Do we need a new theology for marriage?

[heartnsoul]

all sins are forgiven, even when we fall down, we can get back up.. the woman the pharisees caught in adultry was brought to Jesus to be stoned.. drop the stones and walk away.. no one is perfect.. people make mistakes.. and Jesus comes for sinners and picks them up.. think, who made you follow Christ.. was it yourself?

Jesus said to stop sinning to the woman.. I am no preacher or teacher but I take his word.. and do not judge. he will

peace to all

Agree. Everyone makes mistakes. The key is to not judge, but to LEARN from one's or other's mistakes. Hopefully the new generation will learn to be patient and wait on God's timing for the BEST partner for life. My advice to all singles out there, Don't settle for less than God's best. I pray that I have helped shed some light to some here. I am bowing out of this thread now. God bless all.

 

[Warrior Poet]

CaDan-
Mr. Pibb + Red Vines = Crazy Delicious

Double True.

Warrior Poet

 

[The Princess Bride]

It can be used wrongly . . . but it is for birth PLANNING and it ALWAYS leaves one open to life . . it never forces an artificial sterility.

It is using the rhythm that God made a part of our beings to make us fertile to help plan and space children . . . it is never to be used to keep one from having children . . . .

Well, if that being the case, wouldnt God have commanded that sex be reserved for the time when women are fertile?

But, the important aspect of this is it is not contraceptive, it puts no unnatural barries to conception, it inhibits no natural function in the body . .

Since when is sex for pleasure not a natural function of the body?

Artificial contracption does all this, and it closes one to the possiblity of life . . . this has the tendency to turn each other into objects of sex, sources of pleasure when engaging in the sex act (even if mutually desired) rather than two sharing each other for the creation of new life.

Our society has sex and procreation so turned upside down that it is extrememly hard to conceived of this . . .

Those who use Natural Family Planning share how just the opposite results from using this method . . have you ever taken time to read about this?

Sorry, but I find this hilarious. Have you or anyone else for that matter, ever read Song of Solomon/Song of Songs? Not ONCE do you find in there anything about children...it is all about, dare I say it? Enjoying sex! Nothing wrong with that!

 

[The Princess Bride]

God's truth is not relative . . it is universal . .

Do you mean to say that God's will is put in a box for everyone? How boring.

so regardless of how His call on your life is different than mine, this is not part of His call on either of our lives.

Then you have closed your heart and mind to the possiblity that you might be wrong?.

Other than "Be fruitful and multiply", which the earth is doing just fine on, I see nothing else to state otherwise to my opinion.

When did God rescind this command?

Ahh..wasnt that an OT command? Did Jesus not come to do away with the Law and command? Are people now choosing which laws to live by and which ones not to? IF that be the case, where is your lamb to sacrifice?

Artificial contraception is a deliberately sterile sex act. Sex between two men is also a deliberately sterile act . . . .

Sex with Artificial Contraception = deliberately sterile sex act = Sex between 2 men = Sodomy

Sodomy is condemned in the bible because it is deliberately sterile . . there is no hope of life. It is a crime against nature . .

There is no effective difference between contraceptive sex and sodomy.

Both are sterile and devoid of life . . . .

1) Sodomy in marriage doenst exist.
2) What relevancy does a homosexual relationship place with that of a legal marriage, a binding covenant between a man and a woman?

We are made in God's image, and God is not devoid of life . . .

To become deliberately devoid of life in sexual union is to warp and pervert the image of God which we are.


How can this be "OK" with God?

That being the case explain Hebrews 13: 4
"Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed UNDEFILED."

I would suppose that even oral sex in marriage is oked then too? Appears to me that way.

This is about obedience to God and conformity with His will regarding the right use of sex . . .

"4They neck is like the tower of David builded for an armoury, whereon there hang a thousand bucklers, all sheilds of mighty men. 5. Thy two breasts are like two does, which feed among the lilies..." Song of Song 4:4 & 5

Sounds to me like it's meant to be enjoyed and for much more than making babies.

 

[chilehed]

Do we need a new theology of marriage?...

In case no one's mentioned it yet, read "The Theology of the Body" by Pope John Paul II. It was a series of homilies he delivered over a five year period, and they absolutely blow me away.

There are a couple of good books available that condense it all into a digestible form. "The Theology of the Body for Beginners", by Chris West, is good.
http://shop.catholic.com/cgi-local/...19.html?L+scstore+rcnt5770ff685968+1138733302

 

[Veritas]

Well, if that being the case, wouldnt God have commanded that sex be reserved for the time when women are fertile?
Since when is sex for pleasure not a natural function of the body?
Sorry, but I find this hilarious. Have you or anyone else for that matter, ever read Song of Solomon/Song of Songs? Not ONCE do you find in there anything about children...it is all about, dare I say it? Enjoying sex! Nothing wrong with that!

This is according to your interpretation of these passages. There are others that don't involved sex. I think you're also misinterpreting what TLF is saying. It is the severing of the tie that binds the pleasure of sex to it's innate function of procreation that the problem comes in. No one has said that married couples should not enjoy sex and use it only for making babies. What we're trying to say is that the two go hand-in-hand. God intended it that way. Have you ever noticed that scripture says nothing about planning ones family or the necessity of contraception? That's because you're not to concern yourself with those matters. Couples should just enjoy themselves and be open to life. God will take care of the rest.

 

[Veritas]

Do you mean to say that God's will is put in a box for everyone? How boring.

I'm sorry you find God's Will boring.

That being the case explain Hebrews 13: 4
"Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed UNDEFILED."

I would suppose that even oral sex in marriage is oked then too? Appears to me that way.

Misquoted, my dear. It is: "let the marriage bed be undefiled". That means that married couples are NOT to do those things that would defile them or their relationship and that includes those acts which are defined as "sodomy". Certain types of stimulation are fine as long as they don't become an end in themselves.

"4They neck is like the tower of David builded for an armoury, whereon there hang a thousand bucklers, all sheilds of mighty men. 5. Thy two breasts are like two does, which feed among the lilies..." Song of Song 4:4 & 5

Sounds to me like it's meant to be enjoyed and for much more than making babies.

Again, no one has said sex should not be enjoyed. Not to be preachy or anything, but I think I had similar views as you at your age. In time and with maturity, you may think differently about these issues. There's a whole lot that can happen in the next 25 years!

 

[The Princess Bride]

I'm sorry you find God's Will boring.

I didnt say I find it boring. I implied that what TLF said made it SOUND boring if that situation were to be the case. I actually find it quite invigorating!
To me, if the Christian walk werent a crazy, breathtaking rollercoaster ride, I dont think I could stand being a Christian! God never intended for us to be bored, I believe, but neither should we put Him in a box to constraint what He can do.

Misquoted, my dear. It is: "let the marriage bed be undefiled". That means that married couples are NOT to do those things that would defile them or their relationship and that includes those acts which are defined as "sodomy". Certain types of stimulation are fine as long as they don't become an end in themselves.

Hebrews 13:4Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
That is how the CF verse search gives it. Sounds like it covers everything right there.

Not to be preachy or anything, but I think I had similar views as you at your age. In time and with maturity, you may think differently about these issues. There's a whole lot that can happen in the next 25 years!

Yeah, that is what people have been saying for the last 6 yrs too


On another note....

Obviously, people need to be compatible together. I know some old tale says "opposties attract" but more or less, I think they end up attacking. The realms of perspective are very different in that case. Take for example this thread, with me believeing in the permissability to use BC, I wouldnt want to marry someone who didnt, because that would be a no win situation.

 

[Daily Miracle]

If WE are in charge of when we start our families, aren't we taking control of God's will for us? To me, it's like saying "we know best", and God wouldn't know better. If we are living by God's word, aren't we supposed to have faith that what happens is for the best and He will bless us with the things we need for our family?

 

[djns9437]

Actually, that is what the pharmaceutical companies that make them want you to believe .. but ALL hormonal contraceptives have, as ONE of their methods of action, abortion . . preventing the fertilized egg from implanting if the other mechanisms fail . . .

We went through this last year sometime, i have no idea where those threads are now . . . Let me see if I can round up some links for you . . ah . . here is one - hormonal contraception involves either estrogens, progestins or a combination of both . . .





Here are the methods of action for both individually:

Hormonal contraception is one approach to birth control. It may be accomplished through various methods, which all involve interference with normal sex hormone function in the body. Hormonal contraception for men is under study, but existing hormonal contraception is used almost exclusively by women. Currently-available hormonal contraceptives disrupt the normal menstrual cycle by altering the levels of the female hormones, mainly estrogens and/or progesterone. By changing the amounts of estrogens, progesterones, or both; hormonal contraceptives interfere with the release, fertilization, and/or implantation of human eggs.
. . . . . . . . . .

Estrogens:

• prevent ovulation (the release of eggs from the ovaries)
• affect the time needed for an egg to travel through the fallopian tubes, thus interfering with precise timing needed for fertilization
• interfere with the implantation of a fertilized egg on the wall of the uterus

Progestins:

• prevent ovulation (the release of eggs from the ovaries)
• affect the time needed for an egg to travel through the fallopian tubes, thus interfering with precise timing needed for fertilization
• increase the amount and thickness of mucus at the cervix (the opening of the uterus), thereby decreasing sperm entry to and passage through the vagina
• decrease the ability of sperm to fertilize an egg
• interfere with the implantation of a fertilized egg on the wall of the uterus

DrugDigest​

Hormonal Contraception/Birth Control
http://www.drugdigest.org/DD/PrintablePages/HealthConditions/1,20041,550100,00.html


​

As you can see, both have the interefernce with implatantion as a final mechanism of action, which means that if this is the method of action that prevents the pregnancy, if the others fail and the egg is fertilized, the pregnancy is prevented by abortion.


So if you have been led to believe you can't be causing an abortion by using hormonal contraception, you have been deceived . . most of us have been.




As you can see, this is not the case.

Do you realize that before the "morning after" pill hormonal contraceptives were used just like this, by increasing the dosage of the usual pill?





It can be used wrongly . . . but it is for birth PLANNING and it ALWAYS leaves one open to life . . it never forces an artificial sterility.

It is using the rhythm that God made a part of our beings to make us fertile to help plan and space children . . . it is never to be used to keep one from having children . . . .


But, the important aspect of this is it is not contraceptive, it puts no unnatural barries to conception, it inhibits no natural function in the body . .

Artificial contracption does all this, and it closes one to the possiblity of life . . . this has the tendency to turn each other into objects of sex, sources of pleasure when engaging in the sex act (even if mutually desired) rather than two sharing each other for the creation of new life.

Our society has sex and procreation so turned upside down that it is extrememly hard to conceived of this . . .

Those who use Natural Family Planning share how just the opposite results from using this method . . have you ever taken time to read about this?



Peace to all

May God bless you thereselittleflower!!!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Well, if that being the case, wouldnt God have commanded that sex be reserved for the time when women are fertile?

Hi The Princess Bride


Funny you should mention that!




Have you ever wondered why God forbade sexual relations during menses and for a specified time afterwards?

The only time period a Jew could have sex was outside this forbidden period of time . . .

Guess what period of time that was?





The FERTILE time period .. the rest was pretty much off limits!

Lev 15:19 And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.


Lev 15:20 And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean.

Lev 15:21 And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.

Lev 15:22 And whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.

Lev 15:23 And if it be on her bed, or on any thing whereon she sitteth, when he toucheth it, he shall be unclean until the even.

Lev 15:24 And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the bed whereon he lieth shall be unclean.

Lev 15:25 And if a woman have an issue of her blood many days out of the time of her separation, or if it run beyond the time of her separation; all the days of the issue of her uncleanness shall be as the days of her separation: she shall be unclean.

Lev 15:26 Every bed whereon she lieth all the days of her issue shall be unto her as the bed of her separation: and whatsoever she sitteth upon shall be unclean, as the uncleanness of her separation.

Lev 15:27 And whosoever toucheth those things shall be unclean, and shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.

Lev 15:28 But if she be cleansed of her issue, then she shall number to herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean.

Lev 15:29 And on the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles, or two young pigeons, and bring them unto the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Lev 15:30 And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for her before the LORD for the issue of her uncleanness.



​

So, a normal period lasts about a week. . .

After it is over with, the woman has to number 7 more days . . during this time she is OFF LIMITS . . Now some of what I have read suggets this longer time period is for those whose mensus is not normal . . but either way, time is taken out of the month where no sexual activity can occur during ths infertilel time.

Then on the 8th day, she is made clean again.


During the time she is unclean, NO sexual relations can occur. . .

That can pretty much takes out about 2 weeks every month for having sex.

That leaves 2 weeks. . . and once deposited, sperm can be alive for 7-10 days, just waiting . . . (though now sources say 5-7 days)



So, God did orchestrate things in the Old Covenant so that sex would only occure between married couples and then only during the time period which could result in a pregnancy.


Interesting, isn't it?

It always nagged at a corner of my mind, Why did God do this? What was the purpose of this, especially after the menses ended? It wasn't until I really began to understand God's perspective on sex and life that I began to understand this too.


Surprised?

Since when is sex for pleasure not a natural function of the body?

The question is not is it or is it not a function, but what is the purpose of sex?

Was it to gratify self and another with pleasure?

Or was it to create new life, to be fertile as God is fertile and full of life, and for pleasure to be the result of engaging in such activity?

Sorry, but I find this hilarious. Have you or anyone else for that matter, ever read Song of Solomon/Song of Songs? Not ONCE do you find in there anything about children...it is all about, dare I say it? Enjoying sex! Nothing wrong with that!

And? What does that prove? That love between a man and woman is wonderful . . .

One has to read this with the mindset of ancient Jewish culture. . it was unthinkable to enter in to such a relationship without the outcome of children being a possiblitiy . .

It was written with the Mosaic Law understood . . and the Mosaic Law prohibited sex outside the fertile time . . . .






Peace to all

 

[The Princess Bride]

Good points.
No argument there.

But the questions is now: Are we still under the Mosaic Law?

 

[thereselittleflower]

Good points.
No argument there.

But the questions is now: Are we still under the Mosaic Law?

It wasn't about the Mosaic Law, but an answer to your question.

However, even though the Mosaic Law has been fulfilled by Christ, the underlying priniciples and truths have not been done away with.


It is morally disordered to engage in sterile sexual activity with the purposeful intent of preventing life.




Peace to all

 

[The Princess Bride]

It wasn't about the Mosaic Law, but an answer to your question.

However, even though the Mosaic Law has been fulfilled by Christ, the underlying priniciples and truths have not been done away with.


It is morally disordered to engage in sterile sexual activity with the purposeful intent of preventing life.

That being the case; then are married couples then given liberty to engage in sexual activity while a woman is on her menses?


(get better answers to my questions online then I do in real life!)

 

[thereselittleflower]

I didnt say I find it boring. I implied that what TLF said made it SOUND boring if that situation were to be the case. I actually find it quite invigorating!
To me, if the Christian walk werent a crazy, breathtaking rollercoaster ride, I dont think I could stand being a Christian! God never intended for us to be bored, I believe, but neither should we put Him in a box to constraint what He can do.

TPB . . we are not putting God into a box here . ..

It is God who has put us into a box . . . He has set boundries on His creation, we are not setting boundries on God.


It is important to recognize where those boundries are . . .


Within those boundries there is safety in the light of God's Truth. . . outside those boundries there is darkness, danger, sin and death . . .


The boundries are there for a reason . . but we are often times like children who test the moral boundries, sometimes refusing to acknowledge that they are there . . . like children test their parent's boundries.


The boundries are good for they are given by God.

To use His gifts in a disordered, unbalanced, distorted way is to use His gifts OUTSIDE the boundries He established for us. These boundries did not end with the fulfillment of the Mosaic Law . . . The boundries existed before the Mosaic Law . . . the boundries are greater than the Mosaic Law.


Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart, soul, strength and mind and love thy neighbor as thyself .


Loving God requires that we honor and stay within His boundries put there because He loves us.

Hebrews 13:4Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
That is how the CF verse search gives it. Sounds like it covers everything right there.

Verses stripped of their proper context usually don't mean what the user wants them to mean.

What was the context?

Yeah, that is what people have been saying for the last 6 yrs too

Do you doubt wisdom comes with age?

On another note....

Obviously, people need to be compatible together. I know some old tale says "opposties attract" but more or less, I think they end up attacking. The realms of perspective are very different in that case. Take for example this thread, with me believeing in the permissability to use BC, I wouldnt want to marry someone who didnt, because that would be a no win situation.

Of course . . people are going to gravitate to that which they feel more comfortable with . .


But again, truth is not relative . . it is absolute. If we hold to a morally disordered reality, then we are going to gravitate to those who share our morally disordered reality . . that means nothing as to what is right or wrong.



Peace to all