Does god predestine people to hell? (moved)

Dr.J0sh

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I don't know but like I was sleepy and then this came to mind and it kinda made me courious. Well anyways we all know that god is omniscient right? So doesn't that mean our story plays out or something? It kinda be like me writing book or something and I knew the whole story before it even started. Also wouldn't this affect free will as well. This is just a curious question so yeah :p
 

LovelyGiselle

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I'm assuming you are referring to what is known as "double predestination"? God knows all the possibilities that we have in our lives and the consequences of our actions and decisions. God knows what path we are on and where that path itself leads. So it is understandable why some may interpret this as God creating someone to be sent straight to hell without any choice in the matter. Despite the eagerness of the false teachings out there, we ourselves choose our path. And that path is to either accept Christ and his way or not.

From gotquestions I came upon this explanation, maybe it will help:

Romans 9:23 states: "He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory."

God elects certain people beforehand for his glory. It does not say that God chose people to damnation or predestined people to wrath. The Bible never speaks about a double predestination where God elects or predestinates some to hell, others to heaven. Those who are under God's wrath are in that position because they have rejected God. Those that have the righteousness of God are in that position because God has chosen them to be His children.

From this an example would be how Israel was/is chosen among all other nations to be used by God to reveal the truth. People usually ask that why above all other nations, did God choose Israel. But it has nothing to do with Israelite being "originally saved" than other nations. I think this would be known as "single predestination".

But shorty--God does not predestine someone straight to hell.
 
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Dr.J0sh

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I'm assuming you are referring to what is known as "double predestination"? God knows all the possibilities that we have in our lives and the consequences of our actions and decisions. God knows what path we are on and where that path itself leads. So it is understandable why some may interpret this as God creating someone to be sent straight to hell without any choice in the matter. Despite the eagerness of the false teachings out there, we ourselves choose our path. And that path is to either accept Christ and his way or not.

From gotquestions I came upon this explanation, maybe it will help:



From this an example would be how Israel was/is chosen among all other nations to be used by God to reveal the truth. People usually ask that why above all other nations, did God choose Israel. But it has nothing to do with Israelite being "originally saved" than other nations. I think this would be known as "single predestination".

But shorty--God does not predestine someone straight to hell.

Yeah but in the end he still knows the final outcome way before unless I'm missing something?
 
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elopez

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Well anyways we all know that god is omniscient right?
Yes. God has knowledge of everything. Everything including past, present, and future. God has knowledge of all of creation eternally.

So doesn't that mean our story plays out or something? It kinda be like me writing book or something and I knew the whole story before it even started.
What do you mean plays out? Of course what God knows eternally transpires the exact way He sees it. That analogy works to an extent, though I prefer to use that of a person looking into a fortune reveling crystal ball. Imagine there is a crsytal ball that reveals the future. All you have do is think of something you want to know and peer into the ball. The ball will then reveal what will happen. It is not the viewer, seeing the future in the ball that causes it to happen. The event happening and those who bring it about is what is being forseen.

Also wouldn't this affect free will as well.
Yes. Free will cannot be defined in the libertarianism sense. Either free will is compatible with foreknowledge, or it is not, and we do not have it. I believe they are compatible.
 
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I don't know but like I was sleepy and then this came to mind and it kinda made me courious. Well anyways we all know that god is omniscient right? So doesn't that mean our story plays out or something? It kinda be like me writing book or something and I knew the whole story before it even started. Also wouldn't this affect free will as well. This is just a curious question so yeah :p

That is a matter of dispute amongst Christians. Personally I would say that the answer is yes, without going into any deeper theology.

To quote the Westminster Confession of Faith:
By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.
 
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Albion

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I don't know but like I was sleepy and then this came to mind and it kinda made me courious. Well anyways we all know that god is omniscient right? So doesn't that mean our story plays out or something? It kinda be like me writing book or something and I knew the whole story before it even started. Also wouldn't this affect free will as well. This is just a curious question so yeah :p
Hi. Here's a quick way to look at it. God knows the future, but if he doesn't force what happens TO happen, he's not predestining anything. That's what advocates of Free Will would say.

As for the question asked in the title of this thread, those who believe that God not only sees the future but arranges it usually (but not always) think that he chooses those whom he elects to save...but leaves the others to their own devices. This necessarily means that they will be lost because we all sin, but he's not making them sin; he's simply chosen other people (the Elect) to be forgiven for theirs and passed these people by.
 
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Albion

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My op.. predestined only if certain choices are made.. destiny changes as choices are made, and He does know the end result of each choice yea. He's probably seen it all ummm 1000 trillion times or more..
To me, that doesn't seem to make sense. Predestining something means making it happen. Knowing that something will happen is another matter.
 
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LoveJesusAndLive

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To me, that doesn't seem to make sense. Predestining something means making it happen. Knowing that something will happen is another matter.
Maybe.. this is a bit of a guessing game for me too, just working with how I was saved.. and led.. bad choices.. good choices.. gotta admit there things He's told me not to do and I have done them anyway, simply forgetting Him, and I've suffered pretty hard each and every time.. a few times not dozens.. promises I've made Him though the bible says don't make promises.. I think He knows it's so hard for us to keep them.. truly I'm pretty sure we are all predestined to be saved. For whatever reason, some people simply don't want God in their lives.. I think that's important, the need maybe has to exist.
 
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oi_antz

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Yeah but in the end he still knows the final outcome way before unless I'm missing something?
I reckon so. Does this lead to another question, or did you have some reason to doubt it? I actually can't see the purpose for this question yet.
 
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Dr.J0sh

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I reckon so. Does this lead to another question, or did you have some reason to doubt it? I actually can't see the purpose for this question yet.

Well like if he knows the end result of the person then isn't it futile to put that said person knowing he's going to fail in the end and suffer?
 
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Albion

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Well like if he knows the end result of the person then isn't it futile to put that said person knowing he's going to fail in the end and suffer?
Maybe the answer is that God has established that men will reproduce men...and it's not as though he decides whether or not to create each one of us individually.
 
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oi_antz

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Well like if he knows the end result of the person then isn't it futile to put that said person knowing he's going to fail in the end and suffer?
I do not believe this to be the case. I have not seen scriptures that indicate everlasting suffering, but total destruction. There is Revelation 14:11, though as we can see this is not the typical sinner being described, but it is a person who has supported the regime of the one who wars against God's people and who sets himself up as God. Those who support that regime have no rest forever and ever. Given the scenario according to scripture, that a person is raised to judgment and determined unfit for everlasting life, no single one of them will be saying that God is wrong to make that decision. Even those who are saved will not be saying they deserve it. These sorts of questions only appear as problems due to unreliable doctrines that are not rooted in scripture.
 
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Albion

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I do not believe this to be the case. I have not seen scriptures that indicate everlasting suffering, but total destruction.
From my POV (and perhaps that of Dr. JOsh also), this scenario doesn't change much, if anything, of importance.
 
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oi_antz

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From my POV (and perhaps that of Dr. JOsh also), this scenario doesn't change much, if anything, of importance.
The suffering is an important distinction, because it is the real problem he has here. Though it is a problem only present on the context of everlasting torment.
 
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Albion

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The suffering is an important distinction, because it is the real problem he has here. Though it is a problem only present on the context of everlasting torment.
Yeh, I get that many people think eternal suffering is unthinkable, but OTOH the question can just as easily be posed like this: "How could a good God create people who had no chance of being saved but were necessarily going to be annihilated?" For some people, that might be a critical difference, but I think that more would say it's not a lot better.
 
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oi_antz

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Yeh, I get that many people think eternal suffering is unthinkable, but OTOH the question can just as easily be posed like this: "How could a good God create people who had no chance of being saved but were necessarily going to be annihilated?" For some people, that might be a critical difference, but I think that more would say it's not a lot better.
I don't understand why. To be gone and no longer suffering is much different than to be confined to inescapable torment. One of these is simply a solution to a problem, the other is rather cruel.
 
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Dr.J0sh

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Maybe the answer is that God has established that men will reproduce men...and it's not as though he decides whether or not to create each one of us individually.

I always thought god made everyone special? Like I've heard it a lot like god made before you were born or you were made special and stuff idk etc. Unless that's wrong o.o
 
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Dr.J0sh

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I don't understand why. To be gone and no longer suffering is much different than to be confined to inescapable torment. One of these is simply a solution to a problem, the other is rather cruel.

Well even if so it'd still be kinda useless to make someone to be destroyed and that's the whole purpose. Not only that but from what I read you think hell isn't real and I'm here like whoa lol. But yeah I always thought hell was like what all Christians believed and now I guess I'm wrong o_O
 
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