Don't expect a rapture in Rev. 4- the Redeemer isn't found till Rev.5

[vinsight4u]

done

 

[Lyle]

That would be a solid argument if the rapture was proof-texted in Revelation 4 when John is called saying "Come up here." The passage also states the purpose of John going up there and that is to see what is about to take place. The text, at face value, only shows John's invitation to heaven to be for the purpose of receiving a vision, because he did continue with life after the vision was complete.

 

[Super Kal]

the problem with that so-called "proof text" is that the only way you get that belief is by going into that verse with a pre-conceived thought, or eisogesis... something God warns us not to do (1 Peter 1:20)

 

[Lyle]

absolutely. I think we misunderstand why Revelations is written to Christians because we think we already know what is going on in the book. We fill in God's blanks, in essence. The book of Revelation was not written as a post-rapture survival guide.

 

[Super Kal]

actually, it was, lyle... many many times n the Bible it says that we will go through tribulation... Acts 14:22 even says almost that verbatim

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Lyle]

Kal - I think you misunderstood me. I was saying 'post rapture' guide. This is for the Christians I have asked who believe we will be raptured and Revelation will not be relevant to us. I was just asking "why is it written to Christians today if it doesn't apply to us?"

vinsight4u - I am going to ask a question. Actually a few. Why do they lose their seats? Why do they throw off their crowns? Where did they get their authority of anyway? From God or from their crown? Is God ever mentioned wearing a crown?

We are already redeemed, regardless of what happens.

 

[Super Kal]

my mistake then.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

The church is given her glorified bodies in the 5th seal of Rev 6. The only garments the church is expecting to ever be given is our glorified bodies at the time of the rapture. (1 Cor 15/Romans 8)

 

[Dispy]

The Church, the Body of Christ is not found in the book of the Revelation. The book of Revelation is the fulfillment of all OT prophecies pertaing to the nation of Israel. The Church the Body of Christ will have already been raptured to heaven before the events mentioned in the book of the Revelation begins.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Dispy]

Before what events mentioned in the book?
Do you know the church was prophesied by Moses?

Deuteronomhy 32


Rev.4 shows
John went to heaven - in the spirit
)not the eternal life body
he even weeps
is confused later - and tries to worship an angel

Rev. 4
in the spirit

describes the throne area

Why do you think if John was raptured as being the entire church - he hears four beasts saying this?

"Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come."

Why not - hey Jesus that was sure cool you getting everybody and welcome back.

Instead, John hears about He is to come.


It doesn't make any sense for people to place the rapture in Rev. 4. I have heard people say such things - as - John represents the entire church being raptured and - then horrible times begin on the earth.

Well, look too with me at v 5; for there aren't even any plagues yet being mentioned in the list.

v5
"...out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices..."


But get to Rev. 8:5 and we find
"thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake."

Now there will come a time of plagues - and that section of time will end with an earthquake.

Rev. 11:13
"And the same hour was there a great earthquake..."
(the third woe)
(7th trumpet)
(6th seal)


Rev. 4 shows John was caught up - alone - Jesus never descended to get him - it wasn't cloud time - the last trumpet event didn't unfold.

but four beasts repeat and repeat over and over a phrase

till when?

until it is time for this part
"And when those beasts give glory, and honour, and thanks..."

now - we come to where the 24 elders that have been seen as sitting since the start of the chapter - will fall

(so we have to also be in Rev. 11:16)

"And the four and twenty elders. which sat before God on their seats, fell..."


At both the end of Rev. 4 and this part of Rev. 11 - John has not yet seen the elders do anything but sitting down at the throne area.

If he had seen them doing other things - or heard them saying stuff - he would have said - the 24 elders that fell - fell again - and again -

But at the point of Rev. 11 (7th trumpet) - John has only seen this group as in seats.
and now - they fall upon their faces and worship God

John was in the time of part of the 7th trumpet as he told us about the end of Rev. 4.

In Rev. 5 - the 24 elders and the four beasts fall - but no one was first seated just before that moment of falling down.

John was in the time of the 7th trumpet - that means he has seen all of the previous trumpet events up to when the two witnesses had been slain by the beast - and now John knew he had been told by the angel of Rev. 11 that the two rise at the same hour as a great earthquake.

Find the earthquake event- and find the when the just get resurrected at cloud time.

But first - John would need to weep over a sealed book - the great earthquake must get unsealed from that book.

How could anyone of the church have come to the day of redemption- the day when she is to look up for her redemption draweth nigh - before Rev. 5?

The Redeemer must be located still in Rev. 5.

The sealed book must get opened - bringing in the day of redemption for the church.

When you respond with something more understandable as to what you are saying, I will respond.

Where do you find the Church, the Body of Christ in Deut.2?

 

[vinsight4u]

./

 

[Bobgf]

Good point, Valerie

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Nobody is LOSING THEIR SEATS, VIN!

They are prostrating themselves in worship to GOD!

An explanation of the 24 elders is in Zech 3.

 

[vinsight4u]

/