Episcopal Church Moves to End Ban on Gay Bishops

[Chazemataz]

If they are preaching another gospel as I already showed in my first post then they are a false church preaching death over the people in their church. To preach that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality is preaching against what the bible teaches on the subject and is preaching another gospel. Check out my first post for scriptures on the subject.

Well, we have religious freedom in this country, thank God. They can believe however they want to believe, just as you. there is nothing wrong with that. I just think it's kind of rude to say any sort of faith is a 'false church' or 'another gospel'. Do you think the Mormons are a false church? They believe some pretty different stuff, but I wouldn't call them that because they are obviously happy and truly believe in what they believe in. Who are we to judge another's happiness?
Tolerance goes quite a long way in today's world.

 

[Washington]

But religion is a choice. If they insist that their discriminatory practices be carried over as policy outside their organization (i.e. politics/law) we should fight it but if they want to discriminate within their organization who cares?

For one thing, such a discriminatory attitude is rarely kept within the confines of the organization. If your moral leaders tell you that X type of people don't deserve inclusion because of their Xness, that Xness takes on negative implications that is commonly attached to those with Xness outside the organization.

 

[craigerNY]

For one thing, such a discriminatory attitude is rarely kept within the confines of the organization. If your moral leaders tell you that X type of people don't deserve inclusion because of their Xness, that Xness takes on negative implications that is commonly attached to those with Xness outside the organization.

I know what you are saying and when it does spill over into policy I am with you. I do not appreciate folks using their religion to tell me what to do in my private life and I expect them to stay out of it. I should also extend the same to them in their private endeavors. When it spills over into the lives of others I will resist it but if it is in the confines of their own organization (such as the OP) that is their business.

 

[AmyGlen]

The Episcopal Church is losing members rapidly and is a dying church. And I say this as an Episcopalian who is tired of the church constantly watering down it's position on sin. The Episcopal church is dying, the members are old and graying. In my church alone we have ten members total and with the exception of my family there is not a person there who is under 60. There's not enough liberals and gays willing to go to chuch to make up for this loss. The more liberal the Episcopal church gets and the more it gives into homosexual pressure, the more members it loses. There doesn't seem to be a large amount of liberals or gays who are interested in going to church to make up for the large amount of people who leave or who are not attracted to joining a church with such a lack of integrity or seriousness about God's Word.

 

[SiderealExalt]

The Episcopal Church is losing members rapidly and is a dying church. And I say this as an Episcopalian who is tired of the church constantly watering down it's position on sin. The Episcopal church is dying, the members are old and graying. In my church alone we have ten members total and with the exception of my family there is not a person there who is under 60. There's not enough liberals and gays willing to go to chuch to make up for this loss. The more liberal the Episcopal church gets and the more it gives into homosexual pressure, the more members it loses. There doesn't seem to be a large amount of liberals or gays who are interested in going to church to make up for the large amount of people who leave or who are not attracted to joining a church with such a lack of integrity or seriousness about God's Word.

My my, one has to appreciate Christian solidarity. Not that I'm inclined to treat this information as reliable.

 

[Fantine]

This is a decision for the Episcopal Church, not those of us who are not Episcopal.
I admire many things about the Episcopal Church--the two that are in our town have a great sense of ministry and a refreshing openmindedness along with reverent, traditional services.

But I do fear for the Episcopal Church, because it is coming closer and closer to splitting. Is it worth it to tear a whole church apart over what is essentially a personnel matter?

WHEATON, Ill. — Conservatives alienated from the Episcopal Church announced on Wednesday that they were founding their own rival denomination, the biggest challenge yet to the authority of the Episcopal Church since it ordained an openly gay bishop five years ago.
The move threatens the fragile unity of the Anglican Communion, the world’s third-largest Christian body, made up of 38 provinces around the world that trace their roots to the Church of England and its spiritual leader, the Archbishop of Canterbury.
The conservatives intend to seek the approval of leaders in the global Anglican Communion for the province they plan to form. If they should receive broad approval, their effort could lead to new defections from the Episcopal Church, the American branch of Anglicanism.

Episcopal Split Over Scripture, Tradition, and Sexuality | The Wire | STLtoday

 

[AmyGlen]

My my, one has to appreciate Christian solidarity. Not that I'm inclined to treat this information as reliable.

If you don't think it's reliable then all you have to do is google 'Episcopal Church, declining membership'. You'll find thousands of articles relating to this trend. The US churches with the highest growth right now-evangelical, nondenominational, and Mormons-are the ones that condemn homosexuality as a sin. In comparison with that the Episcopal Church is declining rapidly. Like I said, there are not enough liberals and gays going to church to make up for the declining membership.

 

[Washington]

For church membership trends take a look HERE.

 

[Maren]

You clearly do not understand. Lets look at the whole scripture that so many people misuse:

Matthew 7:1-5 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.


It's not saying that Judging is wrong, what it is saying is if you judge someone you should not be doing the samething that you are judging the other person for (for that would make you a hypocrite).Just as Ted Haggard condemned Sexual Sin and yet in close doors was committing the very act he was condemning (he refused to look at the sawdust in his own eyes), the church has seen alot of hypocrites.This is what Matthew 7:1-5 is condemning.If we are to judge let us not be hypocrites about it.


1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

1 Corinthians 6:1-6 If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church! I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? But instead, one brother goes to law against another—and this in front of unbelievers!

Titus 2:15 These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

Actually, Matthew is not talking about hypocrisy. Rather, he is saying if you judge that God will judge you using the same standards you use. So, for example, you are saying the Episcopal church is wrong about gays and this makes it a "false church" because they got one thing wrong. So, God using this standard against you would mean if even one of your beliefs about God and sin is wrong, then your faith is thus false and you will be headed to hell.

 

[seashale76]

For church membership trends take a look HERE.

Thanks for the link. Unfortunately, the way one counts members- active vs. inactive- isn't accurately reflected.

 

[MarkSB]

For church membership trends take a look HERE.

The figures you posted say the Episcopal chuch lost 32% of its members since 1960.

 

[SiderealExalt]

If you don't think it's reliable then all you have to do is google 'Episcopal Church, declining membership'. You'll find thousands of articles relating to this trend. The US churches with the highest growth right now-evangelical, nondenominational, and Mormons-are the ones that condemn homosexuality as a sin. In comparison with that the Episcopal Church is declining rapidly. Like I said, there are not enough liberals and gays going to church to make up for the declining membership.

On the face of things, and given the nature of most internet conversations. Not trusting non-cited information is a safe course of action to take. For my own part, I tend to follow more of the studies done on the slowly falling percentages of religious affiliation in this country more closely. Than of specific religious groups.

For that matter, I think groups discriminate against homosexuals are going to go the way of the dinosaur anyway so...

 

[Washington]

The figures you posted say the Episcopal chuch lost 32% of its members since 1960.

More significantly, it's share of the US population has dropped drastically, from 1.91% of the population to only .81%. A drop of 57.6%

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

I'm not getting why a gay bishop would preach the word of God if they're not going to live by the word of God,Unless there not practicing the gay life style.Unless they use a different bible that says it's okay now to be gay or something like that.Don't really care either way about the ruling,Except it seems like their doing this to please the world,Not because of God.If this is the case it's sad and may cause more people to stumble.Not with just the gay thing but with all sin.

 

[MarkSB]

More significantly, it's share of the US population has dropped drastically, from 1.91% of the population to only .81%. A drop of 57.6%

I had thought you were contesting the claim that their numbers where dropping. Sorry if I misunderstood.

All this goes to show that you don't really care about the spiritual well-being of the church. Even if the church let gays be leaders (and by gays I mean practicing homosexuals), how many homosexuals do you think would actually go to church or practice the christian religion? Very few, as abstaining from such sexual immorality is a tenet of the christian religion.

 

[SiderealExalt]

I had thought you were contesting the claim that their numbers where dropping. Sorry if I misunderstood.

All this goes to show that you don't really care about the spiritual well-being of the church. Even if the church let gays be leaders (and by gays I mean practicing homosexuals), how many homosexuals do you think would actually go to church or practice the christian religion? Very few, as abstaining from such sexual immorality is a tenet of the christian religion.

Considering some of the statistics in areas of the United States that are the most religious(Christianity wise)....avoiding sexual immorality seems to be something that they explicitly DON'T do. Hypocrisy at it's finest. It seems to be the Episcopal's wised up started to realize they weren't condemning "sexual immorality." They were just hurting the fellow human beings.

Yay for human rights, yay for their church.

 

[Baggins]

A false hope based on a lie is no hope at all. .

Best summing up of religion I have seen on these boards

 

[MarkSB]

Considering some of the statistics in areas of the United States that are the most religious(Christianity wise)....avoiding sexual immorality seems to be something that they explicitly DON'T do. Hypocrisy at it's finest. It seems to be the Episcopal's wised up started to realize they weren't condemning "sexual immorality." They were just hurting the fellow human beings.

Yay for human rights, yay for their church.

And sadly, that's not news to me. I do not think people should be condeming of gays, and I've thought that parts of the church focus on them too much at times, and it just stirs up more trouble.

But to say we should make homosexually active people leaders and start performing gay marriages, is just politics at its best.

 

[SiderealExalt]

And sadly, that's not news to me. I do not think people should be condeming of gays, and I've thought that parts of the church focus on them too much at times, and it just stirs up more trouble.

But to say we should make homosexually active people leaders and start performing gay marriages, is just politics at its best.

Maybe, maybe not. I'd bet that a long hard look at the history of churches shows that these upheavals are not uncommon as some would wish. I can almost hear the voices of Christians who were probably quoting scripture to justify slavery, and decrying those who defied the bible to condemn it. And so on and so forth throughout history.

I know one simple thing. I cannot, and WILL not shortchange or disparage my fellow Americans who are gay. I will not stereotype them or dismiss their lives out of hand for the sake of any ideology. While I don't have any gay friends now( I did back east), if I should have any in the future. I will admonish and advice them on their flaws, and praise them and uplift them for their virtues. And I would find it as stupid as silly to heap abuses upon them for their sexuality as I would find it stupid and silly if they did that to me for finding short haired women sexy

 

[Washington]

All this goes to show that you don't really care about the spiritual well-being of the church.

My quoting national statistics shows that! WOW!

Even if the church let gays be leaders (and by gays I mean practicing homosexuals), how many homosexuals do you think would actually go to church or practice the christian religion? Very few, as abstaining from such sexual immorality is a tenet of the christian religion.

Not in the opinion of all Christian denominations.