Eph 1:4 exegeted

[EmSw]

One of the frequent charges against the
Calvinists here is that we think we're
superior because we are God's chosen
ones (the Elect).

In actuality, it works opposite: We know
the Lord's calling ISN'T based on any
inherent merit -present or foreseen- in us
...including a "decision" we made on our
own.

The Most High chooses His Elect DESPITE
who they are rather than because of who they
are.

Then it becomes purely luck to be chosen. It becomes a lottery game with men's souls,
and the lucky ones win. The unlucky ones get a one-way ticket to hell.

One will never know if they won this lottery until they reach death. Even if they think they have
won, God's predestined plan may have foreordained them to hell, despite favoring circumstances
which appear they have won.

We can take Judas for example. It appeared he had won the lottery, I mean, Jesus Himself
called and chose him to be His disciple. He sat three years under the Master's teachings.
Jesus opened his eyes and explained the mysteries of the parables to him. Jesus loved him
and with open arms accepted him to be His follower.

However, favorable circumstances were not indicators Judas was predestined to heaven, even though
he was personally chosen by the Lord. So I don't see how anyone can trust they are
predestined and chosen, or luckily picked in the lottery, even though it appears they have won.

Since man has nothing to do with this lottery choice, he has no assurance at all of winning, although
he does have a 50/50 chance of winning. I think instead of calling these winners 'superior', as you
disagree with above, we should call them 'lucky'. Do you disagree with being lucky in winning
God's favor?

So we see, God's salvation is all a game of chance. And man can't argue with this game of chance,
since he is only putrid clay.

So, roll the dice and see how lucky you get!

 

[FreeGrace2]

Then it becomes purely luck to be chosen. It becomes a lottery game with men's souls,
and the lucky ones win. The unlucky ones get a one-way ticket to hell.

One will never know if they won this lottery until they reach death. Even if they think they have
won, God's predestined plan may have foreordained them to hell, despite favoring circumstances
which appear they have won.

We can take Judas for example. It appeared he had won the lottery, I mean, Jesus Himself
called and chose him to be His disciple. He sat three years under the Master's teachings.
Jesus opened his eyes and explained the mysteries of the parables to him. Jesus loved him
and with open arms accepted him to be His follower.

However, favorable circumstances were not indicators Judas was predestined to heaven, even though
he was personally chosen by the Lord. So I don't see how anyone can trust they are
predestined and chosen, or luckily picked in the lottery, even though it appears they have won.

Since man has nothing to do with this lottery choice, he has no assurance at all of winning, although
he does have a 50/50 chance of winning. I think instead of calling these winners 'superior', as you
disagree with above, we should call them 'lucky'. Do you disagree with being lucky in winning
God's favor?

So we see, God's salvation is all a game of chance. And man can't argue with this game of chance,
since he is only putrid clay.

So, roll the dice and see how lucky you get!

There are 2 sides to this coin. Unfortunately, Calvinists will simply not agree that what they believe is a lottery or lucky system.

But the other side is unluck. Those who will end up in hell would (if Calvinism's election were true) have the excuse they they didn't get to go to heaven because they weren't chosen for heaven.

Unfortunately, Calvinists will simply not agree that this would be the case, even though their doctrine of election would directly lead to this scenario.

All human beings are sinners, born dead in sins.

Those who go to heaven were chosen, apart from anything they did.

Those who don't go to heaven weren't chosen, apart from anything they did.

So those in hell didn't go there for their sins, since even the chosen were just as much sinners.

Bad luck.

 

[tulipbee]

Then it becomes purely luck to be chosen. It becomes a lottery game with men's souls,
and the lucky ones win. The unlucky ones get a one-way ticket to hell.

One will never know if they won this lottery until they reach death. Even if they think they have
won, God's predestined plan may have foreordained them to hell, despite favoring circumstances
which appear they have won.

We can take Judas for example. It appeared he had won the lottery, I mean, Jesus Himself
called and chose him to be His disciple. He sat three years under the Master's teachings.
Jesus opened his eyes and explained the mysteries of the parables to him. Jesus loved him
and with open arms accepted him to be His follower.

However, favorable circumstances were not indicators Judas was predestined to heaven, even though
he was personally chosen by the Lord. So I don't see how anyone can trust they are
predestined and chosen, or luckily picked in the lottery, even though it appears they have won.

Since man has nothing to do with this lottery choice, he has no assurance at all of winning, although
he does have a 50/50 chance of winning. I think instead of calling these winners 'superior', as you
disagree with above, we should call them 'lucky'. Do you disagree with being lucky in winning
God's favor?

So we see, God's salvation is all a game of chance. And man can't argue with this game of chance,
since he is only putrid clay.

So, roll the dice and see how lucky you get!

I had to skip over this post. God doesn't gamble nor he clowns around. I must not be in the serious section.

 

[EmSw]

I had to skip over this post. God doesn't gamble nor he clowns around. I must not be in the serious section.

Of course, you are going to skip over it. It exposes your belief to what it really is. You can bury your head in the sand if you want, but you cannot escape the reality of chance.

I really don't believe any Calvinist will face this truth, for they have no argument against being picked in a lottery.

 

[EmSw]

There are 2 sides to this coin. Unfortunately, Calvinists will simply not agree that what they believe is a lottery or lucky system.

But the other side is unluck. Those who will end up in hell would (if Calvinism's election were true) have the excuse they they didn't get to go to heaven because they weren't chosen for heaven.

Unfortunately, Calvinists will simply not agree that this would be the case, even though their doctrine of election would directly lead to this scenario.

All human beings are sinners, born dead in sins.

Those who go to heaven were chosen, apart from anything they did.

Those who don't go to heaven weren't chosen, apart from anything they did.

So those in hell didn't go there for their sins, since even the chosen were just as much sinners.

Bad luck.

That's true FG2. No Calvinist wants to face this truth, but it's the truth nonetheless.

 

[EmSw]

I looked up the definition of lottery on worknik.com Here is what I found -

• n. A contest in which tokens are distributed or sold, the winning token or tokens being secretly predetermined or ultimately selected in a random drawing.
• n. A selection made by lot from a number of applicants or competitors.
• n. An activity or event regarded as having an outcome depending on fate.

Predestination is a drawing (choosing) in which the winning tokens (the Elect) are secretly predetermined, or ultimately selected at random.

I found this definition at dictionary.com

3. any happening or process that is or appears to be determined by chance:

And this at oxforddictionaries.com

A situation whose success or outcome is governed by chance.

And this at macmillandictionary.com

A situation where everything depends on luck or chance.

And finally, this from yourdictionary.com

1. A selection made by lot from a number of applicants or competitors.
2. An activity or event regarded as having an outcome depending on fate.

Then I went to see what 'chance' means, since it has so much to do with the lottery.

Merriam-Webster says this about 'chance' -

the way that events happen when they are not planned or controlled by people.
something that happens unpredictably without discernible human intention or observable cause.
the assumed impersonal purposeless determiner of unaccountable happenings.

I would like to see a defense by Calvinists.

 

[tulipbee]

Of course, you are going to skip over it. It exposes your belief to what it really is. You can bury your head in the sand if you want, but you cannot escape the reality of chance.

I really don't believe any Calvinist will face this truth, for they have no argument against being picked in a lottery.

The ~real~ question is: Who will believe ?

Scripture tells that NONE even seek God
( Romans 3:11 ). Therefore, no one on their
own is just going to believe.

ONLY those "appointed to eternal life believed."
( Acts 13:48 NASB, NIV, NKJ )

So... anyone who believes shall be saved, but
only the Elect come to belief.

 

[EmSw]

The ~real~ question is: Who will believe ?

According to Calvinism, believing has nothing to do with election or predestination, and you know it. You believe people are elected and predestined long before they are born.

The real question is: why don't you address the chance or luck of being elected.

Scripture tells that NONE even seek God
( Romans 3:11 ). Therefore, no one on their
own is just going to believe.

Again, you haven't addressed predestination and election as being luck.

ONLY those "appointed to eternal life believed."
( Acts 13:48 NASB, NIV, NKJ )

Being appointed is a situation where chance or luck is involved. Maybe you can tell us why you were appointed. Why did God appoint you?

So... anyone who believes shall be saved, but
only the Elect come to belief.

As I have been saying, election is a situation which is not controlled, nor planned by people, thus it becomes chance or luck. Why did God look upon you and choose you? Why were you chosen over the reprobate? How do you know God chose you?

 

[tulipbee]

According to Calvinism, believing has nothing to do with election or predestination, and you know it. You believe people are elected and predestined long before they are born.

The real question is: why don't you address the chance or luck of being elected.



Again, you haven't addressed predestination and election as being luck.



Being appointed is a situation where chance or luck is involved. Maybe you can tell us why you were appointed. Why did God appoint you?



As I have been saying, election is a situation which is not controlled, nor planned by people, thus it becomes chance or luck. Why did God look upon you and choose you? Why were you chosen over the reprobate? How do you know God chose you?

The most common reference to
being saved in Scripture ISN'T "accepting
Christ" but -instead- being "called" or "chosen".

Salvation NEVER was contingent upon behavior.
There is ~none~ righteous ( Romans 3:10, cf
Psalm 53:3, Romans 3:23, Proverbs 20:9, et. al. ).


If salvation were contingent upon behavior,
NOBODY would be saved.

 

[EmSw]

The most common reference to
being saved in Scripture ISN'T "accepting
Christ" but -instead- being "called" or "chosen".

Salvation NEVER was contingent upon behavior.
There is ~none~ righteous ( Romans 3:10, cf
Psalm 53:3, Romans 3:23, Proverbs 20:9, et. al. ).

If salvation were contingent upon behavior,
NOBODY would be saved.

When are you going to address election and predestination as being luck?

You keep going off on these side tangents.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The ~real~ question is: Who will believe ?

Scripture tells that NONE even seek God
( Romans 3:11 ). Therefore, no one on their
own is just going to believe.

Yet there are many verses that indicate that men DO seek Him. And we have examples, like Cornelius the Centurion. And there is NOTHING in that narrative about God acting on him so he would respond. In fact, we know that he worshiped God and God responded to his prayers.

ONLY those "appointed to eternal life believed."
( Acts 13:48 NASB, NIV, NKJ )

We know the Greek word 'tasso' means to line up, or arrange in order. And because of the tense, the voice can be either middle or passive. So we have to determine which voice by the context. And from v.42 it should be rather clear that the Gentiles lined up to hear Paul preach about eternal life. So the verse does NOT say anything about God appointing or ordaining anyone for anything.

So... anyone who believes shall be saved, but
only the Elect come to belief.

i've already shown from Eph 1:4 that it's believers who God has chosen, and what He has chosen them FOR.

So Calvinism has the order backwards. It's believers who are chosen. No one is chosen to believe, which is the Calvinist spin.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The most common reference to
being saved in Scripture ISN'T "accepting
Christ" but -instead- being "called" or "chosen".

I've examined EVERY verse containing either the noun (ekloge), verb (eklegomai) and adjective (eklektos). And NONE of those verses even mentioned salvation.

Actually, the most common reference to being saved in Scripture is "who have believed". One can look it up for themselves.

However, since you made the claim, please quote just one verse where either the noun, verb or adjective was used in reference to "being saved".

Salvation NEVER was contingent upon behavior.
There is ~none~ righteous ( Romans 3:10, cf
Psalm 53:3, Romans 3:23, Proverbs 20:9, et. al. ).

I certainly don't argue against the fact that salvation is NEVER contingent upon behavior. It's always based on grace through faith. Believing isn't a behavior.

If salvation were contingent upon behavior,
NOBODY would be saved.

Yep, and irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[tulipbee]

When are you going to address election and predestination as being luck?

You keep going off on these side tangents.

Paul gives plenty of instruction on how to handle
emotional monkey minds who claim to be believers, yet continue
in immorality. Some other thoughts-
There is only unity in truth, notice the "Brethren"(in Ps133:1).
1. separate from those who are not sound in doctrine IITim 3:5
2. Don't assist in the cause of the ungodly II Chron. 19:2
3.Do not give honor to one who denies the faith. Gal. 1:6-9
4. Examine a persons theological position before cooperating
in spiritual efforts I John 4:1
5.We are commanded not to join forces with unbelievers in
the Lord's work. II Cor. 6:14
6.We are not to emphasize unity at the expense of doctrinal purity
Jude vs.3
7. We are not to encourage of cooperate with persons of unsound
doctrine II John vs.10-11

 

[EmSw]

Paul gives plenty of instruction on how to handle
emotional monkey minds who claim to be believers, yet continue
in immorality. Some other thoughts-
There is only unity in truth, notice the "Brethren"(in Ps133:1).
1. separate from those who are not sound in doctrine IITim 3:5
2. Don't assist in the cause of the ungodly II Chron. 19:2
3.Do not give honor to one who denies the faith. Gal. 1:6-9
4. Examine a persons theological position before cooperating
in spiritual efforts I John 4:1
5.We are commanded not to join forces with unbelievers in
the Lord's work. II Cor. 6:14
6.We are not to emphasize unity at the expense of doctrinal purity
Jude vs.3
7. We are not to encourage of cooperate with persons of unsound
doctrine II John vs.10-11

So, you agree with me, that election and predestination are results of luck.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So, you agree with me, that election and predestination are results of luck.

His response to your question suggests that he'd rather go "off road" than answer.

 

[tulipbee]

So, you agree with me, that election and predestination are results of luck.

Predestinated salvation ( Particular Election )
is the plain teaching of Scripture.

"Many are called, but few are chosen."
( Matthew 22:14 KJV )

"As many as had been appointed to
eternal life believed." ( Acts 13:14
NASB )

"He chose us in Him before the
foundation of the world." ( Ephesians
1:4 NASB )

"I will be gracious to whom I will be
gracious, and will show compassion
on whom I will show compassion."
( Exodus 33:19 NASB, cf Romans
9:5 )

"...according to God's gracious choice."
( Romans 11:5 NASB )

"To you it has been granted to know
the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven,
but to them it has not been granted."
( Matthew 13:11 NASB )

"Those who were chosen obtained it,
and the rest were hardened." ( Romans
11:7 NASB )

"You did not choose Me, but I chose
you, and appointed you" ( John 15:16
NASB )

"I do not speak of all of you. I know the
ones I have chosen" ( John 13:18 NASB )

Particular Election is one of the best documented
doctrines in Scripture. Even the Lord's making
the Hebrews His "chosen people" was Particular
Election.

 

[EmSw]

Predestinated salvation ( Particular Election )
is the plain teaching of Scripture.

"Many are called, but few are chosen."
( Matthew 22:14 KJV )

"As many as had been appointed to
eternal life believed." ( Acts 13:14
NASB )

"He chose us in Him before the
foundation of the world." ( Ephesians
1:4 NASB )

"I will be gracious to whom I will be
gracious, and will show compassion
on whom I will show compassion."
( Exodus 33:19 NASB, cf Romans
9:5 )

"...according to God's gracious choice."
( Romans 11:5 NASB )

"To you it has been granted to know
the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven,
but to them it has not been granted."
( Matthew 13:11 NASB )

"Those who were chosen obtained it,
and the rest were hardened." ( Romans
11:7 NASB )

"You did not choose Me, but I chose
you, and appointed you" ( John 15:16
NASB )

"I do not speak of all of you. I know the
ones I have chosen" ( John 13:18 NASB )

Particular Election is one of the best documented
doctrines in Scripture. Even the Lord's making
the Hebrews His "chosen people" was Particular
Election.

You just don't get it; election is all luck. It's all random and you have no idea if you are included or not according to Reformed beliefs. If one has nothing to do with his salvation, then there is nothing one can do assure himself of salvation' it's all a lucky call by God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Predestinated salvation ( Particular Election )
is the plain teaching of Scripture.

"Many are called, but few are chosen."
( Matthew 22:14 KJV )

"As many as had been appointed to
eternal life believed." ( Acts 13:14
NASB )

"He chose us in Him before the
foundation of the world." ( Ephesians
1:4 NASB )

"I will be gracious to whom I will be
gracious, and will show compassion
on whom I will show compassion."
( Exodus 33:19 NASB, cf Romans
9:5 )

"...according to God's gracious choice."
( Romans 11:5 NASB )

"To you it has been granted to know
the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven,
but to them it has not been granted."
( Matthew 13:11 NASB )

"Those who were chosen obtained it,
and the rest were hardened." ( Romans
11:7 NASB )

"You did not choose Me, but I chose
you, and appointed you" ( John 15:16
NASB )

"I do not speak of all of you. I know the
ones I have chosen" ( John 13:18 NASB )

Particular Election is one of the best documented
doctrines in Scripture.

We all know that it is. God chose us (believers) to be holy and blameless, per Eph 1:4 with 1:19.

Every election of God is particular. There is no such thing as a general election.

Even the Lord's making
the Hebrews His "chosen people" was Particular
Election.

Yes. Each of the 6 categories of election are quite particular.

1. Election of Christ: an individual election
1 Pet 2:6 Isa 28:16 Isa 42:1 Luke 9:35 Luke 23:35

2. Election of Angels: a group or corporate election
1 Tim 5:21

3. Election of Israel: a group or corporate election
Amos 3:2 Deut 7:6 Acts 13:17

4. Election of believers: a group or corporate election
Eph 1:4a [note: this verse doesn’t say that God chose who would be believers, but that He chose believers…to be holy and blameless]
1 Peter 2:9

5. The Election of the 12 Disciples: a group or corporate election John 15:16

6. The Election of Paul: an individual election Acts 9:15

Please note which category were chosen for salvation. I say none were.

 

[tulipbee]

You just don't get it; election is all luck. It's all random and you have no idea if you are included or not according to Reformed beliefs. If one has nothing to do with his salvation, then there is nothing one can do assure himself of salvation' it's all a lucky call by God.

Funny how God neglected to mention you doctrine in His book !

 

[EmSw]

Funny how God neglected to mention you doctrine in His book !

If you can't answer my question, I understand completely. Good luck with your 50/50 chance.