Does god predestine people to hell? (moved)

[Albion]

"He came to His OWN - and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11 -- election in action

I believe that He is here speaking of the Hebrews, the chosen people, who did not recognize their own Messiah. It is not a verse that proves or disproves Election, one way or the other.

 

[BobRyan]

The choosing of Israel as the means of evangelism and the home to the Messiah message, was God's own arbitrary sovereign "Choice" -- they were chosen by God for that role - they did not ask for it -- He sovereignly assigned them to it -- calling them "His OWN".

However that "election" did not prevent them from turning on God no matter what elected/chose for them - because that is the sort of system He has established. One with free will.

 

[Albion]

The choosing of Israel as the means of evangelism and the home to the Messiah message, was God's own arbitrary sovereign "Choice" -- they were chosen by God for that role - they did not ask for it -- He sovereignly assigned them to it -- calling them "His OWN".

Yes, but that is not what we are discussing. It's not what Predestination or Election (as a synonym for being selected for salvation) means.

They were a chosen people, but Predestination refers to individuals being chosen to have faith in Christ, so in at least three ways is the reference to the Hebrew people irrelevant to our discussion--1) chosen for salvation vs chosen for another purpose, with no guarantees of 2) individual salvation, and 3) no Sola Fide.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

Predestination isn't a bad thing, because if it exists as it does and we yet feel an autonomy of ourselves, then it is by extension not the evil some people try to make it out to be.

Martin Luther stated not to be too worried about predestination because if you have sought and found God then what does it really matter? And I don't believe he was saying this in a way to try to avoid scrutiny, as that wasn't in his nature. He rather had a wonder in his own mind the subtlety of predestination and how harmonized it is to human will- and just wanted others to see the same.

 

[oi_antz]

Predestination isn't a bad thing, because if it exists as it does and we yet feel an autonomy of ourselves, then it is by extension not the evil some people try to make it out to be.

We should not really encourage beliefs based on whether it makes us comfortable. Especially this. If you are not bothered by believing a lie, it does not mean someone else will not stumble if they believe it. Jesus said the truth will set us free. To just believe we are free might not be enough.

 

[BobRyan]

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68499597, member: 235244"]The choosing of Israel as the means of evangelism and the home to the Messiah message, was God's own arbitrary sovereign "Choice" -- they were chosen by God for that role - they did not ask for it -- He sovereignly assigned them to it -- calling them "His OWN".

However that "election" did not prevent them from turning on God no matter what elected/chose for them - because that is the sort of system He has established. One with free will.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but that is not what we are discussing. It's not what Predestination or Election (as a synonym for being selected for salvation) means.

They were a chosen people, but Predestination refers to individuals being chosen to have faith in Christ,

They were chosen/elected to be the chosen people who would evangelize the world and be the people through whom Christ would come... "Salvation is of the Jews" as Christ said in John 4. This is the sovereign God speaking of His selection -

Yet even so - He provided room for free will such that "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not".

In the Calvinist model - that cannot happen. Nothing in 5 point Calvinism allows for it.

The idea that this should not "inform us" on the subject of Calvinism is sometimes urged by this or that poster - but their preference that this clear example of sovereign selection, election - vs free will ... should not instruct us on how that works, may simply be a preference that does not have the weight of compelling argument.

 

[Hank77]

They were a chosen people, but Predestination refers to individuals being chosen to have faith in Christ, so in at least three ways is the reference to the Hebrew people irrelevant to our discussion--1) chosen for salvation vs chosen for another purpose, with no guarantees of 2) individual salvation, and 3) no Sola Fide.

What scriptures specifically talk about all believers being individually chosen?

 

[Albion]

What scriptures specifically talk about all believers being individually chosen?

Hi, Hank.

First, I didn't say that "all believers" are chosen. As for the election being of specific people rather than the whole of the human race (as is sometimes argued) or all the Jews or all the Anglo-Saxons or all of some other race or nationality (as is sometimes argued), this is implicit in such verses as the following:

Acts 13.48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; AND AS MANY AS HAD BEEN APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED.

Romans 8.29-30: FOR WHOM HE FOREKNEW, HE ALSO PREDESTINED to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, THESE HE ALSO CALLED; AND WHOM HE CALLED, THESE HE ALSO JUSTIFIED; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

 

[Hank77]

Hi, Hank.

First, I didn't say that "all believers" are chosen. As for the election being of specific people rather than the whole of the human race (as is sometimes argued) or all the Jews or all the Anglo-Saxons or all of some other race or nationality (as is sometimes argued), this is implicit in such verses as the following:

Acts 13.48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; AND AS MANY AS HAD BEEN APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED.

Romans 8.29-30: FOR WHOM HE FOREKNEW, HE ALSO PREDESTINED to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, THESE HE ALSO CALLED; AND WHOM HE CALLED, THESE HE ALSO JUSTIFIED; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Sorry sometimes I slow on the uptake. What exactly do those two scriptures mean to you? Thank you.

 

[Albion]

Sorry sometimes I slow on the uptake. What exactly do those two scriptures mean to you? Thank you.

The first of them says that God has "appointed" certain people to become believers, and that this is WHY they become believers. That is in direct opposition to the thinking of Free Will churches that teach that we all are free to either believe or not, as we choose.

The second one says that those whom he chose or "called" (which in itself suggests that it's not everyone) are justified, meaning forgiven their sins. Again, it's a matter of him making a selection from along humans who then are saved, as a result of that selection.

 

[com7fy8]

I don't know but like I was sleepy and then this came to mind and it kinda made me courious. Well anyways we all know that god is omniscient right?

all-knowing, yes . . . including that He knows more about the answers to your question than any of us do I think the Bible says we can't figure God out >

"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!" (Romans 11:33)

And ones understand this means God does destine people, but that we can't figure this out. But, I do not see only an issue of who is in control of humans; but what matters more than just control is how God's "ways past finding out" are in His love; so if we relate with one another in God's love with His leading and guiding us, we will discover that ways of our relating in love will be "past finding out"!!! We won't be trying to figure each other out and try to control one another for what we want, but in His love we will be >

"submitting to one another in the fear of God." (Ephesians 5:21)

So, Bible doctrines are not only for comparing intellectual ideas, but for helping us to discover how to love . . . with God who is the only One who really knows how to love. So, in considering predestination, we need to discover the love meaning of predestination, first - - the practical meaning, and not only trying to figure it out intellectually.

If we believe God knows the future, we might consider that He knows the future because He will control it. It is kind of hard to know what will happen, if you don't have any control of what will happen

So doesn't that mean our story plays out or something?

Well, when you watch a movie, you don't know what will happen, but you relax and "ride" to where the movie's producers take you; and this includes how you will be reacting emotionally and influenced to see things. You are trusting those producers, and the producer already knows how the movie will develop and what will happen to each person in the movie; and the makers of the movie even can know and control, more or less, how you will become because of the movie.

Like this, we can trust in Jesus (Ephesians 1:12) and rest and ride in how His grace of His love and leading takes us.

Or else, ones can have a hard life >

"Good understanding gains favor,
.But the way of the unfaithful is hard."
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (Proverbs 13:15)

It kinda be like me writing book or something and I knew the whole story before it even started.

Well, the Bible tells us things about what will turn out, including >

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

So, predestination is about God's purpose to have "many brethren" for His Son Jesus Christ. So, God is about family, not only free will > independence is an idol for some number of people > worldly people are so concerned about control and possession and independence and knowing, and so they miss out on how they could be family with one another. Worldly ones can be so impressed mainly at how God knows and is all-powerful, and they can even fuss a lot about how much control God has. Meanwhile, while their attention is to such concerns of their ego, they neglect how He is "Our Father" (in Matthew 6:6:9, Luke 11:2) and "God is love" (1 John 4:8&16) > God is mainly about having a family for His Son Jesus who is the Groom of us who are the bride church of Christ.

God in His love for Jesus has destined this. You might consider how if you love something or someone, your love for a certain thing or person can have a big effect on what you do and how you relate with different people. "Therefore", our Father's love for His Son Jesus has so much to do with what is destined.

So, predestination is about intimacy with God Himself in His own family caring and sharing love > Romans 5:5. And this all-loving love has us seeking for any and all people to share with us and our Groom Jesus in family caring and sharing love. And you might notice if and how much "predestination" people are about this > Jesus calls to "all"; He has this hope for "all" > Matthew 11:28-30. Included in our destiny as Christians is how we specialize in love and mercy and compassion and forgiveness for any and all people. God's love in us does no less!

Predestination, then, is not so much about intellectual ideas and making them answer to us!! Predestination, then, has to do with what will happen because of our Father's love for His Son Jesus. And we see how determined our Father and Jesus are > Jesus came to this earth, in order to reach us personally and share personally with people, and then Jesus suffered and died like He did so we can share with Him in His own love, after being forgiven and reconciled with God so we can love the way He has us discovering how to love.

So, what and who you love has a lot to do with all that will become of you.

Also wouldn't this affect free will as well.

You might take a look at how many people choose in their free wills to be about family caring and sharing love, and seeking to share this with any and all people, wishing that any and all people become adopted by our Heavenly Father, so they may share with us and our Groom Jesus in family caring and sharing love. And you might notice if and how much "predestination" people are about this . . . versus predestination being only an idea to argue for.

This is just a curious question so yeah

I was curious about what I should believe; now I'm more into being curious to see how God corrects me and has me discovering how to love.

 

[yesyoushould]

I don't know but like I was sleepy and then this came to mind and it kinda made me courious. Well anyways we all know that god is omniscient right? So doesn't that mean our story plays out or something? It kinda be like me writing book or something and I knew the whole story before it even started. Also wouldn't this affect free will as well. This is just a curious question so yeah

I don't know who "god" is.

 

[BobRyan]

...

Romans 8.29-30: FOR WHOM HE FOREKNEW, HE ALSO PREDESTINED to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, THESE HE ALSO CALLED; AND WHOM HE CALLED, THESE HE ALSO JUSTIFIED; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

God's calling and election is based on foreknowledge.

 

[Job8]

I don't know but like I was sleepy and then this came to mind and it kinda made me courious. Well anyways we all know that god is omniscient right? So doesn't that mean our story plays out or something? It kinda be like me writing book or something and I knew the whole story before it even started. Also wouldn't this affect free will as well. This is just a curious question so yeah

Dr Josh,
You are not thinking clearly, in spite of the "Dr". You have mixed up predestination, omniscience, free will and Hell.

The simple answer to your question is another question or two: "Why did God create the Lake of Fire (Hell = Gehenna)?" and "Why did Christ die on the Cross?" Once you answer those two questions from Scripture you will have your answer. Don't take the word of others.