Does John 17:15 Destroy Pretribulation Rapture?

[jerry kelso]

2 Corinthians 3:11-15 (NIV)
11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenantis read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.

I think we must have different Bibles because mine says nothing about judgment.


And what does this have to do with the judgments?

Oh, I understand that the unbelievers are still blinded by the veil because they've rejected Christ. I don't know why you think I don't understand that, but what I really don't understand is what does this have to do with the judgments?

Paul is advising people not to judge, but to let the Lord judge. So how does this support your position that there are two judgements?

I see. I use "different hermeneutics" so that's why I don't understand you.

I'm guessing English is not your first language because you seem to be having a difficult time explaining your reasoning, and I'm having a difficult time understanding your grammar. Maybe it's because you don't like to use proper punctuation?

Anyway, I think what you're trying to say is that there is no room for the believer to be judged at the end of the tribulation, so therefore they must be judged prior. Is that your reasoning? If so, I really don't see what you're basing that on. Revelation 20 makes it clear that "books" plural are opened, meaning not just the book of life, but likely also the book of rewards, and that those who are not found in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire, which implies that some will be found in the book of life at that time. That means believers are judged at the same time as unbelievers.

You also seem to think that all believers are in heaven during the events of Revelation 4, which is easily debatable since it doesn't actually say all believers are in heaven at that time. It only says that there are 24 elders in heaven, which you seem to think represent the believers but there's no reason to think that. In fact, it's kind of ridiculous to think that, so you're just making an assumption here and basing your entire understanding of eschatology on that assumption. Not exactly a strong foundation for your position.

Here you're making the assumption that the sinners are judged 1000 years after the day of the Lord, undoubtedly based on the assumption that the book of Revelation is written 100% chronologically, but you seem to think that piling assumptions upon assumptions is valid reasoning. It's not. You may have to make a few assumptions because scripture doesn't spell out every single detail for us, but for the most part your reasoning has to be based on provable facts. Yours isn't.

Jerry, the fact is you wouldn't recognize strong evidence if it hit you in the face. All of your claims are based on assumptions. You have nothing concrete. You accuse me of not wanting to know or being ignorant but you'd better take a look in the mirror buddy. You've got an extremely weak basis for your beliefs. Extremely weak.

Have you noticed that you still haven't been able to produce any scripture that says there are two judgments? The only thing you've shown me is that there are 24 elders seen in heaven in Revelation 4, and also that the believers receive rewards at some point. Then you mix that in with a bunch of assumptions and conjecture and you think that's enough to make your case? Really?

Did you notice that your first six points in no way support your assertion that there are two judgments? They are all completely irrelevant. Have you noticed that every one of your posts follows this same pattern? You use a lot of words that don't support your position in any way. Why do you do this?

I hate to tell you this but you are trying much too hard to make scripture fit your beliefs. I've seen some weak evidence to support theories but you take the cake. Honestly. I'm not trying to put you down or be mean or anything but you really ought to recognize your lack of evidence and your flawed approach to eschatology. You're not even picking up on the super obvious points in scripture. You're literally just desperately looking for bits and pieces that you can use in whatever fat fetched manner to support your beliefs and it's not working. At all. Try approaching this from another angle and just let scripture lead your beliefs rather than the other way around.

lastseven,

1. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 is talking about the judgement of the believers works not 2 Corinthians 3. We are judged for our works of how we built on the foundation of the church and this is why it is not about our salvation. 1 Corinthians 3. Read the whole chapter.

2. The timing of this judgement is in the middle of the tribulation Revelation 11:18 because it says the rewards of the saints and prophets and it is under the 7th trumpet which is fulfilled in the middle of the tribulation.
The believers don't have to be judged for sin because they are already saved from sin.

3. The sinners judgement is at the GWTJ Revelation 20:5; 11-12.

4. The books being opened and the book of life is what the dead sinners were judged out of not the believers.
You just think because it says the book of life it means believers too and that is not true.

5. These are the two judgements; one for the believers which is a judgement on the wood, hay, stubble works and rewards for the silver, gold and precious stones works.
The sinners are for the works and their life of sin.
Believers rewards are in the middle of the tribulation and the sinners are at the end of the 1000 years which is 1000 years after the Day of the Lord or the battle of Armageddon.
Now if you think you can rebut this by scripture go ahead but you can't. Jerry kelso

 

[LastSeven]

lastseven,
1. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 is talking about the judgement of the believers works not 2 Corinthians 3. We are judged for our works of how we built on the foundation of the church and this is why it is not about our salvation. 1 Corinthians 3. Read the whole chapter.

I've read it many times. I don't see how it supports your position. If you think it supports your position, convince me.

2. The timing of this judgement is in the middle of the tribulation Revelation 11:18 because it says the rewards of the saints and prophets and it is under the 7th trumpet which is fulfilled in the middle of the tribulation.
The believers don't have to be judged for sin because they are already saved from sin.

There you go again, basing all your deductions on other deductions without any solid foundation to build upon.

3. The sinners judgement is at the GWTJ Revelation 20:5; 11-12.

And where does it say that believers are not judged here? Oh ya, it doesn't, except of course if you accept Jerry's deductions based on other deductions. You have absolutely zero evidence that believers are not judged after the thousand years.

4. The books being opened and the book of life is what the dead sinners were judged out of not the believers.
You just think because it says the book of life it means believers too and that is not true.

Not true? On what do you base that Jerry? Do you have a scripture that says believers are not judged when the book of life is opened? No, of course you don't because none of your opinions are based on scripture. You just keep telling me what's true and what's not true, without proving any of it.

5. These are the two judgements; one for the believers which is a judgement on the wood, hay, stubble works and rewards for the silver, gold and precious stones works.
The sinners are for the works and their life of sin.
Believers rewards are in the middle of the tribulation and the sinners are at the end of the 1000 years which is 1000 years after the Day of the Lord or the battle of Armageddon.

And on what do you base this deduction? Oh ya, more deductions. Wake me up when you have some actual scriptural evidence.

Now if you think you can rebut this by scripture go ahead but you can't. Jerry kelso

Lol. I don't have to rebut your imagination Jerry. Nothing you say is supported by scripture so I have no reason to believe any of it. That's like me telling you my underwear is blue and I challenge you to rebut that by scripture.

 

[BABerean2]

baberean2,

1. All you want to do is prove that Darby started the Pre-Rapture done? That is not true and John Gill espoused this before Darby.

2. The truth is in God's word and the pre-trib rapture was a mystery not known to the old testament people who understood the last which dealt with the resurrection of the dead.
Paul revealed this mystery in the Thessalonians Church 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and the Corinthians Church 1 Corinthians 15:51.
So Darby is irrelevant or Gill or whoever you think started the doctrine because the Apostle Paul revealed it.

3. I already explained what is meant by 2 different kingdoms and you refuse to believe me or the bible and say it is something other than what I said just like you do Darby. You misconstrue.

4. There are many multiple kingdoms of this world that Christ has to take over.Revelation 11:15.

5. There are many kingdoms and principalities throughout the universe Colossians 1:16.

6. You can't prove there is but one kingdom alone only one overall KINGDOM OF GOD IN ITS PHYSICAL SENSE OF THE WHOLE UNIVERSE.
Now quit being ignorant on purpose. Ignorant as in lack of understanding and on purpose because you don't want to be wrong and profess the truth.

7. Show me by scripture there is but one kingdom and no other and what that kingdom is called. I know how you can do it and you will still be wrong. So go ahead. Jerry kelso

A Baptist pastor speaks on Dispensationalism

 

[jerry kelso]

I've read it many times. I don't see how it supports your position. If you think it supports your position, convince me.

There you go again, basing all your deductions on other deductions without any solid foundation to build upon.
And where does it say that believers are not judged here? Oh ya, it doesn't, except of course if you accept Jerry's deductions based on other deductions. You have absolutely zero evidence that believers are not judged after the thousand years.

Not true? On what do you base that Jerry? Do you have a scripture that says believers are not judged when the book of life is opened? No, of course you don't because none of your opinions are based on scripture. You just keep telling me what's true and what's not true, without proving any of it.

And on what do you base this deduction? Oh ya, more deductions. Wake me up when you have some actual scriptural evidence.

Lol. I don't have to rebut your imagination Jerry. Nothing you say is supported by scripture so I have no reason to believe any of it. That's like me telling you my underwear is blue and I challenge you to rebut that by scripture.

lastseven,

1. You are laughable.

2. You didn't give one scripture to rebut my position or a logical reason to what scripture you gave.

3. All you can do is disagree.

4. I told you your only scripture you gave was Revelation 20:12 about the book of life. Now I will say this if this is the only book of life that has believers names in it which is implied in verse 15 but the sinners names are not in it.

5. Verse 15; And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
So the point is that those who were not found in the book of life and that is the context. The context is still not about the believers being judged at that time or at all for their names are in it and the cross was the place for judgement on sin and they remain saved.

6. The fact is that you are still wrong in your position of a judgement on believers at the GWTJ. This is a Judgement on sinners and Revelation 20:5 backs that up.

7. The sinners are resurrected and then judged. See you can't put two and two together cause you want it to say judgement in verse 5 instead of resurrection and yet in verse 12 it shows judgement. Now you are being unfair on purpose to prove something that you can't substantiate.

8. Now I have debunked your position of the sinners judgement. Now what do you to say.

9. I have showed you the believers works being judged and rewards at the same time. Do you believe this is true in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 or are you just hung up on the time factor which I have already debunked and all you can do is accuse me of mere deductions and imaginations. That is a ball face lie and you know it. So unless you can come up with scripture to show what you believe about the judgements and when they happen then quit posting me your nonsense. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

A Baptist pastor speaks on Dispensationalism

baberean2,

1. The pastor doesn't know what he is talking about on every point of dispensationalism.
The trouble with most school of thoughts such as dispensationalism or covenant theology or preterist positions etc. is because when you formulate everything in a pattern you might miss or add something in that is not necessarily correct.

2. Salvation has never been by works as far as receiving whether before, during or after the law.
Salvation has always been by grace through faith because it takes unmerited favor from God that he would even think of saving lowly man. Through faith is in whatever revelation of the redemption they had and it was in shadows and types and not direct like now because we are after the cross.

3. Salvation by works under the law is only in reference to the fact that they had to live by the law for that was the righteousness of the law; the man that does them shall live in them.
This is different in receiving salvation.
Today, we receive salvation not by works of merit but be grace through faith and the belief of the foundation of the full revelation of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ after the fact.
The old testament was pointing to the sacrifice but didn't have the big picture.
The disciples were under the law and they had the gospel which meant they had to believe in their revelation which was Christ as the Messiah and that he would forgive their sins.
But as far as the knowledge of the cross and resurrection and basing it directly on this like we do they did not because they didn't have that revelation. That is why Peter got rebuked by Jesus for thwarting the plan of God even though he was being used of Satan and didn't realize what he was doing.

4. Core doctrines can be the same but take shape in a different manner. As I have already stated saved by grace through faith has always been in every age. But the preacher doesn't understand that not everyone had the same revelation.

5. God dealt with men through their conscience but they didn't have a written law for murder but it was still wrong. The law had a written law for murder but now christians have that law written on their hearts. We also still have a conscience but we have more information than just a conscience.

6. The point is that people have to understand the correct history and what people knew about God and what God expected of them in their stewardship etc. and how the revelation was gradual and what the rules were in each age and why.

7. The preacher doesn't fully understand these things.

8. I can point out things that are wrong with covenant theology such as UES so every form of theology has its problem and is probably not full proof.

9. The truth is that much of dispensations are misunderstood.

10. Paul was given the dispensation of the grace of God but not by himself. He was given it for the express purpose of revealing it mainly to the gentiles and the mystery of the church of jews and gentiles in one body.
No one has a cornerstone on a dispensation.

11. I can go by the principles of a system and knock down plenty but that doesn't mean the whole system is corrupt. And even if you don't like a couple of things about it I don't believe the pre rapture is going to bother anyone's salvation.

12. Now salvation by works would but dispensationalists don't believe that. They do believe to obey the commandments and live for Christ and not go into apostasy. They don't for the most part even though there are some like Larkin who believe in UES. Dake, Pentecost and Ryrie don't believe in UES or at least Dake and Pentecost as far as across the board.

13. I believe in UES as far as being obedient through one's life and that is because we are to be servants of God and not yield to Satan and backslide and go into apostasy. It is possible. At the same time I do believe in CES because we can lose our salvation if we change masters and stay in sin because God requires obedience through faith in our living not just the receiving of our salvation. Whether you believe this or not it is bible and I have seen it happen plenty. I have to go. Post a reply its fine but you really need to concentrate on the context of the word and not a system. This is why you stay confused and can't be objective to anything but what you believe your mission is. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

baberean2,

1. The pastor doesn't know what he is talking about on every point of dispensationalism.
The trouble with most school of thoughts such as dispensationalism or covenant theology or preterist positions etc. is because when you formulate everything in a pattern you might miss or add something in that is not necessarily correct.

2. Salvation has never been by works as far as receiving whether before, during or after the law.
Salvation has always been by grace through faith because it takes unmerited favor from God that he would even think of saving lowly man. Through faith is in whatever revelation of the redemption they had and it was in shadows and types and not direct like now because we are after the cross.

3. Salvation by works under the law is only in reference to the fact that they had to live by the law for that was the righteousness of the law; the man that does them shall live in them.
This is different in receiving salvation.
Today, we receive salvation not by works of merit but be grace through faith and the belief of the foundation of the full revelation of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ after the fact.
The old testament was pointing to the sacrifice but didn't have the big picture.
The disciples were under the law and they had the gospel which meant they had to believe in their revelation which was Christ as the Messiah and that he would forgive their sins.
But as far as the knowledge of the cross and resurrection and basing it directly on this like we do they did not because they didn't have that revelation. That is why Peter got rebuked by Jesus for thwarting the plan of God even though he was being used of Satan and didn't realize what he was doing.

4. Core doctrines can be the same but take shape in a different manner. As I have already stated saved by grace through faith has always been in every age. But the preacher doesn't understand that not everyone had the same revelation.

5. God dealt with men through their conscience but they didn't have a written law for murder but it was still wrong. The law had a written law for murder but now christians have that law written on their hearts. We also still have a conscience but we have more information than just a conscience.

6. The point is that people have to understand the correct history and what people knew about God and what God expected of them in their stewardship etc. and how the revelation was gradual and what the rules were in each age and why.

7. The preacher doesn't fully understand these things.

8. I can point out things that are wrong with covenant theology such as UES so every form of theology has its problem and is probably not full proof.

9. The truth is that much of dispensations are misunderstood.

10. Paul was given the dispensation of the grace of God but not by himself. He was given it for the express purpose of revealing it mainly to the gentiles and the mystery of the church of jews and gentiles in one body.
No one has a cornerstone on a dispensation.

11. I can go by the principles of a system and knock down plenty but that doesn't mean the whole system is corrupt. And even if you don't like a couple of things about it I don't believe the pre rapture is going to bother anyone's salvation.

12. Now salvation by works would but dispensationalists don't believe that. They do believe to obey the commandments and live for Christ and not go into apostasy. They don't for the most part even though there are some like Larkin who believe in UES. Dake, Pentecost and Ryrie don't believe in UES or at least Dake and Pentecost as far as across the board.

13. I believe in UES as far as being obedient through one's life and that is because we are to be servants of God and not yield to Satan and backslide and go into apostasy. It is possible. At the same time I do believe in CES because we can lose our salvation if we change masters and stay in sin because God requires obedience through faith in our living not just the receiving of our salvation. Whether you believe this or not it is bible and I have seen it happen plenty. I have to go. Post a reply its fine but you really need to concentrate on the context of the word and not a system. This is why you stay confused and can't be objective to anything but what you believe your mission is. Jerry kelso

Jerry,

This preacher knows more about Dispensational Theology than you do because he is describing the system as it was originally taught at Dallas Theological Seminary. You have attempted to mutate the doctrine to make it work.

Classic Dispensationalism as taught in the Scofield Reference Bible claims the Age of Grace ends 7 years before the Second Coming after the pretrib rapture of the Church and then God will go back to dealing with Israel under the Old Covenant system of law keeping.

You talk about the New Covenant. However, you will not find that it the Scofield Reference Bible because an understanding of the New Covenant destroys the Two Peoples of God doctrine. I have never heard a Dispensational preacher give a sermon on the New Covenant, because it destroys his distinctions between the Church and Israel.

I have posted scriptures that show the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are the same, but you ignore it and go on with your claims.

I do have a system of Bible interpretation.
It is found in John 1:1, 14.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The whole Bible is a book not about Israel.
It is a book about Jesus Christ.
He wrote it.

Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

In Luke 24:27 we find Jesus explaining that the whole Old Testament was about Him. It is a HIM book.

What systems of Bible interpretation did the 19th century produce?


Mormonism: Joseph Smith

Seventh Day Adventists: Ellen G. White

Jehovah's Witnesses: Charles Taz Russell

Dispensationalism: John Nelson Darby

Do you see a pattern here?

.


.

 

[LastSeven]

Jerry, wake me up when you have something substantial. Until then we're going to assume there's only one judgment.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

This preacher knows more about Dispensational Theology than you do because he is describing the system as it was originally taught at Dallas Theological Seminary. You have attempted to mutate the doctrine to make it work.

Classic Dispensationalism as taught in the Scofield Reference Bible claims the Age of Grace ends 7 years before the Second Coming after the pretrib rapture of the Church and then God will go back to dealing with Israel under the Old Covenant system of law keeping.

You talk about the New Covenant. However, you will not find that it the Scofield Reference Bible because an understanding of the New Covenant destroys the Two Peoples of God doctrine. I have never heard a Dispensational preacher give a sermon on the New Covenant, because it destroys his distinctions between the Church and Israel.

I have posted scriptures that show the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are the same, but you ignore it and go on with your claims.

I do have a system of Bible interpretation.
It is found in John 1:1, 14.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The whole Bible is a book not about Israel.
It is a book about Jesus Christ.
He wrote it.

Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

In Luke 24:27 we find Jesus explaining that the whole Old Testament was about Him. It is a HIM book.

What systems of Bible interpretation did the 19th century produce?


Mormonism: Joseph Smith

Seventh Day Adventists: Ellen G. White

Jehovah's Witnesses: Charles Taz Russell

Dispensationalism: John Nelson Darby

Do you see a pattern here?

.


.

baberean2,

1. I am not guided by Dallas Theological Seminary which is mostly Baptist.

2. I am not guided by the system of Dispensationalism.

3. I understand the principles and agree with much of it as you say you do, so why you want to call it a mutation and get mad. You don't even believe in the 2 people as you call it.

4. I go by the word of God and I have been tutored much by the correct messianic jewish interpretation. In case you didn't know the Bible was written basically by jews and most of the old testament is about the jews specifically as a nation to bring forth the Messiah and how they were to receive the Kingdom according to obedience but has not happened yet because they rejected Christ not to mention it wasn't the proper time.

5. Scofield is correct about the pre-trib rapture being 7 years before the Second Coming.
God will deal with Israel specifically again in the time of Jacob's trouble to purge and purify them according to Daniel 9:24-27.

6. Dispensational preachers always talk about the new covenant for the world.
Since they make the distinction between Israel and the church they understand the new covenant with Israel the nation was not made with them and that is why they couldn't fulfill their covenants of Abraham and David concerning the land and the kingdom.
This proves that there are many different types or variations of dispensationalists just like Calvinist of 1-5 points of the tulip.

7. Every denomination have people who can explain the doctrine poorly and misunderstand some of what their church really believes. Then there are those that can take it to the nth degree and make a pretty convincing argument.

8. In the tribulation the jewish nation will rebuild the temple and start the feast but will still not understand the whole truth and the Antichrist will desolate the temple Revelation 11.

9. 1/3 of the jews will later be purged and 2/3 left that serve God.
When Israel's nation is almost lost they will recognize the suffering Messiah and will repent and become a nation in one day.

10. In the millennial KOH they will live under the new covenant and jews will still be jews in their culture and the civil law will be applied. So Judaism for the jews will still be under the new covenant for there is no old covenant ever since Calvary.

11. So Israel will not live under the old covenant with God that is just your imagination or your misunderstanding because of the feasts or whatever it may be.
The feasts will be a memorial and they are eternal and earthly nations will come up for the feast to Jerusalem Zechariah 14:16.

12. I know what scriptures you give for the KOH and the KOG. I also rebutted and told you why the KOH and the KOG can be the same because the KOH earthly sphere is a part of the KOG the whole universe. Obviously, you don't quite understand that. I also said the KOG spiritual aspect is revealed in Matthew 6:33 and Luke 17:20 which was under the law. The jews were never told to seek the spiritual kingdom according to salvation through the KOH aspect. This the correct Messianic Jewish interpretation so I am not just making something up out of the clear blue sky and it is in the scripture.

13. The whole bible is about the revelation of the plan of redemption through Jesus Christ and not Israel. There is no argument there even though you want to slant it that way to prove me wrong when I talk about the jews dispensation of law which covers most all of the old testament and the gospels and historically as well.
You are including dispensationalism why not put covenant theology or Berean theology because obviously you are not on the right track.

14. We both say the bible is about Christ in every dispensation but is that to say we live out anything said about gentiles and jews in their proper dispensation and covenants? And how does one decide who is right between you and me when we both believe Christ is the central theme of the whole bible? This is why proper context about each age is important and what the big picture is before you can understand the details.

15. There should be no argument about Israel's covenant promises of Abraham and David for they are eternal and conditioned on obedience of the whole nation and the fullness of the gentiles.

16. The truth is that Israel was prophesied to reject the Messiah and the church was predestined so God would die for the whole world.

17. The KOH and the KOG offer was valid because that was the promise to Israel and Christ offered it to them Matthew 4:17. So the hypothetical of whether or not the kingdom offer was valid is answered.

18. They hypothetical of what would have happened if Israel would have accepted the offer is that Christ would have still had to die and most likely gentiles would have still come to Christ through the witness of Israel at the head of the nations. We will never know this side of glory.

19. At the same time because of the climate and the mindset of the jews they would not accept Christ as a whole nation at that time.

20. The old covenant was still in force in Jesus ministry and the KOH and KOG message was rejected before the death and resurrection. When Calvary happened the new testament in Christ blood came about.

21. The new covenant is the same as the new testament in his blood.
Israel as a nation has not received the new testament in his blood so they can receive the promises of their covenants. They rejected it and the world was able to receive Christ and have a covenant and the church began with jew and gentiles in it even though the mystery of that didn't come to fruition until the vision of the clean and unclean to Peter.

22. The KOH is still future. It was not revived after Calvary for Christ said it wasn't in Acts 1:6-7 and two the church was in progress. God didn't have two programs at one time such as the KOH and the Church of Jews and Gentiles.

23. You think that because they were overtaken in 70 A.D. but Christ had already said they would be destroyed in 70 A.D. in Matthew 24 before he died and before the church was born.

24. There should be no argument about works of receiving salvation for that never was true. I already explained the difference between receiving salvation by obedience through faith and the jews having to do the law in order to be righteous before God. This is why apostasy is possible through disobedience to the point that one totally changes masters from God back to Satan. This is why UES in the light of Calvin's 5 points is wrong.

25. There should be no argument about the rapture whether pre, mid or post in the light of effecting a christians salvation even though it happens.
Another words whenever the rapture happens doesn't matter in the long run to me personally because we are told to occupy until he comes and we are to be ready to die for God at any moment.

26. If one is not willing to die for Christ right now I question how much he is really following the Lord because the one who looks back and takes his hand off the plough will be forsaken as if he never served God to begin with.

27. My salvation rests in my commitment to him not because of the timing of the rapture.
The salvation message is imminent because we don't know when our lives will end. People who wait till the tribulation end may not even have the mindset to serve God because he will send a strong delusion etc.

28. The same with the pre-trib rapture if people are made to go into a mode of slothfulness and uncaring about the lost and are just enjoying the ride till they go to heaven they are wrong who make them feel that way. Other times it is just the person themselves with their pre-conceived ideas of what is being said.

29. So these arguments can be made against both sides and the truth must be explained and not go off on tangents because of what people think or the wrong ideas have about their poor deductions.

30. In the end for a committed christian the timing of the rapture will not make a hill of beans in affecting their salvation and I have heard plenty of pre-tribbers say the same thing and more than I do post-tribbers and the way they feel about pre-trib rapture proponents and the doctrine itself.

31. So you don't take everything in consideration about the truth because you are more interested in shooting systems of theology. You say you believe in dispensationalism but not Darby's two kingdoms etc. and that is fine but it just goes to show that you are more interested in proving the system of theology and discredit people who supposedly mutate according to you words that system of theology than being true to the truth of God's word.

32. As far as your system of theology John 1:1 there is no argument there because we have already agreed the whole bible is overall about Christ.
John 1:14 the word was made flesh of a human jew. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry, wake me up when you have something substantial. Until then we're going to assume there's only one judgment.

lastseven,
You are the one with no scriptural proof and nothing to say.
You can assume all you want about one judgement but your assumption is not a fact. Jerry kelso

 

[LastSeven]

Unless there's a reason to think there are two judgments, why would not assume there's only one? And no, you have not given me a reason.

 

[jerry kelso]

Unless there's a reason to think there are two judgments, why would not assume there's only one? And no, you have not given me a reason.

lastseven,

I have scriptural fact and you don't so you are the only who is assuming. Quit posting me with such dishonest talk. Jerry Kelso

 

[LastSeven]

You're delusional.

 

[BABerean2]

Israel as a nation has not received the new testament in his blood so they can receive the promises of their covenants.

God never promised to spiritually save every person in the modern State of Israel.
It only comes through individual repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, just as it now happens with individuals in other nations all over the world.
God is not going to save every person in the United States.
Why would you think He is going to save the atheists and agnostics in the nation of Israel, based on their bloodline?

1Ti_1:4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith.


There are individual Jews who are now coming to faith in Christ.
Many of them live in the modern State of Israel.
This is the "Greek-houto" manner in which they will be saved by being grafted back into the Olive Tree through faith in Christ.

What you are claiming is not found in the Bible.

.

 

[LastSeven]

What you are claiming is not found in the Bible.

Come on Bab. That's just how he rolls.

 

[jerry kelso]

God never promised to spiritually save every person in the modern State of Israel.
It only comes through individual repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, just as it now happens with individuals in other nations all over the world.
God is not going to save every person in the United States.
Why would you think He is going to save the atheists and agnostics in the nation of Israel, based on their bloodline?

1Ti_1:4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith.


There are individual Jews who are now coming to faith in Christ.
Many of them live in the modern State of Israel.
This is the "Greek-houto" manner in which they will be saved by being grafted back into the Olive Tree through faith in Christ.

What you are claiming is not found in the Bible.

.

baberean2,

1. All Israel will be saved. Romans 11:25. True believing jews will be a part of the nation of Israel because the rebels will be killed off Zechariah 14.
This has nothing to do with anyone else for the specific parts of the covenant of Abraham and David concerning the land and the kingdom except the nation of Israel. Genesis 12-15, 1 Chronicles 28, Isaiah 9:6-7 and on and on.

2. Salvation has never had to do with bloodline. Israel were only witnesses of the gospel just like the church. Gentiles were saved before Israel, during Israel, and after the nation rejected Christ and so on and on.
So you are wrong about 1 Timothy 1:4.
Salvation has only to do with the promise of the redeeming sacrifice which came to fruition at Calvary.

3. Nobody is denying salvation of some jews in Israel right now. It is in the tribulation before the second coming when all of Israel will be saved.

You are wrong again and all you want to do is make up an argument to cast doubt on the real truth. Give it up and quit going down rabid rabbit trails. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

You're delusional.

lastseven,
Sorry, but you are the one delusional because I have the true evidence of scripture and you don't. And since you are contrary to the overwhelming evidence of the truth that there is more than one judgement at different times you are the one who meets the requirement of being delusional. Now quit bothering me with such nonsense. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

All Israel will be saved. Romans 11:25. True believing jews will be a part of the nation of Israel because the rebels will be killed off Zechariah 14.

You conveniently left out that one little word that Dispensationalists like to change in order to make their doctrine work.
That word is "so", which is found in Romans 11:26.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
(How can they be saved? By being grafted back into the Olive Tree, through faith in Christ. The Olive Tree is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelite and Gentile branches grafted together.)

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. he
(When does the fullness of the Gentiles happen? We find the answer in Luke 21:24-28)

.................................................
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

We see above that we have the Second Coming of Christ after the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.
...........................................................................
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (All Israel that is Israel of the Promise, instead of the Flesh,(Romans 9:6) shall be saved by being grafted into the Olive Tree, through faith in Christ. This is the Greek-"houto" or manner of their salvation.)

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
(The sins of all races of people were taken away at the Cross of Calvary, when the New Covenant was fulfilled by the Blood of Christ.)

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
(Part of the Israelites rejected Christ and became enemies of the Gospel. The other part, the elect remnant, accepted Christ and became part of the New Covenant Church.)

This is what is plainly written in God's Word.

There is no future time of salvation outside of the New Covenant Church of Christ.

Anyone who suggests otherwise needs to read Paul's warning in Galatians 1:6-9.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

You conveniently left out that one little word that Dispensationalists like to change in order to make their doctrine work.
That word is "so", which is found in Romans 11:26.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
(How can they be saved? By being grafted back into the Olive Tree, through faith in Christ. The Olive Tree is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelite and Gentile branches grafted together.)

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. he
(When does the fullness of the Gentiles happen? We find the answer in Luke 21:24-28)

.................................................
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

We see above that we have the Second Coming of Christ after the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.
...........................................................................
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (All Israel that is Israel of the Promise, instead of the Flesh,(Romans 9:6) shall be saved by being grafted into the Olive Tree, through faith in Christ. This is the Greek-"houto" or manner of their salvation.)

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
(The sins of all races of people were taken away at the Cross of Calvary, when the New Covenant was fulfilled by the Blood of Christ.)

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
(Part of the Israelites rejected Christ and became enemies of the Gospel. The other part, the elect remnant, accepted Christ and became part of the New Covenant Church.)

This is what is plainly written in God's Word.

There is no future time of salvation outside of the New Covenant Church of Christ.

Anyone who suggests otherwise needs to read Paul's warning in Galatians 1:6-9.

.

baberean2,

1. You are wrong about the word so and I have already addressed it in more than one way. You are changing the wording to fit your doctrine.

2. The new covenant church is the vehicle used to make the unbelieving jews come to Christ just like the jews were in the old testament.

3. In the old testament the gentiles were proselyted into Judaism for their was no christianity for Christ had not died and rose again yet.

4. The jews are not proselyted into the church they are just saved.

5. However, there is a remnant even in Paul's day. There is no need for a jewish remnant if there is no covenant with the jewish nation at the head of the nations.

6. You cannot deny that Israel the nation will be in the tribulation and King David will be king over Israel and the 12 apostles will be rulers over the 12 tribes of Israel.

7. The earthly Jerusalem will be the capitol of the whole earth.
Now you cannot deny these scriptures concerning this and I have given them multiple times.

8. That leaves the rulership position of being at the head of the nations left. Only Israel is said to be at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4. Messiah will be the overall ruler and on the throne of David and the increase of his government will know no end.
Out of Zion the law will go forth and Zion is in Israel. There is no scripture that says gentiles will be at the head of the nations or that Christ will be the only one at the head of the nations. So you are wrong again.

9. The time of the gentiles will be at the end of the tribulation when Christ takes all the kingdoms of the world over. There is no scripture that you gave that says the second coming of Christ is before the time of the gentiles because it takes Christ defeating the antichrist armies surrounding Jerusalem at the second coming. Read your bible and quit going down rabbit trails.

10. Romans 11:27 is the same as Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:7-13; in the future at the end of the tribulation.

11. Hebrews 9:15 says that Christ died for the transgressions of the first testament which were jews and gentiles before that. It was for their sins not their bloodline. It was only bloodline because people are humans as jews and gentiles which have a bloodline but it was actually for the penalty of sin of jews and gentiles.

12. The penalty of sin is Jesus dying for sin period. He took care of sin by suffering on the cross which was the price that satisfied the ransom.

13. If Jesus paid for the individual's sin past, present and future as in the penal substitute theory then everyone would be saved and not need grace at all. This is the same as a cash transaction and once the price is paid the debt is satisfied and forever. This is where some get UES from and this is incorrect.

14. The price for sin's debt past, present, and future was suffering. Now I am sure this will go right over your head but it is scriptural.
Some jews did accept Christ and some didn't but that doesn't cancel their eternal covenant as an earthly nation.

15. The elect remnant was an example that their was still a covenant for the jewish nation. The remnant back then will be a part of the church for they were a part of the church. The remnant in the tribulation are the ones left behind such as in Revelation 11 and 12 who do not go to heaven above. They will be a part of the earthly nation of Israel in the KOH.

16. You are misusing the word the New Covenant Church as being the age. The church age has the new covenant and they will be raptured to heaven 7 years before the tribulation.

17. The New Covenant Church in the tribulation age will be because just like the church age members they will have to be saved by the new covenant for there is no old covenant or any other covenant to be saved by!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

18. Now quit making up stuff and misusing words and their meanings to cast doubt on the truth.

19. Galatians 1:6-9; Those people will not be remove from Christ if they are being saved by the New Covenant. This shows how much you are bent on being dishonest by saying and bending the truth of what I said to prove you are right. It don't work.

20. Ever since Calvary there has been only one covenant to be saved by and that is the new testament in Christ's blood and believing in his resurrection and that he is at the right hand of the Father interceding for his children.

21. In the tribulation there will be no difference except the New Covenant Church in the Church age will not be here and don't have to be here and Christ said they would not be here.

22. When people do not go up in the rapture there will be some who knew better and were slothful and didn't keep their lamps trimmed and burning and weren't looking.

23. There are many videos already made that will be left behind and people will be reminded and know how to come to know the Lord. There will be the witnesses of the 144,000 who will be totally sold out to God and the two witnesses and the souls under the altar etc. So we don't have to be here for them to understand the new covenant.

24. You just seem to think it is fine to put God in a box and use one class of people from a different age just because they are under the new covenant. How very, very sad that you limit God and don't give me that the bible says the church of today has to be here because it doesn't say and there are no earmarks either of the church being in the time of Jacob's trouble which has nothing to do with the church only the nation of Israel.

25. You have been accusing me of not believing that the jews or tribulation saints are going to be saved by the new covenant. And you are trying to make people believe that the new covenant church of the church age have to be in the tribulation to be the witnesses to the jews just because they are new covenant believers.

26. The 144,000 jews are never said to be saved by the witness of the church but they were sealed because they gave their selves to God wholly and are the firstfruits of the tribulation that are raptured to heaven.

27. The closest you could get is if you believe the souls under the altar was the church members of the church age of today and they all die.

28. There is no record in Revelation of the tribulation saints that shows both dead saints coming from heaven with the Lord and the living saints from earth meeting them in the clouds.

29. Revelation 6 has the souls under the altar as all martyrs and they are in heaven. No living one raptured with them.

30. Revelation 7 has the 144,000 are all sealed through the trumpet judgements and are raptured in the days of the 7th trumpet as the first fruits. Living saints raptured but no dead saints to meet with them.

31. Revelation 11 has the 2 Witnesses and they are martyred and raised to life and to heaven and no living saints with them. Matter of fact the jewish remnant are watching them as they are raptured to heaven and they didn't go up.
Revelation 12 I believe the man child is future and is the 144,000 and they are raptured alive then and they are in heaven in Revelation 14 as the first fruits unto God and the Lamb.

32. Revelation 15:1-2 show those who didn't take the mark of the beast who are the blessed dead of 14:13 and they are martyrs who go to heaven. They are the same martyrs in Revelation 20:4-6 that complete the first resurrection. There are no living saints raptured with them.

33. Now there is no rapture during the tribulation of living and dead saints at the same time. The dead are raptured first and then the living saints but they meet at the same time in the clouds.
It is sad to think your accusations of what I say and mean are dishonest and wrong after I have told you multiple times over and over again.
But, because you are so sure that some of dispensational teachings are so wrong according to Darby or anyone else you will keep making the same false accusations and still be wrong. In that state there is no hope for you to reach the truth.
Just on the pre-trib rapture alone I have shown you there is no rapture of dead and living saints at the same time from beginning to the end of the tribulation. Why don't you believe this truth? You can't disprove it. The only way you can put the two together is by building up a straw man. So who is your strongest straw man? Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

You are wrong about the word so and I have already addressed it in more than one way. You are changing the wording to fit your doctrine.

Really...

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (KJV)


Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; (ESV)


G3779

οὕτω
houtō
hoo'-to
Or, before a vowel, οὕτως houtōs hoo'-toce.
From G3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows): - after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like (-wise), no more, on this fashion (-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.

Total KJV occurrences: 212


Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.



Joh_12:15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.


He took away the sins of all races at Calvary, fulfilling the New Covenant in His Blood.

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
................................................

Luk 21:24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Luk 21:25 "And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves,

Luk 21:26 people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Luk 21:27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Luk 21:28 Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

This is what Jesus said, Jerry.

He comes back when the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.

You could save a lot of time, energy, and typing if you would accept what scripture says.
Then you would not have to add all of the extra stuff to make your doctrine come out of it.

It is an interesting story you are telling, but it is not written in the Bible. It comes from the imagination of men.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

Really...

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (KJV)


Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; (ESV)


G3779

οὕτω
houtō
hoo'-to
Or, before a vowel, οὕτως houtōs hoo'-toce.
From G3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows): - after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like (-wise), no more, on this fashion (-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.

Total KJV occurrences: 212


Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.



Joh_12:15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.


He took away the sins of all races at Calvary, fulfilling the New Covenant in His Blood.

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
................................................

Luk 21:24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Luk 21:25 "And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves,

Luk 21:26 people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Luk 21:27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Luk 21:28 Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

This is what Jesus said, Jerry.

He comes back when the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.

You could save a lot of time, energy, and typing if you would accept what scripture says.
Then you would not have to add all of the extra stuff to make your doctrine come out of it.

It is an interesting story you are telling, but it is not written in the Bible. It comes from the imagination of men.

.

baberean2,

1. Yes Christ will come back and save all Israel from their ungodliness when he forgives sins and that is why every jew in the nation will be saved at that time.

2. Zechariah also, say 2/3 will be cut off of the rebels which goes with all the other old testament scriptures of getting rid of the unbelieving jews in that day.

3. So in both accounts shows that all the jews of the nation of Israel will be saved.

4. So you are agreeing and don't even know it. At the same time you can't find a scripture that says any jew of the nation of Israel in that day in the millennial kingdom will not be saved. So please be quiet on this issue and believe the truth that the scripture says and I have just told you.

5. You are taking Romans 11:27 out of context. The new covenant was made at calvary and that is true. But the new covenant was not made with the nation of Israel in the early church because they were in the church age and not the kingdom age. Israel has to be purified to inherit the covenants of Abraham and David, not the church from the church age and they have to be purified according to the new covenant in the tribulation to be eligible into the KOH and the KOH reign.

6. The new covenant started the church age. When the church age ends and the tribulation begins for Israel's purification Daniel 9:24-27 the new covenant will still be in effect and the church age saints will not have to be there as witnesses. Now I know you can understand this even though you don't want to believe it.
If you don't believe this then you might as well make the age of the Mosaic law the same as the church age etc. Wake up!!!!!!!!!!!!

7. Took away the sins of all races? Took away sins of all races and not the races.
The gospel was propagated by gentiles before the jews but God satisfied the penalty for sin because those races sinned.

8. According to your theory about races nothing has changed because the races of jews and gentiles together are used to propagate the gospel. So the races are still as involved just as much as when there were just gentiles and the time when there were jews.
Your belief is a walking contradiction that is crippled by the truth. Give it up and quit believing a lie of bad, wrong and illogical reasoning.

9. Hebrews 8:12 is in context with verses 7-11 for they have not been fulfilled and Israel is still in sin as a nation.

10. Verse 13 the decaying and vanishing away was in the hearts of the jews because the nation as a whole still had a veil over their face and still wanted the old covenant and did not want to see it pass away and it did fade away in 70 A.D.

1. Even Paul rejected the nation of jews that would not believe.

12. The big argument and confusion of the jewish leaders especially, with the apostles was about the Mosaic law still being in effect versus the new covenant. The leaders will be judged for misleading the nation of Israel on this issue.

13. You are trying to make verse 13 wrongly because you don't understand context.
If you just took it literal that the new covenant was made with Israel at Calvary then there would be no decaying or vanishing away gradually. So you have the wrong context.

14. The nation of Israel will be trampled underfoot by the gentiles till their time comes in.
There will be signs in heaven and people will faint with fear and then they will see the Lord coming in the clouds.

15. Luke 21:24 is the last 3.5 years of the tribulation so you could say that right before Christ comes back when they are no longer trampling the jews and they surround Israel as the exact time for the time of the gentiles be fulfilled and that is fine.

16. At the same time the gentile rule on earth is still in tact when they surround Jerusalem and when Christ destroys them they are no longer trampling, surrounding or in charge because they are destroyed.

17. So once again you make no sense and wrongly divide the word and use wrong hermeneutics and wrong reasoning.
I have rebutted your misunderstandings etc. and you may disagree but you can't rebut it successfully. Jerry kelso