Does the day of Christ resurrections tell us to change the worship of Sabbath?

Leaf473

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And if you come up to judgment day and find out you're wrong?
It will be just like if we find out we were supposed to be putting tassels on our clothes all this time :)

You've said you don't think God views me as disobedient or self righteously trying to earn my salvation so where does that place you?
On the same team :heart: I don't think either of us is knowingly disobedient or trying to earn our salvation :)
 
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Gary K

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It will be just like if we find out we were supposed to be putting tassels on our clothes all this time :)


On the same team :heart: I don't think either of us is knowingly disobedient or trying to earn our salvation :)
Leaf,

I owe you an apology. I had no right to be so judgmental as I cannot know what is in your heart. I'm sorry for my judgmental attitude.

Another user here pointed out how badly I was treating you and ralliann and he was correct as I prayed about this last night and God caused me to understand just how far I was in the wrong. So, once again, I'm sorry, and you have been very kind under duress.
 
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Leaf473

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Leaf,

I owe you an apology. I had no right to be so judgmental as I cannot know what is in your heart. I'm sorry for my judgmental attitude.

Another user here pointed out how badly I was treating you and ralliann and he was correct as I prayed about this last night and God caused me to understand just how far I was in the wrong. So, once again, I'm sorry, and you have been very kind under duress.
Apology fully accepted :heart:
 
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safswan

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Thank you, safswan, for your post. There's lots of great points in it, I'll start with this first one that you bring up. I have sought to determine if the primary arguments put forward by seventh day observers are valid. By comparing those arguments to other specific instructions in the law of Moses, I have concluded that they are not.

This is a discussion forum, so I think it would be great if you would like to discuss that. We can "compare notes", if you wish :)
Good day Leaf,


You wrote:

“Thank you, safswan, for your post. There's lots of great points in it, I'll start with this first one that you bring up. I have sought to determine if the primary arguments put forward by seventh day observers are valid. By comparing those arguments to other specific instructions in the law of Moses, I have concluded that they are not.

This is a discussion forum, so I think it would be great if you would like to discuss that. We can "compare notes", if you wish.”



I am not sure what are those arguments, from seventh day observers, which you have considered and compared, and then concluded they are not valid. My last response to you had what I consider to be a primary argument. However you failed to respond to what I wrote. The discussion has begun and you are invited to respond.





You wrote:



“...if the primary arguments are valid or not.
Is one of the primary arguments that there is a difference between the law of God and the law of Moses?”



No, this is not one of my arguments.



You wrote:


“An animal sacrifice is called the law of the Lord. (I assume that the law of the Lord is the same as the law of God.)
So it's not true that we keep all of the law of God.
We do keep all of the law of God as it relates to us today. That's where I think discussing particular laws is helpful”


I agree, and would like to hear your take on what you consider to be, “all of the law of God as it relates to us today”.




You wrote:


“Is there a passage of scripture that talks about the idea of:
When dealing with the law, first consider the Ten Commandments in isolation. Then move on to the other laws.
I'm not aware of a passage that says that. Is there one?”



I would think this would be the obvious point to start. Even the Lord, “started”, here as He revealed His will to the children of Israel as they came out of Egypt.Even Jesus was asked about eternal life and His response directed those who asked to the ten. Paul also taught that this was integral in expressing love and that the transgression of the same is contrary to the gospel. Even look at how certain denominations viewed the ten



BAPTISTS FOR THE LAW AND TEN COMMANDMENTS
TYNDALE FOR THE LAW AND TEN COMMANDMENTS




In response to another poster you said:
“I think most everyone is clear on what the Ten Commandments are. How we apply them today, that's where people see it differently, imo.”



I would love to hear your view as to how they are to be applied today.
 
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safswan

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Love is the commitment to provide the necessities for well being to those who are unable to do it for themselves just as one provides them for oneself.

And the Trinity?

You do not understand Heb 3:7-4:11.
Good day,

You wrote:
“Love is the commitment to provide the necessities for well being to those who are unable to do it for themselves just as one provides them for oneself.


I Corinthians 13:
3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

According to the apostle Paul you are still short of something. Any idea what this is?



safswan said:

There is no scripture which says Jesus is our Sabbath rest. This is an invention of men.
You wrote
“And the Trinity?
You do not understand Heb 3:7-4:11.”


There is nothing in Hebrews which says Jesus is our Sabbath rest in my understanding. Could you enlighten me on where it says this?.
Love and the ten commandments are clearly linked in the scriptures see below:




Love And The Ten Commandments


The most surprising and disturbing error among law and Ten Commandments bashers is the failure to understand the relation between love, the law and the Ten Commandments.Some attempt to prove that the word commandment as used in John 14:15, 21; I John 2:3-4; 3:22, 24; 5:2-3; Matthew 22:36-38; I John 3:23; 4:21; II John:5-6, has nothing to do with the ten commandments. They say:

"Clearly none of the commandments cited in the above passages refers to the ten commandments. "

Or claim they walk by the Spirit as if the Spirit of God is opposed to the law/love/ten commandments.

What is Love? How do we love? The very scriptures used in this determination show what it is to love. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

"For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." (John 5:3).

Love is not just a feeling we have but our actions will determine whether or not we love. (Seel John 3:18).

This relationship was seen in the giving of the Ten Commandments and with the law as a whole. Loving God and keeping the Ten Commandments were clearly linked together, even as the commandments were spoken at Sinai. (See Exodus 20:6). When the commandments had been spoken, it was then that God revealed His intention concerning them. It is by having these words in their hearts that the people would love God with all their hearts. (Deuteronomy 6:4-6).

The apostle Paul confirms that, by observing the Ten Commandments, we fulfill the law, and also the portion of the commandments, which concern human-to-human relations, is summarized or comprehended by saying:

"Thou shaft love thy neighbour as thyself." (Romans 13:8-9). N.B. To love, according to God's standards, we must keep his commandments. The command to love our neighbor is a summary of the Ten Commandments, which can also be summarized by saying we should:

"Love the Lord thy God with all thine heart and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." (Deuteronomy 6:5).

The Lord Jesus also taught that the purpose of the law and prophets, including the Ten Commandments, was to teach us how to love. He said:

"On these two commandments hang all the law and prophets." (See Matthew 22:36-40).

Hang - depend upon, that which they enjoin or prescribe.

Hence the law and prophets explain how we show love to God and our neighbours. God did not leave us to decide how to love him but gave us comprehensive instructions about this. He knows it is not in man to guide himself. (Jeremiah 10:23; Romans 7:7).

Note carefully why Cain is considered not to have loved his brother. (I John 3:11-12). He slew him!! i.e. he transgressed, "Thou shalt not kill." Hence, if we are keeping God's commandments about love, we cannot be killing, stealing, lying, committing adultery, dishonouring parents, coveting, taking God's name in vain, having other gods, making images, profaning the Sabbath. N. B. other commands also give further instructions about how the above is to be properly accomplished; eg. Leviticus 19:11-13 shows that to defraud is a part of stealing and Leviticus 19:17 shows that we should not hate our brother in the heart.

The conclusion is: Without keeping the ten commandments we cannot be any better than Cain and the assertion by persons who deny this, that "We too yield to the authority of those verses"; or that they walk by the Spirit,is a lie.


There is no love without keeping the Ten Commandments.


 
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Leaf473

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Good day Leaf,


You wrote:

“Thank you, safswan, for your post. There's lots of great points in it, I'll start with this first one that you bring up. I have sought to determine if the primary arguments put forward by seventh day observers are valid. By comparing those arguments to other specific instructions in the law of Moses, I have concluded that they are not.

This is a discussion forum, so I think it would be great if you would like to discuss that. We can "compare notes", if you wish.”



I am not sure what are those arguments, from seventh day observers, which you have considered and compared, and then concluded they are not valid.
My last response to you had what I consider to be a primary argument.
Your last response to me contained a lot of points. Which of those is the primary argument you are referring to?

However you failed to respond to what I wrote. The discussion has begun and you are invited to respond.
Thanks! If you could be more specific, that would be great :)

You wrote:



“...if the primary arguments are valid or not.
Is one of the primary arguments that there is a difference between the law of God and the law of Moses?”



No, this is not one of my arguments.



You wrote:


“An animal sacrifice is called the law of the Lord. (I assume that the law of the Lord is the same as the law of God.)
So it's not true that we keep all of the law of God.
We do keep all of the law of God as it relates to us today. That's where I think discussing particular laws is helpful”
I agree, and would like to hear your take on what you consider to be, “all of the law of God as it relates to us today”.
All of the instructions in the Bible could be considered the law of God imo. It's good to be careful though to look for the goal of the instruction, as opposed to the literal meaning. For example, after telling the story of the Good Samaritan, Jesus told the lawyer to "go and do likewise". That doesn't mean we should all travel between Jerusalem and Jericho.

I think the principles of all of the instructions in the law of Moses are to be followed today, but they aren't necessarily to be followed to the letter.

You wrote:


“Is there a passage of scripture that talks about the idea of:
When dealing with the law, first consider the Ten Commandments in isolation. Then move on to the other laws.
I'm not aware of a passage that says that. Is there one?”
I would think this would be the obvious point to start. Even the Lord, “started”, here as He revealed His will to the children of Israel as they came out of Egypt.
Well, he gave the instructions about the firstborn in Exodus 13.

Even Jesus was asked about eternal life and His response directed those who asked to the ten.
Jesus was teaching under the old Covenant. Jesus also directs the man to the second greatest commandment.

Also, the man asks, "what must I do". The answer is, of course, nothing. There is nothing we can do to inherit eternal life. But the man would not have accepted that answer at that time.

Paul also taught that this was integral in expressing love and that the transgression of the same is contrary to the gospel. Even look at how certain denominations viewed the ten



BAPTISTS FOR THE LAW AND TEN COMMANDMENTS
TYNDALE FOR THE LAW AND TEN COMMANDMENTS




In response to another poster you said:
“I think most everyone is clear on what the Ten Commandments are. How we apply them today, that's where people see it differently, imo.”
I would love to hear your view as to how they are to be applied today.
I believe the principles of all of God instructions are to be applied. In most cases, though, the literal instruction is not to be followed.
 
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safswan

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Someone wrote:

“John MacArthur holds to a similar view and writes, "Now what was the biggest barrier, the biggest genuine barrier between a Jew and a Gentile? What was it? Basically the ceremonial law, wasn't it? The whole Jewish thing." He goes on to say, "Let me hasten to say this. God has a moral law and God's moral law never changes. Never. It never changes. ..God's moral law was formalized in the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20."

So according to Cheung and MacArthur, at very minimum we are under the Ten Commandments. What do you think? You do realize that the command to "keep the Sabbath" is part of the Ten Commandments. So then I guess we are still under the Sabbath law? Do you remember what the penalty was for Sabbath breakers?:”

They continued:

“Most teach that God has done away with the ceremonial and civil aspects of the Law, but not with the moral aspect of the Law. Such a distinction is not drawn anywhere in the Scriptures. The Law is viewed as a unit, or as a whole. James said that anyone who breaks one point of the Law, breaks the whole Law. So what I am saying is that Christ abolished the Mosaic Law, every bit of it. It was given to Israel, not to us and it has been abolished. So what Law are believers under?”


The dilemma of what to do with the Sabbath was one of the major reasons for the rejection of the law of God by some recent theologians. Previously the teaching was:

1)Sunday was the new Sabbath and by observing that day in a manner similar to the Sabbath,the fourth commandment was being upheld.
2)Sunday was the Lord’s day and by observing the same as such the fourth commandment was being upheld.
3)Others viewed the Sabbath as a spiritual rest and by attaining this rest the fourth command was being upheld.


One person of this view wrote:
“We are all told not to eat things offered to idols as that is idol worship, and if anybody thinks that the 10 Commandments no longer apply are deceived !!!”

And he further explains:

“Did you not even look at the list provided to you, as it clearly showed the 4th Command of the Sabbath talked about in Acts 13:14, 42,44, 15:21, 16:13, 17:1-2, and 18:4. However the clearest understanding of how the Sabbath is observed under the New Covenant is stated in Hebrews:
(Hebrews 4:1) "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into His rest, any of you should seem to come short of it."
(Hebrews 4:3) "For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world."
(Hebrews 4:4) "For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
The Sabbath rest is in Jesus now as the Sabbath day rest was a shadow of the true rest to come through Faith in the Lord. We do not get salvation by being obedient to the shadows, we get salvation by remaining in the Faith. Also see Romans 14:5 as it gives insight to this as well that under the New Covenant we no longer have to esteem one day more then another.”


With these types of belief/understanding there could be vigorous preaching and enforcing of the ten commandments as a part of Christian doctrine and practice, without any reservation about the Sabbath. As far as they were concerned,the Sabbath command was being upheld. This was the practice of many esteemed theologians of the recent past and the stance of many orthodox denominations as I have shown in previous posts. I wrote:


As William Tyndale wrote:

“….through Christ's purchasing and merits; they begin to love again, and to consent to the law of God, how that it is good and ought so to be, and that God is righteous which made it; and we desire to fulfill the law, even as a sick man desires to be whole, and hunger and thirst after more righteousness, and after more strength, to fulfill the law more perfectly. And in all that they do, or omit and leave undone, they seek God’s honor and his will with meekness, ever condemning the imperfectness of their deeds by the law”

And :

“The general covenant wherein all other are comprehended and included, is this. If we meek ourselves to God to keep all his laws after the example of Christ: then God has bound himself unto us to keep and make good all the mercies promised in Christ, throughout all the scripture. All the whole law which was given to expose our corrupt nature, is comprehended in the ten commandments. And the ten commandments are comprehended in these two: love God and your neighbor. And he that loves his neighbor in God and Christ, fulfills these two, and consequently the ten, and finally all the other ...”

And also:

“Now if any man that submits not himself to keep the commandments, do think that he has any faith in God: the same man’s faith is vain, worldly, damnable, devilish and plain presumption, as it is above said, and is no faith that can justify or be accepted before God. And that is what James means in his Epistle. For how can a man believe says Paul, without a preacher (Rom. 10). Now read all the scripture and see where God sent any to preach mercy to any, save unto them only that repent and turn to God with all their hearts, to keep his commandments. Unto the disobedient that will not turn, is threatened, wrath, vengeance and damnation, according to all the terrible curses and fearful examples of the Bible. Faith now in God the Father through our Lord Jesus Christ, according to the covenants and appointment made between God and us, is our salvation ...”


The views of the Baptist denomination are similar and they speak positively of the law of God and the ten commandments as being a part of Christian doctrine and practice. Here are some of the statements which affirm this truth:

"We believe that the law of God is the eternal and imperishable rule of His moral government." —(Baptist Church Manual.)

"The first four commandments set forth man's obligations directly toward God.... The fourth commandment sets forth God's claim on man's time and thought.... Not one of the ten words [commandments] is of merely racial significance.... The Sabbath was established originally [long before Moses] in no special connection with the Hebrews, but as an institution for all mankind, in commemoration of God's rest after six days of creation. It was designed for all the descendants of Adam." —(Adult Quarterly, Southern Baptist Convention series, Aug. 15, 1937.)

“The moral law doth for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it; neither doth Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.”—(1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, Chapter 19, Section 5)



As some men began to see the errors in the interpretations of how the Sabbath is to be observed in the new covenant, the solution to this problem was to denounce the law of God as a whole. The reasoning was; get rid of the law and you get rid of the ten commandments and the Sabbath.

They make statements like:

"I am one who claims to keep nine out of ten, and it's because I can find in the New Testament where it clearly tells me that nine of them are commanded for me, as a Christian, to keep. In fact, five of them are spoken by Jesus in Matt 19."

And:

"The Ten Commandments are given no prominence in the scripture…..The Law is a unit and includes the six hundred and thirteen (613) commandments of the Pentateuch."



Their rule of faith is thus stated:

"The instructions to the Church are clear and direct and embodied in the New Testament."

They also say:

“Finally for you Safswan you do realize that Apostle Paul was referring to the 10 Commandments when he called them this............"The ministry of condemnation." ???You don't believe me go read 2 Corinthians 3:3-7 again as Paul said twice the ministry that was WRITTEN ON TABLETS OF STONE was the ministry of condemnation/death.What was written on stone tablets ??? Answer: It was the 10 Commandments.”



And hence some form of morality is proclaimed, with nine of the ten commandments being upheld, or a ten commandment law is preached with a distorted fourth commandmen,t and at the same time the law is also depreciated, as it is called a ministry of condemnation while a principle termed, “the law of Christ” is promoted as being for Christians.

Many declare that the ten commandments has served a purpose and is therefore no longer needed.

They say:

"The law acted as a mirror revealing the filthiness of the heart and need for cleansing but having seen the filth of sin, the mirror can no longer help us. We must turn from the mirror to a cleansing agent, capable of removing sin. Only Jesus' blood could have accomplished this end."

Or:

“They accused Paul because he taught the laws proper use, which was that it was only to point out sin and lead people to Jesus to be saved (Romans 7, Galatians 3), it was not a requirement to continue to obey to seek eternal life, righteous, or perfection from as the Jews tried to force across.”



Continued in the following post.
 
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safswan

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The reasoning above denies the obvious. If the law showed, “the filth of sin” and it, “was only to point out sin and lead people to Jesus to be saved”, then after this sin is acknowledged and repented of,should we return to the same? How will a sinner know he needs to repent today? How will those who have repented know if they are not going back to that which they have repented of?

Without the mirror, we would not know of our need to repent and be cleansed. We would not realize what we need to repent of. All sinners need this mirror and those who claim to be cleansed must use it to know if they are truly cleansed. Paul said:

"For by the law is the knowledge of sin." (Romans 3:20) and; " I had not known sin but by the law." (Romans 7:7).

And also asked:

“What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace?" He answers: "God forbid." (Romans 6:15).

In other words Paul, unlike those persons quoted above concerning the use of the law, knows the law still retains the function of revealing sin. And if it does then it is a part of Christian doctrine and practice. This is confirmed when Paul declares:

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea we establish the law."(Romans 3:31)

In other words; does being justified by faith without the deeds of the law make the law void, does being saved by grace through faith make the law void?

The answer is,“God forbid”,ie. no. Does the law still serve a purpose?

The answer is yes as it still identifies sin and sinners:

"For by the law is the knowledge of sin." (Romans 3:20) and; " I had not known sin but by the law." (Romans 7:7).

“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”…..“But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.”(I John 3:4; James 2:9)

Paul says it is the carnal person who will not be subject to this law:

“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.”(Romans 8:7)

Are Christians carnal? How can they escape being declared as carnal?

Paul tells how this is done when he says:

“Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.”(Romans 13:8-10)

This clearly points to the ten commandments, as being the law which Christians must be subject to, in order to escape being carnal. The older theologians clearly understood this and hence their stance. The problem was their treatment of the Sabbath, which has caused the modern theologians, to actually throw out the baby with the bathwater. Rather than thinking it was their interpretation, of the way the Sabbath was to be observed which was erroneous, the belief was that it was their entire teaching, concerning the position of the law in Christianity. But was this a genuine belief or a made up teaching, which would see them being still subject to nine of ten commands, while still denouncing law, in order to eliminate the Sabbath from the ten?


Here are some of the bizarre statements:
"We are now led by the spirit of Christ, not by the law,.."

As if the spirit of Christ would be contrary to the ten commandments.

Another:
"Secondly the law identifies and exposes but cannot keep us from sin."

It was never God’s intent that the ten commandments should keep us from sinning. Our love for him should be the motivator and failing that in the old covenant then the threat of punishment would do this.

And another:
"Even so there are certain principles within the law that are included in the new covenant, because they are consistent with the royal law of love."

And somehow nine of the ten commands qualify but the Sabbath command does not.This is really hypocritical.

Also:
".. .many other commandments from all sections of the law are established by our godly life? "

Presumptuous, as it is the law which establishes what is Godly or not. Not our way of life.

All of this is done to avoid dealing with the problem of what to do with the Sabbath while still upholding the other nine commandments. While in the past it was clear the ten were inseparable, various theories are now used to eliminate the Sabbath from being a part of Christian doctrine and this has resulted in the convoluted, bizarre and contradictory doctrine we see today.

With this “new” understanding of the law of God, the problem of how to treat with the Sabbath was solved, or so they thought. Are we to believe all the eminent persons of the past and the Baptist denomination, were “following a perverted gospel”, as they preached and practiced obedience to the law of God, and the ten commandments in particular, as some describe those who continue to do the same
today?

There are some simple examples in scripture which shows the relevance of the law to the Christian. The case of the woman caught in adultery is a prime one:


The woman was found guilty of breaking the command:

"Thou shalt not commit adultery."[Exodus 20:14]

According to the law she was to have been stoned to death.[Leviticus 20:10;John 8:5]

Grace was exercised and Jesus said; "...Neither do I condemn thee.."[John 8:11]

Jesus did not prescribe any remedy for atonement according to the law.[eg.Leviticus 16:1-34]

However at the end of it all, she was told :

"...go and sin no more. " [John 8:11]

Hence; " Thou shalt not commit adultery", still stands and she is still subject to the law of God even thou she did not have to face the punishment also prescribed by the law. Neither was she asked to partake in any of the ceremonial/sacrificial remedies. Hence one part of the law (the ten commandments)is to be observed while other parts are not prescribed by Jesus.


Paul also supports this in his teaching about the law. He says:

"Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the Law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision."(Romans 2:26)

The Law being referred to in Romans 2:26 is clearly the Ten Commandments and the circumcised who breaks the Law is said to be as uncircumcised. (See Romans 2:17-25).

“Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?”(Romans 2:21)

Referring to;”Thou shalt not steal.”

“Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?”(Romans 2:22)

Referring to;”Thou shalt not commit adultery.”,and “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain;”

The "righteousness of the Law" therefore must be a reference to the Ten Commandments as this is the law which caused the circumcised to be viewed as uncircumcised when he broke it, (See Romans 2:21-25) and the uncircumcised who obeyed as circumcised. Hence, approval is given to one who keeps a part of the Law. The uncircumcised is accepted if he keeps the righteousness of the law which must be what the circumcised is accused of breaking and which make his circumcision of no value. This teaching shows clearly the error in the theory that;

“The written Law of Moses also called the "Book of the Law" cannot be separated.........”

Jesus and the apostle Paul have all clearly separated them; and who are we to contradict them?

The theologians of the past, who exalted the law of God as being essential to Christian life, were correct for the most part, and if the modern theologians who now oppose them, had honestly dealt with the Sabbath issue, then this controversy would not exist. The fact is, there is no problem with anyone who advocates the preaching and teaching of nine of the ten commandments.It is the Sabbath command, which causes the great invective against the law of God, and see men contradicting the scriptures and themselves, as they attempt to denounce Gods laws, while trying to appear godly to the world. Jesus warned about those who would especially boast in their gifts and miraculous works for God. They need to repent of their erroneous teaching lest they end up in his condition:

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”(Matthew 7:21-23)


Iniquity - anomia

Thayer Definition:
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Strongs Definition
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness:


safswan.
 
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Leaf473

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Maybe, maybe not. On judgment day, people who thought all their lives til the end of their life they were saved are told otherwise (in final judgement by the one perfect Judge ). People who did not think they did anything for Jesus likewise find out from Jesus that they did. Opposite of what most people ever hear here or think here on earth/ in any group. Whatever God Says Remains True. Whatever men say changes daily and is gone like flowers or grass that grows one day and is thrown into fire the next.
Yes, that's what I was saying :heart:

And this comes to mind as a follow-up passage
 
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Clare73

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You wrote:
“Love is the commitment to provide the necessities for well being to those who are unable to do it for themselves just as one provides them for oneself.
I Corinthians 13:
3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
According to the apostle Paul you are still short of something. Any idea what this is?

Are you short of something?

If you're thinking of agape, a selfless concern for the welfare of others that is not dependent on any quality of lovableness in the person loved, but is the product of a will to love in obedience to God's command, like Christ's love on the cross, which agape indicates patience; kindness; lack of envy, boasting, pride, rudeness, self-anger; keeping no record of wrongs; delighting not in evil but rejoicing in the truth; always protecting, trusting, hoping and persevering, would you be short of something in your assumption of my shortness of these?

Hmm. . .
 
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Clare73

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Maybe, maybe not. On judgment day, people who thought all their lives til the end of their life they were saved are told otherwise (in final judgement by the one perfect Judge ). People who did not think they did anything for Jesus likewise find out from Jesus that they did. Opposite of what most people ever hear here or think here on earth/ in any group. Whatever God Says Remains True. Whatever men say changes daily and is gone like flowers or grass that grows one day and is thrown into fire the next.
Doing things for Jesus does not save.
 
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BobRyan

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..to Sunday, or the first day of the week?

Some people claim the Sabbath was changed by the resurrection or say 'I keep Sunday in honor of the Resurrection', or they are told that the Apostles began keeping Sunday as the day of worship after the resurrection, but did they?

Good point.

1. Not ONE text in the NT says "the Sabbath is now kept on the first day of the week"
2. Not ONE text in the NT says "we now keep the first day of the week as the Lord's Day"
3. Not ONE text in the NT says "we meet for worship every week day 1"
4. Not ONE text in the NT says "We meet on week day 1 in honor of the resurrection on week day 1"
5. Not ONE text in the NT says "The Lord's day is on week day 1"

Yet how many Christians today adopt certain practices AS IF at least one of those examples above WAS/IS found in the NT.
 
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Bob S

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Good day,

You wrote:
“Love is the commitment to provide the necessities for well being to those who are unable to do it for themselves just as one provides them for oneself.


I Corinthians 13:
3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

According to the apostle Paul you are still short of something. Any idea what this is?



safswan said:

There is no scripture which says Jesus is our Sabbath rest. This is an invention of men.
You wrote
“And the Trinity?
You do not understand Heb 3:7-4:11.
There is nothing in Hebrews which says Jesus is our Sabbath rest in my understanding. Could you enlighten me on where it says this?.
Love and the ten commandments are clearly linked in the scriptures see below:
0
Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Matthew 11:28
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.


Hebrews 4:11
Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

7 So, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
8 do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the wilderness,
9 where your ancestors tested and tried me,
though for forty years they saw what I did.
10 That is why I was angry with that generation;
I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.’
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’

We believe the Rest that Hebrews is referring is Jesus Christ. The writer was writing to Jews who were already resting on the weekly Sabbath, so if the writer was referring to the weekly Sabbath, he was writing to the choir.

Is it your theory that Jesus does not provide us Rest???

Love And The Ten Commandments


The most surprising and disturbing error among law and Ten Commandments bashers is the failure to understand the relation between love, the law and the Ten Commandments
bashers??? Sorry you reason with that attitude. Bashing them and knowing we are not under the laws of the old covenant and proclaiming that we are not under them is diametrically opposed. If you would only study those ten you would see that there is absolutely nothing that indicates love. They were the Israelites guide as how to relate to the Godhead and to their fellow man. They were all about duty, not love. God's command for the Israelites to love is commanded in Leviticus and Deuteronomy.
.Some attempt to prove that the word commandment as used in John 14:15, 21; I John 2:3-4; 3:22, 24; 5:2-3; Matthew 22:36-38; I John 3:23; 4:21; II John:5-6, has nothing to do with the ten commandments.
And that "some" would be correct. You, my friend has added something that is not there. Actually, there is not one "ten" in all of the New Testament that refer to commandments.

The only people ever subject to the ten commandments WERE the Israelites and those who converted to the Sinai Covenant. Gentiles have never ever been under the ten commandments given to only one nation, Israel. So, my question is why are you trying to put us under those laws now?
They say:

"Clearly none of the commandments cited in the above passages refers to the ten commandments. "
And "they" are clearly correct.
Or claim they walk by the Spirit as if the Spirit of God is opposed to the law/love/ten commandments.
I guess you haven't read or studied 2Cor3:
6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The Greater Glory of the New Covenant

7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

The Holy Spirit WAS poured out to all at Pentecost. Paul, in the letter to the Corinthians is telling them that it is the Holy Spirit they were to allow to guide them. The ten commandments were temporary and HAS no glory. The greater glory IS the Holy Spirit.
What is Love? How do we love? The very scriptures used in this determination show what it is to love. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
Then Jesus goes on in Jn15 to tell us what His commands are: 9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

Jesus kept Torah because they were the laws He was born under. At His death on the Cross He ushered the new and better covenant in and ratified it with His own blood. Jesus commissioned Paul and others to spread the Good News and part of the good new is that we are not under the Law. That Law had to be Torah.
"For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." (John 5:3).

Love is not just a feeling we have but our actions will determine whether or not we love. (Seel John 3:18).
This same John described what those commands ARE in 1jn3: 19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
This relationship was seen in the giving of the Ten Commandments and with the law as a whole. Loving God and keeping the Ten Commandments were clearly linked together, even as the commandments were spoken at Sinai. (See Exodus 20:6). When the commandments had been spoken, it was then that God revealed His intention concerning them. It is by having these words in their hearts that the people would love God with all their hearts. (Deuteronomy 6:4-6).
trying to link the ten commandments to Deut 6 is like a camel passing through the eye of a needle.
The apostle Paul confirms that, by observing the Ten Commandments, we fulfill the law, and also the portion of the commandments, which concern human-to-human relations, is summarized or comprehended by saying:

"Thou shaft love thy neighbour as thyself." (Romans 13:8-9). N.B. To love, according to God's standards, we must keep his commandments. The command to love our neighbor is a summary of the Ten Commandments, which can also be summarized by saying we should:

"Love the Lord thy God with all thine heart and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." (Deuteronomy 6:5).

The Lord Jesus also taught that the purpose of the law and prophets, including the Ten Commandments, was to teach us how to love. He said:

"On these two commandments hang all the law and prophets." (See Matthew 22:36-40).

Hang - depend upon, that which they enjoin or prescribe.
Loving God and our fellow manis so much more that trying to "keep" the ten commandments. I am so glad for Paul's words to us in Gal 5:
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.


Christians are commited to so much more than a few laws given only to Israel.
Hence the law and prophets explain how we show love to God and our neighbours. God did not leave us to decide how to love him but gave us comprehensive instructions about this. He knows it is not in man to guide himself. (Jeremiah 10:23; Romans 7:7).

Note carefully why Cain is considered not to have loved his brother. (I John 3:11-12). He slew him!! i.e. he transgressed, "Thou shalt not kill." Hence, if we are keeping God's commandments about love, we cannot be killing, stealing, lying, committing adultery, dishonouring parents, coveting, taking God's name in vain, having other gods, making images, profaning the Sabbath. N. B. other commands also give further instructions about how the above is to be properly accomplished; eg. Leviticus 19:11-13 shows that to defraud is a part of stealing and Leviticus 19:17 shows that we should not hate our brother in the heart.

The conclusion is: Without keeping the ten commandments we cannot be any better than Cain and the assertion by persons who deny this, that "We too yield to the authority of those verses"; or that they walk by the Spirit,is a lie.


There is no love without keeping the Ten Commandments.
All that is just so much hot air I will not take the time to respond.
 
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BobRyan

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Good day,

You wrote:
“Love is the commitment to provide the necessities for well being to those who are unable to do it for themselves just as one provides them for oneself.


I Corinthians 13:
3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

According to the apostle Paul you are still short of something. Any idea what this is?



safswan said:

There is no scripture which says Jesus is our Sabbath rest. This is an invention of men.
You wrote
“And the Trinity?
You do not understand Heb 3:7-4:11.”


There is nothing in Hebrews which says Jesus is our Sabbath rest in my understanding. Could you enlighten me on where it says this?.
Love and the ten commandments are clearly linked in the scriptures see below:




Love And The Ten Commandments


The most surprising and disturbing error among law and Ten Commandments bashers is the failure to understand the relation between love, the law and the Ten Commandments.Some attempt to prove that the word commandment as used in John 14:15, 21; I John 2:3-4; 3:22, 24; 5:2-3; Matthew 22:36-38; I John 3:23; 4:21; II John:5-6, has nothing to do with the ten commandments. They say:

"Clearly none of the commandments cited in the above passages refers to the ten commandments. "

Or claim they walk by the Spirit as if the Spirit of God is opposed to the law/love/ten commandments.

What is Love? How do we love? The very scriptures used in this determination show what it is to love. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

"For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." (John 5:3).

Love is not just a feeling we have but our actions will determine whether or not we love. (Seel John 3:18).

This relationship was seen in the giving of the Ten Commandments and with the law as a whole. Loving God and keeping the Ten Commandments were clearly linked together, even as the commandments were spoken at Sinai. (See Exodus 20:6). When the commandments had been spoken, it was then that God revealed His intention concerning them. It is by having these words in their hearts that the people would love God with all their hearts. (Deuteronomy 6:4-6).

The apostle Paul confirms that, by observing the Ten Commandments, we fulfill the law, and also the portion of the commandments, which concern human-to-human relations, is summarized or comprehended by saying:

"Thou shaft love thy neighbour as thyself." (Romans 13:8-9). N.B. To love, according to God's standards, we must keep his commandments. The command to love our neighbor is a summary of the Ten Commandments, which can also be summarized by saying we should:

"Love the Lord thy God with all thine heart and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." (Deuteronomy 6:5).

The Lord Jesus also taught that the purpose of the law and prophets, including the Ten Commandments, was to teach us how to love. He said:

"On these two commandments hang all the law and prophets." (See Matthew 22:36-40).

Hang - depend upon, that which they enjoin or prescribe.

Hence the law and prophets explain how we show love to God and our neighbours. God did not leave us to decide how to love him but gave us comprehensive instructions about this. He knows it is not in man to guide himself. (Jeremiah 10:23; Romans 7:7).

Note carefully why Cain is considered not to have loved his brother. (I John 3:11-12). He slew him!! i.e. he transgressed, "Thou shalt not kill." Hence, if we are keeping God's commandments about love, we cannot be killing, stealing, lying, committing adultery, dishonouring parents, coveting, taking God's name in vain, having other gods, making images, profaning the Sabbath. N. B. other commands also give further instructions about how the above is to be properly accomplished; eg. Leviticus 19:11-13 shows that to defraud is a part of stealing and Leviticus 19:17 shows that we should not hate our brother in the heart.

The conclusion is: Without keeping the ten commandments we cannot be any better than Cain and the assertion by persons who deny this, that "We too yield to the authority of those verses"; or that they walk by the Spirit,is a lie.


There is no love without keeping the Ten Commandments.
Amen - good points all.

And notice Eph 6:1-2 DOES quote from the TEN directly reminding the NT saints that "Honor your father and mother is still - the first commandment WITH a promise".

Still true to this very day. Paul makes direct appeal to the unit of TEN

No wonder so many non-Bible Sabbath keeping scholars appeal to this SAME irrefutable Bible fact.

No wonder Paul says "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 where the first commandment with a promise in that unit of TEN is "Honor your father and mother."
 
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BobRyan

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I keep every day alike, for the Lord!
Blessings.
Every day dedicated to worship with no secular work or gardening activity in it? Seriously?
Or "every day" for secular work and all sorts of activity - with some time squeezed in for worship?

In any case - thanks for sharing that perspective frankly as you have.
 
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BobRyan

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..to Sunday, or the first day of the week?

Some people claim the Sabbath was changed by the resurrection or say 'I keep Sunday in honor of the Resurrection', or they are told that the Apostles began keeping Sunday as the day of worship after the resurrection, but did they? Did the resurrection somehow make the Sabbath to cease or cause a change in the day of worship?
Well as we both know -- not according to the NT.

So then that is a very good question and the answer is real easy to find .

Thanks for pointing this important detail out.

I look forward to your thread discussion.
 
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Bob S

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reddog said: Some people claim the Sabbath was changed by the resurrection or say 'I keep Sunday in honor of the Resurrection', or they are told that the Apostles began keeping Sunday as the day of worship after the resurrection, but did they? Did the resurrection somehow make the Sabbath to cease or cause a change in the day of worship?
Well as we both know -- not according to the NT.
Yes, we should all know the Sabbath was not changed to Sunday. We all should also know that the Sabbath was never a decree given to the Gentiles. We all should also know that the New Testament has no requirement for the Way (Christianity) to keep any day.

So then that is a very good question and the answer is real easy to find .
Where? Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law. He did not tell us part of the law. And we know while Jesus lived, He didn't change all of the Law, He did make some changes of the commands clearer as in Matt 5:17-48. It was not until His death at Calvary that ALL THE LAWS of the old covenant ceased and Jesus new and better covenant began. Once again, the old covenant with ALL of the commands ceased to be in existence. The new covenant with its new laws began to be taught all mankind, not just the Jews.
Thanks for pointing this important detail out.
Thanks for nothing!
 
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Yes, that's what I was saying :heart:

And this comes to mind as a follow-up passage
The thing is, Sunday has no standing before God as a day of worship, its origin is of another, the deceiver. And to follow him and his mark of authority, has consequences which scripture foretells..
 
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