Evangelize to me

[EmSw]

I've read many times that the Reformed do believe in evangelizing to others. I would like the Reformed show me how they evangelize. Show me what you tell the lost.

I will respond with questions I have heard while telling others about salvation. We will see where this goes. Any takers?

 

[ToBeLoved]

I've read many times that the Reformed do believe in evangelizing to others. I would like the Reformed show me how they evangelize. Show me what you tell the lost.

I will respond with questions I have heard while telling others about salvation. We will see where this goes. Any takers?

I like it!

I'm in.

 

[MennoSota]

1 Corinthians 15:3-4
[3]I passed on to you what was most important and what had also been passed on to me. Christ died for our sins, just as the Scriptures said.
[4]He was buried, and he was raised from the dead on the third day, just as the Scriptures said.

 

[EmSw]

1 Corinthians 15:3-4
[3]I passed on to you what was most important and what had also been passed on to me. Christ died for our sins, just as the Scriptures said.
[4]He was buried, and he was raised from the dead on the third day, just as the Scriptures said.

Is that all you say? What about belief, doing good, and predestination?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Is that all you say? What about belief, doing good, and predestination?

Belief and repentance are included in the evangelistic message whether it is preached by a Calvinist or an Arminian [staff edit].

Predestination is a doctrine to be studied and understood once a person has the Holy Spirit within him to guide him into all truth. Until that time doctrines such as predestination and election will be foolishness to them The reason being that the natural man cannot accept the things of God.

[Staff edit]

1 Corinthians 2:13-15 "And this is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment"

[Staff edit]

Nothing new here folks - same old same old.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Belief and repentance are included in the evangelistic message whether it is preached by a Calvinist or an Arminian [staff edit].

Predestination is a doctrine to be studied and understood once a person has the Holy Spirit within him to guide him into all truth. Until that time doctrines such as predestination and election will be foolishness to them The reason being that the natural man cannot accept the things of God.

[Staff edit]

1 Corinthians 2:13-15 "And this is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them,because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment"

[Staff edit]

Nothing new here folks - same old same old.

But a natural man can choose to believe and trust God. Because God's Word says that faith comes by hearing the Word of God/gospel message.

Why would someone have to hear the Word of God by faith if they just get zapped one day.

Calvinism still doesn't completely make sense

 

[EmSw]

Belief and repentance are included in the evangelistic message whether it is preached by a Calvinist or an Arminian

Or a closet Catholic like yourself (Augustinian).

Predestination is a doctrine to be studied and understood once a person has the Holy Spirit within him to guide him into all truth. Until that time doctrines such as predestination and election will be foolishness to them The reason being that the natural man cannot accept the things of God.

Predestination is the belief of the Catholic, Augustine. It was not a doctrine in the early church. It was man-made, and natural men took off with it.

1 Corinthians 2:13-15 "And this is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment"

Predestination is a natural, man-made doctrine, and not from the Spirit. You can't accept that, because it would put your natural thinking into all kinds of illusory spinning.

[Staff edit]

 

[EmSw]

Predestination is a doctrine to be studied and understood once a person has the Holy Spirit within him to guide him into all truth. Until that time doctrines such as predestination and election will be foolishness to them The reason being that the natural man cannot accept the things of God.

Predestination is a private interpretation of Augustine. Free will was taught in the early church without any mention of predestination.

Surely you know of Gottschalk of Orbais. Gottschalk misinterpreted some difficult some passages in the writings of St. Augustine and developed a false doctrine of double complete predestination for eternal salvation and for eternal reprobation.

On 1 October, 848, he appeared at the Council of Mainz, where his doctrine on predestination was condemned as heretical and he was delivered for punishment to his metropolitan, Hincmar Of Reims. At a synod held in Quierzy in the spring of 849, he was obliged to burn his writings, was deposed from his priestly office because he had been ordained by a chorepiscopus without the consent or knowledge of his own bishop, and was whipped in accordance with the rule of St. Benedict, which prescribes such punishment for refractory monks. He was then imprisoned for life in the monastery of Hautvilliers where he died obstinate and mentally deranged, after an imprisonment of about twenty years.

http://www.ecatholic2000.com/cathopedia/vol6/volsix650.shtml

 

[Marvin Knox]

Calvinism still doesn't completely make sense

Is that all you say? What about belief, doing good, and predestination?

The question was asked by EmSw as above.

This entire thread was designed to attack Calvinism and for no other reason.

A Calvinist answered the OP.

1 Corinthians 15:3-4
[3]I passed on to you what was most important and what had also been passed on to me. Christ died for our sins, just as the Scriptures said.
[4]He was buried, and he was raised from the dead on the third day, just as the Scriptures said.

That wasn't enough for someone who's goal is to attack Calvinism. He then asked about predestination to drag it into the equation.

Predestination is not part of the gospel message and therefore is not even mentioned when preaching the gospel to the world - as indicated by the Calvinists response to the OP.

I'm sure those who wish to attack Calvinism on every front imaginable will be sorry to hear that predestination is not part of the Calvinist message to the world - no matter how much one wants to misrepresent Calvinism.

But a natural man can choose to believe and trust God. Because God's Word says that faith comes by hearing the Word of God/gospel message.
Why would someone have to hear the Word of God by faith if they just get zapped one day.

Faith must have an object on which to fix. In this case it is the Word of God (and the gospel message in particular). There can be no faith without the object of faith - whether we are talking about the message which saves or the possibility of healing, the blessing of tithing, or any other area of Christian faith.

The Word must be preached as from God in order that a person can exercise faith in it.

"Zapping" as you say (if that is not considered a flippant and derogatory term for the work of the Holy Spirit in opening the heart of men and women to draw them to the message) does nothing to save.

Regeneration (however you envision something that we can't possibly imagine from the spiritual realm) has nothing to do with saving faith - save that it allows the natural man to believe.

Acts 16:14 "The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message."

Matthew 16:17 "Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven."

Calvinists did not write the scriptures which talk about the natural man's spiritual deadness and the inability to receive the things of God.

They simply believe it and combine it with regenerative scriptures to show what God says about the matter.

At any rate --- the doctrines of predestination, election, and the like have no part in how the gospel is presented.

The OP asked how Reformed people evangelize. There's a lot to answering that question. But one thing we want to put to rest right away is that all of the anti-Calvinist desires to undermine our message will be to no avail.

It was nipped in the bud right off the bat.

The Calvinist's message is exactly the same as that of Paul and probably you as well. Not because Paul believed most of the things that Calvinists believe (which he did). But because Calvinists are good evangelists.

The 19th century has been called the "great century" for world wide evangelism. Across the world the overwhelming majority of fields were opened to evangelism by those who believe exactly like I do.

I assure you that predestination was not part of the message preached to the world when the gospel was presented.

 

[EmSw]

The question was asked by EmSw as above.

This entire thread was designed to attack Calvinism and for no other reason.

A Calvinist answered the OP.

That wasn't enough for someone who's goal is to attack Calvinism. He then asked about predestination to drag it into the equation.

Marvin, predestination is the foundation of the Reformed. Predestination plays more a part of salvation than the Gospel does.

Predestination is not part of the gospel message and therefore is not even mentioned when preaching the gospel to the world - as indicated by the Calvinists response to the OP.

If you mention predestination in your Gospel message, people would reject you hands down. There is a reason you don't mention predestination to people. You want to hide the major doctrine of your beliefs, unless people think you a fool.

I'm sure those who wish to attack Calvinism on every front imaginable will be sorry to hear that predestination is not part of the Calvinist message to the world - no matter how much one wants to misrepresent Calvinism.

Telling others predestination is the major doctrine of Calvinists is not misrepresenting you. The Gospel does not matter in predestination; everyone has already been determined to heaven or to hell. Everything hangs on predestination in Calvinism, everything, and you know it.

[Staff edit]

Faith must have an object on which to fix. In this case it is the Word of God (and the gospel message in particular). There can be no faith without the object of faith - whether we are talking about the message which saves or the possibility of healing, the blessing of tithing, or any other area of Christian faith.

Predestination has no object; it has already been determined in your eyes. What you talk about matters not; predestination has already decided everything. But you have a difficult time accepting your own doctrine.

You are just playing out what has been predestined. You are just piece of wood floating down the river, ending up wherever you have been predestined.

"Zapping" as you say (if that is not considered a flippant and derogatory term for the work of the Holy Spirit in opening the heart of men and women to draw them to the message) does nothing to save.

I said nothing of zapping.

Men are nothing but a piece of wood, not able to think nor act on their own. This is predestination, of which you are ashamed to mention to the unsaved.

At any rate --- the doctrines of predestination, election, and the like have no part in how the gospel is presented.

As I said, you would be laughed out of the room to mention the pillars of Reformed doctrine. To tell the truth of the Reformed would be a nail in its coffin; people left and right would reject such monstrous acts of God.

The OP asked how Reformed people evangelize. There's a lot to answering that question. But one thing we want to put to rest right away is that all of the anti-Calvinist desires to undermine our message will be to no avail.

It was nipped in the bud right off the bat.

The Calvinist's message is exactly the same as that of Paul and probably you as well. Not because Paul believed most of the things that Calvinists believe (which he did). But because Calvinists are good evangelists.

The 19th century has been called the "great century" for world wide evangelism. Across the world the overwhelming majority of fields were opened to evangelism by those who believe exactly like I do.

I assure you that predestination was not part of the message preached to the world when the gospel was presented.

I've already told you, Calvinists must omit the foundation of its doctrine. Predestination, upon which evangelizing rests, would turn people away knowing God predestined some to heaven and some to hell.

This is much like a used-car salesman not mentioning the bad brakes and faulty transmission to make a sale. He hides much of the truth about the car until he makes a sale.

I have to ask, why are you ashamed to mention predestination to the unsaved?
Remember, a man is saved according to predestination. If I were unsaved, and you tried to convert me with the truth of predestination, I would ask you to leave and take your monstrous teaching with you.

 

[Marvin Knox]

....Surely you know of Gottschalk of Orbais. Gottschalk misinterpreted some difficult some passages in the writings of St. Augustine and developed a false doctrine of double complete predestination for eternal salvation and for eternal reprobation...

So you are railing against someone who misinterpreted Augustine?

You really have dropped a cog.
[Staff edit]

I said nothing of zapping.

You've referenced a post that I made to TBL wherein she mentioned "zapping".

You are posting so much and with such an agenda that you can't even follow who posts what and to whom. You really have dropped a cog.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I've read many times that the Reformed do believe in evangelizing to others. I would like the Reformed show me how they evangelize. Show me what you tell the lost. I will respond with questions I have heard while telling others about salvation. We will see where this goes. Any takers?

So - now we are not going to do what the OP asks of us to do?

It is as I suspected.

The point was not to understand how Reformed Christians present the gospel when evangelizing.

The point was simply to bash the doctrines of grace. [Staff edit]

When a Reformed person (or two) tell you how they do it and you find that they preach the gospel just as any true evangelist (including Arminians) would preach it - you say in effect:

"Well you should do it this way. And if you did it the way I told you to - you would be teaching wrong doctrine. Let me correct you on the wrong doctrine that you would include in your evangelizing message if you took my advice and did it the way that I say you should."

Half the posts are yours and you've pretty much laid out what you wanted to say.

That's about where we stand now isn't it?

[Staff edit]

 

[I Witness]

Predestination is a natural, man-made doctrine, and not from the Spirit. You can't accept that, because it would put your natural thinking into all kinds of illusionary spinning.

Um. Is it? God has no foreknowledge then? He never said before the twins Jacob and Esau were born or had done anything good or bad, "Jacob I loved but Esau I hated."

Jesus when he came didn't say, "I saw you under the fig tree before..."

Nor does the scripture say, "Jesus was chosen and crucified before creation."

God has predestined no one to receive mercy? "As many as he appointed to eternal life believed."

There are far to many witnesses for someone to blindly say "predestination is man made doctrine."

 

[EmSw]

Um. Is it? God has no foreknowledge then? He never said before the twins Jacob and Esau were born or had done anything good or bad, "Jacob I loved but Esau I hated."

No sir, God did not say that before they were born.

Jesus when he came didn't say, "I saw you under the fig tree before..."

Nor does the scripture say, "Jesus was chosen and crucified before creation."

God has predestined no one to receive mercy? "As many as he appointed to eternal life believed."

There are far to many witnesses for someone to blindly say "predestination is man made doctrine."

Foreknowledge is not predestination.

 

[EmSw]

So you are railing against someone who interpreted Augustine?

You really have dropped a cog.

Yes, Augustine, the Catholic. Calvinism is the new Catholicism.

[Staff edit]

You've referenced a post that I made to TBL wherein she mentioned "zapping".

You are posting so much and with such an agenda that you can't even follow who posts what and to whom. You really have dropped a cog.

If she mentions zapping, how does that make me the one who mentions it?

 

[EmSw]

So - now we are not going to do what the OP asks of us to do?

It is as I suspected.

If arguing and finding fault with me is your method of evangelizing, then keep it to yourself.

The point was not to understand how Reformed Christians present the gospel when evangelizing.

The point was simply to bash the doctrines of grace.

You said nothing of the path which leads to life, nor how to find it.

When a Reformed person (or two) tell you how they do it and you find that they preach the gospel just as any true evangelist (including Arminians) would preach it - you say in effect:

"Well you should do it this way. And if you did it the way I told you to - you would be teaching wrong doctrine. Let me correct you on the wrong doctrine that you would include in your evangelizing message if you took my advice and did it the way that I say you should."

Again, you said nothing of the path which leads to life, nor how to find it.

Half the posts are yours and you've pretty much laid out what you wanted to say.

That's about where we stand now isn't it?

Again, you said nothing of the path which leads to life, nor how to find it.

 

[Butch5]

Belief and repentance are included in the evangelistic message whether it is preached by a Calvinist or an Arminian [staff edit].

Predestination is a doctrine to be studied and understood once a person has the Holy Spirit within him to guide him into all truth. Until that time doctrines such as predestination and election will be foolishness to them The reason being that the natural man cannot accept the things of God.

[Staff edit]

1 Corinthians 2:13-15 "And this is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them,because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment"

[Staff edit]

Nothing new here folks - same old same old.

That passage doesn't prove your point. Your statement about predestination and election is not correct. Paul didn't say the natural man cannot accept the things of God, he said, he does not. Obviously, if the natural man doesn't accept the things of God he doesn't have the Spirit of God. Since the things of God require the Spirit of God to be understood, the natural man cannot understand them. The reason isn't that he's not able. The reason is that he hasn't accept the necessary means to.

 

[I Witness]

Foreknowledge is not predestination.

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Some of us listen to what God says and understand.

 

[Marvin Knox]

That passage doesn't prove your point.

That passage proves my point about EmSw's precarious doctrinal stance. It does not and was not intended to "prove the point" about predestination (if that's what your are saying.

Your statement about predestination and election is not correct.

It is correct. Predestination is an unavoidable doctrine given the eternally omniscient nature of God and His necessary omnipresent providential involvement and control of everything that happens in his created and God sustained creation. This would be true even if the word "predestination" was never mentioned in the Word of God.

Paul didn't say the natural man cannot accept the things of God, he said, he does not.

Whether the word used by Paul is "cannot" or "does not" - what you say following is a perfect representation of my argument. You have made it for me and quite well. I'm not sure what the problem is.

Obviously, if the natural man doesn't accept the things of God he doesn't have the Spirit of God. Since the things of God require the Spirit of God to be understood, the natural man cannot understand them. The reason isn't that he's not able. The reason is that he hasn't accept the necessary means to.

Enough said - natural man "cannot". Good job.

The reason isn't that he's not able.

the natural man cannot understand them.

Come again.

 

[I Witness]

No sir, God did not say that before they were born.

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

tick tock says the clock. God gives you time for repentance but Esau he hated because Esau could not bring about a change of mind.