Dobri Dobrev and Other Peasants

[prodromos]

Being pro-simplicity is not the same as being anti-technology.

 

[Hermit76]

no reservations needed. you can be maskless if you are singing as per the diocese.

So, you've never required reservations? I was told that was directly from the bishop. Why were you exempt?

 

[All4Christ]

I think it does... Also, remember that widespread availability of scripture was what allowed it to be taken out of context where every man is his own Pope. Protestantism is the bastard child of modernity

You think being able to read scripture without having clergy or someone more educated than yourself is a bad thing??

 

[Hermit76]

Being pro-simplicity is not the same as being anti-technology.

I don't disagree. And please notice that I never even got to discuss solutions etc. You never do on here because people are afraid of discussing such things.

Look at my OP... What is so radical about that observation? Tell me!
Probably the same string of radical that suggests we don't trust big pharma with a brand new vaccine...
It goes against those who love their modern Orthopods

 

[tapi]

Here we see the result of the toxic influence of some Orthodox, especially those in the ranks of clergy, disseminating their baseless ideas through the internet (should we consider them modernists ) on display. These folks are inciting people to attack the Church, they target the dioceses, parishes, people who are trying to do their best in their position (be it pastoral or not). They think they are the only ones right, while their conception represents not even 1% of the Church. They create this illusion of a huge apostasy within the Church, which simply does not align with the truth. Unfortunately some people go along with their theories and this can cause some deep issues.

If one would read, say, the statements by the ruling council of Athos, or lets say, 100 random takes on the coronavirus sitution by Orthodox clergy, there will be probably 1 or even less that aligns with, say Heers take, according to which the Church has at large capitulated before the "Zionists and the Globalists". Yet some people are drawn to this stuff, which the authors spread with great zeal, and this can scandalize people or even turn people away from the Church.

It is a very sad situation to see, especially when one knows people who are trying their best to build up the Church and they are being called out as traitors without real justifications. They would deserve better than to be without grounds be called apostates.

 

[All4Christ]

...

 

[Hermit76]

You think being able to read scripture without having clergy or someone more educated than yourself is a bad thing??

No, but I do think that reading scripture without the guidance and instruction of the church is very dangerous. Guttenberg didn't print his Bible in conjunction with any church. Heck, he probably chose the Bible because he was in debt and thought it would sell. Let's not over glorify history to suit our needs. The Bible is no more the property of the individual than the Holy Elements are. If you doubt the destructive power of independent scripture publishing stop into a Protestant bookstore and find your favorite themed Bible.

 

[Hermit76]

Here we see the result of the toxic influence of some Orthodox, especially those in the ranks of clergy, disseminating their baseless ideas through the internet (should we consider them modernists ) on display. These folks are inciting people to attack the Church, they target the dioceses, parishes, people who are trying to do their best in their position (be it pastoral or not). They think they are the only ones right, while their conception represents not even 1% of the Church. They create this illusion of a huge apostasy within the Church, which simply does not align with the truth. Unfortunately some people go along with their theories and this can cause some deep issues.

If one would read, say, the statements by the ruling council of Athos, or lets say, 100 random takes on the coronavirus sitution by Orthodox clergy, there will be probably 1 or even less that aligns with, say Heers take, according to which the Church has at large capitulated before the "Zionists and the Globalists". Yet some people are drawn to this stuff, which the authors spread with great zeal, and this can scandalize people or even turn people away from the Church.

It is a very sad situation to see, especially when one knows people who are trying their best to build up the Church and they are being called out as traitors without real justifications.

Tapi... Could you tell us your thoughts on gay marriage, women clergy, abortion, and the literal existence of eternal torment for those outside of God's church?

 

[Hermit76]

Here we see the result of the toxic influence of some Orthodox, especially those in the ranks of clergy, disseminating their baseless ideas through the internet (should we consider them modernists ) on display. These folks are inciting people to attack the Church, they target the dioceses, parishes, people who are trying to do their best in their position (be it pastoral or not). They think they are the only ones right, while their conception represents not even 1% of the Church. They create this illusion of a huge apostasy within the Church, which simply does not align with the truth. Unfortunately some people go along with their theories and this can cause some deep issues.

If one would read, say, the statements by the ruling council of Athos, or lets say, 100 random takes on the coronavirus sitution by Orthodox clergy, there will be probably 1 or even less that aligns with, say Heers take, according to which the Church has at large capitulated before the "Zionists and the Globalists". Yet some people are drawn to this stuff, which the authors spread with great zeal, and this can scandalize people or even turn people away from the Church.

It is a very sad situation to see, especially when one knows people who are trying their best to build up the Church and they are being called out as traitors without real justifications. They would deserve better than to be without grounds be called apostates.

Plus, I don't listen to Fr. Heers. I get his emails but they remain unopened. I can think for myself. And my eyes can still see for themselves.

 

[tapi]

Tapi... Could you tell us your thoughts on gay marriage, women clergy, abortion, and the literal existence of eternal torment for those outside of God's church?

First two: I do not promote or see them happening within the Church (reserving a theoretical chance for the second IF God would, for whatever reason, will it. This would require that the Church accept this unanimously via an Ecumenical council).

Abortion: It's a terrible thing and should be minimized by all sensible means.

Eternal torment: I hope that no-one would have to undergo anything like that and I pray that all could be saved, while trying to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling (weak as though my effort might be). Further than that I cannot know, or say. I leave it up to God.

 

[Hermit76]

First two: I do not promote or see them happening within the Church (reserving a theoretical chance for the second IF God would, for whatever reason, will it. This would require that the Church accept this unanimously via an Ecumenical council).

Abortion: It's a terrible thing and should be minimized by all sensible means.

Eternal torment: I hope that no-one would have to undergo anything like that and I pray that all could be saved, while trying to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling (weak as though my effort might be). Further than that I cannot know, or say. I leave it up to God.

Do you think the first two are morally justified?
Is abortion a sin in your eyes?

 

[Hermit76]

And why do those who oppose modernity always get labeled as followers of Heers, zealots, etc?

Tell me... How should we label you enlightened ones?

Also, when Fr. Heers was posting on here why didn't any of you have the intestinal fortitude to address your objections directly with him?

 

[All4Christ]

No, but I do think that reading scripture without the guidance and instruction of the church is very dangerous. Guttenberg didn't print his Bible in conjunction with any church. Heck, he probably chose the Bible because he was in debt and thought it would sell. Let's not over glorify history to suit our needs. The Bible is no more the property of the individual than the Holy Elements are. If you doubt the destructive power of independent scripture publishing stop into a Protestant bookstore and find your favorite themed Bible.

I grew up evangelical, so I am aware of the potential pitfalls. Any belief system or practice divorced from the Church is dangerous. That said, the fathers of our church encouraged scripture reading at home. For example, St John Chrysostom exhorted people to read regularly. It wasn’t something that was limited to the elite few or to monastics and clergy.

I also always entreat you, and do not cease entreating you, not only to pay attention here to what I say, but also when you are at home, to persevere continually in reading the divine Scriptures.



When I have been with each of you in private, I have not stopped giving you the same advice. Do not let anyone say to me those vain words, worthy of heavy condemnation, "I cannot leave the courthouse, I administer the business of the city, I practice a craft, I have a wife, I am raising children, I am in charge of a household, I am a man of the world; reading the Scriptures is not for me, but for those who have been set apart, who have settled on the mountaintops, who keep this way of life continuously [i.e. monastics].”



What are you saying, man? That attending to the Scriptures is not for you, since you are surrounded by a multitude of cares? Rather it is for you more than for them. They do not need the help of the divine Scriptures as much as those do who are involved in many occupations. The monks, who are released from the clamor of the marketplace and have fixed their huts in the wilderness, who own nothing in common with anyone, but practice wisdom without fear in the calm of the quiet life, as if resting in a harbor, enjoy great security; but we, as if tossing in the midst of the sea, driven by a multitude of sins, always need continuous and ceaseless aid of the Scriptures. They rest far from the battle, and so they do not receive many wounds; but you stand continuously in the front rank, and you receive continual blows. So you need more remedies. Your wife provokes you, for example, your son grieves you, your servant angers you, your enemy plots against you, your friend envies you, your neighbor curses you, your fellow soldier trips you up, often a law suit threatens you, poverty troubles you, loss of you property gives you grief, prosperity puffs you up, misfortune depresses you, and many causes and compulsions to discouragement and grief, to conceit and desperation surround us on all sides, and a multitude of missiles falls from everywhere.



Therefore, we have a continuous need for the full armor of the Scriptures.



For recognize, it is written, that you go through the midst of snares and walk on the ramparts of the city. For example, the designs of the flesh attack more fiercely those who live in the midst of the world.



A handsome face, a splendid body strikes us in the eyes; a shameful phrase piercing our ears troubles our mind; and often an effeminate song weakens the tension of our soul.



But why am I saying this? That which often seems the slightest of all these attacks, the scent of perfume falling from courtesans as they pass somewhere nearby has captured and taken us away as prisoners by a mere accident. And there are many things like these which besiege our souls: we need the divine medicines to heal the wounds which we have received and to protect us from those which we have not yet received but will receive.



We must thoroughly quench the darts of the devil and beat them off by continual reading of the divine Scriptures.



For it is not possible, not possible for anyone to be saved without continually taking advantage of spiritual reading.



Actually, we must be content, if even with continual use of this therapy, we are barely able to be saved. But when we are struck every day, if we do not use any medical care, what hope do we have of salvation?



Reading the Scriptures is a great means of security against sinning. The ignorance of Scripture is a great cliff and a deep abyss; to know nothing of the divine laws is a great betrayal of salvation. This has given birth to heresies, this has introduced a corrupt way of life, this has put down the things above. For it is impossible, impossible for anyone to depart without benefit if he reads continually with attention.

(from On Wealth and Poverty)

 

[Hermit76]

I grew up evangelical, so I am aware of the potential pitfalls. Any belief system or practice divorced from the Church is dangerous. That said, the fathers of our church encouraged scripture reading at home. For example, St John Chrysostom exhorted people to read regularly.

I'm not arguing against this. I was responding to the argument that the tech of modernity is good because it gives widespread access to scriptures. I'm saying that scripture that is given out of context (99.999999999999999999999999972% of mass produced scripture) is harmful.
If you're reading scripture because St. John encouraged it then you're probably reading it in context.

 

[ArmyMatt]

So, you've never required reservations? I was told that was directly from the bishop. Why were you exempt?

at the outbreak, yes, reservations were required. but it didn't last long. they have not been required for a long time. the bishop that I serve under pays attention to local areas, so a lot depends on your local area. mine hasn't had a real issue with COVID.

 

[tapi]

Do you think the first two are morally justified?
Is abortion a sin in your eyes?

To me, the scriptures and the tradition are clear, "male and female He made them", with marriage between man and woman as the intended way towards salvation. I do not support, promote or see gay marriage as a thing that should be advanced in the Church, or ever enter into the dogma and practice of the Church.

Despite this, the passion itself is a pastorally sensitive and complex issue and this should not be forgotten, despite the frustration some ideological movements and truly mad things taking place may put on us in this age.

Female clergy: I could personally fathom, from my personal theological POV, the theoretical possibility of such a thing happening. Only if God would will it, and it be sanctioned through the due process of a legitimate Ecumenical Council.

Abortion: Of course it is a sin and a grievous one.

Heers posting:

I do not read this forum everyday, nor have the time or energy to write. Had I been aware and equipped with the time to do any discourse, I would have done it. I doubt it would have brought much fruit however, he is definitely set on his course.

 

[Hermit76]

To me, the scriptures and the tradition are clear, "male and female He made them", with marriage between man and woman as the intended way towards salvation. I do not support, promote or see gay marriage as a thing that should be advanced in the Church, or ever enter into the dogma and practice of the Church.

Despite this, the passion itself is a pastorally sensitive and complex issue and this should not be forgotten, despite the frustration some ideological movements and truly mad things taking place may put on us in this age.

Female clergy: I could personally fathom, from my personal theological POV, the theoretical possibility of such a thing happening. Only if God would will it, and it be sanctioned through the due process of a legitimate Ecumenical Council.

Abortion: Of course it is a sin and a grievous one.

Heers posting:

I do not read this forum everyday, nor have the time or energy to write. Had I been aware and equipped with the time to do any discourse, I would have done it. I doubt it would have brought much fruit however, he is definitely set on his course.

I had you mixed up with someone ekse. I apologize.

However, let's take the female clergy answer. I would say that position is decisive, and dangerous. Who should we blame for that position you have? You seem to blame others for our bad influences. Who influences you?

 

[All4Christ]

I’m guessing I missed some context to this since I didn’t see anything with Fr Heers - and I don’t really even know what he promoted.

 

[tapi]

I had you mixed up with someone ekse. I apologize.

However, let's take the female clergy answer. I would say that position is decisive, and dangerous. Who should we blame for that position you have? You seem to blame others for our bad influences. Who influences you?

Well, I clearly stated that in my personal (and quite possible erroneous) analysis there would be, again, a theoretical possibility of such a thing happening. I took that to imply I consider it unlikely, and made it clear that the only possible way for any such thing to happen is under the guidance of the Holy Spirit through a legitimate Ecumenical Council.

You can disagree with my view, but I leave all the fail safes in place and in no way claim that any such action be taken. In fact, I do not even wish it, as it is completely up to God who He wants to serve Him. I leave it up to Him. I just do not see a complete objection in the scriptures and tradition. Just my personal take based on my own conscience having read the Scriptures, Fathers and modern theologians.

 

[Hermit76]

at the outbreak, yes, reservations were required. but it didn't last long. they have not been required for a long time. the bishop that I serve under pays attention to local areas, so a lot depends on your local area. mine hasn't had a real issue with COVID.

Ah... Well my son's did. They never responded when he tried to make a reservation despite his consistent attendance when he's on campus. AnOther person I know was ignored although he left a Protestant pastorate to enter Orthodoxy. He is now going nowhere. Over and over and over I hear stories of abandonment by the church because of their adherence to modernity's rules. Yet, priests like yourself just ignore these very real questions in order to justify your support and marriage with modernity.
I've quietly watched people get shamed on here because of their views. Heck, Tapi can't even credit anyone who questions the modern manifestation of the church with having their own thoughts. You were very quick to remind me to not question technology. If one questions the vaccine... Heers follower! If someone questions lock downs and forced limitations to the Divine Services... Conspiracy Theorist and Covid Spreader! Oh, and if you take any of those positions and you're ROCOR then you better just not speak at all.