Eph 1:4 exegeted

[tulipbee]

If you can't answer my question, I understand completely. Good luck with your 50/50 chance.

The Lord doesn't publish a listing of the Elect
every Sunday in the newspaper. That He
knows who they are more than suffices.

The Gospel is an offense to those on their way
to hell.

 

[mercy1061]

One of the frequent charges against the
Calvinists here is that we think we're
superior because we are God's chosen
ones (the Elect).

In actuality, it works opposite: We know
the Lord's calling ISN'T based on any
inherent merit -present or foreseen- in us
...including a "decision" we made on our
own.

The Most High chooses His Elect DESPITE
who they are rather than because of who they
are.

"God, who has saved us, and called
us not according to our works, but
according to His own purpose"
(2 Timothy 1:8-9 NASB)

and, from the OT:

"You who have no money come, buy
and eat" (Isaiah 55:1 NASB)

It's ALL Him, and nothing initiated by us:

"I revealed Myself to those who did
not ask for Me; I was found by those
who did not seek for Me" (Isaiah
65:1 NIV)

"Not that we loved God, but that He
loved us" (1 John 4:10 NASB, NIV,
NLT, NKJ, AB, RSV, AAT, ASV)

~Not~ because we chose it, or deserve it:

"God has chosen the foolish things
of the world to shame the wise, and
God has chosen the weak things of
the world to shame the things which
are strong" (1 Corinthians 1:27 NASB)

What is Isaiah the prophet saying? How can you BUY or PURCHASE meat and bottled water without money? It is obvious the gospel truth is preached without charge, yet you still must purchase it without money or price.

 

[EmSw]

The Lord doesn't publish a listing of the Elect
every Sunday in the newspaper. That He
knows who they are more than suffices.

The Gospel is an offense to those on their way
to hell.

But YOU don't know! It's a guessing game for you, hoping you are one of the lucky ones.

 

[tulipbee]

But YOU don't know! It's a guessing game for you, hoping you are one of the lucky ones.

One that is elect will desire to fellowship with God's people.
We know we are elect because we recognize we are sinners,
and we repent and believe in Jesus as Saviour and Lord.
We know we are elect because He disciplines us.
We know we are elect because we desire "Thy will be done"
not "my will be done". The Elect will bear fruit.
The only response God's people have to such loving grace
and mercy is gratitude. A person that does not desire such things tramples
the blood of Christ and should have no reason to "hope
they have been picked".

Calvinists still preach the gospel, they just give all the
glory to God, not to man when a sinner repents.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Lord doesn't publish a listing of the Elect
every Sunday in the newspaper. That He
knows who they are more than suffices.

He doesn't need to. His Word makes clear who the elect in the age of grace are: believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. Eph 1:4 and 19.

 

[FreeGrace2]

One that is elect will desire to fellowship with God's people.
We know we are elect because we recognize we are sinners,
and we repent and believe in Jesus as Saviour and Lord.

According to Eph 1:4, you are elect BECAUSE you have believed.

Keep in mind that you weren't elected to believe.

 

[EmSw]

One that is elect will desire to fellowship with God's people.
We know we are elect because we recognize we are sinners,
and we repent and believe in Jesus as Saviour and Lord.
We know we are elect because He disciplines us.
We know we are elect because we desire "Thy will be done"
not "my will be done". The Elect will bear fruit.
The only response God's people have to such loving grace
and mercy is gratitude. A person that does not desire such things tramples
the blood of Christ and should have no reason to "hope
they have been picked".

Calvinists still preach the gospel, they just give all the
glory to God, not to man when a sinner repents.

So you agree with me, there are things the elect DO, or they aren't elect.

And, man must freely choose to do those things of himself, or he is just a parrot, doing what he sees and hears others do.

 

[tulipbee]

So you agree with me, there are things the elect DO, or they aren't elect.

And, man must freely choose to do those things of himself, or he is just a parrot, doing what he sees and hears others do.

I do agree man makes his decisions from His soul. But
can the will of man act independently from the human heart?
The will of man always acts in accordance with man’s heart or nature,
this is taught in Scripture (Luke 6:45; Jer. 13:23; Mark 7:21).
Notice Mark 7:21 and Jeremiah 17:9:

For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornication's, murders,
Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye,
blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who
can know it?

So, although man is at liberty to choose whatever he desires, since his heart
is evil he will only choose between greater and lesser evil. The unregenerate
cannot repent of His sins

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye
also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. (Jer. 13:23)

Man does evil since birth. (Gen 8:21; Psalm 51:5; 58:3) and as long as
man is alive His thoughts are evil continually (Gen 6:5). He is a slave
to sin (John 8:34 NKJV; servant KJV).

Conclusion:
Man's will is in bondage to his wicked heart. So man cannot decide to
come to Christ by his will, because he cannot will it. Man's, will/soul/heart
cannot, and will not come to Christ because he is spiritually dead in sins.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I do agree man makes his decisions from His soul. But
can the will of man act independently from the human heart?

The answer is yes. Freedom of choice.

The will of man always acts in accordance with man’s heart or nature,
this is taught in Scripture (Luke 6:45; Jer. 13:23; Mark 7:21).
Notice Mark 7:21 and Jeremiah 17:9:

For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornication's, murders,
Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye,
blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who
can know it?

So, although man is at liberty to choose whatever he desires, since his heart
is evil he will only choose between greater and lesser evil.

Just because evil proceeds from a man's heart doesn't mean or demand that only evil does. In fact Jesus refutes the Calvinist view that one must be regenerated in order to believe in John 5:25 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Here, Jesus is making very clear that the spiritually dead, or UNregenerate, will hear His voice. And THEN will live. (be regenerated with eternal life)

The unregenerate cannot repent of His sins

Can Calvinism provide any verse that teaches this?

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. (Jer. 13:23)

Jamieson, Fausset and Brown makes this comment re: this verse: Habit is second nature; as therefore it is morally impossible that the Jews can alter their inveterate habits of sin.

The key to that verse is the phrase "accustomed to do evil", which speaks of habit, not one's nature, as Calvinism supposes.

Man does evil since birth. (Gen 8:21; Psalm 51:5; 58:3) and as long as
man is alive His thoughts are evil continually (Gen 6:5). He is a slave
to sin (John 8:34 NKJV; servant KJV).

Being a slave to sin isn't the same as being unable to make choices contrary to sin.

Conclusion:
Man's will is in bondage to his wicked heart. So man cannot decide to
come to Christ by his will, because he cannot will it. Man's, will/soul/heart
cannot, and will not come to Christ because he is spiritually dead in sins.

This is soundly refuted by Jesus Himself in Jn 5:25. The DEAD will HEAR and THEN live.

If Calvinism were correct, then Jesus would be wrong.

I'll stay with what Jesus teaches.

 

[EmSw]

I do agree man makes his decisions from His soul. But
can the will of man act independently from the human heart?
The will of man always acts in accordance with man’s heart or nature,
this is taught in Scripture (Luke 6:45; Jer. 13:23; Mark 7:21).
Notice Mark 7:21 and Jeremiah 17:9:

For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornication's, murders,
Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye,
blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who
can know it?

So, although man is at liberty to choose whatever he desires, since his heart
is evil he will only choose between greater and lesser evil. The unregenerate
cannot repent of His sins

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye
also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. (Jer. 13:23)

Man does evil since birth. (Gen 8:21; Psalm 51:5; 58:3) and as long as
man is alive His thoughts are evil continually (Gen 6:5). He is a slave
to sin (John 8:34 NKJV; servant KJV).

Conclusion:
Man's will is in bondage to his wicked heart. So man cannot decide to
come to Christ by his will, because he cannot will it. Man's, will/soul/heart
cannot, and will not come to Christ because he is spiritually dead in sins.

I am so glad you mention the condition of man's heart. I agree with Jesus, the heart, inside of man, is wicked.
How does a man cleanse his wicked heart? Does it automatically cleanse itself with belief?

Matthew 23:26
Blind Pharisee, first (you) cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.

2 Corinthians 7:1
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit,
perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

2 Timothy 2
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.
21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

James 4:8
Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?

Ezekiel 20:8
But they rebelled against Me and would not obey Me. They did not all cast away the abominations which were before their eyes,
nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. Then I said, ‘I will pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.’

Man must do his part in cleansing his heart, or else, it remains unclean and wicked.

Why can't a man with a wicked heart come to Jesus, as you say? It is the man with a wicked heart who sorrows over his wickedness, and realizes his condition who goes to the Physician to be healed. If a man doesn't see his wicked and sick condition, he will not go to the Physician. But the Light of the world has come in our hearts to reveal our condition.

2 Corinthians 4:6
For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 4:16
The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light, And upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death Light has dawned.

Luke 2:32
A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles, And the glory of Your people Israel.

John 1:4
In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

John 1
7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that ALL through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light which gives light to EVERY man coming into the world.

John 3:19
19 And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than Light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the Light and does not come to the Light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

What does the Light do for man? It exposes his darkness, his evil deeds. Those who continue to practice evil hates the Light, and do not come to it.

So I ask, how does anyone come to the Light, if he continues to practice evil? How will anyone stop practicing evil, unless he cleanses the evil in his heart?

 

[tulipbee]

I am so glad you mention the condition of man's heart. I agree with Jesus, the heart, inside of man, is wicked.
How does a man cleanse his wicked heart? Does it automatically cleanse itself with belief?

Matthew 23:26
Blind Pharisee, first (you) cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.

2 Corinthians 7:1
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit,
perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

2 Timothy 2
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.
21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

James 4:8
Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?

Ezekiel 20:8
But they rebelled against Me and would not obey Me. They did not all cast away the abominations which were before their eyes,
nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. Then I said, ‘I will pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.’

Man must do his part in cleansing his heart, or else, it remains unclean and wicked.

Why can't a man with a wicked heart come to Jesus, as you say? It is the man with a wicked heart who sorrows over his wickedness, and realizes his condition who goes to the Physician to be healed. If a man doesn't see his wicked and sick condition, he will not go to the Physician. But the Light of the world has come in our hearts to reveal our condition.

2 Corinthians 4:6
For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 4:16
The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light, And upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death Light has dawned.

Luke 2:32
A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles, And the glory of Your people Israel.

John 1:4
In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

John 1
7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that ALL through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light which gives light to EVERY man coming into the world.

John 3:19
19 And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than Light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the Light and does not come to the Light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

What does the Light do for man? It exposes his darkness, his evil deeds. Those who continue to practice evil hates the Light, and do not come to it.

So I ask, how does anyone come to the Light, if he continues to practice evil? How will anyone stop practicing evil, unless he cleanses the evil in his heart?

The Lord would NEVER send a good person
to hell. Problem is, no one is good. Or has led
a truly good life.

God -who searches the HEARTS of men-
doesn't buy into our ostensible human
"goodness". He sees that "we have sinned,
even as our fathers did" (Psalm 106:6 NIV),
and in His sight "no man living is righteous"
(Psalm 143:2 NASB).

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Lord would NEVER send a good person
to hell. Problem is, no one is good.

Totally depends on how one defines "good". There is divine good, and human good. There will be many moral people in hell.

Only those who have received the imputation of Christ's righteousness through faith in Him (Rom 3,4) will go to heaven.

 

[EmSw]

The Lord would NEVER send a good person
to hell. Problem is, no one is good. Or has led
a truly good life.

God -who searches the HEARTS of men-
doesn't buy into our ostensible human
"goodness". He sees that "we have sinned,
even as our fathers did" (Psalm 106:6 NIV),
and in His sight "no man living is righteous"
(Psalm 143:2 NASB).

What about those who cleanse themselves from all filthiness of the spirit and flesh and perfecting holiness?

As far as righteous people, you need to do some searching in the OT. You will find plenty righteous people mentioned. Look up Zacharias and Elizabeth.

 

[tulipbee]

What about those who cleanse themselves from all filthiness of the spirit and flesh and perfecting holiness?

As far as righteous people, you need to do some searching in the OT. You will find plenty righteous people mentioned. Look up Zacharias and Elizabeth.

Only God does the cleaning not man.

 

[EmSw]

Only God does the cleaning not man.

Do you pick and choose what you desire from the Bible?

2 Corinthians 7:1
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, LET US CLEANSE OURSELVES from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit,
perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

 

[tulipbee]

Do you pick and choose what you desire from the Bible?

2 Corinthians 7:1
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, LET US CLEANSE OURSELVES from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit,
perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Your us ain't the bible us

 

[EmSw]

Your us ain't the bible us

Which us is us?

Do you consider yourself part of the us in 2 Corinthians 7:1?

Therefore, having these promises, beloved, LET US CLEANSE OURSELVES from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit,
perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

If so, why are you not cleansing yourself from all filthiness?

 

[ZacharyB]

I will exegete Eph 1:4 from the NASB with parentheses for clarity:
just as He (God) chose (elected) us (believers per 1:19) in Him Scripture ...

These believers who ARE God's elect are ONLY those who are being FAITHFUL (Eph 1:1).
Being FAITHFUL has put them in a continued RIGHTEOUS standing with the God of heaven.
This is relatively easy for NT believers compared to those like Zach and Lizzie (Luke 1)
of the old covenant persuasion.

BTW, the many dire warnings in the NT are there ...
ONLY to wake up (or keep) God's elect on the straight and narrow path.
A secondary reason is to forever display to all the world ...
the difference between them and those who did not make it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

These believers who ARE God's elect are ONLY those who are being FAITHFUL (Eph 1:1).

This is a gross misunderstanding of Scripture. They are described as faithful because they are believers in Christ. And Paul tells these faithful believers to stop acting like the unbelieving Gentiles in 4:17. So your analysis is quite flawed.

All believers are elect. Just replace the "us" in 1:4 with the SAME "us" as found in 1:19. Believers are elect. And being a believer is described as being faithful. iow, faithful to God's Word; believing in Christ.

Being FAITHFUL has put them in a continued RIGHTEOUS standing with the God of heaven.

You couldn't be more wrong. We are declared righteous on the basis of believing in Christ. Rom 3 and 4 makes that clear.

BTW, the many dire warnings in the NT are there …

Absolutely! Those believers who fail to obey will face certain discipline (scourge with a whip-Heb 12:6) and loss of the blessings and rewards that are beyond getting into heaven.

ONLY to wake up (or keep) God's elect on the straight and narrow path.

But not for getting into heaven. That would make getting to heaven a works deal. There is no grace in that. And we are saved by grace. Eph 2:8

 

[ZacharyB]

We are declared righteous on the basis of believing in Christ. Rom 3 and 4 makes that clear.

I'll just waste a little time by asking this simple question ...

What are you (or anyone else) going to do with the 10 NT verses that say:
One must practice/work righteousness to actually be righteous!

Your answer will be asking me to present the verses (AGAIN),
as you always do with issues that stump you.