Does salvation depend on wether we give up everything for God?

[wr2]

Recently I heard the story of the person who started the vineyard churches. I don't remember his name right now but he was a successful musician close to a record deal when he beacem a christian and then he writes in his book that he suddenly thought that God might want him to give up his profession and that he got very angry about this and thought he cannot do it but then he did it and since he had not learned anything started working in a factory where he cleaned dirty oil cans. I found this really depressing. I mean this gives me the impression that God wants to take things from people simply for the sake of taking it as if God is up there waiting to find something which christians enjoy or which they are good at in order to take it away from them. What do you think about this?
I ask myself if this guy was a good musician why did he not simply start a good christian band? Why did he have to work in a factory under awful conditions?
And do you think that if a person in such a situation wants to get saved but at the same time does not want to quit playing secular music that such a person cannot be saved unless she gives up whatever she thinks God wants her to give up?

What do you do for example if you're a worrier and then always fear that God might want you to quit whatever you enjoy? Then this would mean that you better directly quit everything because this is the only way to prove that you'd really give it up. The only way to really find out if you would give up something for God would be giving it up and this means you would have to give up everything because if you don't then you also could never know if you would have given it up.
Imagine you have a hobby or a job which totally makes you happy and then one day you get the thought what if God wants me to give this up then how can you ever find peace again and settle this issue with such a thought chasing you?

 

[cubinity]

Romans 14:14 - "I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean."

This says to me that the person in your example did what was necessary for him to feel okay with his own relationship with God. From the rest of your post, I get the impression you would not feel okay following suit, so don't. The shock for most believers is that life-lessons are personal, and not to be automatically universalized.

 

[wr2]

But Jesus told this story in the bible of the man who found a treasure and then gave up everything else. When I read this then it always sounds to me like when you're a christian then you are supposed to forsake everything else and if you don't then this will somehow have negative consequences and you get a smaller reward or something. In the past when I had some things which I enjoyed I always feeled guilty about them and thought that God is most likely jealous and wants me to give them up. Imagine you start something which you plan on doing continually like a hobby then it wouldn't make sense to simply do it and then think if God one day tells me to stop then I'll stop because then all the time you invested in it was wasted. This means that you needed to find out directly in the beginning if God doesn't want it so that you don't waste any time but how shall you find out if God wants you to quit something or not?

 

[ThatWhichIsnt]

Salvation doesn't depend on anything we do. If we had to do anything to get it, it would be a work, and we would be able to boast. Salvation is a gift from God. If we are truly saved we will have good fruits, since, "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son" (romans 8:29).

 

[cubinity]

But Jesus told this story in the bible of the man who found a treasure and then gave up everything else. When I read this then it always sounds to me like when you're a christian then you are supposed to forsake everything else

Read the story again. Is Jesus saying you are SUPPOSED TO feel this way? Is He instructing, or simply describing? Is He setting a standard, or celebrating a realistic reaction? Does He impose a universal principle to this story, or simply let it hang in the hearts of the hearer to let them decide what kind of reaction they will have to it?

and if you don't then this will somehow have negative consequences and you get a smaller reward or something.

Where in the story does it ever say that the man avoids any kind of negative consequences or faces a smaller reward if he behaves differently?

In the past when I had some things which I enjoyed I always feeled guilty about them and thought that God is most likely jealous and wants me to give them up.

Your guilt comes from you, not God.
If God wanted you to give something up, would imposing guilt on your heart really be the most effective way to get you to do it?

Imagine you start something which you plan on doing continually like a hobby then it wouldn't make sense to simply do it and then think if God one day tells me to stop then I'll stop because then all the time you invested in it was wasted. This means that you needed to find out directly in the beginning if God doesn't want it so that you don't waste any time but how shall you find out if God wants you to quit something or not?

If I chose to do something enjoyable because of its intrinsic value, then how would giving it up render all my time doing it a waste? Wasn't the time doing it valuable because of the joy it brought to my life?
If I didn't do things today because I will eventually end up not doing them in the future, then I would lead a pretty boring life, don't you think?
Rather, just do what brings you joy to do, work on overcoming the guilt, and love your life. In my opinion, that is exactly what God wants me to do, so I'm doing it full-heartedly.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

You can't do anything to earn your way into the Kingdom of God. You struggle with your faith and you do what you can to be Christ to those around you. If you can give up everything and be a Mother Theresa-esque sort of person, great. If that is too much for you, God is merciful, and you are still "working out your salvation" as long as you continue striving toward him.

 

[Tangible]

The OP here illustrates one of the more heinous effects of Pietism, thinking that living an ordinary life is somehow not pleasing to God, or not pleasing enough to God.

1 Cor 7:17 Only let each person lead the life that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches. 18 Was anyone at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was anyone at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision. 19 For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God. 20 Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called. 21 Were you a slave [3] when called? Do not be concerned about it. (But if you can gain your freedom, avail yourself of the opportunity.) 22 For he who was called in the Lord as a slave is a freedman of the Lord. Likewise he who was free when called is a slave of Christ. 23 You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men. 24 So, brothers, [4] in whatever condition each was called, there let him remain with God.

 

[wr2]

Hello,
but in the bible there are so many verses which talk about picking up your cross or following after Jesus or having to hate your parents or selling your goods or not looking back when you put your hand on the plow. All these things clearly sound like you must do something or at least you're expected to. I am also confused by this debate about what's needed for salvation. Even if all you needed was to believe and besides this you could be a christian and never do anything like reading the bible or praying then I'd still feel guilty and unworthy all the time. Other christians are doing much better than me and also really doing productive stuff for God while I'm not doing anything and I also don't really know what I could do for God and this always leads to frustration.

 

[mark46]

The Christain life is not about doing productive stuff and being better than the other guy.

God does not condemn us. He only asks to go forward and try not to sin any more.

Each day, we grow closer to Jesus, we grow to be more like Him, to be his hands and feet in this world.

Jesus asks for a relationship. He asks us to seek and Him. He promises that if we seek HIm, we SHALL find Him. There are no exceptions. Nothing can separat us from the love of God, certainly not our lack of productive action.

Hello,
but in the bible there are so many verses which talk about picking up your cross or following after Jesus or having to hate your parents or selling your goods or not looking back when you put your hand on the plow. All these things clearly sound like you must do something or at least you're expected to. I am also confused by this debate about what's needed for salvation. Even if all you needed was to believe and besides this you could be a christian and never do anything like reading the bible or praying then I'd still feel guilty and unworthy all the time. Other christians are doing much better than me and also really doing productive stuff for God while I'm not doing anything and I also don't really know what I could do for God and this always leads to frustration.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Hello,
but in the bible there are so many verses which talk about picking up your cross or following after Jesus or having to hate your parents or selling your goods or not looking back when you put your hand on the plow. All these things clearly sound like you must do something or at least you're expected to. I am also confused by this debate about what's needed for salvation. Even if all you needed was to believe and besides this you could be a christian and never do anything like reading the bible or praying then I'd still feel guilty and unworthy all the time. Other christians are doing much better than me and also really doing productive stuff for God while I'm not doing anything and I also don't really know what I could do for God and this always leads to frustration.

Asking what is "needed" is really asking the wrong question. It is about uniting yourself to God. That is salvation. What other people are doing has no bearing on you whatsoever.

 

[Adam Warlock]

The OP here illustrates one of the more heinous effects of Pietism, thinking that living an ordinary life is somehow not pleasing to God, or not pleasing enough to God.

Preach it!

 

[bbbbbbb]

The OP here illustrates one of the more heinous effects of Pietism, thinking that living an ordinary life is somehow not pleasing to God, or not pleasing enough to God.

It has been my great surprise and delight to discover that in God's economy there is no such thing as an "ordinary" life for a Chrsitian. By grace we lead extraordinary lives as we see God working out our salvation. The world may judge us as being ordinary and humdrum, but it is our joy to know, in reality, the Lord Jesus Christ, and to get a glimpse of His glory while yet on earth.

 

[Brak]

This is a very interesting question. The fact of the matter is, the Kingdom of God is about giving up everything for the cause of Christ. That is clear in Scripture, in multiple places, multiple contexts, multiple authors. Whether one cannot be saved unless they do so, that is not so clear. Like for example, the rich man who walked away from Jesus sad. It never says he wasn't saved. (Mark 10:21-22)

Here is my insight into the matter: I just went over the Scripture about the parable of the pearl (Matthew 13:44-45) recently. The man found the pearl, then sold everything he had and bought the field with the pearl. How easy it is to do the exact opposite: if I find an expensive pearl, you know what I am likely to do? Sell the pearl and buy a nice new car. But no, that's not what you do: you sell the car and buy the pearl. The Kingdom of God is about recognizing what's really important. And what's not. Sadly, all too many people have got it COMPLETELY wrong.

 

[Tangible]

Hello,
but in the bible there are so many verses which talk about picking up your cross or following after Jesus or having to hate your parents or selling your goods or not looking back when you put your hand on the plow. All these things clearly sound like you must do something or at least you're expected to. I am also confused by this debate about what's needed for salvation. Even if all you needed was to believe and besides this you could be a christian and never do anything like reading the bible or praying then I'd still feel guilty and unworthy all the time. Other christians are doing much better than me and also really doing productive stuff for God while I'm not doing anything and I also don't really know what I could do for God and this always leads to frustration.

We are certainly told to pick up our crosses, but there is nothing that says that we get to pick our own crosses. A cross you choose is not really a cross in the sense that Jesus was talking about. We will always pick crosses that appeal to us in some way or another, or think we can benefit from carrying.

When God gives us a cross to bear, it's not to make us better people, it's to put to death our flesh. Big difference.

 

[razeontherock]

Excellent discussion! Heartfelt issue here ...

 

[Noxot]

to be doing the Fathers will is what matters. to be clean is what matters. what else could matter? it feels good to not be dirty and filthy. more and more God is showing me how tormenting it is to have things like pride and lust and being unwise. I hope to be fully clean soon, it is impossible without God.

just be sure that you are with Jesus, He will let you know! seek and ask! keep on asking and seeking with as pure a heart as you can. God will set us both free! and everyone who abides in Christ will not be forsaken. the closer we are to Jesus, the more understanding we will have, because there is much understanding, knowledge and wisdom with God.

 

[patience7]

Recently I heard the story of the person who started the vineyard churches. I don't remember his name right now but he was a successful musician close to a record deal when he beacem a christian and then he writes in his book that he suddenly thought that God might want him to give up his profession and that he got very angry about this and thought he cannot do it but then he did it and since he had not learned anything started working in a factory where he cleaned dirty oil cans. I found this really depressing. I mean this gives me the impression that God wants to take things from people simply for the sake of taking it as if God is up there waiting to find something which christians enjoy or which they are good at in order to take it away from them. What do you think about this?
I ask myself if this guy was a good musician why did he not simply start a good christian band? Why did he have to work in a factory under awful conditions?
And do you think that if a person in such a situation wants to get saved but at the same time does not want to quit playing secular music that such a person cannot be saved unless she gives up whatever she thinks God wants her to give up?

What do you do for example if you're a worrier and then always fear that God might want you to quit whatever you enjoy? Then this would mean that you better directly quit everything because this is the only way to prove that you'd really give it up. The only way to really find out if you would give up something for God would be giving it up and this means you would have to give up everything because if you don't then you also could never know if you would have given it up.
Imagine you have a hobby or a job which totally makes you happy and then one day you get the thought what if God wants me to give this up then how can you ever find peace again and settle this issue with such a thought chasing you?

No. Salvation is only dependent on our faith in Jesus Christ. Through every trial and temptation - every thing relies on our faith in Christ. By faith in Christ we are redeemed, we are made righteous, we are sanctified, and we are justified. Our salvation is dependent upon NOTHING we do in the flesh!

 

[Habakk]

The apostle Paul wrote:
Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, [therewith] to be content. Philippians 4:11

The apostle Paul knew both sides of the coin, he knew what it was like be exalted and he also knew what it was like to be abased. The scripture teaches contentment that is trusting God in whatever situation you find yourself and acting wisely as a good steward.

One key word that Paul uses is the word learned and as Christians we learn things with our walk with God.

Salvation depends upon the atoning blood of Jesus and we receive this grace of God through faith alone. After we are saved we are required to do works of faith. Those works include things like compassion, kindness and responsibility.

 

[Tangible]

Salvation depends upon the atoning blood of Jesus and we receive this grace of God through faith alone. After we are saved we are required to do works of faith. Those works include things like compassion, kindness and responsibility.

Your first sentence is correct. God graciously grants us the gift of saving faith in Christ alone for our salvation. This is pure gospel.

The second sentence, however, would turn us back to the law. We cannot look to works done as a requirement for salvation to either save us or maintain our salvation (Rom 4).

Good works are a product of our salvation. The are a result of God's gift of faith working in us and cannot be separated from our faith any more than light and heat can be separated from fire. Good works are always produced by faith working in us, and those who are being saved by God are characterized by doing good works, yet these good works are not required for our salvation.

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Also,

Romans 14:22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Salvation depends upon the atoning blood of Jesus and we receive this grace of God through faith alone. After we are saved we are required to do works of faith. Those works include things like compassion, kindness and responsibility.

Our salvation is directly related to the actions performed through us by God. It is also directly connected with love of God and love of Man as well. A person who saved, given the chance, WILL perform good works. separation of faith and works can be done theoretically (and is occasionally discussed in such a manner in Scripture to highlight certain aspects of both) but in practice they are intimately connected. If God is working on your heart it will shine forth. It doesn't mean YOU have to do something to be saved but rather that the state of salvation brought about by God has real effects in all spheres.