Do you believe Jesus is God?

[Vanhin]

Indeed, we claim that the spirits of mankind are the offspring of God the Father, and thus we are all "gods". But no other beings will ever be the object of our worship.

That is blasphemy. The Scriptures clearly reveal that YHWH is Immutable (Mal.3:6) which means that He does NOT sire finite (or Infinite) offspring?! Only YHWH Exists as Divine and human spirit is NOT Divine in essence.

I have told you whom I worship, and you have not accepted it, and you have done so with no reason to think that I am lying to you.

Also, with the exception of one instance, when I was trying to show that our other scriptures agree with the Bible, I have only referenced the Bible to support my beliefs, and you won't even address those references. John 17:21-22, for example, where Christ clearly defines his oneness with the Father. Christ is one with the Father because he obeys his will, and by following the Christ, we can be one with the Father.

And then... You claim that I blaspheme in saying that we, as the spirit offspring of God are ourselves gods. By so doing, you prove that your doctrine is not based on the teachings of Jesus Christ, or his disciples, which teachings are found in the Bible, because they have taught the same doctrines.

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. (Act 17:28-29)​

In other words, there is no reason for us to argue about the nature of God. He's not a man made idol, or some mysterious being that we cannot comprehend - He is our Father, and we are his offspring. We were created in God's image and likeness, both male and female (Gen. 1:26-27).

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? (John 10:34-36)​

Does the Son of God, quoting scripture, also blaspheme in calling us gods? No, because it is an eternal truth - we are God's offspring.

Regards,
Vanhin

 

[Simonline]

I have told you whom I worship, and you have not accepted it, and you have done so with no reason to think that I am lying to you.

That's because I don't believe that you are 'lying' to me. Au contrare, I believe that you are speaking with all sincerity. However, I also believe that you have been deceived by the lying spirits that control the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (2Cor.4:4). That is because your statements concerning the god(s) whom you claim to worship are based upon the teachings of the LDS which are at complete variance with the Judeo-Christian Scriptures as the revealed Word of God.

Also, with the exception of one instance, when I was trying to show that our other scriptures agree with the Bible, I have only referenced the Bible to support my beliefs, and you won't even address those references.

On the basis of very good evidence (The Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Ralston Martin Walter Martin's Religious InfoNet - Kingdom of the Cults and articles from the Reach Out Trust Reachout Trust - Building a Bridge of Reason I do not accept that the Scriptures of the LDS agree with the Judeo-Christian Scriptures.

It isn't the Biblical references with which I have a problem but your misinterpretation of those references in accordance with the teachings of the LDS. I have sought to expose and refute only your misinterpretations of the Bible not the Biblical text itself.

John 17:21-22, for example, where Christ clearly defines his oneness with the Father. Christ is one with the Father because he obeys his will, and by following the Christ, we can be one with the Father.

But that isn't the only way in which the Messiah is 'one with the Father' a way that we can in deed share. The Son, as the Messiah, the human incarnation of YHWH, is also one in essence with His Father in a way that the disciples could never be (Jn.20:17(b)). The Messiah is the Son of the Father by Nature whilst the disciples are sons of God merely by adoption (Jn.1:12-13). It is this that you are deliberately ignoring.

And then... You claim that I blaspheme in saying that we, as the spirit offspring of God are ourselves gods.

Like I said, that is blasphemy. We are absolutely not the 'spirit' offspring of God (?!) and absolutely nowhere in the Bible does it say (or even imply) that we are. You have been taught to read that into the Bible because of your LDS indoctrination.

We are not capable of being 'gods' in the Divine sense because, as the Scriptures declare, there is but one Divine God (Isa.43:10-13) Who is Infinite, Eternal, Immutable, Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent etc. As finite creatures we are not capable of existing as any of those things. To believe that we are the natural offspring of God is absolute delusion?!

By so doing, you prove that your doctrine is not based on the teachings of Jesus Christ, or his disciples, which teachings are found in the Bible, because they have taught the same doctrines.

I prove no such thing. It is your teachings that are heretical, not mine. What I believe is completely consistent with the Divine Revelation that is the Judeo-Christian Scriptures as I am demonstrating for all to see.

The Messiah and His apostles have definitely not taught the same doctrines as the LDS. They were/are orthodox Jews not Mormons or even Gentile Christians. Please don't try and insult my intelligence by trying to claim that the Messiah and His apostles were Mormons following the blasphemous ideas of the LDS or this discussion ends here and now?!

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. (Act 17:28-29)

In other words, there is no reason for us to argue about the nature of God. He's not a man made idol, or some mysterious being that we cannot comprehend - He is our Father, and we are his offspring. We were created in God's image and likeness, both male and female (Gen. 1:26-27).

Clearly, your concept of God is just another regular finite human creature?! Trust me, that is nothing like the God of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures.

YHWH is Spirit (Jn.4:24) absolutely non-corporeal. He is also Immutable (Mal.3:6) which means that He has NEVER been anything other than Spirit. As such He is Infinite (without limit), Eternal (without Time), Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, etc. He is NOT simply a bigger, more powerful version of us (?!). God is inscrutable (Isa.40:18,25; 46:5; 55:8-9). God is too great for any finite creature to even begin to exhaustively comprehend though He has graciously deigned to reveal something of Himself to us which is the only way that we know absolutely anything about Him.

That being said, it cannot possibly be true that we as finite human creatures are finite spirit offspring of the Infinite Divine Creator?! The very idea is absurd. Whilst we are created in the likeness of our Creator (Gen.1:26-27) that does not mean that we are His natural offspring?!

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? (John 10:34-36)

Does the Son of God, quoting scripture, also blaspheme in calling us gods? No, because it is an eternal truth - we are God's offspring.

Regards,
Vanhin

Talk about taking Scripture totally out of context?! This is a classic example. The context is Jn.10:22-39 where the Messiah is being challenged about His identity by the unbelieving Jews. The Jews ask the Messiah to tell them plainly if He is the Messiah? The Messiah replied that He has already told them but they refuse to believe Him. The Messiah also tells them that the miracles He does also testify to His identity but again the Jews do not believe Him because they are not His sheep. The Messiah then tells them about His sheep, how they listen to His voice, He knows them and they follow Him. He gives them eternal life and they shall never perish. No-one can snatch them out of my hand (these are claims that only God can make). The Messiah then declares that His Father, Who is greater than all, has given His sheep to Him and no-one can snatch them out of the Father's hand. The Messiah then declares that He and His Father are One (in other words, that He is the human incarnation of God). The unbelieving Jews get very angry about this and try and stone the Messiah to death. The Messiah asks them for which of His miracles they are seeking to stone Him? The Jews reply that they are not trying to stone Him for any of His miracles but for His blasphemy in declaring Himself to be God.

The Messiah then makes reference to Psalm 82:6 in a classic rabinical 'kal v' chomer' [from the lesser to the greater] argument.

Firstly, in the original Hebrew text of Psalm 82 the word translated 'gods' in v.6 [elohim] can be translated 'God', 'gods', 'judges' or 'angels'.

"Elohim ['God'] stands in the congregation of El ['God']:
He judges among the elohim [judges/angels/gods]:
'How long will you judge unjustly?...
I have said 'You are elohim [judges/angels/gods],
All of you are sons of the Most High.'
Nevertheless you will die like a man,
and fall like one of the princes.'
Arise Elohim [God (the Judge)] and judge the Earth,
for you will inherit all the nations."

The first and last elohim means God but all the rest should be rendered 'judges' or 'angels' (i.e. those who do the bidding of another (i.e. God)).

What the Messiah is arguing is that, according to the Jews' own Scriptures, if humans who do evil works as they judge unjustly are declared by the Scriptures (which cannot be broken) to be elohim then how much more is the Messiah, who does good works, Elohim and if 'all of you are sons of the Most High', and yet are evil, then how much more does the description 'Son of God' apply to the Messiah...so why are you trying to stone me to death?!

The Messiah is definitely NOT endorsing your heretical theology that we are all the spirit offspring of a finite god?! As I said, He's Jewish, not Mormon.

Simonline.

 

[Jpark]

Here's what I wrote somewhere else that shows that Jesus is God. I edited it a little:

According to the Bible, God came to earth as a Man named Jesus.

Scripture evidence for His divinity:

Phil. 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God...

Could it be more plain than this: "He existed in the form of God"?

Eph. 4:10, Jeremiah 23:24 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things). ..."Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD

Jeremiah 23:24 essentially says God exists in all. However, the created is not God for God transcends the created (2 Chronicles 6:18). Furthermore, Eph. 4:10 imputes God's Omnipresence to Jesus. Col. 3:11 says "...Christ is... in all".

When read with Phil. 2:6, we see that God came to earth as a man, temporarily lived as a man, died as a man, and this man was bodily raised from the dead and His body was changed into a spiritual body and He ascended beyond the heavens and was one with God again.

1 John 1:2, 5:20 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us-- ...And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ This is the true God and eternal life.

In 1 John 1:2, Jesus is identified as eternal life. 1 John 5:20 identifies eternal life as the true God.

Furthermore, John 17:3 says "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

1 John 5:20 says "the Son of God has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true."

So 1 John 5:20 actually says the Son of God has given us understanding so that we may know the Father.

BUT WAIT, 1 John 5:20 says "we are in Him who is true, IN HIS SON JESUS CHRIST". The One "who is true" is "His Son".

There is no use denying it if you are believer of the New Testament. Jesus is God.

Counter Scriptures:

1. Matt. 24:36 only the Father knows the second coming of His Son

Refutation: Only the Holy Spirit knows the thoughts of the Father (1 Cor. 2:11). Jesus is identified as the Holy Spirit in 2 Cor. 3:17. Furthermore, Scripture indicates that Jesus had insight into the spiritual realm, He knew about abiding in the Father and knew that God was with Him on the cross, and many instances show Him having Omniscience. Phil. 2 indicates that He was merely concealing His divinity (Phil. 2:7). Therefore, Jesus knew His second coming.

2. Matt. 27:46 Jesus stated that He was forsaken by the Father

Refutation: Jesus repeatedly stated that He was abiding in the Father. According to Scripture, those who continually abide in the Father have His presence with them all the time. Furthermore, Scripture attests that He was obedient to the point of death (Phil. 2:8). So He knew He was not forsaken. So why the cry of dereliction? Because Jesus was human.

However, Jesus is no longer a human being. The NASB says Jesus dwelt with humanity. The Codex Sinaiticus renders it as tabernacled. That indicates temporariness. Jesus is now a Spirit (in the same form as God) and fills all things. And even if He has a spiritual body (the result of the resurrection mentioned in Matt. 22:30 and 1 Cor. 15:42-44, 51-52 and which Jesus experienced), He is no longer human.

3. John 10:30 merely means that Jesus and God was one in agreement, Jesus' claim in John 10:30 was that He was the Son of God (indicated by verse 24 and 36), not that He was God

Refutation: Jesus and God were one in agreement and in unity. God was always with Jesus and Jesus always felt God's presence.

John 17:21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

The second argument is the undoing of this counter Scripture. John 10:33 equates the Son of God with God. Earlier, they had asked if He was the Christ. Furthermore, John 5:18 says "For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." So to be the Son of God is to be equal with God and to be God.

So John 10:30 supports Jesus' divinity.

Assertion: God can't come in bodily form.

Refutation: Luke 3:22 shows that He can. And if Jesus was God in bodily form, then God can come in multiple bodily forms simultaneously while remaining as God!

 

[Superfast]

Here's what I wrote somewhere else that shows that Jesus is God. I edited it a little:

According to the Bible, God came to earth as a Man named Jesus.

Scripture evidence for His divinity:

Phil. 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God...

Could it be more plain than this: "He existed in the form of God"?
​

Like a gingerbread cake in the form of a house is a house, or a cake in the form of a cat is a cat, or a house in the form of a submarine is a submarine. Or a bar of soap in the form of a gun is a gun. Bet a lot of convicts wish that was true.

Eph. 4:10, Jeremiah 23:24 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things). ..."Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD

Jeremiah 23:24 essentially says God exists in all. However, the created is not God for God transcends the created (2 Chronicles 6:18). Furthermore, Eph. 4:10 imputes God's Omnipresence to Jesus. Col. 3:11 says "...Christ is... in all".

When read with Phil. 2:6, we see that God came to earth as a man, temporarily lived as a man, died as a man, and this man was bodily raised from the dead and His body was changed into a spiritual body and He ascended beyond the heavens and was one with God again.

1 John 1:2, 5:20 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us-- ...And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ This is the true God and eternal life.

In 1 John 1:2, Jesus is identified as eternal life. 1 John 5:20 identifies eternal life as the true God.

Furthermore, John 17:3 says "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

1 John 5:20 says "the Son of God has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true."

So 1 John 5:20 actually says the Son of God has given us understanding so that we may know the Father.

BUT WAIT, 1 John 5:20 says "we are in Him who is true, IN HIS SON JESUS CHRIST". The One "who is true" is "His Son".

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

John 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.


1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
​

There is no use denying it if you are believer of the New Testament. Jesus is God.

Counter Scriptures:

1. Matt. 24:36 only the Father knows the second coming of His Son

Refutation: Only the Holy Spirit knows the thoughts of the Father (1 Cor. 2:11). Jesus is identified as the Holy Spirit in 2 Cor. 3:17. Furthermore, Scripture indicates that Jesus had insight into the spiritual realm, He knew about abiding in the Father and knew that God was with Him on the cross, and many instances show Him having Omniscience. Phil. 2 indicates that He was merely concealing His divinity (Phil. 2:7). Therefore, Jesus knew His second coming.

So the one your with is the one you are.

2. Matt. 27:46 Jesus stated that He was forsaken by the Father

Refutation: Jesus repeatedly stated that He was abiding in the Father. According to Scripture, those who continually abide in the Father have His presence with them all the time. Furthermore, Scripture attests that He was obedient to the point of death (Phil. 2:8). So He knew He was not forsaken. So why the cry of dereliction? Because Jesus was human.

So Jesus asked God why he forsook him cause he was human but god didn't really forsake him, Jesus just said it cause he was human. didn't really happen or are you just thinking out loud?

However, Jesus is no longer a human being.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


the bible says there is (not was) one mediator the man Christ Jesus. you say Jesus isn't a man.

The NASB says Jesus dwelt with humanity. The Codex Sinaiticus renders it as tabernacled. That indicates temporariness. Jesus is now a Spirit

After Jesus was resurrected he said he wasn't a spirit, but you say he is a spirit.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

(in the same form as God) and fills all things. And even if He has a spiritual body (the result of the resurrection mentioned in Matt. 22:30 and 1 Cor. 15:42-44, 51-52 and which Jesus experienced), He is no longer human.

3. John 10:30 merely means that Jesus and God was one in agreement, Jesus' claim in John 10:30 was that He was the Son of God (indicated by verse 24 and 36), not that He was God

Refutation: Jesus and God were one in agreement and in unity. God was always with Jesus and Jesus always felt God's presence.

John 17:21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

The second argument is the undoing of this counter Scripture. John 10:33 equates the Son of God with God. Earlier, they had asked if He was the Christ. Furthermore, John 5:18 says "For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." So to be the Son of God is to be equal with God and to be God.

the jews accused Jesus of 2 things blasphemy and making himself equal with God. so Jesus commited blasphemy and made hiimself equal with God because unbelieveing Jews said so.

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

So John 10:30 supports Jesus' divinity.

Assertion: God can't come in bodily form.

Refutation: Luke 3:22 shows that He can. And if Jesus was God in bodily form, then God can come in multiple bodily forms simultaneously while remaining as God!

Thus, some of the reasons why we non trinitarians find trinitarian reasoning extremely faulty. It boggles my mind how you could possibly say some of this stuff.
​

 

[Jpark]

Like a gingerbread cake in the form of a house is a house, or a cake in the form of a cat is a cat, or a house in the form of a submarine is a submarine. Or a bar of soap in the form of a gun is a gun. Bet a lot of convicts wish that was true.

What about "did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped"? Paul seems to say that Jesus was equal with God.

Thus, some of the reasons why we non trinitarians find trinitarian reasoning extremely faulty. It boggles my mind how you could possibly say some of this stuff.
​

So you don't believe God can come in bodily form? Then what are theopanies? And how do you explain Luke 3:22? What do you believe the Holy Spirit is?

After Jesus was resurrected he said he wasn't a spirit, but you say he is a spirit.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
​

Then how did He appear and disappear at will? Jesus did not experience the kind of resurrection Lazarus experienced. He experienced the resurrection He revealed in Matt. 22:30 and which was elaborated by Paul in 1 Cor. 15.

So He might not be a Spirit (how do you explain Eph. 4:10 which says He "fills all things"? Surely He is a Spirit), but that doesn't make a difference. He is not a human being.

Can a human being appear out of nowhere inside a locked room (John 20:19, 26)? Can a human being disappear in a instant (Luke 24:31)?

Anyways, Jesus said He was not a spirit.

But He never said He was not a Spirit (John 4:24), the uncontainable (2 Chronicles 6:18) immaterialness God is.

How do you explain 1 Cor. 15:45, which says that He is a spirit?

 

[Superfast]

What about "did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped"? Paul seems to say that Jesus was equal with God.

What about a bar of soap in the form of a gun is a gun? Do you think that the problems with your logic go away if you ignore them and talk about something else? they don't.

The devil though equality with God was a thing to be grasped and look what happened to the devil. Jesus was smart enough to know to not make the same mistake the devil made.

So you don't believe God can come in bodily form? Then what are theopanies? And how do you explain Luke 3:22? What do you believe the Holy Spirit is?

I believe God manifests himself as a human at times, but he doesn't change into a human. I believe it's all an illusion. However he does it the bible doesn't say.

the use of luke 3.22 to prove the trinity isnt any proof. Just casue the verse says the Father said and then it says the holy spirit descended doesn't mean God's holy spirit is one person and God the father is another person. that conclusion of yours contradicts scripture that says there is only one god. my conclusion that the holy spirit is the spirit of the one and only real god, God the Father doesn't contradict any scripture. If I say 'My soul doth magnify the Lord" does that mean my soul is one person and I'm another person ? no. neither does god personifying his spirit mean his spirit is one person and he is another.

Then how did He appear and disappear at will?

He did it with his immortal body, which is a new and improved human fleshly body with new abilities. we too will get the new and improved immortal body at the resurrection. How does he do it? I can only speculate since the bible doesn't say. But I will say this our bodies are mostly empty space. Molecules which make up our bodies are largely empty space. so god can make our molecules line up so that they can avoid the molecules of a house wall and thus enable the immortal body of Jesus to pass through walls.

Jesus did not experience the kind of resurrection Lazarus experienced. He experienced the resurrection He revealed in Matt. 22:30 and which was elaborated by Paul in 1 Cor. 15So He might not be a Spirit (how do you explain Eph. 4:10 which says He "fills all things"? Surely He is a Spirit), but that doesn't make a difference. He is not a human being.

So 1 tim 2.5 says Jesus is (not was) a man and you say he isn't a man cause eph. 4.10 says "fills all things." I fail to see any logic at all in this reasoning of yours.

Can a human being appear out of nowhere inside a locked room (John 20:19, 26)? Can a human being disappear in a instant (Luke 24:31)?

Your still trying to prove that l tim 2.5 and luke 24.39 aren't true by using scripture to contradict them.

[SIZE=+0](NKJV) 1 Timothy 2:5 For [there is] one God and one Mediator between God and men, [the] Man Christ Jesus, [/SIZE]
So 1 tim 2.5 says Jesus is not was a man, so you disprove it by quoting john 20.19

(NKJV) John 20:19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, "Peace [be] with you."

so 1 tim 2.5 says Jesus is not was a man, but you disprove it and say Jesus was not a man cause John 20.19 says Jesus entered a room where the doors were shut.

Anyways, Jesus said He was not a spirit.

But He never said He was not a Spirit (John 4:24), the uncontainable (2 Chronicles 6:18) immaterialness God is.

So your reasoning is that since Jesus said in luke 24.39 that he wasn't a spirit, he is a certain kind of spirit, he is an omnipresent , omniscent spirit that is God.. Like if I said I'm not a woman, that would mean I might be the queen of England.


You say He (Jesus ) never said he was not a spirit then cite john 4.24 which says God is a spirit. I presume you mean that Jesus is a spirit based on john 4.24 cause you believe Jesus is god. to me luke 24.39 disproves your conclusion that Jesus is a spirit based on john 4.24.. To you, apparently, john 4.24 disproves luke 24.39.

How do you explain 1 Cor. 15:45, which says that He is a spirit?

Jesus is the spiritual man, and adam is the carnal man. we are all carnal humans, but God is calling us to all be spiritual humans, not spirits. We are to be like christ who is the spiritual man, we are not to be like carnal unsaved men are.

(Rotherham) 1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a body of the soul, it is raised a body of the spirit; if there is a body of the soul (carnal), there is also of the spirit:-- (spiritual)


(Rotherham) 1 Corinthians 15:45 Thus, also, it is written--The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.


1 cor. 15.45 doesn't disprove 1 tim 2.5 and luke 24.39. 1 Cor. 15.45 must be interpreted to not contradict or disprove 1 tim. 2.5 and luke 24.39.

 

[Woldeyesus]

Here's what I wrote somewhere else that shows that Jesus is God. I edited it a little:

CONCLUSION: All the claims in the Scriptures are inconclusive proof of Christ's divine identity and absolute authority. Christ agrees!

Better late than never in identification of Christ's divine works! (John 5: 31-36; 10: 37-38)

 

[he-man]

You say He (Jesus ) never said he was not a spirit then cite john 4.24 which says God is a spirit. I presume you mean that Jesus is a spirit based on john 4.24 cause you believe Jesus is god. to me luke 24.39 disproves your conclusion that Jesus is a spirit based on john 4.24.. To you, apparently, john 4.24 disproves luke 24.39.


Jesus is the spiritual man, and adam is the carnal man. we are all carnal humans, but God is calling us to all be spiritual humans, not spirits. We are to be like christ who is the spiritual man, we are not to be like carnal unsaved men are.

(Rotherham) 1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a body of the soul, it is raised a body of the spirit; if there is a body of the soul (carnal), there is also of the spirit:-- (spiritual)


(Rotherham) 1 Corinthians 15:45 Thus, also, it is written--The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

Luke 24:36-39 And he said unto them, Why are you troubled? And why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones, as you see me have.

 

[Simonline]

Here's what I wrote somewhere else that shows that Jesus is God. I edited it a little:


Originally Posted by Me

According to the Bible, God came to earth as a Man named Jesus.

Scripture evidence for His divinity:

Phil. 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God...

Could it be more plain than this: "He existed in the form of God"?

Eph. 4:10, Jeremiah 23:24 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things). ..."Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD

Jeremiah 23:24 essentially says God exists in all. However, the created is not God for God transcends the created (2 Chronicles 6:18). Furthermore, Eph. 4:10 imputes God's Omnipresence to Jesus. Col. 3:11 says "...Christ is... in all".

When read with Phil. 2:6, we see that God came to earth as a man, temporarily lived as a man, died as a man, and this man was bodily raised from the dead and His body was changed into a spiritual body and He ascended beyond the heavens and was one with God again.

1 John 1:2, 5:20 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us-- ...And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ This is the true God and eternal life.

In 1 John 1:2, Jesus is identified as eternal life. 1 John 5:20 identifies eternal life as the true God.

Furthermore, John 17:3 says "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

1 John 5:20 says "the Son of God has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true."

So 1 John 5:20 actually says the Son of God has given us understanding so that we may know the Father.

BUT WAIT, 1 John 5:20 says "we are in Him who is true, IN HIS SON JESUS CHRIST". The One "who is true" is "His Son".

There is no use denying it if you are believer of the New Testament. Jesus is God.

Counter Scriptures:

1. Matt. 24:36 only the Father knows the second coming of His Son

Refutation: Only the Holy Spirit knows the thoughts of the Father (1 Cor. 2:11). Jesus is identified as the Holy Spirit in 2 Cor. 3:17. Furthermore, Scripture indicates that Jesus had insight into the spiritual realm, He knew about abiding in the Father and knew that God was with Him on the cross, and many instances show Him having Omniscience. Phil. 2 indicates that He was merely concealing His divinity (Phil. 2:7). Therefore, Jesus knew His second coming.

2. Matt. 27:46 Jesus stated that He was forsaken by the Father

Refutation: Jesus repeatedly stated that He was abiding in the Father. According to Scripture, those who continually abide in the Father have His presence with them all the time. Furthermore, Scripture attests that He was obedient to the point of death (Phil. 2:8). So He knew He was not forsaken. So why the cry of dereliction? Because Jesus was human.

However, Jesus is no longer a human being. The NASB says Jesus dwelt with humanity. The Codex Sinaiticus renders it as tabernacled. That indicates temporariness. Jesus is now a Spirit (in the same form as God) and fills all things. And even if He has a spiritual body (the result of the resurrection mentioned in Matt. 22:30 and 1 Cor. 15:42-44, 51-52 and which Jesus experienced), He is no longer human.

3. John 10:30 merely means that Jesus and God was one in agreement, Jesus' claim in John 10:30 was that He was the Son of God (indicated by verse 24 and 36), not that He was God

Refutation: Jesus and God were one in agreement and in unity. God was always with Jesus and Jesus always felt God's presence.

John 17:21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

The second argument is the undoing of this counter Scripture. John 10:33 equates the Son of God with God. Earlier, they had asked if He was the Christ. Furthermore, John 5:18 says "For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." So to be the Son of God is to be equal with God and to be God.

So John 10:30 supports Jesus' divinity.

Assertion: God can't come in bodily form.

Refutation: Luke 3:22 shows that He can. And if Jesus was God in bodily form, then God can come in multiple bodily forms simultaneously while remaining as God!
​

Like most modern Christians you are completely confused about the incarnation and wrongly believe that the terms 'Messiah/Christ' and 'Jesus of Nazareth' are interchangable?! Nothing could be further from the truth (see my previous posts on this thread (saves me writing it all out again)).

YHWH not Jesus of Nazareth is the Divine Creator. Jesus of Nazareth not YHWH is the human creature. The Son existing as the Messiah/Christ is both Divine Creator and human creature. Simple!

For the record, God CANNOT come as multiple bodily forms whilst simultaneously remaining as God at all.

Simonline.
​

 

[Simonline]

What about "did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped"? Paul seems to say that Jesus was equal with God.

No. What Paul was declaring was that the Son, prior to incarnating as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth, was the One of the Three Persons of the One Tri-Personal Divine Creator, YHWH.

So you don't believe God can come in bodily form? Then what are theopanies? And how do you explain Luke 3:22? What do you believe the Holy Spirit is?

The Incarnation is NOT a theophany. A theophany is God appearing to men in the form of a creature whilst not actually existing as that creature (in other words the theophany is temporary). The Incarnation (there can be only one) is God appearing to men not only in the form of the creature but actually existing as that creature as well (Heb.2:17) which is why the Messiah/Christ exists as two natures (one Divine and the other human (a.k.a. the hypostatic union)) and not just one nature like the rest of us.

The manifestation of the Holy Spirit at the baptism of the Messiah was a theophany of God unlike the Messiah Himself who is the Incarnation of God.

Then how did He appear and disappear at will? Jesus did not experience the kind of resurrection Lazarus experienced. He experienced the resurrection He revealed in Matt. 22:30 and which was elaborated by Paul in 1 Cor. 15.

Lazarus did not experience a resurrection. What he experienced was being raised from the dead (Lazarus died again, a second time). It is the Messiah, not Lazarus who is 'the firstborn over all creation' (Col.1:15) i.e. the first person ever to have been resurrected (i.e. raised to life never to die again).

So He might not be a Spirit (how do you explain Eph. 4:10 which says He "fills all things"? Surely He is a Spirit), but that doesn't make a difference. He is not a human being.

Then God was lying (Heb.2:17)?! The Messiah simultaneously exists as both Divine Creator (Jn.8:58; 10:30-33) and human creature (Jn.14:28; Heb.2:17). This is how the Messiah exhibits both Divine and human attributes.

Can a human being appear out of nowhere inside a locked room (John 20:19, 26)? Can a human being disappear in a instant (Luke 24:31)?

Yes! Absolutely! But only a human creature who has undergone resurrection. Any human creature who has not undergone resurrection cannot yet do what the Messiah can now do as a resurrected human creature.

Anyways, Jesus said He was not a spirit.

That's because, as a resurrected human creature, He definitely wasn't just a 'ghost'.

But He never said He was not a Spirit (John 4:24), the uncontainable (2 Chronicles 6:18) immaterialness God is.

That's because the Messiah is the human incarnation (Matt.1:23) of God (Isa.43:10-13) and therefore by definition exists as Spirit (Jn.4:24).

How do you explain 1 Cor. 15:45, which says that He is a spirit?

The Messiah is a life-giving spirit because He is the human incarnation of God.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

CONCLUSION: All the claims in the Scriptures are inconclusive proof of Christ's divine identity and absolute authority. Christ agrees!

No. The Judeo-Christian Scriptures have been left for us by God Himself (1Tim.3:16-17; Heb.4:12-13) as a permanent record (Jn.20:31) and therefore are conclusive not inconclusive. The Messiah is the human incarnation of God Himself (Isa.43:10-13; Matt.1:23; Jn.1:1,14).

Simonline.

 

[cubinity]

Woldeyesus posted:

CONCLUSION: All the claims in the Scriptures are inconclusive proof of Christ's divine identity and absolute authority. Christ agrees!

To which you replied:

No. The Judeo-Christian Scriptures have been left for us by God Himself (1Tim.3:16-17; Heb.4:12-13) as a permanent record (Jn.20:31) and therefore are conclusive not inconclusive. The Messiah is the human incarnation of God Himself (Isa.43:10-13; Matt.1:23; Jn.1:1,14).

I don't agree with your reply. You tag verses to each claim EXCEPT the one that applied: the claims in Scripture are conclusive.

This indicates to me that conclusiveness is a subjective assumption you've made from the facts you can support, namely that the Scriptures are from God and a permanent record.

Neither of those supportable facts, however, prove or even support the claim that Scripture is conclusive about this issue.

Therefore, IMO you are yet to provide a reasonable defense for your, "No."

 

[Rora]

Absolutely!

 

[patience7]

In the direct scripture records of Christ's accused blasphemy; never once did he say he was God.

Matt. 26:61-65 . . . .I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days. (John 2:21 temple of his body, resurrection, John 10:17,18 . . This commandment I have of my Father)
62) . . .Answerest thou nothing?
63) . . . And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
64) . . Thou hast said: (he didn't come back and say, I am God)
65). . .He hath spoken blasphemy, what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now we have heard his blasphemy.

Mark 2:7 Why doth this man speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? (also Luke 5:21)
10) But that ye may know that the son of man hath power. .
(who gave him this power? Matt. 9:8 But when the multitude saw it, they marvelled and glorified God, which had given such power unto men. John 5:26,27 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, . .)
Mark 14:61-62. . .Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am. . .

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God, (by the power that God gave him and was manifested by him - John 5:26,27)
36) Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God.

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you,. . . Paul and the apostles taught us that Jesus Christ was the Son of God.

 

[Son of Israel]

Some peoples "god" is their belongings.
Other peoples "god" is their profession.
Other peoples "gods" can be anything that takes all their focus, time, energy and resources.

Anyone can choose their own God.

Here is MY choice, as was Thomas's choice;

(Joh 20:28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Jesus would have rebuked Him of course, if He was wrong. But Jesus accepted worship from him and us, as the only true One God of Israel can.


My God was tempted.
What other God was tempted?
If God was some other "person" than Jesus, He wouldn't have been tempted, He wouldn't have overcome temptation.
I sure don't worship a god that hasn't overcome temptation. That kind of God would be worthless to me or anyone else.


My God overcame sin and death.
What other "God" ever overcame sin and death? Who but God in Jesus could??
If God was some other "person" than Jesus, He wouldn't have overcome sin and death.
I sure don't worship a god that didn't personally overcome sin and death. That kind of god would be worthless to me.


My God was resurrected.
What other "God" was ever resurrected?
If God was some other person than Jesus, there would have been no resurrection.
I sure don't worship a god that didn't personally come forth in resurrection from the dead. That kind of god would be worthless to me.


My God fills me with His Holy Spirit.
His Name is Jesus.
What other "holy spirit" exists except for Christ glorified and come into us?? I sure don't receive a "holy spirit god" that isn't Jesus resurrected and glorified and come into me. That would be a worthless "holy spirit" to me.


Is Christ in you?

(Col 1:27) To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


Or is this all still a mystery?

It is clear to me who MY God is

And NO OTHER PERSON is like my God Jesus!

 

[Jpark]

[SIZE=+0](NKJV) 1 Timothy 2:5 For [there is] one God and one Mediator between God and men, [the] Man Christ Jesus,[/SIZE]

Yes, I am aware that plainly says "the man Christ Jesus".

But how does a man fill all things (Eph. 4:10) and be in all (Col. 3:11)? Also notice that Eph. 4:6 says "God is in all". And how do you explain Jeremiah 23:24, which says God fills the heavens and the earth?

I believe God manifests himself as a human at times, but he doesn't change into a human. I believe it's all an illusion. However he does it the bible doesn't say.

the use of luke 3.22 to prove the trinity isnt any proof. Just casue the verse says the Father said and then it says the holy spirit descended doesn't mean God's holy spirit is one person and God the father is another person. that conclusion of yours contradicts scripture that says there is only one god. my conclusion that the holy spirit is the spirit of the one and only real god, God the Father doesn't contradict any scripture. If I say 'My soul doth magnify the Lord" does that mean my soul is one person and I'm another person ? no. neither does god personifying his spirit mean his spirit is one person and he is another.

I wasn't trying to prove the Trinity. I stated, "Here's what I wrote somewhere else that shows that Jesus is God".

Heck, I only accept the Trinity because of one Scripture (Gen. 1:26-27) and because of confirmations from God. Gen. 1:26-27 has only two (correct me if I'm wrong) plausible explanations: the royal we or God is a Trinity. I was once Oneness (and I possibly still am) and was hostile towards this doctrine but after receiving confirmation, I reluctantly accepted it, although I still don't understand it.

Anyways, you said that the Holy Spirit is God Himself. And that is very true, that the Holy Spirit is God Himself. Hand of God, face of God, glory of God, and presence of God indicate that the Holy Spirit is God.

So Luke 3:22 actually says:

and God descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove...

So how can you say God doesn't change into a human? Since it's possible for Him to change into a animal or a entity resembling a animal while remaining as God, then He should be able to come in bodily form as a man and remain as God.

Luke 3:22 (Codex Sinaiticus) and the Holy Spirit came down, in a bodily form like a dove, upon him, and a voice came from heaven: Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I am well pleased,

This leaves no room for dismissal. So how can you dismiss this as a manifestation?

Do you at least believe that it is possible for Him to come in bodily form in any likeness while remaining as God?

 

[Jpark]

For the record, God CANNOT come as multiple bodily forms whilst simultaneously remaining as God at all.

Simonline.
​

Then what's Luke 3:22? Manifestation? The Holy Spirit is not God? Surely it is possible for God to come in multiple bodily forms at once while remaining as God.

 

[Superfast]

wasn't trying to prove the Trinity. I stated, "Here's what I wrote somewhere else that shows that Jesus is God".

Heck, I only accept the Trinity because of one Scripture (Gen. 1:26-27) and because of confirmations from God. Gen. 1:26-27 has only two (correct me if I'm wrong) plausible explanations: the royal we or God is a Trinity.

I believe it is neither. I believe Gen. 1.26 is a prophetic apostrophe. (Apostrophe means speaking to someone who isn’t there) Gen. 1.26 has God speaking to Christ who isn’t there saying make man in our image. Another example of prophetic prophecy would be when God said to Jesus before he was born and before it happened “ this day have I begotten thee.
Gen 1.26 is where God declares the end from the beginning. The end of man is to be made in the image of god and Christ.

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

I was once Oneness (and I possibly still am) and was hostile towards this doctrine but after receiving confirmation, I reluctantly accepted it, although I still don't understand it.

Anyways, you said that the Holy Spirit is God Himself. And that is very true, that the Holy Spirit is God Himself. Hand of God, face of God, glory of God, and presence of God indicate that the Holy Spirit is God.

So Luke 3:22 actually says:

and God descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove...

So how can you say God doesn't change into a human? Since it's possible for Him to change into a animal or a entity resembling a animal while remaining as God, then He should be able to come in bodily form as a man and remain as God.

the verse actually says God descended in bodily appearance not form. Changing ones appearance isn’t changing into something else. God just appeared to descend in some kind of body like a dove descends. It doesn’t say his appearance was the appearance of a dove, though that may be true.

Rotherham) Luke 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended, in bodily appearance, as a dove, upon him,--and, a voice out of heaven, came--Thou, art my Son, the Beloved, in thee, I delight.:

The Greek word in luke 3.22 is not morphe it is Eidos which primarily means outward appearance.
Rotherham) Luke 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended, in bodily appearance, as a dove, upon him,--and, a voice out of heaven, came--Thou, art my Son, the Beloved, in thee, I delight.

This leaves no room for dismissal. So how can you dismiss this as a manifestation?

Do you at least believe that it is possible for Him to come in bodily form in any likeness while remaining as God?

I know that God appeared to Jacob as a human, but I believe he just had the appearance of a human, and it just appeared to Jacob that Jacob was wrestling with God. Luke 3.22 supports that view, IMO.


Is there a verse that says God ever came in bodily form? I know of none. so for me to say he can't or can't would be just my opinion. I need scripture saying God changed into some body, or god came in some bodily form. As far as I know there are none, Luke 3.22 doesn't say it either.

 

[Jpark]

I believe it is neither. I believe Gen. 1.26 is a prophetic apostrophe. (Apostrophe means speaking to someone who isn’t there) Gen. 1.26 has God speaking to Christ who isn’t there saying make man in our image. Another example of prophetic prophecy would be when God said to Jesus before he was born and before it happened “ this day have I begotten thee.
Gen 1.26 is where God declares the end from the beginning. The end of man is to be made in the image of god and Christ.

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

That's a interesting take. But doesn't John 1 say the Word was with God in the beginning? What about Proverbs 8?

the verse actually says God descended in bodily appearance not form. Changing ones appearance isn’t changing into something else. God just appeared to descend in some kind of body like a dove descends. It doesn’t say his appearance was the appearance of a dove, though that may be true.

Rotherham) Luke 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended, in bodily appearance, as a dove, upon him,--and, a voice out of heaven, came--Thou, art my Son, the Beloved, in thee, I delight.:

The Greek word in luke 3.22 is not morphe it is Eidos which primarily means outward appearance.
Rotherham) Luke 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended, in bodily appearance, as a dove, upon him,--and, a voice out of heaven, came--Thou, art my Son, the Beloved, in thee, I delight.

I see.

I know that God appeared to Jacob as a human, but I believe he just had the appearance of a human, and it just appeared to Jacob that Jacob was wrestling with God. Luke 3.22 supports that view, IMO.

Ok.

Is there a verse that says God ever came in bodily form? I know of none. so for me to say he can't or can't would be just my opinion. I need scripture saying God changed into some body, or god came in some bodily form. As far as I know there are none, Luke 3.22 doesn't say it either.

Then I must find one!

 

[Alive_Again]

I hung out with a cult group for a little while and just listened. They had a seemingly convincing argument that seemed plausible because of the deadness of the denomination I grew up in. They denied the trinity. I wasn't sure anymore and needed convincing. What you fellowship with, you partake of. A deceiving spirit worked among them. Watch out for cults!

If you've already made up your mind against it, that's not being teachable. If you're really seeking and want God to show you, He will!

I was reading the scripture in Matthew about Jesus being the Emmanuel and the stronghold was broken off and I "saw" it in my spirit that He was divine. I was born again on the spot! I've collected many scriptures regarding the Father, the Word of God we know as Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. I can't believe I was so deceived, but the scripture is convincing in MANY ways. I'd be happy to share them if anyone wants to read them. I've taken the main phrase from each one and listed them consecutively for an easy, but convincing glance.

Someone preached a messaged entitled something like: "If Jesus wasn't God, then He was the greatest imposter in history!"