Election before time .... YES!

[nobdysfool]

cyg says

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You are the one that has no fruit of the spirit if you promote falsehood friend.

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Anyone dying believing in arminism and rejecting gospel truthes of uncondtional election before time and Gods special atonement for Only His chosen ones, will spend eternity in Hell...

Good thing you're not God, because you offer less Grace than He does.

Beloved57, you are in need of rooting out the bitterness which pervades your soul. You think to sit in judgment over those for whom Christ died, and who name His Name. It is for Him, and Him alone, to root out the tares from the wheat. It is not your job, and you show that you are particularly unsuited to the task.

You cannot show one scripture which verifies your claim that one must believe in correct doctrine in order to be saved. Not one!

 

[Van]

Christ was chosen (elected) before time. He was chosen to be the Christ, the Redeemer, the Savior of the Lost before anyone was created. But individuals were not chosen to salvation before time, as demonstrated by 1 Peter 2:9-10. We are chosen after we have lived without mercy. If we had received mercy by being chosen for salvation before creation, we could not have lived without mercy. Who can bring a charge against God's elect?

Therefore, since individual election before time is untenable, what does the phrase "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world mean?" It means when we are chosen during our lives and spiritually placed "In Him" we then share as one who has been redeemed, in the election of the Redeemer before the foundation of the world.

 

[beloved57]

nbf says

Good thing you're not God, because you offer less Grace than He does.

Another falsehood, God nowhere in scripture offers grace ! Grace is given to the elect always and it is effectual..

Beloved57, you are in need of rooting out the bitterness which pervades your soul. You think to sit in judgment over those for whom Christ died, and who name His Name. It is for Him, and Him alone, to root out the tares from the wheat. It is not your job, and you show that you are particularly unsuited to the task.

I dont know who is saved until they evidence it by belief of the truth. A muslim may be a elect while practising muslim religon, but until God gives him repentance to the acknowledging of the truth, there is no evidence of his being my brother in christ and so I cannot fellowship with him..

You cannot show one scripture which verifies your claim that one must believe in correct doctrine in order to be saved. Not one!

Believing correct doctrine reveals one salvation !

rom 6

17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered[ by the gospel] you.

2 jn

9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.[ is not saved] He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

 

[cygnusx1]

it seems beloved hasn't changed since he stormed off out of here 6 months or more ago , he thinks only those who hold his brand of theology saved , are there scriptures that suport this view ?

of course not !

 

[beloved57]

van says

Christ was chosen (elected) before time.

That is correct, but Christ was elected as the head of his body [ the church] the individual members of his body make up the church for which he was the head...

This is exemplified in the 139 th psalm


14I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

So if you concede that christ was elected before time, you admit also, though ignorantly, that his body was elected in the same manner...

 

[nobdysfool]

it seems beloved hasn't changed since he stormed off out of here 6 months or more ago , he thinks only those who hold his brand of theology saved , are there scriptures that suport this view ?

of course not !

Well, he can just storm and stomp out of here again, because I will not accept his brand of Ultra-Hyper-Calvinism. It is wrong, it is not true Calvinism.

 

[Van]

The idea that we must have a perfect knowledge of the gospel of Christ in order to be saved is false doctrine. For example, if you believe we should be fruit inspectors, and just whether others are saved by judging their imperfections, then you deny that a person can engage in ineffective ministry, teaching errant doctrine, and reach heaven as one escaping from a fire.
God exists. God sent His Son to take away the sin of the world. Jesus is the Son of God and therefore is God the Son, the second person of the trinity. Jesus is the Son of Man, the Messiah, the Christ, the Anointed One of God, the Chosen One, and He demonstrated this by His miracles performed by the power of the Holy Spirit, the third person of the trinity. He was born of a virgin, He live a sinless life, He died on the Cross becoming the propitiation not only for us but for the whole world. Whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. When you hear this gospel, God sets before you the chose of life, if you believe in Him, or death, if you reject Him to the end of your life. God has not foreordained who can believe, for God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth.

When Jesus separates the sheep from the goats, the test is not whether we are pre-trib or a conditionalist, or a Catholic, the test is do we love Jesus with all our heart and follow Him, by showing our love for Christ in our love for our brothers and sisters in Christ. He who has done unto the least of them, has done unto Me.

God bless

 

[Van]

Hi Beloved, Psalm 139:14 supports my position not yours since the body as individuals could not have been elected before time, 1 Peter 2:9-10.

When David says God saw his unformed substance, this refers to the conceptus of David, in which God formed David's human spirit. Unformed does not mean non-existent, but rather that David had not taken shape. And certainly God had made specific plans for David's life, but not exhaustive plans, such as becoming a murder with blood on his hands. Those God chose from the womb to be His messengers, He also influenced their lives such that His plan was brought about. But that does not suggest that God exercises the same level of influence over everyones life. He chooses persons from the womb, but He also chooses others after they have lived without mercy, but who are rich in faith, who love God.

 

[cygnusx1]

Well, he can just storm and stomp out of here again, because I will not accept his brand of Ultra-Hyper-Calvinism. It is wrong, it is not true Calvinism.

yes , he assumes believing and understanding wonderful dogmas saves a person , that sounds to my ears like "another gospel" !

 

[beloved57]

it seems beloved hasn't changed since he stormed off out of here 6 months or more ago , he thinks only those who hold his brand of theology saved , are there scriptures that suport this view ?

of course not !

Sure there are scripture that support my view, you just ignore them. You cannot believe the gospel without believing the truthes of the gospel..lol..

You cyg hold to a double minded position, you want to make the gospel truth of election , predestination, and limited atonement seperate truth from the gospel..that is false.. You actually hold to an arminian gospel of universal opportunity... thats your true position, though you do concede to the doctrines of grace as some supplemental truth you can take or leave....

 

[beloved57]

yes , he assumes believing and understanding wonderful dogmas saves a person , that sounds to my ears like "another gospel" !

<staff edit>No where have I said that believing anything gets you saved, any honest person reading my post would see that, I said that believing the truth of the gospel makes manifest ones salvation..

 

[cygnusx1]

Sure there are scripture that support my view, you just ignore them. You cannot believe the gospel without believing the truthes of the gospel..lol..

You cyg hold to a double minded position, you want to make the gospel truth of election , predestination, and limited atonement seperate truth from the gospel..that is false.. You actually hold to an arminian gospel of universal opportunity... thats your true position, though you do concede to the doctrines of grace as some supplemental truth you can take or leave....

well whatever I hold to I don't announce some Christians are lost , besides being ungracious I think you will find it goes against this forums rules , so I recommend you get to grips with a more gracious approach , I am sure you know what Grace is so it should be in your words and posts .

Of course I hold to the Gospel offer , if you think it makes me an Arminian then so be it , but then in which case 99% of historic calvinists would also be in your view , Arminian and lost!

one has to seriously wonder just how many people you think are saved , 22 , 125 , 66 ?

 

[beloved57]

When David says God saw his unformed substance, this refers to the conceptus of David, in which God formed David's human spirit.

This verse has far more meaning than its literal meaning, David oft times spoke of himself, but the meaning had deeper spiritual meaning, much like ps 22 and 69..

But that does not suggest that God exercises the same level of influence over everyones life.

Yes, The Sovereign God of the universe exercises the Same Sovereign influence over everyones life and everything...

 

[nobdysfool]

God does not have an "arms-length" relationship with His Creation. All things are held together by the Word of His power. He knows the number of hairs on your head, and has ordained how much (or how little) of your hair you retain. He feeds the sparrows and clothes the lilies. Nothing escapes His attention, or His care. Because He knew and planned David's life, I know that He knows and has planned my life, because He is no respecter of persons, but has ordained that which concerns me. Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him. I can see the hand of God in what has transpired in my life, and I would not be what I am if not for Him. I take no credit, because I don't deserve even what little He has given me. And, He has given in far greater measure than I could even believe. He has brought me up, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon the Rock, and shown to me His Way. I didn't do it, I couldn't do it. He has saved me from two fatal motorcycle accidents, with hardly a scratch. There is no way, apart from Him, that I should have survived the first one, let alone the second one, which was even more dangerous.

If I were to claim any credit for His Great Salvation, any credit at all, I would be spitting on His work in my life, and would be claiming some of His Glory as my own. That I will not do, for He is my Rock, and my Salvation, my Strong High Tower. I run to Him, and cling to Him, because in Him I am safe.

 

[cygnusx1]

you really ought to be considering your approach to others especially Christians , seeing as it is a large part of what we will be judged upon .

Salvation is by grace through faith in the person and work of Christ , not a list of wonderful dogmas.

 

[Melethiel]

Do NOT make this personal.

All accusations of "believing a false Gospel" and not being a "true Christian"
WILL STOP NOW.

Absolutely NO FLAMING is allowed.
​

 

[nobdysfool]

Thanks, Mel!

 

[Van]

Hi Beloved57, So the first shall be in the middle and the last shall be in the middle, is that how scripture reads to you. In Matthew 20:1-16 we learn that God treats people differently, so the view that God treats everyone the same, that He exercises the same level of deterministic influence over everyone is false doctrine.

 

[beloved57]

Election before time is a foundational gospel truth 2tim 1:9 and eph 1:3 yet cyg is trying to make it an optional truth of the gospel, which is a lie..

 

[cygnusx1]

Election before time is a foundational gospel truth 2tim 1:9 and eph 1:3 yet cyg is trying to make it an optional truth of the gospel, which is a lie..

I make no such attempt , I never once claim that any truth is optional , not even so called "secondary doctrines" ........ No truth is optional , all i have said is that no DOGMA , however true , is what saves us , Christ saves us , regardless of intellectual acumen , or grade A's over understanding Biblical doctrines aright.

If Believing wonderful dogmas saved a person then Christ died in vain!