Does the Bible Support or Oppose Five-Point Calvinism?

[SinnerInTheHands]

Calvinism's TULIP OPENS





Their god is not the God of the Bible. Their jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible. They do not know the Holy Ghost. They have no fear of God. They will preach what appears to be a great teaching sermon - sometimes the material is right. This is just like a parrot that mimics human speech. If the parrot says the words right, he can be understood. But the parrot hasn't a clue what he is talking about. But when they preach, they never give the gospel of Christ. They always leave it out, or openly preach a counterfeit gospel.



Heresy is their middle name. They think they are pre-picked to salvation by their Calvinist god by his divine whim before they are ever planted into their mother's womb. (Because they and almost everyone else does not understand the doctrine of predestination). Somewhere along the way they pridefully declare, "I'm one of the elect." And they have nothing to back that statement up with, except that they made the decision one day that they were pre-picked. Bingo, they decided they were saved, end of discussion. Now they are put to scrutiny by all the other pre-picks and if he measures up to their expectations, then he is accepted into the local congregation. No repentance required, no shed Blood of Christ required, and the Scriptures can be damned except that they reinterpret anything and everything that opposes their perspective.













Matthew 26:28 KJV, "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."



Mark 1:4 KJV, "John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins."



Luke 1:77 KJV, "To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins[.]"



Luke 3:3 KJV, "And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins[.]"



Luke 24:47 KJV, "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."



John 6:47 KJV, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."



Acts 2:38 KJV, "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of [Yahoshua the] Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."



Acts 3:19 KJV, "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of [Yahowah]."



Acts 10:43 KJV, "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."



Romans 1:16-25 KJV, "16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen."



Romans 3:25 KJV, "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God[.]"



Romans 5:8 KJV, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."



Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV, "8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."



Hebrews 9:22 KJV, "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."



Hebrews 10:18 KJV, "Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin."







1. Many have undertaken to critique Calvinism/Reformed theology. This treatise is not meant to replace those teachings, nor to compete with them. This treatise was written to explain, in no uncertain terms, that Calvinism is not Christian, rather it is an antichrist system.



2.a. Some tenets of Calvinism proffered by Calvinist apologists are presented in the acronym TULIP. There is not a single concept in TULIP that is a Christian doctrine or teaching. Not only is there not a single concept in TULIP that is supported by the Bible, but each concept is destroyed by Biblical teachings. To shine light upon and to expose TULIP for the antichrist system that it is, I have renamed it OPENS.



2.b. T = Total Depravity. What this really means is Calvinism teaches the "Original Sin Heresy". The first letter of the new acronym is "O".



2.c. U = Unconditional Election. What this really means is Calvinism teaches the "Pre-picked Heresy". The second letter of the new acronym is "P".



John 6:47 KJV, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."



Acts 3:19 KJV, "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of [Yahowah]."



Acts 10:43 KJV, "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."



2.d. L = Limited Atonement. What this really means is Calvinism teaches the "Exclusivity Heresy". The third letter of the new acronym is "E".



2 Peter 3:9 KJV, "[Yahowah] is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."



2.e. I = Irresistible Grace. What this really means is Calvinism teaches the "No Free Will Heresy". The fourth letter of the new acronym is "N".



John 6:47 KJV, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." Why are we admonished to believe, except that we have a choice. People resist the grace of God all the time - look around.



2.f. P = Preservation of the Saints. What this really means is Calvinism teaches the "Second Time Around Pre-picked Heresy" again. The fifth letter of the new acronym is "S".



You cannot be preserved into something you never had to begin with. If one believes he was pre-picked by God in heaven, before he even left heaven (that thought is heresy too), then that one has not repented of his sin, he has not gone to the foot of the execution stake of Calvary, he is not covered by the shed Blood of Christ.



2.g. So now, instead of TULIP, we have the more descriptive, undisguised OPENS. These renamed heresies now opens the true meaning of Calvinist/Reformed theology. When a tulip fully opens, then it dies.



2.h. Calvinism and Reformed Theology are the same thing. It does not matter which of the many shoots their differing groups and congregations follow from the mother root. Matthew 7:18b KJV, "…neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." The mother root is an antichrist system of theology and opposes the One True God Yahowah and His Son Yahoshua.



3.a. Total Depravity teaches that man is born not with just a sin nature, but born with sin already charged against him. Scripture does not teach that all mankind has inherited Adam and Eve's first sin. Calvinism and some cults, including the Roman Catholic Cult, teach that we do inherit the first sin. That which the Bible teaches about the sin of the fathers is shown in Ezekiel 18:20 KJV, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." (Also, Ezekiel 18:4). There are some Scriptures that proponents of the Original Sin Heresy misuse to support their position. None of their mistaken exegeses explain the direct contradiction to Ezekiel 18:20; nor, do they explain the logical follow up to this heresy. The logical follow up is that if we inherit the original sin, we should inherit all sin committed by our ancestors. Yet, I have not heard anyone propose that false notion.



3.b. Calvinism teaches that we have inherited the original sin, therefore it only logically follows that all babies are born with sin, and if they die before repenting of their inherited sin, then they are logically condemned to hell.



3.c. Some Calvinists teach that dead babies have an out and are not necessarily condemned to hell. Whatever their reasons for this makes no difference. If they teach that babies have an escape hatch (2 Sa 12:23), then they are being scholarly dishonest. Either we have original sin or we do not. There is no inbetween ground. The notion of Total Depravity cannot exist except the original sin heresy be true.



4.a. Unconditional Election teaches that the god of Calvinism is unjust and arbitrary. Without any reason for making his decision, other than a divine whim, their god pre-picks from the foundation of the world, some to election or salvation and some to condemnation. Scripture does not teach this. The Bible teaches that God elects and predestines people according to their future choices that only He can see. 1 Peter 1:2a KJV, "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father[.]" Romans 8:29-30 KJV, "29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."



4.b. The Bible teaches that God has foreknowledge. This divine attribute enables God to foresee the future and the future choices that you and I will make in the corridors of time. Based upon those choices that I will make (whether or not to believe that Yahoshua the Christ has provided a Blood sacrifice and atonement for the washing away of my sin) God then predestines me to salvation if I choose to believe or to condemnation if I reject Christ. John 3:15 KJV, "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."



5. Limited Atonement teaches that the atonement provided by the Calvinist christ is only applicable to the elect. Scripture does not teach this. This god of Calvinism is a puny god in that he has not the ability to atone for the sins of all men. The Bible teaches that Christ's Blood sacrifice was for the sins of all men. Romans 5:6 KJV, "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly." 1 Timothy 4:10 KJV, "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." Hebrews 2:9 KJV, "But we see [Yahoshua], who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."



6. Irresistible Grace teaches that the elect of the Calvinist's god cannot resist the calling and election of this god. Calvinists claim to be compelled to believe and obey. The Bible does not teach this. The Bible teaches that God desires all to come to Him, but that some will resist His grace and will not believe and come. Luke 22:67 KJV, "Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe[.]" 1 Timothy 2:4 KJV, "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." Acts 13:46 KJV, "Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles."



7.a. The Preservation of the Saints teaches that those pre-picked for salvation are guaranteed to keep that salvation. As explained in paragraph four above, being pre-picked to election is a doctrine of Calvinism, it is not a doctrine of the Bible. Therefore, being pre-picked and preserved in that pre-picking is ludicrous. A paper doctrine cannot support itself, much less another doctrine built upon its back.



7.b. God's plan of salvation for all men does not include pre-picking some to salvation based on a blind divine whim. The true gospel of God would be an entire other teaching. The Scriptural support would be lengthy. But it is appropriate to share at this time a few Scriptures regarding the true Gospel of Christ. Ephesians 1:7 KJV, "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace[.]" Colossians 1:4 KJV, "In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins[.]" Hebrews 9:12 KJV, "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."



8.a. Now, with all of this being said about Calvinist/Reformed theology, what is to be said about those who practice this false religion with the mistaken idea that they are pursuing Christianity? I have divided them into three groups.



8.b. One, some, but very few, may actually be Christians. And with all my heart I know that the Holy Ghost will not leave His children inside the halls of this mind trap. I know, because I was once unwittingly involved with Calvinist theology. Christians can be temporarily deceived, but the evidence of their true Christianity can be manifested by their coming out of Calvinism and denouncing it and renouncing their involvement with it. Revelation 18:4 KJV, "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."



8.c. Two, some fully understand that they are involved in an antichrist religion posing as Christian. These have think tanks, plan strategies for infiltration into mainstream Christianity, and actively oppose God. They do this behind the scenes, even hidden from their own followers. I do not have eye witnesses to these think tanks or videos or wiretaps. But for at least fifty-three years I see the evidence by how they operate, how they refuse to be held accountable, and how they refuse to be transparent.



8.d. Three, some are sincerely pursuing a knowledge of God and have, unfortunately, wandered into a Calvinist church. This wandering can happen by the influence of friends, relatives, advertisements, or taking a wrong turn. These have not the Spirit of the Living God indwelling them. They are pursuing God in their own strength, with their own convictions, morals, and preconceived notions about God and religion. They have little hope of being set free without turning to Yahoshua the Christ, repenting of their sins, coming under the Blood, and becoming born again in accordance with John 3:3 KJV, "[Yahoshua] answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." It is said very plainly in this Scripture. You have not the discernment to reject this false religion without being born again: you cannot see the kingdom of God!



9. We welcome constructive input supported by Scriptures from the Bible. Please contact us by our email address rickdmauck@gmail.com. Copyright © 2012 Richard Douglas Mauck and/or Sandra Faye Mauck.

I asked for your Scriptural opinions, not for you to copy-paste a poorly written response that not only misunderstands Calvinism, and the five proofs I offered, but Western Christianity as a whole. Once you formulate your own proofs, I'll respond, but until then, I'm not going to waste my time point-by-point refuting a post that not only is against CF forum rules (as it explicitly and numerously calls Calvinists unchristian) but is also poorly researched and written.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

How could yo say a crude thing like that about my saying that Christ's death alone doesn't save without faith?

You said that Christ's death didn't atone for any sin whatsoever! If Christ's death didn't, then how was His death worth anything?

You literally wrote: "No sin - not unbelief - not murder - NO sin is forgiven by Christ's sacrifice."

This is not only anti-Scriptural but also highly offensive and blasphemous.

The idea that Christ died for the sins of

all men and yet no men are saved in this life until they respond is what you would call Arminian, I suppose.

But Christ didn't die for all men. Such a thing is anti-scriptural, and anti-confessional. You said you've lectured on the WCF, yet such a statement directly contradicts it.

[EDIT: don't know why the quote is split, can't fix it.]

But you accept the idea that that situation is true for the elect - often times until their deathbed.

If you believe in Christ, regardless of whether the born-again experience occurs on the death-bed or in elementary school, regardless of denomination, regardless of time period, you are one of the elect. End of statement.

You have no right to say that it could not be true for the lost for all of eternity.

Where is the Biblical proof for such a statement?

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." [Matthew 7:21]

 

[gordonhooker]

So why respond to this post? Just to say that you've "been there, done that," and assume that everyone's going to know what you mean?

I made a statement - not ask you a question or expect a response... I simply said been there done that and would not want to go there again.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

really when you think about it which is more impressive with regard to "sovereignty:" God decreeing/ordaining all things before they occur so as to accomplish his purpose. OR God accomplishing his ultimate purposes in, through and despite all sinful and unholy things?

"IF GOD predestined, predestinated, predetermined EVERYTHING before time began, or from the beginning of time, then is He now on vacation in the Heavenly Bahamas or somewhere? Because, now follow me here, if He did in fact predetermine everything, there is really no need for Him to watch it all unfold. He no longer has anything to do with us. I mean, seriously, what is the point if it is all set in stone?

Are you insinuating that God merely exists in linear time?

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

Bumped post from 'ConsumedByHisCall'

I came across this post by Kevin Schooley and I like it:

"As much as I disagree with Calvinism as an interpretive scheme for understanding soteriology, there are worse errors to fall into. As an olive branch to my brothers and sisters in Christ, I'd like to offer some valid reasons I can think of to remain within the Calvinist camp.

1. If becoming an Arminian would really be a temptation to boast for you, then please remain a Calvinist.

Arminians are typically accused of holding to a view that allows us to boast, because we chose to receive God's gift when others did not. Now, most people are grateful to receive gifts, and thank those who give them to us. But perhaps you're the type who, on Christmas morning, jumps up after unwrapping presents and starts gloating about the great gifts you were smart enough to receive. Maybe you compare yourself to those who scorn gifts, and brag about how much better you are than they are. If this describes you, then I heartily recommend that you hang on to your Calvinism. It is protecting you against a temptation to vainglory that you evidently would fall into otherwise.

2. If you think that God empowering people to accept or reject Jesus somehow makes Him weak, impotent, or powerless, then you really should continue in your Calvinism.

Most of us consider it a sign of strength and confidence to give someone else the opportunity to accept or reject something--love, a job, a gift, whatever. In God's case, it would be the offer of salvation. Giving us the power to accept or reject that gift shows us that He is sovereign regardless of what our choice is. His deity does not depend on controlling our response. He is God whether we acknowledge Him or not; He just graciously invites us into His family. But if giving us the opportunity to respond would somehow diminish God in your eyes--if God can't be God without predetermining the individual response of each person--then by all means, hold tight to Calvinism.

3. If you actually think that God cannot remain sovereign without dictating the minutia of every event that occurs, then by all means, remain a Calvinist.
Some--not all--Calvinists believe that God's sovereignty necessitates an absolute determinism in which He predetermines every event that has occurred or will occur. We Arminians believe that God remains sovereign--that His reign will be established and His will will be accomplished--despite allowing room for creaturely freedom, or even rebellion against His plan. He is so great that creaturely rebellion against Him cannot possibly have any impact on His final plan--He is so great that He doesn't need to directly control every event in the universe. But if you can't get your head around this--if your view of God is so small that He must micromanage His creation in order to get His will done, then by all means, cling to Calvinism.

4. If you actually believe that accepting a freely-given gift of salvation somehow would make you your own "co-savior," then please don't abandon your Calvinism.

Personally, I can't fathom this. I can't imagine thinking, "Yes, God became flesh and Jesus lived a sinless life and sacrificed Himself, dying a brutal, torturous death, all the while restraining Himself from calling a legion of angels to rescue him; He died and then rose, conquering death and the grave, showed Himself to His disciples and empowered them through the Holy Spirit to share this gospel and pass it down the generations; God did all this--but I get credit too, because I accepted the invitation! I'm my own co-savior!" But since this charge is thrown against Arminians as the "logical consequence" of our soteriology, I can only conclude that that is precisely how many Calvinists would view their own salvation if they adopted the Arminian view. If that's you, then please grab hold of your Calvinism and don't let go.

5. If adopting an Arminian view of salvation would somehow make you really feel that salvation is "man-centered" rather than "God-centered," then for God's sake, hold on to your Calvinism.

If you can take a plan of salvation that was chosen before the foundations of the world by God, provision for that plan made by God, an offer based on that plan made available by God, our own ability to respond positively to it graciously granted to us by God--if you can take this whole thing and somehow make it "man-centered," just because human beings are empowered to accept it and be included, or reject it and exclude themselves--if you don't see how salvation is, from beginning to end, Christ-centered, then whatever you do, please do not abandon the Calvinism that cuts you out of any active participation in the process whatever. Better to think that salvation has nothing to do with you than to believe that somehow you place yourself in the center of the process simply by virtue of your acceptance or rejection of it.
So basically, if Calvinism would make you into the stereotype of an Arminian that you seem to believe us to be, then please don't become an Arminian. You'll only make us look ridiculous."


Blessings,
Charles

 

[Butch5]

Prove it. I offered my proof, please offer yours.

Prove what? I could post the Bible but that wold take quite a few posts. My point was about context. The five points aren't taught anywhere in Scripture. They're supported by proof texts. There are no Scriptures that say man is totally depraved, none that speak of unconditional election, none that speak of limited atonement, none that speak of irresistible grace or perseverance of the saints. All of these doctrines are "INFERRED" from passages of Scriptures then it is claimed that this is what the Bible teaches. Inferences aren't teaching, they're conclusions drawn by a person. Inferences can be correct or incorrect. However, that are not teaching.

 

[outsidethecamp]

You might want to take a look at some other botanicals:

• The Mutant Tulip
• The Daisy That Posed as a TULIP

 

[outsidethecamp]

The truth is somewhere in the middle because Calvinism/Augustinianism is one extreme and Pelagianism and Arminianism is the other extreme. Calvinists believe if you are not Calvinist then you must be Arminianist. There is nothing else. I can quote Calvinists, if you like. But, those are belief systems created by men as they extracted from the Bible, extreme interpretations. Below, we will just see what the Bible says.

One Extreme-------------------------->
Pelagianism states that our willing choice is the determining factor in the participation of our salvation. Pelagianism is seen as extremely humanistic and Arminianism is not as extreme in its humanistic factors (meaning what we do) it does not totally effect our salvation. Evangelicalism also tends to focus on our own actions and performance.

<------------------------Other Extreme
Augustinianism and Calvinism is pretty much the reduction of our being in that fallen humanity is deemed depraved (defective) to the point that they are incapable of responding to the Lord's offer of grace. The meaning of grace is misunderstood as divine determinism. This means that God will sovereignly elect/select some for salvation and others for perdition.

<----------------------------------------------------------Balance---------------------------------------------------------------->

There is the Divine initiative and then.................................... there is Man's response.
GRACE .................................................................................................... FAITH
Eph 2:5,8 "for by grace you have been saved..." -------------- Eph 2:8 "...saved through faith"

God divinely and dynamically extends His grace -------------- Faith is our response to the Divine activity of God to us via His Son, Jesus Christ (Jn 1:17) and by Holy Spirit, not only initially but continually, throughout the Christian life. Faith puts us in a position of receiving. Faith enables us to be receptive to the Holy Spirit.
"As many as received Him.." Jn 1:12
Acts 15:11 "through the grace of the Lord Jesus -------------- “believe on the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved” Act 16:31
Christ we shall be saved,"
Titus 2:11 - “the grace of God has appeared --------------------- “salvation through faith in Christ” II Tim. 3:15
bringing salvation to all men.”
II Tim. 1:9 - “saved us according to His own ------------------ “chosen for salvation...through faith in the truth” II Th 2:13
purpose and grace..”
I Pet. 1:10 - “this salvation, the prophets --------------------- “outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls” 1 Pet 1:9
prophesied of the grace to come

The "Finished work" of Jesus Christ which makes salvation available to ALL men is proven a universal objective by the Word of God. No one is elected to perdition.

• Jn 3:16 - For God so loved the world (ALL are Loved)
• Eph 1:7 - In whom we have redemption (ALL are Redeemed)
• Jn 1:29 - Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (ALL are Forgiven)
• Rom 5:18,19 - "...so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." (ALL are made righteous)
• Rom 5:10,11 - "...we were reconciled to God..." - (ALL have been reconciled)
• Rom 5:18 - "...upon all men unto justification of life." (ALL have been given life)
• Titus 2:11 - "...grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" (ALL are saved)
• Eph 1:3 - "who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ" (ALL are Blessed)
• Jn 12:32 - "...will draw all men unto me." (ALL men drawn to Christ)

All the bulleted scriptures are objective, eternal realities whether a person believes or does not believe.

The one extreme for the above verses would be Universalism. Everyone is predestined to spend eternity in heaven and this is determined solely by God and not dependent on any human response. Towards this same extreme is Determinist theology that indicates ALL humanity (smaller part) is included in the life and ministry of Jesus' humanity which was of a vicarious nature in that all human beings will be incorporated into Him forever and ever.

More on Calvinism
"Particularism" in the processes of salvation is the mark of Calvinism. Particularism deals not generally with mankind at large, but particularly with the individuals who are actually saved. If you deny Particularism you are denying the supernaturalism of salvation, that is, Christianity itself. It is logically the total rejection of Christianity. "ALL qualified", actually means only God's predestined elect. Salvation is not an option for the non-elect.

THE BALANCE
1. Some reject God's grace and do not receive the living Lord Jesus.
2. Human beings have freedom of choice, and the freedom of choice that we are born with has no merit in and of itself regarding automatic eternal blessings.
3. Faith is never a work in the New Testament and neither is it a gift of God. "A measure of faith", has been given to all men.
Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Faith is a response on our part to receive what God is giving us. Faith receives God's divine activity.

4. Either-or - Some will receive Jesus, and some will reject Jesus.

Calvinism pretty much denys that an individual is able to respond in faith to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Evangelicals, on the other hand have a different view of salvation. An individual "gets saved" by their personal choice to receive Jesus, but in saying this to them, they are subtly communicating that men are contributing to their salvation by their own faith-action of assent to facts, raising your hand, walking the aisle and getting your "ticket punched". It could also be reciting a creed, getting baptized, joining a religious organization, promising to keep the Church's rules, going to catechism, etc., etc. None of these things produce regeneration and if you are not regenerated (converted) you are not saved according to the Bible.

Acts 16:30,31 - “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.”
Eph. 2:8,9 - “For by grace you have been saved through faith.”
Rom. 10:8-10 - “...confess with mouth, believe in heart, you will be saved.”
I Cor. 1:21 - “God was well- pleased to save those who believe”
Rom. 5:10 - “...saved by His life”

Regeneration - or conversion is a defining moment in one's life. It is radical!! Not a ceremony or ritual. One is going from spiritual death to spiritual life. This is not done by rituals, reciting of creeds, church membership classes, baptism, et al.

Matt. 18:3 - “Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
Jn. 3:3,7 - “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
I Pt. 1:3 - “...begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,"
Acts 26:18 - “To open their eyes, and to turn them (convert) from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God,"Titus 3:5 - “...saved us by the washing of regeneration...”

The result of conversion is Union with Christ.
II Pt. 1:4 - “partakers of the divine nature”
I Cor. 6:17 - “he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.”
Heb. 3:14 - “partakers of Christ”
Heb. 6:4 - “partakers of the Holy Spirit”

Extremes of Union with Christ are mysticism, pantheism, panentheism, monistic unification of Christ and the Christian to the point where they become one and there is no distinction between them. Let's talk about Union with Christ, later.

I have had to readjust my thinking quite a bit through the years to keep from falling off into the ditch of "isms" rather than taking into account the "full counsel of God". You can see that you really do not need any "isms", and the Word of God and the Spirit of God seem to do just fine.

You don't have to subscribe to Arminianism, Calvinism, Methodism, Lutheranism, Catholicism, etc, etc. You just need to be Christocentric, because that is what the Word of God is.

From Genesis to Revelation, it is the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

 

[fatherjimparker]

Total Depravity

• As a consequence of the Fall, all men are born in bondage to sin, unable to refrain from evil, choose God, or accept the gift of salvation, save by the efficacious and sovereign grace of God.

1) Total depravity: The doctrine of total depravity (also called "total inability") asserts that, as a consequence of the fall of humanity into sin, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures. (The term "total" in this context refers to sin affecting every part of a person, not that every person is as evil as possible.)

The statement that all people are unable to choose to follow God is a denial of man’s free will. Does the Bible teach that man has no free will?

DT 30:19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

JOS 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

PR 8:10 Choose my instruction instead of silver, knowledge rather than choice gold,

ISA 56:4 For this is what the LORD says: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant--

PS 34:11 Come, my children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the LORD. 12 Whoever of you loves life and desires to see many good days, 13 keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking lies. 14 Turn from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it.

EZE 3:27 But when I speak to you, I will open your mouth and you shall say to them, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says.' Whoever will listen let him listen, and whoever will refuse let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house.

MK 16:15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

JN 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

JN 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

JN 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

REV 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

REV 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.


The assumption that is the basis of all these (and more) verses is that man has the freedom to make a choice. Man has free will. The notion that man is incapable of making such a choice is not compatible with the teaching of scripture.

God’s earnest encouragement to choose to serve Him permeates the scriptures. The notion that all mankind is incapable of doing so, that all mankind is “hard wired” to oppose God contradicts the teaching of Scripture.

ISA 1:18 "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.

ISA 1:19 If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land;

ISA 1:20 but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword." For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

This is one of many examples in scripture of how God deals with man; by giving man the freedom to make a choice.

The doctrine of total depravity which teaches that man has no free will is not Biblical.

 

[fatherjimparker]

Unconditional Election

• Also known as double predestination.

Unconditional election - The doctrine of unconditional election asserts that God's choice from eternity of those whom he will bring to himself is not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people. Rather, it is unconditionally grounded in God's mercy alone.


This doctrine is damning of "TULIP" for what is not stated but what is logically necessary.

If salvation is unconditionally grounded in God’s mercy alone, and He does not extend that mercy to all mankind, then damnation is unconditionally grounded in God’s withholding of mercy alone. And that withholding is for no reason apparent to man.

“Proof texts”: RO 9:15-18 "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."

and

RO 9:22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction?


What these verses are supposed to make explicitly clear is that God does not reveal why He elects some for salvation and others for damnation. It’s His choice and we don’t have a need to know. But the only people that the Bible says were doomed for destruction are Judas Iscariot and “the man of lawlessness.”

To the rest of mankind the scripture says, “...whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

It also is supposed to make perfectly clear that salvation does not depend on anything that man does. It’s 100% God’s choice and nothing we do can make a difference. You are either elected for eternal life or elected for eternal damnation.

The logical conclusion to the teaching of Unconditional Election is that the most devout person, having the most virtue, merit and faith ever found among mankind could be damned to hell because God withheld His mercy from him and the most heinous and despicable sinner could be saved because God extended His mercy to him.


But that is not how scripture describes the manner in which God chooses whom he will save and who is condemned.


A few verses after the above “proof texts” Paul, continuing his teaching says:
RO 10:11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Also, if nothing man can do makes any difference then why does God say the following?

ISA 65:2 All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations--

MT 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

Thus God actively attempts to convince people to repent so that they may be saved from the consequences of their sins even when He knows that they are not willing. He patiently attempts to convince them to repent.

AC 17:26 From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27 God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

The Lord acts to cause men to seek him. Why would He do that if He had already decided who would live and who would die? Why would he bother with man at all since nothing they might do would have any influence on whether they would live or die? If God does not respond to man’s plea for salvation then why did Paul tell the men of Athens that God wants men to seek him? Why would God want men to seek Him if it would make no difference? What kind of God acts like that? Surely not a God who is merciful and loving and kind and desires that none should perish but that all would be saved. Not the God of scripture.

RO 10: 9 … if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

“Unconditional Election” proposes that calling on the name of the Lord, trusting in the Lord, and believing in the Lord are all useless exercises. If God has not “elected” you then calling on Him or trusting Him or believing in Him won’t make any difference; you are going to hell.

No wonder so many people hate such a God and choose atheism or agnosticism rather than believing that such a monster, who teases men with promises of salvation if they will just call upon Him and then says “Just kidding! Go to hell!”, could be God.

How could anyone love a God from whom you needed to be saved and from whom there was no possibility salvation if you were not one of His pre-elected pets?

Who could love a God who says, “Love me or I’ll kill you! And I just might kill you anyway!”?

Unconditional Election is a doctrine that describes a malevolent, capricious God not the God of loving kindness whose mercy is new every morning and whose compassion is as great as the heavens and who stated in so many words that it is his will that none should perish but that everyone should come to repentance. That coming to repentance, for which God patiently waits, is an example of man exercising his free will to repent.

There is no mercy in a god who refuses to consider man’s pleas for salvation.

The god of TULIP is not the God of the Bible.

 

[fatherjimparker]

Limited Atonement

• Christ's work on the cross was sufficient for all, but it was the free and gracious will of the Father that the enlivening and saving effectiveness of Jesus' death work itself only on the elect, thereby leading them without fail to salvation [i.e. Christ's death counted only for the elect].

Limited atonement

Also called "particular redemption" or "definite atonement", the doctrine of limited atonement is the teaching that Jesus' substitutionary atonement was definite and certain in its design and accomplishment. The doctrine is driven by the concept of the sovereignty of God in salvation and the Calvinistic understanding of the nature of the atonement. Namely, Calvinists view the atonement as a penal substitution (that is, Jesus was punished in the place of sinners), and since, Calvinists argue, it would be unjust for God to pay the penalty for some people's sins and then still condemn them for those sins, all those whose sins were atoned for must necessarily be saved.

Moreover, since in this scheme God knows precisely who the elect are and since only the elect will be saved, there is no requirement that Christ atone for sins in general, only for those of the elect. Calvinists do not believe, however, that the atonement is limited in its value or power (in other words, God could have elected everyone and used it to atone for them all), but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is designed for some and not all. Hence, Calvinists hold that the atonement is sufficient for all and efficient for the elect.

God’s word addresses this Calvinist double-talk as follows:

RO 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

Thus, justification is available to all men.

How does this justification become “effective” for any particular person?

RO 10: 9 … if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Notice the word “if” at the beginning of the quotation. The word “if” introduces a conditional circumstance. It relates to the reader/hearer that there is a potential outcome if the condition is met and it contains the understanding that the potential outcome will not be realized if the condition is not met.

In this case:

IF a person confesses with his mouth that Jesus is Lord, and

IF a person believes in his heart that God raised him from the dead

THEN (the conditions having been met) the person will be saved.

This statement is followed by two more conditional statements:

(1) Anyone who trusts in the Lord will never be put to shame and

(2) Everyone who calls upon the Lord will be saved.

So if either condition is met (trust in the Lord or call upon the Lord) the person will be saved.

Take note of the words “anyone” and “everyone.” Also note that it does not say “any elect person who trusts in the Lord” or “every elect person who calls upon the Lord.” The Bible’s salvation is “effective” to all mankind.

JN 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

The word “whoever” tells us that eternal life is available to everyone who believes; not an “elect” group whom God has chosen to save. Salvation is open to everyone because the atonement is effective to everyone.

According to the doctrine of Limited Atonement; “Calvinists hold that the atonement is sufficient for all and efficient for the elect.”

This places the responsibility for who is saved and who is not in God’s hands because Calvinism decrees that man has no free will. Therefore, God chooses some for salvation and leaves the rest for damnation. It is 100% God’s choice. Man can do nothing to accept or reject God’s gracious gift of salvation because God has all ready determined whom He will save and whom He will let perish.

If forgiveness of sin and salvation are totally in God’s hands and

If man’s response to God’s gracious gift has no bearing on man’s eternal life and

If all have sinned and stand condemned to death and

God saves some and not others based on nothing that man can discern then

Such a God is unjust and unmerciful; he is a tyrant and a monster.

The good news is that such a God is not found in the Bible. The God Who revealed Himself in scripture gives everyone many chances to be saved.

2PE 3:9 The Lord … is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

So Peter tells us that it is God’s desire that EVERYONE come to repentance. If, as the Calvinists insist, God’s will is irresistible then why doesn’t EVERYONE get saved?

Answer: God’s will is not irresistible when it comes to restoring the relationship with Him that was broken by our sin. He allows man to exercise his free will and to choose to mend that relationship and live.

Because Calvinists deny free will it is necessary that the atonement be limited to the elect. Otherwise, their theology wouldn’t make sense. So the notion that the atonement was not “effective” for those who weren’t “elected” was concocted in order to make the system work. It makes sense if you are content to deny that man was created in God’s image having free will and you ignore the many times in the Bible where people are described as having the capacity to choose.

As in:

JOS 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

That sounds a whole like you get to “elect” yourself.

 

[fatherjimparker]

Irresistible Grace

• God's grace is irresistible, and cannot be denied or fought against.

Irresistible Grace

The doctrine of irresistible grace (also called "efficacious grace") asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith.

The doctrine does not hold that every influence of God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit is able to overcome all resistance and make his influence irresistible and effective. Thus, when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved.

Again, for this doctrine to make sense, it is necessary that man have no free will and that God makes sovereign choices that are contrary to His revealed desire that all mankind be saved and that whoever believes has eternal life.

This teaching assumes the previous teachings that man is totally depraved and has absolutely no capacity or ability to even consider the possibility of repenting and being saved from God Who has decided to kill him. It also assumes that God has only chosen a portion of mankind to be saved and the blood of Jesus is of no benefit to those He has decided to kill.

This teaching requires that we believe that God participates in useless and pointless behavior as stated in the scriptures.

ISA 65:2 All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations--

Why would God bother? If He knows who He “elected” and who He did not then why hold out His hands to them all day long? Did He forget who He elected? Was he just kidding?

How about the following?

ISA 1:18 "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.

19 If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land;

20 but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword." For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

Why would God reason with someone for whom He knows reason is impossible?

Why would God encourage a person to choose between being willing and obedient or resisting and rebellious when the man has absolutely no ability to do anything but what God has programmed him to do? He has no free will to choose either obedience or rebellion.

Is this an example of, divine, sick humor?

Or has God given us the capacity to choose?

 

[fatherjimparker]

Perseverance of the Saints

• Also known as eternal security. Sometimes referred to as "once saved, always saved" though the latter is often distinct.

Perseverance of the saints

Perseverance (or preservation) of the saints is also known as "eternal security." The doctrine asserts that, since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return.

As with all of the doctrines described by “TULIP,” it is based on the heretical doctrine that man has no free will and cannot choose to repent and be reconciled to God and neither can he refuse to accept God’s gracious gift of eternal life if God "elects" him for salvation.

The Biblical teaching is otherwise. While nothing can force man to be separated from God, man can turn away from that relationship. The following verses refute the false notion that “saved” person has no ability to turn away from God and life and back to sin and death.

COL 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now HE HAS RECONCILED YOU BY CHRIST'S PHYSICAL BODY THROUGH DEATH TO PRESENT YOU HOLY IN HIS SIGHT, WITHOUT BLEMISH AND FREE FROM ACCUSATION-- 23 IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

HEB 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 IF THEY FALL AWAY, to be brought back to repentance,

2PE 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins…..10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to MAKE YOUR calling and ELECTION SURE. For IFyou do these things, you will never fall,

2PE 2: 20 IF THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD BY KNOWING OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST AND ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED IN IT AND OVERCOME, THEY ARE WORSE OFF AT THE END THAN THEY WERE AT THE BEGINNING. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

EZE 18:24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

The scripture also teaches that God will reject a “saved” person if he is not obedient.

JN 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,

5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 IF ANYONE DOES NOT REMAIN IN ME, HE IS LIKE A BRANCH THAT IS THROWN AWAY AND WITHERS; SUCH BRANCHES ARE PICKED UP, THROWN INTO THE FIRE AND BURNED.

There are, of course, verses which appear to support the notion of the “preservation of the saints.” But it is necessary to look at all the scriptures which address the issue. The ones posted above refute the teaching. Preservation cannot be a valid doctrine if it is directly refuted by scripture.

Please note that the circular reasoning which proposes that “falling away” is proof that they were never really saved. It is impossible to “fall away” unless you have been in a place from which you could fall; in this case, that “place is called, “being saved.”

 

[CalvinSays]

I hated Calvinism....then I read the Bible.

Simply put, the reason I rejected Calvinism for such a long time is for personal, not Biblical, reasons. I just didn't like the idea of it. The goody feely feeling of going out and choosing God and having Him wrap his arms around me sounded, for some strange reason, much more true and much more Biblically sound than the idea of a sovereign God who expressing his power, sovereignty, and all around God-ness where ever and however He chooses. If I am being honest, many of the arguments against Calvinism that I hear sound very similar to those who try to say that homosexuality is okay by the Bible - effectively sticking fingers in your ears and singing "lalalala" when someone utters the words "shall not inherit the kingdom of God." You can stick fingers in your ears and sing "lalala" as much as you want, but it doesn't get rid of a sovereign God.

It boils down to this: is God sovereign over all creation? If you answered no, then I am sorry to announce that you do not believe in the Christian God but have more ventured into the territory of Moralistic Therapeutic Deism that masquerades as Christianity. If you answered yes, then I am pleased to announce that you, at least in many respects, follow the logic of Calvinism. Let me expand.

If God is sovereign then that means He has control over everything - everything. Every breath you take, every beat of your heart, every soul saved or every soul damned. If there is a single atom that God does not control, that acts according to random chance, then God is not sovereign. (Quantum Mechanics arguments don't work here - what seems random to us doesn't mean it's random to us).

If God is sovereign, then all five points of Calvinism logically fall into place. Predestination is the first to follow: saying that God DOESN'T predestine is saying that God's will must submit to the will of man. Dear heavens I have hardly heard anymore of a large heresy since the days of Marcion who proclaimed that the God of the Old Testament is different than the God of the New Testament. However, there are a vast many out there who unknowingly believe this proposition. If God doesn't predestine, then His will is subject to the will of man. End of story.

Total depravity just follows the idea stated above. Humans are only capable of choosing evil. This is shown to be the case continuously throughout the Bible except for in instances *gasp* that God intervenes. Now, what do we mean by choosing evil? I do not mean that left to our own devices, we will always choose murder instead of life, sex instead of abstinence, so on and so forth. While there are a great many Calvinists out there that would argue this point, and I would actually be inclined to believe them, I am arguing a separate point. I am arguing that humans cannot *choose* their salvation. Whether I get into heaven or not has nothing to do with me and everything to do with Jesus. Without Jesus, I would never make it to heaven. That is why Jesus died on the cross. Remember, the Bible constantly shows us (i.e. the Rich Man and Lazarus) that those who end up in Hell arrive their from their own choosing thus showing that humans are incapable of choosing heaven (so to speak). We are dead at the bottom of the ocean.

For particular redemption, I am going to tap out to people who are a lot better at words than I am:

Did Christ die for the elect only, or for all men?" The answer has been much prejudiced by ambiguous terms, such as "particular atonement," "limited atonement," or "general atonement," "unlimited atonement," "indefinite atonement." What do they mean by atonement? The word (at-one-ment) is used but once in the New Testament (Rom. 5:11), and there it means expressly and exactly reconciliation. This is proved thus: the same Greek word in the next verse, carrying the very same meaning, is translated reconciliation. Now, people continually mix two ideas when they say atonement: One is, that of the expiation for guilt provided in Christ's sacrifice. The other is, the individual reconciliation of a believer with his God, grounded on that sacrifice made by Christ once for all, but actually effectuated only when the sinner believes and by faith. The last is the true meaning of atonement, and in that sense every, atonement (at-one-ment), reconciliation, must be individual, particular, and limited to this sinner who now believes. There have already been just as many atonements as there are true believers in heaven and earth, each one individual.

But sacrifice, expiation, is one— the single, glorious, indivisible act of the divine Redeemer, infinite and inexhaustible in merit. Had there been but one sinner, Seth, elected of God, this whole divine sacrifice would have been needed to expiate his guilt. Had every sinner of Adam's race been elected, the same one sacrifice would be sufficient for all. We must absolutely get rid of the mistake that expiation is an aggregate of gifts to be divided and distributed out, one piece to each receiver, like pieces of money out of a bag to a multitude of paupers. Were the crowd of paupers greater, the bottom of the bag would be reached before every pauper got his alms, and more money would have to be provided. I repeat, this notion is utterly false as applied to Christ's expiation, because it is a divine act. It is indivisible, inexhaustible, sufficient in itself to cover the guilt of all the sins that will ever be committed on earth. This is the blessed sense in which the Apostle John says (1 Jn. 2:2): "Christ is the propitiation (the same word asexpiation) for the sins of the whole world.2

But the question will be pressed, "Is Christ's sacrifice limited by the purpose and design of the Trinity"? The best answer for Presbyterians to make is this: In the purpose and design of the Godhead, Christ's sacrifice was intended to effect just the results, and all the results, which would be found flowing from it in the history of redemption. I say this is exactly the answer for us Presbyterians to make, because we believe in God's universal predestination as certain and efficacious so that the whole final outcome of his plan must be the exact interpretation of what his plan was at first. And this statement the Arminian also is bound to adopt, unless he means to charge God with ignorance, weakness, or fickleness. Search and see.

Well, then, the realized results of Christ's sacrifice are not one, but many and various:

1. It makes a display of God's general benevolence and pity toward all lost sinners, to the glory of his infinite grace. For, blessed be his name, he says, "I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth" (Ezek. 18:32).

2. Christ's sacrifice has certainly purchased for the whole human race a merciful postponement of the doom incurred by our sins, including all the temporal blessings of our earthly life, all the gospel restraints upon human depravity, and the sincere offer of heaven to all. For, but for Christ, man's doom would have followed instantly after his sin, as that of the fallen angels did.

3. Christ's sacrifice, wilfully rejected by men, sets the stubbornness, wickedness, and guilt of their nature in a much stronger light, to the glory of God's final justice.

4. Christ's sacrifice has purchased and provided for the effectual calling of the elect, with all the graces which insure their faith, repentance, justification, perseverance, and glorification. Now, since the sacrifice actually results in all these different consequences, they are all included in Gods design. This view satisfies all those texts quoted against us.

But we cannot admit that Christ died as fully and in the same sense for Judas as he did for Saul of Tarsus. Here we are bound to assert that, while the expiation is infinite, redemption is particular. The irrefragable grounds on which we prove that the redemption is particular are these: From the doctrines of unconditional election, and the covenant of grace. (The argument is one, for the covenant of grace is but one aspect of election.) The Scriptures tell us that those who are to be saved in Christ are a number definitely elected and given to him from eternity to be redeemed by his mediation. How can anything be plainer from this than that there was a purpose in God's expiation, as to them, other than that it was as to the rest of mankind? (See the Scriptures regarding the immutability of God's purposes—Isa. 46:10; 2 Tim. 2:19.)

If God ever intended to save any soul in Christ (and he has a definite intention to save or not to save toward souls), that soul will certainly be saved (Jn. 10:27-28; 6:37-40). Hence, all whom God ever intended to save in Christ will be saved. But some souls will never be saved; therefore some souls God never intended to be saved by Christ's atonement. The strength of this argument can scarcely be overrated. Here it is seen that a limit as to the intention of the expiation must be asserted to rescue God's power, purpose, and wisdom. The same fact is proved by this, that Christ's intercession is limited (see Jn. 17:9, 20). We know that Christ's intercession is always prevalent (Rom. 8:34; Jn. 11:42). If he interceded for all, all would be saved. But all will not be saved. Hence, there are some for whom be does not plead the merit of his expiation. But he is the "same yesterday and to-day and forever" (Heb. 13:8). Hence, there were some for whom, when be made expiation, he did not intend to plead it. Some sinners (i. e., elect) receive from God gifts of conviction, regeneration, faith, persuading and enabling them to embrace Christ, and thus make his expiation effectual to themselves, while other sinners do not, But these graces are a part of the purchased redemption, and bestowed through Christ. Hence his redemption was intended to effect some as it did not others (see above.)

Experience proves the same. A large part of the human race were already in hell before the expiation was made. Another large part never hear of it. But "faith cometh by hearing" (Rom. 10:17), and faith is the condition of its application. Since their condition is determined intentionally by God's providence, it could not be his intention that the expiation should avail for them equally with those who hear and believe. This view is destructive, particularly of the Arminian scheme.

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (Jn. 15:13). But the greater includes the less, whence it follows, that if God the Father and Christ cherished for a given soul the definite electing love which was strong enough to pay the sacrifice of Calvary, it is not credible that this love would then refuse the less costly gifts of effectual calling and sustaining grace. This is the very argument of Romans 5:10 and 8:31-39. This inference would not be conclusive. if drawn merely from the benevolence of God's nature, sometimes called in Scripture "his love," but in every case of his definite, electing love it is demonstrative.

Hence, it is absolutely impossible for us to retain the dogma that Christ in design died equally for all. We are compelled to hold that he died for Peter and Paul in some sense in which he did not for Judas. No consistent mind can hold the Calvinistic creed as to man's total depravity toward God, his inability of will, God's decree, God's immutable attributes of sovereignty and omnipotence over free agents, omniscience and wisdom, and stops short of this conclusion. So much every intelligent opponent admits, and in disputing particular redemption, to this extent at least, he always attacks these connected truths as falling along with the other.

In a word, Christ's work for the elect does not merely put them in a salvable state, but purchases for them a complete and assured salvation. To him who knows the depravity and bondage of his own heart, any less redemption than this would bring no comfort.

Irresistible Grace:

Is God sovereign? Yes. Then His Grace is Irresistible. End of story.

Perseverance of Saints:

Okay, fine, Grace is Irresistible. But can you lose it? Trust me buddy, if you could lose Grace, then you would, if left to your own devices, lose it the millisecond after it had been handed to you.

Feel free to rebut.

 

[Marvin Knox]

You said that Christ's death didn't atone for any sin whatsoever! If Christ's death didn't, then how was His death worth anything?

You literally wrote: "No sin - not unbelief - not murder - NO sin is forgiven by Christ's sacrifice."

This is not only anti-Scriptural but also highly offensive and blasphemous.

I did not say that Christ’s death didn’t atone for any sin whatsoever. I said that no sin is forgiven by Christ’s sacrifice.

Sins are only forgiven by grace through faith. Without faith the sacrifice is of infinite worth to cover all the sins of the world if it is combined with faith.

I didn’t set up the system. God did.

What I said is true. Saying it is in no way degrading the worth of Christ’s sacrifice.

The shedding of Christ’s blood was worth only and all of what God intended it to be worth. God is the one who decides such things.

The worth He assigned to the sacrifice of Christ was that it would cover the sins of all who would believe in faith for it’s efficacy to cover their sins.

Please spare us the indignant posturing. You know exactly what I meant. What I am saying is no more or less than every evangelical non Calvinist believes. It is also exactly what John Calvin Himself taught.

John Calvin was a 4 point Calvinist. I have quoted many times at length from Calvin in the ask a Calvinist section of this forum. The quotes from Calvin are there for you to see if you wish.

You’ve got a lot of nerve telling me and John Calvin that we an anti-Scriptural in our beliefs.

You’ve got even more nerve calling us blasphemous.

You give Calvinism a bad name IMO.

But Christ didn't die for all men. Such a thing is anti-scriptural, and anti-confessional. You said you've lectured on the WCF, yet such a statement directly contradicts it.

It is not anti-scriptural. It is the belief of the vast majority of evangelicals.

It does not contradict the WCF as I have shown many times. It only contradicts how you want to read the statements in the confession.

If you believe in Christ, regardless of whether the born-again experience occurs on the death-bed or in elementary school, regardless of denomination, regardless of time period, you are one of the elect. End of statement.

No one said otherwise. I believe in unconditional election as I have clearly stated.

You seem to hear what you want to hear or likely hear through a hyper Calvinistic earpiece.

Where is the Biblical proof for such a statement?

The proper question is - where is the biblical proof that one cannot exist for eternity in the condition that we all existed in until being justified?

That condition was exactly this:

Christ died for our sins 2000 years ago. We did not believe. We were unjustified before God.

For the “elect” that changes at some point in this life. For the reprobate it never changes.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." [Matthew 7:21]

Is that supposed to mean that John Calvin and I are not saved because we differ somewhat from your rendition of the meaning of limited atonement?

I can't help but wonder what you think will happen to those who don't hold to any of the 5 points.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

I did not say that Christ’s death didn’t atone for any sin whatsoever. I said that no sin is forgiven by Christ’s sacrifice.

Sins are only forgiven by grace through faith. Without faith the sacrifice is of infinite worth to cover all the sins of the world if it is combined with faith.

I didn’t set up the system. God did.

What I said is true. Saying it is in no way degrading the worth of Christ’s sacrifice.

My misunderstanding. As I had originally read your statement, I thought that you were continually admitting that Christ's death had no atoning power whatsoever. This is what I deemed as blasphemous, and what would obviously convey His death as worthless (for if no sins were covered by His gracious death, then how can He be called Lord, God, and Savior?).

I apologize for my mistake.

The shedding of Christ’s blood was worth

only and all of what God intended it to be worth. God is the one who decides such things.

The worth He assigned to the sacrifice of Christ was that it would cover the sins of all who would believe in faith for it’s efficacy to cover their sins.

Yes. Christ's blood was worth only and all of what God intended it to be worth: it was efficient for all, but sufficient only for the elect. If this is not what you are claiming, then I cannot and will not agree with you. To once again quote John Owen: "For whom did Christ die? The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for either: 1) All the sins of all men; 2) All the sins of some men; or 3) Some of the sins of all men. In which case it may be said: 1) If the last be true all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved; 2) That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth; 3) But if the first is the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins? You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

Please spare us the indignant posturing. You know exactly what I meant. What I am saying is no more or less than every evangelical non Calvinist believes. It is also exactly what John Calvin Himself taught.

Please spare me the assumptive generalization. You do not know me or my heart. You also do not know John Calvin, or his heart.

John Calvin was a 4 point Calvinist. I have quoted many times at length from Calvin in the ask a Calvinist section of this forum. The quotes from Calvin are there for you to see if you wish.

Calvin was not a four-point Calvinist. Though it is true that this has been the subject of great theological debate, nothing definitive can be stated either way, as whatever quotes Calvin said can be taken to mean a support either of universal or limited atonement, though modern Reformed theologians tend to side with the latter. Here's an excellent article on the subject: http://www.apuritansmind.com/arminianism/john-calvins-view-of-limited-atonement/

You’ve got a lot of nerve telling me and John Calvin that we an anti-Scriptural in our beliefs.

And yet you haven't provided more than a single Scriptural proof behind your stance, while I've provided many (see posts 2-7).

You’ve got even more nerve calling us blasphemous.

See my first statement.

You give Calvinism a bad name IMO.

IMO you try and distort Scripture and the Confessions to argue what you want them to rather than what they actually say.

It is not anti-scriptural. It is the belief of the vast majority of evangelicals.

And now evangelicals are held in higher regard than God's word?

It does not contradict the WCF as I have shown many times. It only contradicts how you want to read the statements in the confession.

"As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power, through faith, unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only." [WCF, III, 6].

"The Lord Jesus, by his perfect obedience, and sacrifice of himself, which he, through the eternal Spirit, once offered up unto God, hath fully satisfied the justice of his Father; and purchased, not only reconciliation, but an everlasting inheritance in the kingdom of heaven, for all those whom the Father hath given unto him." [WCF, VIII, 5]

You seem to hear what you want to hear or likely hear through a hyper Calvinistic earpiece.

That's the first time I've ever been called that. Thanks for a laugh.

I'm by no means a hyper-Calvinist.

The rest of your argument arose from my misinterpretation of your original point. Apologies, again.

 

[WirSindBettler]

How do I know this won't happen to me?

 

[Marvin Knox]

My misunderstanding. As I had originally read your statement, I thought that you were continually admitting that Christ's death had no atoning power whatsoever. This is what I deemed as blasphemous, and what would obviously convey His death as worthless (for if no sins were covered by His gracious death, then how can He be called Lord, God, and Savior?).

I apologize for my mistake.

In retrospect – it would have been better had I not just said that “Christ’s sacrifice forgives no sin” It would have been better had I added something along the lines of, “unless justifying faith is added to that sacrifice.” I didn’t do it because the several statements that were to follow would address that particular caveat.

Yes. Christ's blood was worth only and all of what God intended it to be worth: it was efficient for all, but sufficient only for the elect. If this is not what you are claiming, then I cannot and will not agree with you. T

I would probably say “sufficient” for all, but “efficient” only for the elect. But hopefully this is just a matter of wording. I believe we are in agreement on this.

To once again quote John Owen: "For whom did Christ die? The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for either: 1) All the sins of all men; 2) All the sins of some men; or 3) Some of the sins of all men. In which case it may be said: 1) If the last be true all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved; 2) That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth; 3) But if the first is the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins? You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

I, and all non Calvinistic evangelicals, would subscribe to number 1 above.

The reason I have objections to “limited atonement” is because of arguments such as those of Owen above. The punishment for the sin of unbelief, just as for the sin of murder or any other sin, is not fully done away with for men who do not believe because such belief is a stipulated requirement for it to be so.

It may seem like a catch 22 – but if you do not believe (add saving faith to the sufficient sacrifice) the sin of unbelief cannot be forgiven.

As have said before – if the limited final effectiveness or even the “intent” is presented as the meaning of limited atonement I would have no problem.

But as Owen’s argument shows – limited atonement means a great deal more to some than what I just said.


I have heard it said for instance that the lost “weren’t even on the radar of God” when Christ lay down his life. They carry on about dying only for “His sheep” and not for the goats etc.

Such statements make God’s grieving statements over the fact that He would have gathered the lost to Himself but they would not allow it --- as being disingenuous at best.

I believe that Christ died for the entire world not just the elect.

Election, as I see it, has to do with to whom He would give the added grace of faith to rather than for whom He died.

Calvin was not a four-point Calvinist. Though it is true that this has been the subject of great theological debate, nothing definitive can be stated either way, as whatever quotes Calvin said can be taken to mean a support either of universal or limited atonement, though modern Reformed theologians tend to side with the latter. Here's an excellent article on the subject: http://www.apuritansmind.com/arminianism/john-calvins-view-of-limited-atonement/

Fair enough.

And yet you haven't provided more than a single Scriptural proof behind your stance, while I've provided many (see posts 2-7).

The possibility of men having had their sins paid for and yet spending eternity in Hell is something that is perfectly logical IMO.

Christ reconciled (or made atonement for) every sinner and every sin in the world as I read it.

He is also pictured in eternity as the lion AND the lamb. Whatever transpired within the Godhead when Christ died has cosmic importance. I believe that carrying the sins of the world is likely an eternal punishment for the Son.

Whether a man is reconciled to the Son in His position as the bearer of God’s absolute wrath or in His position as the holy reigning Lord of the universe – all men have been so reconciled and will show forth their appropriate position in Christ throughout eternity.

Trying hard to not go beyond what is written -- we could say that all men who ever will live will have their sins born eternally by the suffering Christ. The question is whether men will join Him in His suffering or join Him in His reign.

I shouldn’t need to prove the possibility from any particular scriptures. If God doesn’t say it isn’t possible and if the common history of every evangelical Calvinist shows it to be the norm – then it is unwarranted human logic that says that it cannot be.

No matter how well respected any Reformed theologian is in the eyes of the church – they go beyond what is written and apply a little too much human logic to a cosmic problem when they say that men cannot suffer in Hell after Christ died for their sins.

That is exactly the kind of unwarranted human logic stretch forth by Owen.

And now evangelicals are held in higher regard than God's word?"

That is not my position.

My position is that “most” evangelicals are right in their doctrine concerning how the work of atonement is applied.

As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power, through faith, unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only." [WCF, III, 6].

"The Lord Jesus, by his perfect obedience, and sacrifice of himself, which he, through the eternal Spirit, once offered up unto God, hath fully satisfied the justice of his Father; and purchased, not only reconciliation, but an everlasting inheritance in the kingdom of heaven, for all those whom the Father hath given unto him." [WCF, VIII, 5]

I agree with these sections of this particular confession.

I see nothing here that goes against anything I have ever taught.

If I didn’t believe in predestination and election there would be conflict. But I am not one who denies those doctrines - as I have said.

The rest of your argument arose from my misinterpretation of your original point. Apologies, again.

Apologies accepted.

Please accept my apologies for anything I said because of my weakness to impulses.

IMO your future time would be better spent arguing with those here who deny all or most of the 5 points than with a Reformed theologian who holds to at least 4 and ½ points.

Good luck with that.

 

[NCTPremill]

The only alternative to Calvinism is the notion that salvation is ultimately by our own will or decision. To me that borders on heresy and very unscriptural. God does not do 99% of the work of redemption and that 1% is left for me to do which finally determines whether I receive salvation or not.

 

[rnmomof7]

NOTE: IF YOU'RE GOING TO VOTE "OPPOSE" PLEASE EXPLAIN YOUR SCRIPTURAL REASONING.

I originally opened this thread in the wrong forum, but would like to reopen it here.

After a bit of a discussion on the topic of OSAS, I want to ask a simple question: do the canonical 66 books of Scripture support or oppose Five-Point Calvinism? What Scriptural proof is there?

Below is basic Scriptural evidence for each of the five points of Calvinism. I would love other thoughts and opinions [including opposition].

Reminder: The five points of Calvinism can be summarized by the acronym TULIP.

Total Depravity

• As a consequence of the Fall, all men are born in bondage to sin, unable to refrain from evil, choose God, or accept the gift of salvation, save by the efficacious and sovereign grace of God.

Unconditional Election

• Also known as double predestination.

Limited Atonement

• Christ's work on the cross was sufficient for all, but it was the free and gracious will of the Father that the enlivening and saving effectiveness of Jesus' death work itself only on the elect, thereby leading them without fail to salvation [i.e. Christ's death counted only for the elect].

Irresistible Grace

• God's grace is irresistible, and cannot be denied or fought against.

Perseverance of the Saints

• Also known as eternal security. Sometimes referred to as "once saved, always saved" though the latter is often distinct.