Does Science Agree With the Bible?

[Joshua_Verum]

Yes, for although the Bible is not a science textbook, it is accurate when it mentions matters of science. Consider some examples showing that science and the Bible agree and that the Bible contains scientific facts that differed greatly from the beliefs of many people living at the time it was written.

• The universe had a beginning. (Genesis 1:1) In contrast, many ancient myths describe the universe, not as being created, but as being organized from existing chaos. The Babylonians believed that the gods that gave birth to the universe came from two oceans. Other legends say that the universe came from a giant egg.
  
  
• The universe is governed day-to-day by rational natural laws, not by the whims of deities. (Job 38:33; Jeremiah 33:25) Myths from around the world teach that humans are helpless before the unpredictable and sometimes merciless acts of the gods.
  
  
• The earth is suspended in empty space. (Job 26:7) Many ancient peoples believed that the world was a flat disk supported by a giant or an animal, such as a buffalo or a turtle.
  
  
• Rivers and springs are fed by water that has evaporated from the oceans and other sources and then has fallen back to earth as rain, snow, or hail. (Job 36:27, 28; Ecclesiastes 1:7; Isaiah 55:10; Amos 9:6) The ancient Greeks thought that rivers were fed by underground ocean water, and this idea persisted into the 18th century.
  
  
• The mountains rise and fall, and today’s mountains were once under the ocean. (Psalm 104:6, 8) In contrast, several myths say that the mountains were created in their current form by the gods.
  
  
• Sanitary practices protect health. The Law given to the nation of Israel included regulations for washing after touching a dead body, quarantining those with infectious disease, and disposing of human waste safely. (Leviticus 11:28; 13:1-5; Deuteronomy 23:13) By contrast, one of the Egyptian remedies in use when these commands were given called for applying to an open wound a mixture that included human excrement.
  

Are there scientific errors in the Bible?
A reasonable examination of the Bible shows the answer to be no. Here are some common misconceptions about the scientific accuracy of the Bible:

Myth: The Bible says that the universe was created in six 24-hour days.

Fact: According to the Bible, God created the universe in the indefinite past. (Genesis 1:1) Also, the days of creation described in chapter 1 of Genesis were epochs whose length is not specified. In fact, the entire period during which earth and heaven were made is also called a “day.”—Genesis 2:4.

Myth: The Bible says that vegetation was created before the sun existed to support photosynthesis.—Genesis 1:11, 16.

Fact: The Bible shows that the sun, one of the stars that make up “the heavens,” was created before vegetation. (Genesis 1:1) Diffused light from the sun reached the earth’s surface during the first “day,” or epoch, of creation. As the atmosphere cleared, by the third “day” of creation, the light was strong enough to support photosynthesis. (Genesis 1:3-5,12, 13) Only later did the sun become distinctly visible from the surface of the earth.—Genesis 1:16.

Myth: The Bible says that the sun revolves around the earth.

Fact: Ecclesiastes 1:5 says: “The sun rises, and the sun sets; then it hurries back to the place where it rises again.” However, this statement merely describes the apparent motion of the sun as viewed from the earth. Even today, a person can use the words “sunrise” and “sunset,” yet he knows that the earth revolves around the sun.

Myth: The Bible says that the earth is flat.

Fact: The Bible uses the phrase “the ends of the earth” to mean “the most distant part of the earth”; this does not imply that the earth is flat or that it has an edge. (Acts 1:8; footnote) Likewise, the expression “the four corners of the earth” is a figure of speech referring to the entire surface of the earth; today a person might use the four points of the compass as a similar metaphor.—Isaiah 11:12; Luke 13:29.

Myth: The Bible says that the circumference of a circle is exactly three times its diameter, but the correct value is pi (π), or about 3.1416.

Fact: The measurements of “the Sea of cast metal” given at 1 Kings 7:23 and 2 Chronicles 4:2 indicate that it had a diameter of 10 cubits and that “it took a measuring line 30 cubits long to encircle it.” These dimensions might have been merely the nearest round numbers. It is also possible that the circumference and diameter represented inner and outer measurements of the basin respectively.

 

[lesliedellow]

If there is one thing militant atheists and creationists agree on, it is that the Bible is a science text book. The only difference between them is that the former try to argue that it is full of errors, and the latter that it contains no errors.

They are both operating upon a fundamentally flawed premise.

 

[dad]

Myth: The Bible says that the universe was created in six 24-hour days.

Fact: According to the Bible, God created the universe in the indefinite past. (Genesis 1:1) Also, the days of creation described in chapter 1 of Genesis were epochs whose length is not specified. In fact, the entire period during which earth and heaven were made is also called a “day.”—Genesis 2:4.

False. When something is created that means it comes into existence and starts to be. After God created...it was there. Not before.

The periods are given in chapter one, and the day spoken of in chapter two is about those days. The mornings and evenings were also given.

Myth: The Bible says that vegetation was created before the sun existed to support photosynthesis.—Genesis 1:11, 16.

Fact: The Bible shows that the sun, one of the stars that make up “the heavens,” was created before vegetation. (Genesis 1:1) Diffused light from the sun reached the earth’s surface during the first “day,” or epoch, of creation.

False. You seems to assume all light originated with the sun. That is not fact, but speculation. The sun was created after plants.

 

[The Cadet]

The earth is suspended in empty space. (Job 26:7) Many ancient peoples believed that the world was a flat disk supported by a giant or an animal, such as a buffalo or a turtle.

Just to give one example of the many "creative" readings here: you're claiming that this is scientifically accurate, and it literally talks about "stretching the sky". Wat. Not to mention that the earth is not "suspended" in space in any meaningful way.

Meanwhile, the bible teaches that humans were created ex nihilo by a deity. It teaches that God could "stop the sun in the sky". It teaches at numerous points that the earth is flat:

Fact: The Bible uses the phrase “the ends of the earth” to mean “the most distant part of the earth”; this does not imply that the earth is flat or that it has an edge. (Acts 1:8; footnote) Likewise, the expression “the four corners of the earth” is a figure of speech referring to the entire surface of the earth; today a person might use the four points of the compass as a similar metaphor.—Isaiah 11:12; Luke 13:29.

Even beyond talking about the ends of the earth, the four corners of the earth, the fact is that in every situation where the bible makes reference to the shape of the earth, the shape it describes is flat. Daniel 4:10-11 says the king "saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth...reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds". Matthew 4:8 says "Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world [cosmos] in their glory". Revelation 1:7: "Behold, he is coming with the clouds! Every eye shall see him..." None of these are possible on a round earth. Isaiah 40:22 speaks of "the circle of the earth", but the hebraic word used clearly implies a flat circle, not a sphere. Then there's the (non-canonical) book of Enoch, which was explicitly meant to teach, and clearly describes a flat earth.The bible is, from start to finish, a flat-earth book.

 

[katerinah1947]

Just to give one example of the many "creative" readings here: you're claiming that this is scientifically accurate, and it literally talks about "stretching the sky". Wat. Not to mention that the earth is not "suspended" in space in any meaningful way.

Meanwhile, the bible teaches that humans were created ex nihilo by a deity. It teaches that God could "stop the sun in the sky". It teaches at numerous points that the earth is flat:



Even beyond talking about the ends of the earth, the four corners of the earth, the fact is that in every situation where the bible makes reference to the shape of the earth, the shape it describes is flat. Daniel 4:10-11 says the king "saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth...reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds". Matthew 4:8 says "Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world [cosmos] in their glory". Revelation 1:7: "Behold, he is coming with the clouds! Every eye shall see him..." None of these are possible on a round earth. Isaiah 40:22 speaks of "the circle of the earth", but the hebraic word used clearly implies a flat circle, not a sphere. Then there's the (non-canonical) book of Enoch, which was explicitly meant to teach, and clearly describes a flat earth.The bible is, from start to finish, a flat-earth book.

Hi,

Think a little deeper then. Even slightly shallow thinking, leads to no solution to a problem sometimes.

LOVE,

 

[lesliedellow]

Just to give one example of the many "creative" readings here: you're claiming that this is scientifically accurate, and it literally talks about "stretching the sky". Wat. Not to mention that the earth is not "suspended" in space in any meaningful way.

Meanwhile, the bible teaches that humans were created ex nihilo by a deity. It teaches that God could "stop the sun in the sky". It teaches at numerous points that the earth is flat:



Even beyond talking about the ends of the earth, the four corners of the earth, the fact is that in every situation where the bible makes reference to the shape of the earth, the shape it describes is flat. Daniel 4:10-11 says the king "saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth...reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds". Matthew 4:8 says "Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world [cosmos] in their glory". Revelation 1:7: "Behold, he is coming with the clouds! Every eye shall see him..." None of these are possible on a round earth. Isaiah 40:22 speaks of "the circle of the earth", but the hebraic word used clearly implies a flat circle, not a sphere. Then there's the (non-canonical) book of Enoch, which was explicitly meant to teach, and clearly describes a flat earth.The bible is, from start to finish, a flat-earth book.

Is it only when they are reading the Bible that atheists are unable to recognise figures of speech? It certainly seems to be so.

 

[katerinah1947]

Yes, for although the Bible is not a science textbook, it is accurate when it mentions matters of science. Consider some examples showing that science and the Bible agree and that the Bible contains scientific facts that differed greatly from the beliefs of many people living at the time it was written.

• The universe had a beginning. (Genesis 1:1) In contrast, many ancient myths describe the universe, not as being created, but as being organized from existing chaos. The Babylonians believed that the gods that gave birth to the universe came from two oceans. Other legends say that the universe came from a giant egg.
  
  
• The universe is governed day-to-day by rational natural laws, not by the whims of deities. (Job 38:33; Jeremiah 33:25) Myths from around the world teach that humans are helpless before the unpredictable and sometimes merciless acts of the gods.
  
  
• The earth is suspended in empty space. (Job 26:7) Many ancient peoples believed that the world was a flat disk supported by a giant or an animal, such as a buffalo or a turtle.
  
  
• Rivers and springs are fed by water that has evaporated from the oceans and other sources and then has fallen back to earth as rain, snow, or hail. (Job 36:27, 28; Ecclesiastes 1:7; Isaiah 55:10; Amos 9:6) The ancient Greeks thought that rivers were fed by underground ocean water, and this idea persisted into the 18th century.
  
  
• The mountains rise and fall, and today’s mountains were once under the ocean. (Psalm 104:6, 8) In contrast, several myths say that the mountains were created in their current form by the gods.
  
  
• Sanitary practices protect health. The Law given to the nation of Israel included regulations for washing after touching a dead body, quarantining those with infectious disease, and disposing of human waste safely. (Leviticus 11:28; 13:1-5; Deuteronomy 23:13) By contrast, one of the Egyptian remedies in use when these commands were given called for applying to an open wound a mixture that included human excrement.

Are there scientific errors in the Bible?
A reasonable examination of the Bible shows the answer to be no. Here are some common misconceptions about the scientific accuracy of the Bible:

Myth: The Bible says that the universe was created in six 24-hour days.

Fact: According to the Bible, God created the universe in the indefinite past. (Genesis 1:1) Also, the days of creation described in chapter 1 of Genesis were epochs whose length is not specified. In fact, the entire period during which earth and heaven were made is also called a “day.”—Genesis 2:4.

Myth: The Bible says that vegetation was created before the sun existed to support photosynthesis.—Genesis 1:11, 16.

Fact: The Bible shows that the sun, one of the stars that make up “the heavens,” was created before vegetation. (Genesis 1:1) Diffused light from the sun reached the earth’s surface during the first “day,” or epoch, of creation. As the atmosphere cleared, by the third “day” of creation, the light was strong enough to support photosynthesis. (Genesis 1:3-5,12, 13) Only later did the sun become distinctly visible from the surface of the earth.—Genesis 1:16.

Myth: The Bible says that the sun revolves around the earth.

Fact: Ecclesiastes 1:5 says: “The sun rises, and the sun sets; then it hurries back to the place where it rises again.” However, this statement merely describes the apparent motion of the sun as viewed from the earth. Even today, a person can use the words “sunrise” and “sunset,” yet he knows that the earth revolves around the sun.

Myth: The Bible says that the earth is flat.

Fact: The Bible uses the phrase “the ends of the earth” to mean “the most distant part of the earth”; this does not imply that the earth is flat or that it has an edge. (Acts 1:8; footnote) Likewise, the expression “the four corners of the earth” is a figure of speech referring to the entire surface of the earth; today a person might use the four points of the compass as a similar metaphor.—Isaiah 11:12; Luke 13:29.

Myth: The Bible says that the circumference of a circle is exactly three times its diameter, but the correct value is pi (π), or about 3.1416.

Fact: The measurements of “the Sea of cast metal” given at 1 Kings 7:23 and 2 Chronicles 4:2 indicate that it had a diameter of 10 cubits and that “it took a measuring line 30 cubits long to encircle it.” These dimensions might have been merely the nearest round numbers. It is also possible that the circumference and diameter represented inner and outer measurements of the basin respectively.

Hi,

Some of your ideas are correct.

LOVE,

 

[The Cadet]

Is it only when they are reading the Bible that atheists are unable to recognise figures of speech? It certainly seems to be so.

Oh, so you know which passages are to be taken literally, and which are meant to be figures of speech? Maybe you could help out the OP; he seems to think that "hanging the earth upon nothing" is not a figure of speech. It seems trivially easy to just shrug everything off as just a figure of speech when it's convenient, and by doing so only count the hits, and ignore the misses. That doesn't sound reasonable.

Also, let's not forget the one that I think we can all agree is not a figure of speech: the global flood that supposedly happened some 4,000 years ago. The global flood that runs completely contrary to all available evidence.

 

[katerinah1947]

If there is one thing militant atheists and creationists agree on, it is that the Bible is a science text book. The only difference between them is that the former try to argue that it is full of errors, and the latter that it contains no errors.

They are both operating upon a fundamentally flawed premise.

Hi,

Many people decide before. Then they support whatever their decision was.
Militants use words usually to defend what their decision was, no matter whether the decision was correct or not.
Militants exist for all causes it seems. There are militants who are supposedly on the side of God, Also.

Nice observation of yours.

A thought though. Militants may not have the ability to be non militants, as they are followers, and followers are good also.

The problem stems possibly, from loving the lie, in teases.

Loving the lie, is not hating the lie. Teasing, and telling jokes, nice ones is fun. A lie is needed to tell a joke.

A lie is needed for each tease.

How can a person know if the above words are true?

Test them. Give up all forms of teasing, because of God.

Wait, and see what you learn, if you can stay employed while doing that.

If you learn the above, truly learn that, then you will know, by what tool, the world is kept in the mess that it is in.

LOVE,

 

[lesliedellow]

Oh, so you know which passages are to be taken literally, and which are meant to be figures of speech?

It is true that fundamentalists can be as hopeless as atheists when it comes to crass literalness, but they are both pretty hopeless. I can certainly recognise figures of speech which are still in use today, such as ends of the Earth.

 

[The Cadet]

It is true that fundamentalists can be as hopeless as atheists when it comes to crass literalness, but they are both pretty hopeless. I can certainly recognise figures of speech which are still in use today, such as ends of the Earth.

So is every reference to the earth being flat or the heavens being in a "firmament" or tent above the earth figurative as well? I mean, every single time anything makes reference to the earth being flat, it could be a figure of speech, but I'd say such a consistent pattern makes the issue pretty clear. And is "all the kingdoms of the earth" also a figure of speech? Does he just mean "most of them"? And what of the book of Enoch?

Of course, it's a pretty moot point when it comes to the thread, because I don't think anyone could argue that the flood of noah is meant as a metaphor, and that definitely didn't happen.

 

[JackRT]

Modern or ancient, every culture operates within a certain cosmology or understanding of the universe. This cosmology sets the context of how a people understand their world and their place in it. With very few exceptions our modern day cosmology is shaped by the scientific discoveries of the past 500 years. Some of these discoveries have greatly upset religious understandings and it sometimes takes centuries to reconcile the differences. However, since we live in a culture that has been greatly shaped by the bible and Christian beliefs, it is worthwhile to ask about biblical cosmology.

The biblical understanding of the universe is much the same as that of the surrounding cultures in the ancient Middle East at the time when it was written. Unfortunately, nowhere does the bible attempt to present a comprehensive cosmology, so we are forced to rely upon individual passages and to attempt to understand them in the light of their culture and their history. To begin with, biblical cosmology can be characterized as a three-tiered universe. This strange phrase needs some explanation to make the concept clearer.

First, the surface of the earth is circular and flat except for geographical features like hills and valleys. This of course was the belief of the Sumerians. To these people it was theoretically possible to go high enough to see the entire earth, or to envision a tree tall enough that it could be seen from everywhere on the earth's surface, or even to build a tower to reach the sky. The sky was thought of as a solid bowl, called the firmament, that was upended over the circular earth to enclose a volume in the shape of a hemisphere. I should add that there are some bible verses that speak of the four corners of the earth. This was the view of the Babylonians. This would make the firmament look more like a tent than a bowl. The lights of the sky (sun, moon, planets and stars) were inside the firmament and were very much smaller than we presently understand. In fact they were very much smaller than the earth itself. The mechanism by which these celestial objects moved about is not really explained. The noncanonical Book of Enoch (mentioned in the bible as authoritive and part of the canon of Ethiopian Christians) speaks of gates in the east and west for the sun and the moon to enter and leave. Enoch also suggests that their movements are caused by winds.

What I have just described is the middle tier of the three. Above the firmament are waters. This region is described as heaven, the abode of God and the angels. There were also gates in the firmament to permit water to enter as rain. Below the earth are also waters. This region is described as sheol or hell. There were also gates in the earth to permit water to spring up from below. This three level universe is variously described as either hung on nothing or supported by pillars. Storehouses are also envisioned in heaven for the snow and hail.

How should a of Christian today react to this biblical cosmology? The vast majority of what might be described as 'mainline' Christians are actually quite comfortable with this seeming dichotomy. They recognize that the bible is the product of a relatively unsophisticated people with an entirely pre-scientific understanding of nature, who used poetic or metaphorical language to convey their spiritual understandings. On the other hand there is the minority point of view of those Christians who regard the bible to be inerrant and to be understood literally. This group has been forced into extreme apologetic efforts in order to reconcile the bible with modern scientific understandings.

Speaking personally, I find these apologetic attempts to be rather inventive and very strained. I believe that if the scripture writers and early target audience were to read these apologetics, they would find them extremely puzzling and entirely foreign. This is not to say that they were not intelligent people or not keen observers of nature but rather that that they lacked the intellectual basis to form scientific hypotheses and even the instrumentation to gather accurate data --- all that came about some 2,000 years later.

Isaiah 11:12And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)

Revelation 7:1And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)

Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

Jeremiah 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV)

Daniel 4:11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

Psalm 104:5 "He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved."(NIV)

Psalm 93:1"The LORD reigns, he is robed in majesty; the LORD is robed in majesty and is armed with strength. The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved." (NIV)

Psalm 96:10 "Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns." The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity." (NIV)

Ecclesiastes 1:5 "The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises." (NIV)

Isaiah 40:22 "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in." (NIV)

Job 9:6 He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. (NIV)

Job 26:11 The pillars of the heavens quake, aghast at his rebuke. (NIV)

Job 38:22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail," (NIV)

Amos 9:6 The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens and has founded His VAULTED DOME over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out on the face of the earth, The LORD is His name. (NASB)

The biblical flat earth cosmology persisted into New Testament times. However by the mid second century Christianity had largely lost its Jewish roots and understandings and had become a gentile Greek speaking movement. Of course the Greeks knew that the earth was a sphere thanks to Eratosthenes who actually was able to calculate the circumference around 240 BC. This knowledge gradually percolated into Jewish and Christian thought especially after Ptolemy introduced his cosmology in the mid second century. The earth became the center of the universe with the moon and then the sun and then the planets, with complicated epicycles, and then the “fixed” stars all in orbit around it. This was the cosmology accepted by Christianity until the revolution of Copernicus, Kepler. Galileo and Newton. This was resisted by Christianity largely on the basis that the earth was not the center of God’s creation. In a relatively short time even this scientific insight was not only accepted but accepted to the extent that the biblical cosmology of a flat earth was rejected. The flat earth was not only rejected but ridiculous arguments were even invented to suggest that the bible was not even suggesting a flat earth at all. Such, all too often, is the way some Christians react to new understandings and insights.

Even having said all this, the belief in a flat earth persisted for a very long time, even in educated circles, as is evidenced in this comment by Ferdinand Magellan, the first person to circumnavigate the globe: “The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church.”It took time but the modern cosmology took root in society at large, so much so that some Christians even return to the bible and attempt to reinterpret it in such a way as to “prove” that it was speaking of a spherical earth orbiting the sun all along.

 

[lesliedellow]

So is every reference to the earth being flat or the heavens being in a "firmament" or tent above the earth figurative as well?

Without looking at every reference, I wouldn't like to say.

And is "All the kingdoms of the Earth" also a figure of speech?

I would say so. Words like "all" and "everybody" get used pretty loosely, both then and now.

And what of the book of Enoch?

What about the Book of Enoch?

 

[paul becke]

The quotes below are interesting, as is the link at the bottom :

Leading NASA scientist (physics, astronomy and cosmology), Robert Jastrow : "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."


"The best data we have [concerning the Big Bang] are exactly what I would have predicted, had I nothing to go on but the five books of Moses, the Psalms, the bible as a whole." Arno Penzias, astrophysicist, Nobel laureate and co-discoverer with Robert Wilson of the cosmic background radiation postulated by Georges Lemaitre, Belgian Catholic priest.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/quotes.html

 

[pat34lee]

Also, let's not forget the one that I think we can all agree is not a figure of speech: the global flood that supposedly happened some 4,000 years ago. The global flood that runs completely contrary to all available evidence.

You mean the flood whose evidence is everywhere and yet denied
by those with a long age earth agenda?

 

[Joshua Hale]

In my opinion, science does, in fact, agree with the Holy Scriptures. Atheistic scientists have twisted the ideas stated by science to support their agenda. Whilst I am unsure how quickly, precisely, the Earth and its surroundings were created, I do know that the universe was designed by and is continually watched over by an intelligent being. God, with Christ the Pantocrator.

 

[dad]

It is true that fundamentalists can be as hopeless as atheists when it comes to crass literalness, but they are both pretty hopeless. I can certainly recognise figures of speech which are still in use today, such as ends of the Earth.

Either we literally believe or not.

 

[dad]

Modern or ancient, every culture operates within a certain cosmology or understanding of the universe. This cosmology sets the context of how a people understand their world and their place in it. With very few exceptions our modern day cosmology is shaped by the scientific discoveries of the past 500 years. Some of these discoveries have greatly upset religious understandings ...

False. No belief was upset. The beliefs that are science simply got away with a fraud and masquerade for awhile. The so called discoveries you cite are belief based.

 

[bhsmte]

Anyone else notice a trend with posters that have "joshua" in their handle?

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi,

Proverbs 9:12

12 If you are wise, you are wise for yourself;
if you scoff, you alone will bear it.

LOVE,