Do you believe in the rapture?

[kindredAngel777]

I know i have been to many chat rooms, And ALOT of people in there thinks us Christians will go through the tribulation without no rapture.

Do you believe there will be a Rapture?


I do.

 

[kindredAngel777]

bump

 

[BabtizedintheFire]

Yes there will be a rapture. But if you are walking right with GOD. Then you wont have to see the Second part of it. The days are comming short. And it will be on us soon. But, Rember to walk right with GOD and you wont have to see the second part

 

[kindredAngel777]

thats right!

wonders if it will be soon? *lurks around* heh

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

http://www.christianforums.com/t727770

Forgive me...

 

[Iosias]

Do you believe there will be a Rapture?

I do.

As do I...a pre-tribulational rapture!

 

[Netzari5730]

I know i have been to many chat rooms, And ALOT of people in there thinks us Christians will go through the tribulation without no rapture.

Do you believe there will be a Rapture?


I do.

The rapture theory is based around the resurrection of the dead in Messiah. Now, we know that Messiah will return and gather together His elect to be with him for ever. The question, is when? Many scriptures that are used to support the rapture are mainly scriptures that have to be interpreted or implied as being (pre-trib) rapture material. There are actually few scriptures, other than the basic ones that say Messiah will return, that describe the EVENTS of His second coming itself. A careful examination of these scripture alone should verily show us that the rapture will not occur until after the tribulation.

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Yeshua/Jesus died and rose again, even so G`d will bring with Him those who sleep in Yeshua/Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the L`rd, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the L`rd will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the L`rd Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of G`d. And the dead in Messiah will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the L`rd in the air. And thus we shall always be with the L`rd. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."[7] (1 Cornithians 15:51,52)

In these two portions of scripture a trumpet is mentioned, that it will sound, and the dead will be raised first and then we who are alive and remaining will be changed and caught up to the L`rd. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 doesn’t say if this is the last trumpet or not, though 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 does. It is important to note, that in 1 Corinthians 15:51,52, this is the only place in these that mentions a "last trumpet" concerning these events. Not even Revelation (11: 15) mentions a last trumpet, only that "the seventh angel sounded". So Revelation (11:15) does not indicate a last trumpet either. And also, 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 it says nothing about being caught up together with the dead in Messiah to meet Him in the air as it does in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. But we can certainly see that these two portions compliment each other and are speaking of the same thing– the resurrection of the sleeping believers which happens before the living believers change and are caught up with them. Now, if we compare these things with what Messiah Himself says, we find that this event doesn’t happen until after the tribulation:

Matthew 24:29-31

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days…

and what is the tribulation of those days called? It is called "those days (that) there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be." Mark 13:19, and Matthew 24:21: "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be." This is the very Tribulation that the Book of Revelation reveals.

Matthew 24:29-31goes on to say:

…the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Notice a trumpet is here mentioned as well, which coincides with 1 Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians, and it is not indicated as being the "last trumpet", however it does occur after the seventh trumpet in Revelation since it is after the tribulation of those days, and it is obviously well after the start of the tribulation (when the pre-trib rapture is supposed to occur) since it is "after the tribulation of those days". Notice also that those of us who remain "shall be caught up together with them (the dead in Messiah) in the clouds to meet the Lord" for "He will send His angels… and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" Mark 13:27 says: "from the fartherest parts of the earth to the farthest parts of heaven." Which would indicate those from Paradise awaiting the resurrection, and those "who are alive and remain."

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

(Mark 13:24-27)

Notice here, that Mark is speaking of the same exact thing as Matthew, 1 Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians, however, a trumpet is not mentioned in Mark, just like the voice and the shout of the archangel isn’t mentioned in any of them except 1 Thessalonians. But and however, it is clear by looking at the scriptures alone that these four portions are referring to the same event and compliment each other. In conclusion, the rapture will happen, but not until after the tribulation, when Messiah will return. It is an event that will occur at the resurrection of the believers, which is mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6, which, it is obvious, happens after the tribulation, despite the concept that Revelation is not always chronological.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Yeshua/Jesus and for the word of G`d, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Messiah for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of G`d and of Messiah, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4-6)

Now I know that there are a lot of scriptures telling us that we are not appointed to wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9) and will not be made to go through the hour of temptation or trial (Revelation 3:10) and such. These are still valid points.

We are not appointed unto wrath if in fact we are in Yeshua/Jesus. Look at the children of Israel in Egypt when it was being plagued and beaten down by G`d, may He always be blessed! They were still there in the midst of it all, but the plagues did not touch them. The tribulation has been compared to the plagues of Egypt time and time again, that those things were a foreshadow of things to come. If this is so, and there is a connection, then it is quite possible that we believers will be here during the tribulation. And if we are, we have no need to be worried or frightened at the things that will occur, for we will be kept from that wrath just as Israel was, for we are not appointed to wrath.

We are kept from the hour of trial not necessarily by being taken from out of the world during this time, as I have explained above. Sh’moth/Exodus 6:6,7 states: "I am Hashem, I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Mitz’rayim (Egyptians), I will rescue you from their bondage, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great judgments. I will take you as my people and I will be your G`d." When were they taken from out of Egypt? Before or after the judgments were poured out on the Egyptians? Egypt represents the world, and the children of Israel represents the believers. We see here that Israel was still in Egypt during the judgments, yet they were kept from the judgments, and Divinely protected. Some would say that Goshen represents some spiritual place were the church is raptured to, however, Goshen was still in Egypt, therefore, we will still be in the world.

Now concerning the Elect of which it is written: "then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds." Who are they? Are they merely the Jewish people who will be saved during the tribulation as some assume? Or are they every believer in Yeshua the Messiah, both Jew and Gentile?

Colossians 3:9-13:
9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Messiah is all and in all. 12 Therefore, as the elect of G`d, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Messiah forgave you, so you also must do.

In Yeshua...
Netzari5730

 

[adamdavid]

This subject came up on another message board I participate in... The question was asked, 'do you believe in the rapture, pre-trib, post-trib, or mid-trib?', and as I responded there, I shall share the same response with you lovely CF folks...

As I believe that I have a destiny that was ordained by God, I have come to see things like the rapture as rather insignificant... I have seen the arguments, and the favorable pre-trib seems to make sense to my mind... But in the long run, my life is just something to be used by God, and if that means him needing me during some tribulation, so be it... His hand will still be on me...

Blessings...
AdamDavid

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I used to believe in the rapture. Not any more.
Now I believe we will be resurrected "after the tribulation of those days (which will be the greatest trib of all time), at the "last trump", on the "last day", when the "first resurrection" occurs. Just like Jesus, Paul, and John said.



P.S. I see Netzari5730 presented all the scriptures from which I drew my phrasology. Good Job!

 

[Lynn73]

Yes, I believe in a pre-tribulation Rapture of Christ's church.

Re 3:10

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

There's absolutely no reason for Christ to put His bride through the tribulation hour. It's not for the church. After the letters to the churches in the book of Revelation, there's no mention of the church after that. After each letter, you see "let him that hath an ear hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." During the tribulation, you hear "he that hath an ear let him hear." The church is gone.

 

[Angelus00]

http://www.christianforums.com/t727770

Forgive me...

amen

 

[Ginsu]

I believe in a pre-trib rapture. A once in a history event.

 

[Netzari5730]

Yes, I believe in a pre-tribulation Rapture of Christ's church.

Re 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

There's absolutely no reason for Christ to put His bride through the tribulation hour. It's not for the church.

Let me reiterate:

We are not appointed unto wrath if in fact we are in Yeshua/Jesus. Look at the children of Israel in Egypt when it was being plagued and beaten down by G`d, may He always be blessed! They were still there in the midst of it all, but the plagues did not touch them. The tribulation has been compared to the plagues of Egypt time and time again, that those things were a foreshadow of things to come. If this is so, and there is a connection, then it is quite possible that we believers will be here during the tribulation. And if we are, we have no need to be worried or frightened at the things that will occur, for we will be kept from that wrath just as Israel was, for we are not appointed to wrath.

We are kept from the hour of trial not necessarily by being taken from out of the world during this time, as I have explained above. Sh’moth/Exodus 6:6,7 states: "I am Hashem, I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Mitz’rayim (Egyptians), I will rescue you from their bondage, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great judgments. I will take you as my people and I will be your G`d." When were they taken from out of Egypt? Before or after the judgments were poured out on the Egyptians? Egypt represents the world, and the children of Israel represents the believers. We see here that Israel was still in Egypt during the judgments, yet they were kept from the judgments, and Divinely protected. Some would say that Goshen represents some spiritual place were the church is raptured to, however, Goshen was still in Egypt, therefore, we will still be in the world.

After the letters to the churches in the book of Revelation, there's no mention of the church after that. After each letter, you see "let him that hath an ear hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." During the tribulation, you hear "he that hath an ear let him hear." The church is gone.

Then who are the "tribulation Saints" if they are not of the Body of Christ, i.e. the Church. There is no mention of anyone else being saved during that time period either, it doesn't mean that there wont be any one saved then. What you are saying is merely an interpretive view without solid scriptural basis.

Many things may be implied through scripture. Like, for instance, God is a spaceman who flies around in a UFO, read Ezekiel for details. Now we all know that He is not a spaceman because of what scripture plainly says about Him, but the discription in Ezekiel can very well be interpreted as such a lie as it is seen in the Urantia Theology...er... or is alienology?

Who saves the 144,000 during this time period? Who will show them the gospel? "Oh, perhaps they will come to their senses when the rapture happens." Where is that written? Let me guess. It's implied. The discourse concerning the rapture that I have presented is based entirely upon scripture with little interpretation. Whereas much, if not all of the pre-trib and mid-trib rapture theories are based upon implied meaning and interpretations that are not necessary, especially when the interpretation takes away from and/or alters and contradicts the plain text and its plain meanings.

Plain texts: "The dead in Christ will rise first (interpretation: First resurrection), then we (interpretation: the Church) who are alive and remaining will be caught up together with them...etc" (1 Thessalonians 4:16,17) and: "...This is the first resurrection." Revelation 20:5 (interpretation: When is this to happen? This event is recorded to happen after the tribulation, as Messiah Himself said: "And immediately after the tribulation of those days...they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. and he will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet -1 Thess 4:16; 1 Cor 15:51,52- and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Matthew 24:29-31 -Mark 13 states: "...from the farthest parts of earth ~ interpretation: Those who are alive and remaining ~ to the farthest parts of heaven ~ interpretation: Those who are asleep in Christ but are alive with Him in Paradise.")

In Yeshua...
Netzari5730

 

[Ave Maria]

I believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

 

[JVD]

There may be a rapture...but I think likely not.

The argument that christ will not put his bride through the tribulation is wishful thinking. There are many christians right now suffering no worse than any tribulation could cause them to suffer. A christian in a North Korean prison is feeling the tribulation right now. Christians can and will suffer. This thought of christians escaping the tribulation is I believe mainly denial of reality by us in the western world.

I saw somewhere that that there were more christian martyrs in the 20th century than in any other century since Christ. I believe the 21st century will be even harder on christians. But...The Church is strengthened by adversity.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

There may be a rapture...but I think likely not.

The argument that christ will not put his bride through the tribulation is wishful thinking. There are many christians right now suffering no worse than any tribulation could cause them to suffer. A christian in a North Korean prison is feeling the tribulation right now. Christians can and will suffer. This thought of christians escaping the tribulation is I believe mainly denial of reality by us in the western world.

I saw somewhere that that there were more christian martyrs in the 20th century than in any other century since Christ. I believe the 21st century will be even harder on christians. But...The Church is strengthened by adversity.

I think that what will come after the rapture of the church will be worse than anything this world has ever seen. I do not think that the believers up to the time of the rapture will be around to have to endure it. I do think though that there will be those who come to Christ during the tribulation that will be suffering because they had not chosen Christ before the rapture. However, I think that those particular people will bring many to Jesus during that time.

I may be wrong, I don't know for 100% assurance on my rapture beliefs. One thing I do know is that in the end, whatever happens, I will be end up with God.

 

[Simon_Templar]

I believe there will be a rapture, but not pre-trib.

Many people who don't believe in pre-trib rapture, identify the word "rapture" with pre-trib and say they don't believe in a rapture.

The word rapture is taken from 2nd Thess "...and then we who remain alive shall be caught up to meet him..." rapture is actually a latin word which has been brought into the english language. Rapture means to catch away, etc. Thus if you were to read the bible in Latin, where the words "caught up" are it would say rapture (or some form there of). This is the rapture, and its going to happen, however, pretty much every scripture that refrences this event places it after the tribulation and "at the last trump" which seems pretty likely to refer to the 7th trump of revelation.

Furthermore, in that verse "caught up to meet him" the word "meet" there is greek apentisis, used only one other place in the bible when the elders of a town went out to of the town to meet an apostle who was coming to visit him, they formed a welcoming party along the road into town and escorted him back in to town. This was a common practice in the ancient world for welcoming rulers or famous people etc. this is what the verse in 2nd Thess is refering to. Not people disappearing from the earth but people literaly being gathered together to welcome Jesus as the conquering king and escort him into Jerusalem as he descends from the sky.

Likewise, the verse commonly used by pre-trib rapture people to paint a picture of people disappearing during the rapture which says "two people shall be in the field and one shall be taken and the other left..." etc. This is completely taking this verse out of context. If you read exactly before this verse it says "in those days it shall be like the days of noah when they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away." This verse is speaking of God's judgement coming suddenly on the wicked while they are unaware. The people being taken away are the wicked being taken by the judgement of God. This is similar to the parable of the wheat and the chaff in which Jesus says it is the wicked who will be removed and the righteous left.

 

[Crispie]

I bet if no one mentioned anything about rapture 99% of christians who read the bible wouldnt believe in the rapture. Im not 100% sure about it, but so far from all my readings Ive seen no rapture mentioned..

 

[TheScottsMen]

I bet if no one mentioned anything about rapture 99% of christians who read the bible wouldnt believe in the rapture. Im not 100% sure about it, but so far from all my readings Ive seen no rapture mentioned..

%99 of people who see a difference between the Church and the nation of Israel (exp: the Church did not replace Israel) will see a rapture.

 

[Father Rick]

A little bit of history on the origin of the doctrine of the 'Rapture'.

(Bear with me, 'cause I don't have my resources with me and and telling this from memory)

The Rapture theory has not been held by the historic church. All the 'old' churches (Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican) do not now, and never have, held to this doctrine as it was not part of the teachings of the early church.

About 1860, a woman in England (I forget her name) had a dream/vision in which she claims God gave her a 'new revelation'-- namely that of the Rapture of the Church. She shared this with her pastor, who renounced this vision as not being from God as it did not agree with the Biblical/historical teaching of the Church. She then went to a prayer group she was affiliated with and shared it with them. Some in that group did accept the vision as being from God and began to share it with others. The significance of the prayer group is that it included Scofield, who put this as study notes in the study Bible he printed. Because this doctrine was included in study notes in a Bible, then people assumed it had to be true, and began to teach it as fact. Outside of the U.S. and England, this doctrine is virtually unheard of-- with the exception of areas where U.S. missionaries have gone and taught it.

I questioned a missionary friend of mine who spent 20 years in Africa as to how this doctrine is received there. (He personally is VERY pre-trib rapture in his theology). His reply was that they all think this is just another American church fad.



What the church HAS taught historically is "Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again". It has been taught that Christ will come again to judge the living and that dead and His kingdom will have no end. It has been taught that those who are dead in Christ will rise again when He returns. Pretty much anything beyond that is speculation.