ECT has Committed EVERY Logical Fallacy!

[Jeff Saunders]

Would you please quote the specific ECF writing that claims Jesus and the Apostles misspoke and everyone will ultimately spend eternity in Heaven.

What is ECF

 

[Der Alte]

What is ECF

ECF = Early Church Fathers, the earliest recorded information we have about the church after the N.T. period.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

ECF = Early Church Fathers, the earliest recorded information we have about the church after the N.T. period.

Ok thanks

 

[Jeff Saunders]

What is ECF

Who said they misspoke

 

[LW97Nils]

Matthew 25:46 suggests otherwise. "eternal life" or "eternal punishment" with the same "eternal" for both and the same "eternal life" as all of the other places that Jesus promised it. Accept or discard it all ... it is the same phrase.

Amen.

 

[LW97Nils]

Repent meaning recognizing a person is a sinner, not turning from sins. Because the first is faith alone salvation, which is true. While the latter is works salvation, which is false.

Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

REPENT'ANCE, noun
1. Sorrow for any thing done or said; the pain or grief which a person experiences in consequence of the injury or inconvenience produced by his own conduct.
2. In theology, the pain, regret or affliction which a person feels on account of his past conduct, because it exposes him to punishment. This sorrow proceeding merely from the fear of punishment, is called legal repentance as being excited by the terrors of legal penalties, and it may exist without an amendment of life.
3. Real penitence; sorrow or deep contrition for sin, as an offense and dishonor to God, a violation of his holy law, and the basest ingratitude towards a Being of infinite benevolence. This is called evangelical repentance and is accompanied and followed by amendment of life.
Repentance is a change of mind, or a conversion from sin to God.
Godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation. 2 Corinthians 7:9. Matthew 3:8.
Repentance is the relinquishment of any practice, from conviction that it has offended God.

 

[atpollard]

Who said they misspoke

You said they misspoke (see below). I was merely responding to your “appeal to authority” (quoted again below):

that was not true for the first 300 years of the church. Have you ever read the writings of the early church Fathers UR was the major belief .

by requesting that you point out specifically where the “early church Fathers” teach ”UR” was their belief … so I can read it for myself.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

You said they misspoke (see below). I was merely responding to your “appeal to authority” (quoted again below):


by requesting that you point out specifically where the “early church Fathers” teach ”UR” was their belief … so I can read it for myself.

here are some websites that have some of what I was referring to; salvationforall.org-history/2-catecheticalschools bereanpatriot.com/early fathers on universal redemption forbiddentheology.com and tentmaker.org these are a good place to start.

 

[Der Alte]

here are some websites that have some of what I was referring to; salvationforall.org-history/2-catecheticalschools bereanpatriot.com/early fathers on universal redemption forbiddentheology.com and tentmaker.org these are a good place to start.

I take this to mean you cannot answer atpollard's request, "point out specifically where the 'early church Fathers' teach 'UR' was their belief." Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

You said they misspoke (see below). I was merely responding to your “appeal to authority” (quoted again below):


by requesting that you point out specifically where the “early church Fathers” teach ”UR” was their belief … so I can read it for myself.

I can type it all out but the best way is to go to forbiddentheology.com website then go into articles and go to the page quotes by early church fathers on universalism. thats a good starting place. other websites that also have good information are salvationforall.org /bereanpatriot.com / also tentmaker.org

 

[Jeff Saunders]

here are some websites that have some of what I was referring to; salvationforall.org-history/2-catecheticalschools bereanpatriot.com/early fathers on universal redemption forbiddentheology.com and tentmaker.org these are a good place to start.

I forgot one ; mercyuponall.org/2014/02/03/church-fathers-on-universal-salvation/

 

[Der Alte]

I forgot one ; mercyuponall.org/2014/02/03/church-fathers-on-universal-salvation/

I went to this link and I found supposed quotes from 21 early church fathers. I did NOT see even one document properly identified. And out of the 21, I only found one vs. of scripture." Jeremiah 18:6 says: i.e., to restore them once again to their former state.” — Eusebius of Caesarea.
Does anyone in UR-land know how to properly cite a source?
Here is what Jeremiah 18:6 actually says.

Jeremiah 18:6-10
(6) O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
(7) At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
(8) If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
(9) And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
(10) If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.​

 

[Der Alte]

There will be no Eternal fire for the ungodly simmers. For all whose names are not found in the Book of Life.
They will be annihilated and they will be erased from human memory; remembered no more.

That ain't what Jesus said.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. One cannot translate a noun as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the NT 2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in, e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.
= = =

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite age, by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I went to this link and I found supposed quotes from 21 early church fathers. I did NOT see even one document properly identified. And out of the 21, I only found one vs. of scripture." Jeremiah 18:6 says: i.e., to restore them once again to their former state.” — Eusebius of Caesarea.
Does anyone in UR-land know how to properly cite a source?
Here is what Jeremiah 18:6 actually says.

Jeremiah 18:6-10​

(6) O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.​

(7) At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;​

(8) If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.​

(9) And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;​

(10) If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.​

I am sorry for not doing things that the the world says should be done.

 

[Der Alte]

I am sorry for not doing things that the the world says should be done.

Oh, so you're going to play the victim card? Put yourself in my shoes. What would be your reaction if I claimed to quote 21 historical sources supporting a point I was making without naming the specific writing I was supposedly quoting? How much consideration would you give to those virtually anonymous sources? I don't have to guess, no, zero, none. To say nothing about one of those "sources" misquoted Jeremiah.
Eusebius of Caesarea supposedly quoted Jeremiah 18:6 says: i.e., to restore them once again to their former state.” I can't find those words anywhere in the O.T.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Oh, so you're going to play the victim card? Put yourself in my shoes. What would be your reaction if I claimed to quote 21 historical sources supporting a point I was making without naming the specific writing I was supposedly quoting? How much consideration would you give to those virtually anonymous sources? I don't have to guess, no, zero, none. To say nothing about one of those "sources" misquoted Jeremiah.
Eusebius of Caesarea supposedly quoted Jeremiah 18:6 says: i.e., to restore them once again to their former state.” I can't find those words anywhere in the O.T.

its like this, how do they teach bankers how to spot a fake bill ? do they teach them every way a counterfeit bill can be made and how its made ? No they are taught to know what a real bill is so then when a counterfeit bill comes along they know its not the real thing, its not important how the counterfeit was made , what type of ink or paper , its only important that they know its counterfeit. Its the same with our understanding of Yahwey we are to know him so well when a counterfeit comes along we know its not the real thing, its not important to know how the counterfeit was made only that its not the real deal. So until you know the real thing you can't spot the counterfeit, The western tradition handed down from Augustine, Constantine, Justinian, of who God is has some counterfeit bills that many think are real but they are not. So if you quote some source, that doesn't have what the world says you must have, because I am trying to know the real deal it either is true or false by how does it stack up with my understanding of the real. I don't need the worlds system to tell me if its real or counterfeit , that's the Holy Spirits job.

 

[Der Alte]

* * * The western tradition handed down from Augustine, Constantine, Justinian, of who God is has some counterfeit bills that many think are real but they are not. So if you quote some source, that doesn't have what the world says you must have, because I am trying to know the real deal it either is true or false by how does it stack up with my understanding of the real. I don't need the worlds system to tell me if its real or counterfeit , that's the Holy Spirits job.

I have omitted about half of your post since it does not address anything I posted. For about 25 years I was employed by DOD I taught classes and conducted inspections which included recognizing counterfeit currency.
A little personal anecdote in the '80s I was working as a security specialist in a military commissary in Korea. I was paged to the manager's office over the intercom. When I reached the door the manager was holding a $500 bill in his hand about 6 feet from me. I glanced at it and immediately said, "It is counterfeit." The serial number was the wrong color ink.
More of that same ol' irrelevant, meaningless cop-out mantra about Augustine, Constantine, Justinian etc. I very rarely quote ECF and NEVER if they aren't quoting scripture. Please see my post #73 above and show me where anything I posted could be attributed to Augustine, Constantine, Justinian etc? I won't hold my breath. I have posted those vss. multiple times. Never addressed and most certainly never refuted.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I have omitted about half of your post since it does not address anything I posted. For about 25 years I was employed by DOD I taught classes and conducted inspections which included recognizing counterfeit currency.
A little personal anecdote in the '80s I was working as a security specialist in a military commissary in Korea. I was paged to the manager's office over the intercom. When I reached the door the manager was holding a $500 bill in his hand about 6 feet from me. I glanced at it and immediately said, "It is counterfeit." The serial number was the wrong color ink.
More of that same ol' irrelevant, meaningless cop-out mantra about Augustine, Constantine, Justinian etc. I very rarely quote ECF and NEVER if they aren't quoting scripture. Please see my post #73 above and show me where anything I posted could be attributed to Augustine, Constantine, Justinian etc? I won't hold my breath. I have posted those vss. multiple times. Never addressed and most certainly never refuted.

I am not going to rehash the same thing over and over, if you can't see it maybe its something you are not ready for. It has been spelled out many times on this forum, maybe what you believe is what you need , for myself I have tasted and seen that the Lord is good and some of what the west believes is counterfeit.

 

[Der Alte]

I am not going to rehash the same thing over and over, if you can't see it maybe its something you are not ready for. It has been spelled out many times on this forum, maybe what you believe is what you need , for myself I have tasted and seen that the Lord is good and some of what the west believes is counterfeit.

Now that is the numero uno cop-out of all cop-outs.