ECT has Committed EVERY Logical Fallacy!

[HSong]

Eternal Conscious Torment is false. And the people who believe in ECT have committed EVERY logical fallacy that has been documented in existence ever as per this website below. Logical Fallacy = False notion in logic.

Logical Fallacies - List of Logical Fallacies with Examples



Have faith alone in Jesus Christ to be saved.

Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.



Christian Universalism (UR, those who believe in UR I will refer to as URers as short hand) is the truth. That is, everyone will become believers in Jesus Christ through faith alone. Thus, all people will go to Heaven.

John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."



Let’s analyze the psychological practices that Eternal Conscious Torment believers (referred to as ECTers as short hand) use to falsely promote their belief and the logical fallacies they fall into.



Selective Exposure = ECTers seek out and notice only things that interest them.



Example: I’ve seen ECTers say “Jesus talks more about Hell than Heaven”, but this is false. The truth is that “Jesus talks more about Heaven is Hell.” Here is the evidence that proves this point:



Jesus' Teaching On Hell



To summarize it, the English word describing the concept of Hell does not appear in the Bible.



“How do we know about this place called hell? Where did hell come from? It is not in the Bible. Neither is the name “hell” in the Bible.” – Robin William West



Selective Retention = ECTers ignore and modify ideas, messages and images that aren’t consistent with their beliefs.



Example: ECTers ignore the word “all”. All = All.



1 Corinthians 15:22-28 All will be made alive in Christ, but each in his own turn and ultimately Christ will subdue all His enemies, eliminate death and God will be all in all.



Example: ECTers modify the word “aionios” and “olam” to falsely mean “forever” when it truthfully means “pertaining to an age”



Selective Awareness = ECTers focus on one idea and filter out all other ideas.



Cognitive Dissonance = ECTers holding multiple beliefs that contradict with each other

Example: God is almighty, all powerful He can do everything -> God can’t save everyone.

Psalm 13:5 I trust in your unfailing love; my heart rejoices in your salvation.



Non Sequitar: ECTers premise does not lead to a logical conclusion

Example: God is love. Love is kind. Torture forever is cruel -> God will torture the majority of people forever.

1 Cor. 13:8 "Love never fails."



Ad Hominem: ECTers personally verbally attack whoever they argue with by threatening them with Eternal Conscious Torment

Example: ECTers say “You will burn in hell forever!” during arguments. Meanwhile, us Christian Universalists know that everyone will go to Heaven forever. All will trust in Christ with faith alone and be saved.

ISAIAH 48:10 See, I have refined you ... I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.



Anecdotal: ECTers refer to personal subjective experiences rather than objective fact from the truthful Word of God.

Example: ECTers refer to Near Death Experienes (NDEs) and dreams where people are burning in Hell forever.

Lam. 3:31, 32 "The Lord will NOT cast off forever. Though He causes grief, yet He will show compassion according to the multitude of His mercies."



Appeal to Empathy: ECTers appeal to their raw emotion rather than objective fact.

Example: My dad who believes in ECT wants people who send him spam voicemails on his phone to burn in Hell forever because he finds them annoying.

Isaiah 57:16 "For I will not contend forever, Nor will I always be angry; For the spirit would fail before Me, And the souls which I have made."



Appeal to Ridicule: ECTers say UR is ridiculous because it does not follow their random tradition they made up.

Example: ECTers grew up in a church that promoted ECT so they promote it too.

John 19:30 "It is finished."



Argumentum ad Nauseam: ECTers repeat statements that aren’t evidence over and over again.

Example: ECTers who say that UR is “satanic” and offer no further explanation why

Genesis 12:3 In you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.



Bandwagon: ECTers say that ECT is popular so they think it’s true.

Example: ECTers say that many churches believe in ECT so it must be true, just like how there are many Islamic churches, those are really popular too

Hebrews 1:2: "He [God] has spoken to us by his Son, whom He appointed the heir of all things."



Burden of Proof: ECTers provide no definitive proof that God tortures people forever

Example: ECTers mention a Bible verse that shows God condemning people temporarily, but doesn’t explain how that’s supposed to last forever.

Psalm 18:30 The way of God is perfect.



Continuum Fallacy: ECTers confuse temporary punishment with permanent punishment.

Example: God punished Israel in this book. Then God punished Israel again in this book. Thus God will punish Israel forever.

Meanwhile the truth is Rom. 11:26 "ALL Israel will be saved."



Etymological Fallacy: ECTers think a term’s new meaning is a term’s old meaning.

Example: ECTers think “aionios” and “olam” mean “forever” even though in Greek and Hebrew, they knew these terms meant “temporary”

Psalm 100:5 For the Lord is good and his love endures; his faithfulness continues to all generations.



Fallacy of Composition and Division: ECTers think one part of something applies to the whole part.

Example: ECTers believe that just because a person in flesh was punished once that they will be punished forever.

Joel 2:28 God's Spirit "will be poured out on ALL FLESH."



False Cause & False Attribution: ECTers apply biased, false and irrelevant information.

Example: ECTers get the Parable of the Rich Man and think it’s literally physical and that’s it, even though it’s a Parable, meaning it has a spiritual meaning.

Psalm NEB 107:43 Let the wise man lay these things to heart, and ponder the record of the Lord's enduring love.



Furtive Fallacy: ECTers make decisions based on information that doesn’t exist.

Example: The English term for the concept of Hell never appeared in the original Bible.

Psalm 103:22 Praise the Lord, all his works everywhere in His dominion.



Genetic Fallacy: ECTers believe people based on where they come from only.

Example: I was brought up believing in ECT. I believe in ECT because my parents are good people and they wouldn’t lie to me

False, let every man be a liar, as God says! And God says UR is true!

Psalm 86:9 All the nations you have made will come and worship before you, 0 Lord; they will bring glory to your name.



Incomplete Comparison: ECTers compare two things that are not related.

Example: ECTers believe God is good so they think God will torture people forever.

Torturing people forever and goodness are not related at all!

Psalm 102:19-21 The Lord looked down from His sanctuary on high, from heaven He viewed the earth, to hear the groans of the prisoners and release those condemned to death.



Kettle Logic: Inconsistent logic to prove a position

Example: ECTers say God never lies. And God says He will save everyone. Then ECTers say God will not save everyone.

Psalm 17:7 Show me how marvelous thy true love can be.



Middle Ground: A compromise must exist between two extremes to satisfy conclusion.

Example: ECTers think that God can only save a few people, otherwise everyone will be stuck in Hell forever, so we should be grateful that a few lucky guys one the lottery I guess

God will save everyone!

Psalm 16:10 You will not leave my soul in Sheol.



Personal Incredulity: ECTers don’t understand all = all, so it must not be true.

Example: ECTers don’t understand how God’s all-encompassing grace can save everyone, so they think it’s not true.

Psalm 13:5 I trust in your unfailing love; my heart rejoices in your salvation.



Proving Too Much: ECTers think ECT is true because God punished people a few times I guess

Example: God punishes some guy once then heals him. ECTers “thus He will punish people forever and never heal them!”

Psalm 10:15 Break the power of wickedness and wrong; hunt out all wickedness until thou can find no more.



Reification: ECTers believe in an abstract concept as if it were concrete fact.

Example: ECTers believe there is a magical place that’s not described in the Bible where people are burned up and then somehow they’re skin would like regenerate or something? And then they would burn again, but oops, all the pain censors would be there, so I guess those grew back, and then they burn up again. And then everyone sees their family members getting tortured and are all smiling waving at them.

Yeah… because Jesus was also tortured on the cross forever to pay for the wages of sin. Look, the wages of sin is death, and God gives life to all, thus all will live.

2 Samuel 14:14 Yet God does not take away a life; but He devises means, so that His banished ones are not expelled from Him.



Shotgun Argumentation: ECTers cherry pick unrelated verses and throw them out of context in order to justify their point

Example: ECTers think that a refining furnace lasts forever, yeah, just like how a blacksmith just leaves his metal ingots in his furnace and doesn’t take it out.

God refines us all through temporary affliction and we are saved by realizing to believe in Christ Jesus through faith alone.

Genesis 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.



Special Pleading: ECTers ignore Bible verses that flat out disprove their point.

Example: Isaiah 40:5 "The glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and ALL FLESH shall see it together; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken."

All flesh, all people, all nations, all in all, Christ in all, all = all.

Genesis 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed



Texas Sharpshooter: ECTers make up patterns that don’t exist to prove their point.

Example: Fire is hot. Parable of Rich Man and Lazarus has fire. Fire is forever.

Parable of Rich Man is a Parable, meaning spiritual meaning. God’s refining fire has an end to the temporary mental affliction.

Genesis 12:3 In you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.

 

[HSong]

Ambiguity: ECTers misinterpret Bible verses and leave fire to be ambiguous, assuming it lasts forever.

Example: God says that the furnace of affliction refines people, this affliction lasts until people are refined. That is, people are convinced to believe in Christ Jesus and be saved, washed of all their sins.

Psalm 2:7-8: "The Lord said to me, `You are my son; today I have begotten you. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession."'



Appeal to Authority: ECTers quote famous pastors (mere humans) who believe in ECT, thus they say it’s true.

Example: My uhhh… my buddy Joe thinks ECT is true. He’s like… he’s like famous my dude. And uhhhh Bob yeah, my cousin, he thinks ECT is true. He showed up in the background of a news report once, like wow, he’s super famous trust me.

God says UR is true. Let every man be a liar.

1 Timothy 2:3-6: "This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time."



Appeal to Nature: ECTers think it’s natural for God to torture people forever.

Example: God hates sin! So He will torture people forever!

God hates sin, but loves the sinner. So He will save all sinners from sin by washing all sin away through Christ Jesus. That’s God’s nature.

Philippians 2:10-11: "At the name of Jesus every knee will bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."



Appeal to Tradition: ECTers say people in the past believed in ECT.

Example: Someone in a history book once said God will torture people forever, so I think it’s true

Let every man be a liar. God says UR is true.

Colossians 1:19-20: Through Christ "God was pleased ... to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross."



Argumentum ad Populum: ECTers say ECT is true because many people may think ECT is true.

Example: Here’s a graph that shows how many believe in ECT. Look at that, big number. Me true.

Yep, just like how Islam also has a big number.

Ephesians 4:10: "He who descended is the one who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things."



Begging the Question: Circular arguments

Example: ECTers say God tortures people forever because torturing people forever is what God does

God will save everyone forever because saving people forever is what God does. Without a Bible verse, there’s nothing there. The Bible says God saves everyone forever through Christ faith alone, so we know it’s true.

Luke 15:4: "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it?"



Circular Reasoning: One reasoning to claim another reasoning

Example: Torment is Eternal because it’s Concious and that’s Eternal Concious Torment!

Built on the false belief of Eternal meaning forever, when it means pertaining to an age, so the foundation is weak and the whole argument falls apart instantly.

1 Corinthians 15:22 "In Christ shall all be made alive"



Equivocation: ECTers use misleading terms without clarification

Example: ECTers say “eternal” mean forever, even though that contradicts parts in the Bible that say it’s pertaining to an age

Hebrews 9:26 “He has put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself”



Fallacy Fallacy: I’m predicting some ECTers will reply to this post and use some of the fallacies against me XD So… am I right lol? Just because I may say something that you think is a fallacy, doesn’t make God wrong. And God says UR is true, so it’s true.

Example: ECTer says “You say I’m this fallacy but you’re actually this fallacy!”.

The Lord is never false, He is always true. And thus UR is true.

John 1:29 “The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!”



Fallacy of Quoting Out of Context: ECTers quote God out of context.

Example: ECTers think that God punishes forever, but God says He doesn’t not punish forever!

Acts 3:21 NLT: “[Jesus] must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of ALL things, as God promised long ago through the prophets."



False Dilemma: ECTers make false dichotomies

Example: ECTers say either God tortures most people forever or God torture everybody forever.

God will save everyone forever, no matter what, because Christ has come to save all people forever!

2 Corinthians 5:19: "In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself."



Gambler's Fallacy: ECTers think separate events prove independent events.

Example: This verse has the word “eternal condemnation” and they think it means forever, when it means condemnation pertaining to an age.

1 Timothy 2:3-6: "This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time."



Ignoratio Elenchi: ECTers make irrelevant conclusion, misses the point of God’s love

Example: God created creation in Genesis and said it was very good. Yet, He wants to torture creation forever? That’s not very good. That’s very bad.

Thus, God will save all people by faith alone in Christ because that is truly very good.

Genesis 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed



Inflation of Conflict: ECTers think there’s too many different opinions to make a decision so they don’t do anything at all. Hmph!

Example: ECTers say that there’s debates against UR so they think UR is false, even though all those debates are started by them because they don’t understand UR lol.

Psalm NEB 86:13 For thy true love stands high above me; thou hast rescued my soul from the depths of Sheol.



Loaded Question: ECTers asks presumptuous claims

Example: ECTer says “So you agree that God will torture people forever and that this is good right?”

That’s loaded. God is good. God does not torture people forever. Thus UR is true.

PSALM 145:3-17 Great is the Lord and most worthy of praise; his greatness no one can fathom. .I will meditate on your wonderful works



No True Scotsman: ECTers are confused about the purity of God’s love

Example: God is love. Love is torturing people forever! Thus God will torture people forever!

Ridiculous, truly. ECTers try to redefine love, when love is gentle, kind and respectful and patient.



Proof by Verbosity: ECTers intimidate people to believe in ECT

Example: Believe ECT is true or you will go through ECT!

Only faith alone in Christ saves us. And Christ will thus save all people. Everyone will believe in Jesus through faith alone.

ISAIAH 1:25 I will thoroughly purge away your dross and remove all your impurities.



Red Herring: ECTers go on irrelevant topics to prove their point.

Example: ECTers say because God condemned Israel that He will condemned them everyone forever.

God strikes and He always heals. God’s punishment is always for correction, temporary.

ECCLESIASTES 3:14 Everything God does will endure for ages.



Retrospective Determinism: ECTers say that ECT is true because it’s inevitable

Example: It doesn’t matter what you UR people think because God will not save everyone!

False, God will save everyone. Our will can’t stop God’s will to save everyone through Christ. UR is true.

PSALM 139:8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, you are there.



Slippery Slope: ECTers think that if this condemnation happened then this condemnation forever will eventually happen.

Example: Israel got condemned once. So they’re condemned forever!

False, God will save Israel and all nations through Jesus.

Psalm 118:1 Give thanks to the Lord, for He is good; His love endures forever.



Strawman: ECTers misrepresent UR arguments.

Example: Universalism thinks everyone will go to Heaven for free no faith nothing!

False. You must believe in Christ with faith alone to be saved. Thus, everyone will become believers in Christ with faith alone and thus all will be saved and go to Heaven.

Psalm 107:43 Let the wise man lay these things to heart, and ponder the record of the Lord's enduring love.



Tu Quoque: ECTers respond to criticism with false criticism

Example: ECTers say something is “the devil” and does not provide evidence to it, meanwhile they say they’re side is “of God” and provide not evidence to it.

PSALM 103:8-14 The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in mercy. He will not always strive with us, nor will He keep His anger forever.



Bad Reason Fallacy: ECTers don’t understand God’s grace for all, so they don’t think everyone will be saved.

Example: ECTers thinking all doesn’t mean all for some reason???

ALL = ALL this is true

Psalm 100:5 For the Lord is good and his love endures forever; his faithfulness continues to all generations.



Quantification Fallacies: ECTers falsely say that eternal concious torment exists because they think God wants to torture people forever.

Example: God tortures people forever because he wants to!

False! God refines people in a furnace, He does not afflict people forever, He saves people.

Psalm 86:9 All the nations you have made will come and worship before you, 0 Lord; they will bring glory to your name.



Propositional Fallacies: ECTers compound propositions resulting in errors.

Example: ECTers think punishment must be forever.

False! God makes it clear that punishment is only temporary.

1 Timothy 2:3-6: "This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time."



Syllogistic Fallacies: ECTers make many errors in deduction.

Example: ECTers think love = torture forever.

False! Love is truth, kindness, all people will discover the truth behind God’s infinite kindness to all.

Philippians 3:20-21: "But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like His glorious body, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself."



That was fun! My friends, I hope you found that interesting God blesses everyone with love and salvation. The Lord will have absolute victory over the whole word. That is, everyone will receive salvation through Christ Jesus. Everyone will believe in Jesus Christ with faith alone and be saved!

ISAIAH 48:10 See, I have refined you ... I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.

ISAIAH 45:22-24 "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth. By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. They will say of me, `In the Lord alone are righteousness and strength.'"

 

[Lost Witness]

God says UR is true. Let every man be a liar.

 

[public hermit]

I don't know that accusing ECT proponents of committing every fallacy in the book is helpful or warranted.

ECT has been relentlessly promoted by the church since the 5th century and it is a powerful position because it plays on our worst possible fears, e.g., to suffer forever, to be separated from God and all others forever, to have hopelessness and despair as one's neverending lot.

I agree that is a horrendous doctrine and empties one's notion of God of anything that resembles real love that seeks to bring about the good of creatures. But if we want to change hearts we have to show a better understanding and do so with love and a fearlessness that comes from knowing a divine love that doesn't give up but gently and persistently woos the soul toward the ultimate good for which it was created. If love does not caste out fear, then unhelpful, unwarranted broad stroke accusations won't help much either, I don't think.

My own journey from hopeful universalism to confident universalism has been gradual. I did not come to it through emotion but prayerful consideration. I don't think it's a simple thing to leave ECT behind or to even question it.

Here's a helpful video and a link to the article mentioned. Perhaps someone reading this has real concerns and is willing to investigate God's unrelenting love.

Universalism and the Bible – Keith DeRose

campuspress.yale.edu

 

[keras]

There will be no Eternal fire for the ungodly simmers. For all whose names are not found in the Book of Life.
They will be annihilated and they will be erased from human memory; remembered no more.

 

[HSong]

helpful or warranted

Lol, when having conversations with ECT people in general, I've noticed that overall a lot of their arguments fall into fallacies. Especially stuff like "Fallacy of Tradition" where they were taught ECT in their church so they think it's true.

Overall, the whole point about fallacies is that we should not discuss things with mere human points, but rather, for every point we make, we must back it up with scripture.

Rev. 15:4 "ALL nations shall come and worship You, for your judgments have been made manifested."

 

[HSong]

annihilated

I used to believe in ECT, then I became an Annihilationist (Conditional Immortality) and red a lot on the topic. Eventually though, I discovered the Christian Universalism was the truth and became a Christian Universalist. So everyone's at their own point in their own journey, so I hope that those who believe in ECT will realize the errors in their ways at least.

For me, my problem with Annihliationism is that there's still a forever consequence, where they're destroyed forever. I've got family members I've been trying to convert to Christianity, and the thought of them getting tortured forever or getting destroyed forever I still see as negative outcomes.

Rom. 12:17 We are not to "repay evil for evil."

 

[HSong]

View attachment 326816

Repent meaning recognizing a person is a sinner, not turning from sins. Because the first is faith alone salvation, which is true. While the latter is works salvation, which is false.

Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

 

[atpollard]

What fallacy is it when a UR proponent "reimagines" everything that Jesus and the Apostles "said/wrote" to mean the opposite of what the words say?

• torment doesn't mean torment.
• eternal doesn't mean eternal.
• gnashing doesn't mean gnashing.

 

[HSong]

What fallacy is it

Fallacy implies it's false. However UR is true. For ECTers I wonder why

1. all doesn't mean all
2. eternal doesn't mean eternal
3. worship doesn't mean worship

 

[Hmm]

What fallacy is it when a UR proponent "reimagines" everything that Jesus and the Apostles "said/wrote" to mean the opposite of what the words say?

• torment doesn't mean torment.
• eternal doesn't mean eternal.
• gnashing doesn't mean gnashing.

• Where does it say "torment" in scripture?
• The Greek word "aionios" doesn't mean "eternal" if by that you mean "everlasting". That's a mistranslation. Google it if you are interested in what it actually means.
• "Gnashing" means "gnashing" but it refers to the gnashing teeth of the wild dogs when they were consuming the corpses of executed criminals that were thrown on the rubbish top of Gehenna, not the teeth of human beings who are in some sort of literal Dante's hell. Would I be gnashing my teeth if I was in a fiery pit? That would be the last thing on my mind to do.

So, perhaps it's you who is reimagining what Jesus said...

 

[atpollard]

The Greek word "aionios" doesn't mean "eternal". It's a mistranslation.

Got it ... so no "eternal life".

Matthew 19:16 καὶ ἰδοὺ εἷς προσελθὼν αὐτῷ εἶπεν διδάσκαλε τί ἀγαθὸν ποιήσω ἵνα σχῶ ζωὴν αἰώνιον

Matthew 19:29 καὶ πᾶς ὅστις ἀφῆκεν οἰκίας ἢ ἀδελφοὺς ἢ ἀδελφὰς ἢ πατέρα ἢ μητέρα ἢ τέκνα ἢ ἀγροὺς ἕνεκεν τοῦ ὀνόματός μου ἑκατονταπλασίονα λήμψεται καὶ ζωὴν αἰώνιον κληρονομήσει

Matthew 25:46 καὶ ἀπελεύσονται οὗτοι εἰς κόλασιν αἰώνιον οἱ δὲ δίκαιοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον

Mark 10:30 ἐὰν μὴ λάβῃ ἑκατονταπλασίονα νῦν ἐν τῷ καιρῷ τούτῳ οἰκίας καὶ ἀδελφοὺς καὶ ἀδελφὰς καὶ μητέρας καὶ τέκνα καὶ ἀγροὺς μετὰ διωγμῶν καὶ ἐν τῷ αἰῶνι τῷ ἐρχομένῳ ζωὴν αἰώνιον

 

[atpollard]

Where does it say "torment" in scripture?

Strong's G928​

Matthew 8:6; 8:29; 14:24
Mark 5:7; 6:48
Luke 8:28
2 Peter 2:8
Revelation 9:5; 11:10; 12:2; 14:10; 20:10

 

[Hmm]

Got it ... so no "eternal life".

Eternal also means "of God". Hence "eternal life" but not "eternal torture". But, as I say, it's easy enough to look it up if you're interested in learning what it means. It's a very complex word.

 

[Hmm]

Strong's G928​

Matthew 8:6; 8:29; 14:24
Mark 5:7; 6:48
Luke 8:28
2 Peter 2:8
Revelation 9:5; 11:10; 12:2; 14:10; 20:10

I meant "torment" in the sense of Eternal Conscious Torment. Obviously. Sigh.

 

[public hermit]

What fallacy is it when a UR proponent "reimagines" everything that Jesus and the Apostles "said/wrote" to mean the opposite of what the words say?

There's no reimagining. Greek speaking Christians understood Greek and that aionios does not mean eternal. It was ill-informed Latin speakers, like Augustine, who didn't know Greek and got it wrong. In other words, they understood that in the next age some go to the age of life, others to the age of punishment, but eventually God will be all in all. They understood God's justice as merciful and remedial, not penal and retributive.

They understood the blessed hope concerned the restoration of all things-apokatastaseos panton (Acts 3:21).

I realize you assume proponents of universal restoration are changing meanings, but early interpreters have left us with a witness that was rejected by the Church of the Empire in favor of eternal torment. It's an unfortunate fact but one we need to face.

 

[atpollard]

There's no reimagining. Greek speaking Christians understood Greek and that aionios does not mean eternal.

How does the Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Church translate it?
They never bothered with Latin and still teach "eternal life" from "ζωὴν αἰώνιον".

 

[public hermit]

How does the Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Church translate it?
They never bothered with Latin and still teach "eternal life" from "ζωὴν αἰώνιον".

It depends on which one you ask. No offense to our EO brothers and sisters, but they have rejected the manifold witness of early Christians for the sake of power. They're just another shade of the Church of the Empire thanks to Justinian.

 

[atpollard]

I meant "torment" in the sense of Eternal Conscious Torment. Obviously. Sigh.

Revelation applies "torment" to the fallen angels and speaks of men joining them in the lake.
Matthew 25:46 speaks of "eternal" life and punishment as two options.
Deny them at your own risk, but Christ provided the warning.
John 3:18 - no judgement or already judged are the two choices.

 

[atpollard]

Eternal also means "of God". Hence "eternal life" but not "eternal torture". But, as I say, it's easy enough to look it up if you're interested in learning what it means. It's a very complex word.

Matthew 25:46 suggests otherwise. "eternal life" or "eternal punishment" with the same "eternal" for both and the same "eternal life" as all of the other places that Jesus promised it. Accept or discard it all ... it is the same phrase.