EnemyPartyII
Well-Known Member
Try not to confuse secular expedience with religious belief, huh?They prefer assassinations!
Upvote
0
Try not to confuse secular expedience with religious belief, huh?They prefer assassinations!
I noticed your faith icon is Messianic Judaism. It is interesting to note that Judaism for the most part does not agree with you. Scholars of Judaism agree with you that the death penalty is permissible by bible standards, [obviously since they dont follow the teachings of Jesus] but do not believe it is applicable to the modern world today, since you would have to have a near perfect justice system to justify its application. The justice system in the US is far from perfect. Israel has not executed anyone since 1962. As a matter of fact it was the only execution ever to take place in modern Israel. The person was a Nazi war criminal, Adolph Eichmann. He was responsible for the extermination of 6 million Jews. The evidence in the case was overwhelming, unlike 99 percent of the death penalty cases in the US. From your post you obviously disagree with the scholars of Judaism on this issue.
Seek
So, been away for a couple of weeks... where are we up to? Has anyone given a reasonable explanation of how execution is justifiable in any system where the possibility of executing an innocent person exists yet?
Thanks for the continuing posts which I read with interest. Just so you know I think this thread is the fastest growing on the forum. In 4 months we are nearly up to 1000 posts.
They prefer assassinations!
Try not to confuse secular expedience with religious belief, huh?
I noticed your faith icon is Messianic Judaism. It is interesting to note that Judaism for the most part does not agree with you. Scholars of Judaism agree with you that the death penalty is permissible by bible standards, [obviously since they don’t follow the teachings of Jesus] but do not believe it is applicable to the modern world today, since you would have to have a near perfect justice system to justify it’s application. The justice system in the US is far from perfect. Israel has not executed anyone since 1962. As a matter of fact it was the only execution ever to take place in modern Israel. The person was a Nazi war criminal, Adolph Eichmann. He was responsible for the extermination of 6 million Jews. The evidence in the case was overwhelming, unlike 99 percent of the death penalty cases in the US. From your post you obviously disagree with the scholars of Judaism on this issue.
Seek
Main article: Corporal punishment (Judaism)
While allowing for the death penalty in some hypothetical circumstances, scholars of Judaism are broadly opposed to the death penalty as practiced in the modern world.
Wow that's amazing that the scholars of Judaism, men who know the old testament inside out, oppose the death penalty. I guess that basiclly ends the debate. Jesus says a life for a life from the old testament is no longer in effect. The men who have spent a life studying the old testament say that you can't apply the death penalty to the modern world.That doesn't leave much left for pro death penalty. But I guess there are always weekend theologians who think they understand old testament law better than all the scholars of Judaism in the world and who don't take much salt in what Jesus said.
I'm sorry but this is an unbelievably spurrious argument.
I'm sorry but your argument is nothing short of laughable.
So who is really treating the Messiah with contempt by conveniently manipulating and/or ignoring his words when it doesn't suit them and then trying to justify themselves on the basis of spurrious arguments
Simonline.
I'm against it.I don't believe it's our place to punish someone, even if they've murdered someone. God will handle those who wrong us.
The word says, "Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: 'It is mind to avenge; I will repay,' says the Lord." - Romans 12:19
No one can argue with the word of God. That includes ALL wrongdoings, even those that people come up with to put criminals through the death penalty.
Besides, why waste our time killing someone when we can try to help them change or see what they did with the word of God?
You can't say that everyone would want to kill them. That's each persons choice. Yeah it is a horrible crime, but there are people out there who have mercy on those who do crimes like this. More mercy needs to be spread around because we're commanded by God to have mercy on others. We don't deserve mercy, but God gives it to us anyways, we should be able to do the same and set an example of how God's love works.If people are going to be killed for murder and whatever else crimes, then we might as well all be put to death because we're all guilty of crimes against God. Murder is a crime against God because it's against His creation and yet we're all guilty of crime against God's creation somehow, even if it's lying or being hateful. No sin is worse than another because it's simply sin.
Jesus didn't die on the cross so we'd be vengeful towards others, He died so that we might actually have mercy for each other. Jesus' blood covered everyone's sin, and that does not exempt murderers. Jesus died so that we might act like brothers and sisters in Christ and not be hateful or vengeful towards each other, even if those people aren't Christians, they deserve our love and God commands us to love them. The world isn't perfect, but that doesn't mean we have to go down with it.
Jesus didn't allow the woman in John 8 to be stoned because of her adultery. Murderers shouldn't be put to death because of their sin. Every sin is darkness and it's all bad. None of us can point fingers or say that someone deserves to die because we want vengeance or something of the sort.
God did say that Genesis 9:6, I remember reading it and it came to mind when replying to this, but Jesus' blood covered that because His blood covered all sin. No one is exempt from the blood of Jesus and if we have that attitude, then we need to check it and fast.
In most countries the Death penalty is used against murderers.Jesus tells us if we get angry at a brother or sister we have comitted murder. Hence we are all murderers.
We should all be executed seeing as we have all murdered.
I am against the DP
Hello-
No, I don't believe in the death penalty. Here's why:
If some of the reasons given for supporting that idea are that some people are just "born evil," I would like to bring to mind the concept of original sin. Technically, we are all born "fallen" in this case. There is the age of accountability (which I, too, believe in), but as it stands we are a fallen human race. For the most part, we all sin -babies do not sin; hence, the age of accountability. In the Bible, it states that because of this, because we are sinful, we all deserve death. This is why we must believe in Christ's sacrifice for us in order to become re-born and attain eternal life with the Father.
Someone might add that some sins are just different than others. According to whom? Us? Yes, there are certain crimes that are just too horrific for words, but in God's eyes I believe that He sees all sin as equivocable. If some sins were more or less offensive to Him, there would be an issue of pride or comparison with others ("Well, I may have had an affair with a married woman, but at least I didn't kill my wife like that one guy did!")
There are verses which speak of God's immense love for children, so I don't doubt that God is beyond-hurt when crimes are committed against His children. But, justice is the the Lord's. When we kill for retribution, we take that away from Him, figuratively-speaking. We are saying -in a sense- that God cannot handle certain affairs on His own. He needs us to butt-in and do some butt-kicking for Him. There are plenty of verses in the Bible which call for peace and look down upon acts of vengeance. God doesn't want us being about that. After all, for some crimes, there is no retribution. I mean, is there? Will killing someone else who killed someone else really bring about any peace? Would killing a convicted pedophile who later murdered his prey create any real peace or bring about any true sense of resolution? No amount of lethal injections could possibly be enough. See what I'm getting at?
Anyway, hope that helped!
Mercy, compassion, empathy, humility, forgiveness and Christ-like love
I am not your typical opponent of capital punishment. I have read so much about capital punishment that I have heard just about every argument for and against and every pro and con. Most opponents of capital punishment have one or more of the following objections to the institution:
1.) Unequal meting out of the death penalty. Low-income people, minorities and men receive a disproportionate number of death sentences. And murders of white people are punished by death at a greater rate than murders of minorities.
2.) Injustice. Low-income people dont get adequate legal representation. Their cases are handled by overworked court appointed defense attorneys. And similar disparities in justice between low-income and wealthy people, minorities and white people, etc.
3.) The risk of executing innocent people. The death penalty is irreversible.
4.) Losing the moral high ground. The death penalty brings everybody down to the level of the murderers.
5.) It doesnt bring back the murder victims.
6.) Expense. The death penalty costs more than life incarceration.
7.) Uncivilized. The death penalty is barbaric.
8.) Cruel and inhumane. The condemned suffers no matter what known method is used.
9.) Revenge. The death penalty is retribution.
10.) Life is precious. Even the worst killer can still live a productive life and do some good.
11.) It is not a deterrent. It doesnt prevent other murders.
12.) It incites murder. There have been exceptional cases where people have killed to be killed by the state.
...And many others that I have probably left out.
Lets suppose, however, that we could eliminate all unequal application of the death penalty. Meanwhile, lets suppose that we could eliminate all disparities in legal representation. And lets suppose that we could make executions completely painless and free of any suffering for the condemned. Even if we could eliminate those problems; eliminate all human error and never again convict an innocent person; and take care of all the other common objections to capital punishment, I would still be opposed to capital punishment.
I dont care if revenge motivates death penalty supporters or not. I dont care what convicted killers can and cannot do with the rest of their lives. I dont care if capital cases are more expensive, less expensive or cost the same as non-capital cases. I dont care if capital punishment is refined or is barbaric.
I dont care who does or does not end up on the moral high ground; people dont care about the moral high ground in most of their conduct, so why should they suddenly care about the moral high ground when dealing with a convicted murderer? The moral high ground should be where everybody wants to always be, never mind capital murder cases.
I dont care if executions dissuade no murderers or are so effective a deterrent that they end all murder. Even if executions were to end all killings legally defined as murder, I suspect that ecological reality would mean that the same number of people would be killed some other way.
Even if executing a killer could somehow miraculously bring back his victims, what would that accomplish? We would still be without a life--the only difference being that its the life of the one convicted in a court of law of committing murder rather than the life/lives he was convicted of taking. Either way, we all lose.
No, I dont oppose capital punishment for those reasons. Those objections are really objections to things like racism, inequality, injustice, waste, inefficiency, cruelty, inhumanity, incivility, disorder, anarchy, moral relativity, amorality, deviance and public danger.
What I object to is the conceit, arrogance, hypocrisy, self-righteousness, mean-spiritedness, hard-heartedness, and irrationality of most supporters of and participants in state sponsored executions.
Ill say it again: I have never detected an iota of humility in a supporter of and participant in state sponsored executions.
I have never heard a death penalty proponent say that executions are unfortunate. I have never heard a death penalty proponent say that executions are a tragedy that they wish could have been avoided. I have never heard a death penalty proponent say that executions are a necessary evil.
What I have gotten from supporters of state sponsored executions is that they find such executions to be very satisfying. They love an execution. They act like it is cause for celebration. They even go as far as saying that an execution would give them pleasure.
And they go out of their way to make it known that they never have and never will feel sorry for a condemned killer. Never.
Hmm. I have never heard of a condemned killer wanting anybodys sympathy anyway. I have never heard of a defender of a condemned killer calling for sympathy. The fact that those who relish the death penalty go out of their way to make it known that they dont feel sorry for the condemned shows how irrational their thinking is. Sympathy is irrelevant.
What is not irrelevant is mercy. And compassion. And empathy.
What is not irrelevant is humility.
What is not irrelevant is forgiving.
What is not irrelevant is love. Christ-like love. Nails-driven-in-your-sinless hands-so-that-sinners-can-be-forgiven love.
Capital punishment applied with mercy, compassion, empathy, humility, forgiveness and Christ-like love would be the death penalty.
But we dont have a death penalty. We have a murder penalty.
In a previous post you said people who are against the death penalty were ignorant and had a mindless attitude. Now you are saying anyone who disagrees with you on this topic is treating the Messiah with contempt? As if calling people stupid and bad makes you right and them wrong, on the contrary it makes people less prone to listen. Why do people always resort to insults when their arguments fall apart?
I am not a good debater but I have read some very strong biblically sound arguments against the death penalty and very little in defence of it but secular arguments and some completely illogical arguments. The only strong argument is old testament scripture but now I find even the jewish scholars who study thoroughly only follow the old testament don’t support it.
Excellent posts!!!!
Excellent post!!!
You obviously think that because those posts agree with your own theological presuppositions but objectively those posts are dishonest because the Scripture quotes are ripped out of any theological context and deceitfully used in support of an argument that is completely contrary to what the Scriptures actually teach and therefore, those posts are completely contrary to the Truth.
Simonline.
As I said you seem to be implying that anyone who disagrees with you is treating the Messiah with contempt, dishonest, and deceitful. Do you actually think that your interpretation is infallible and anyone who has a different interpretation is dishonest?You obviously think that because those posts agree with your own theological presuppositions but objectively those posts are dishonest because the Scripture quotes are ripped out of any theological context and deceitfully used in support of an argument that is completely contrary to what the Scriptures actually teach and therefore, those posts are completely contrary to the Truth.
Simonline.