the Greek word translated receive is in the middle voice. That means the receiving is done by the natural man. He is doing it to himself. His receiving is of himself. God isn't doing something to him. Thus it is an act of his will.


Who is the natural man that Paul is speaking of? If you know who that is you'll know why he doesn't receive it.

So the Ephesians and the Romans were Jews??????


Acts 13:48 - "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Nor are these folks Jews.

Ephesians was written to the church in Ephesus and Romans was written to the church in Rome. However, in each of these books Paul addresses different groups of people at different times. In Ephesians Paul opens with a Hebrew praise to God verse 3-12. In Romans he opens to the entire church and then in chapter 2 verse 17 he begins to address the Jewish believers.


17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, (Rom. 2:17 KJV)



He continues his address to the Jewish believers until chapter 11 verse 13 where he turns his attention to the Gentiles


13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: (Rom. 11:13 KJV)


In this section of Romans Paul is addressing Jewish believers. All that he says in chapters 8-11 is addressed to Jewish believers.


You have Acts 13:48 out of context.


46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (Acts 13:46-48 KJV)


Paul has just told those Jews that they judged themselves unworthy of eternal life. The reason they didn't get eternal life is because the rejected Paul's message. He says it's their fault they don't have it. So, if the Jews choose whether or not they get eternal life how could it be different for the Gentiles? Is there more than one way to be saved. The way you've interpreted the passage contradicts what Paul said in verse 46.


If you look at the Greek text you'll find that the word believe comes before the ordained.

And because all natural men choose not to - they cannot understand.

Kind of a "catch-22" huh? The only answer to the dilemma is a new creation created by God in grace.

It's not a "catch 22." As I pointed out the receiving is their doing. It's not God's as you're indicating.


12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor. 2:12-14 KJV)


Paul says we have received. He used the active voice. That means that Paul did the receiving it wasn't done to him.


Tell me, what is the natural man according to the Scriptures?

He also says that because he does not accept the things of God he cannot understand the things of God.

This is exactly as Jesus taught us. Be careful how you hear. To him who does not have - even what he thinks he has will be taken away.

In other words if you will not you cannot. Since the natural man will not - he cannot.

What is necessary is a new creation.

Because he does not means it's his fault. It's not that he wasn't the elect it's because he would not.

Exactly so. It is that you reject what I say.

Now - if I were God and I also said that you cannot because you will not - it would behoove you to believe all that God says.

That's all I'm asking you to do.

The point is that it's the person who is deciding whether to accept or reject your word. It was the same with Paul.

So - you are saying that I must have the Spirit in order to no longer be a "natural"man because the natural man will not receive the things of God.

And you believe that one does not receive the Spirit until after one receives the message of salvation - which he will not receive until he receives the Spirit - which he will not receive until after he receives the message of salvation - which he will not receive until he receives the Spirit....................????????

I didn't say anything about the message of salvation. That's not what Paul is talking about. look at the context. Paul is writing to people who are already Christians. He is talking about the deep things of God.

NKJ 1 Corinthians 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony1 of God.

2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human1 wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,

5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,

8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him1."

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy1 Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.

16 For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him1?" But we have the mind of Christ.

(1 Cor. 2:1-3:1 NKJ)

He's addressing Christians, he not preaching salvation to them. He's talking about the hidden wisdom of God and he's speaks to those who are mature. In the next chapter he goes one tell these same people that he could not speak to them as spiritual because they were carnal. They were babes, thus he couldn't explain the deep things of God to them.

Let me ask you, is the natural man carnal?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Let me ask you, is the natural man carnal?

Ask you questions on a thread given to subjects where they are appropriate. Maybe you could start one.