Do those believing in “grace only” fear the Lord?

[FireDragon76]

Robbing Romans 6 of its context and failing to understand Hebrews 12 doesn't negate the Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran

The "hyper grace" critics want to try to force people into their preferred kind of spiritual bondage.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hebrews 12 - Holiness is borne not out of works of the law, but the suffering of faith; and therefore do not abandon the faith, forfeiting it as Esau did.

Romans 6, its context

"So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned— for before the law was given, sin was in the world, but there is no accounting for sin when there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam until Moses even over those who did not sin in the same way that Adam (who is a type of the coming one) transgressed. But the gracious gift is not like the transgression. For if the many died through the transgression of the one man, how much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one man Jesus Christ multiply to the many! And the gift is not like the one who sinned. For judgment, resulting from the one transgression, led to condemnation, but the gracious gift from the many failures led to justification. For if, by the transgression of the one man, death reigned through the one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ!

Consequently, just as condemnation for all people came through one transgression, so too through the one righteous act came righteousness leading to life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of one man many will be made righteous. Now the law came in so that the transgression may increase, but where sin increased, grace multiplied all the more, so that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace will reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." - Romans 5:12-21,

continuing,

"What shall we say then? Are we to remain in sin so that grace may increase? Absolutely not! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that as many as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may live a new life.

For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will certainly also be united in the likeness of his resurrection. We know that our old man was crucified with him so that the body of sin would no longer dominate us, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. (For someone who has died has been freed from sin.)

Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that since Christ has been raised from the dead, he is never going to die again; death no longer has mastery over him. For the death he died, he died to sin once for all, but the life he lives, he lives to God. So you too consider yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its desires, and do not present your members to sin as instruments to be used for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who are alive from the dead and your members to God as instruments to be used for righteousness. For sin will have no mastery over you, because you are not under law but under grace.

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Absolutely not! Do you not know that if you present yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves to sin, you obeyed from the heart that pattern of teaching you were entrusted to, and having been freed from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness. (I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh.) For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free with regard to righteousness.

So what benefit did you then reap from those things that you are now ashamed of? For the end of those things is death. But now, freed from sin and enslaved to God, you have your benefit leading to sanctification, and the end is eternal life. For the payoff of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 6

The free gift of God is not excuse to sin, but rather in light of the promises we have received--freely, without merit in ourselves--we have set before us a life to be lived in obedience to God, not an obedience toward salvation (for no one is justified under the law, indeed, we have been saved by grace, through faith, which is God's gift, this is not of ourselves, not of our works), but obedience in light of our salvation. Toward a life lived in the suffering of the cross for the sake of our neighbor.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

The "hyper grace" critics want to try to force people into their preferred kind of spiritual bondage.

Agreed.

I also find the whole use of "hyper-grace" amusing. As though saying we believe in too much grace, or a super-abundance of grace, is somehow supposed to be viewed as a critique. As though there could ever be too much of God's kindness, or too much of God's love, or too much Jesus.

The irony, of course, is that in confusing Law and Gospel one is not only seeking to negate the Gospel as Gospel, but is also violating, transgressing, and ultimately not taking seriously the Law as the Law. Such a person does not properly understand their sin as sin, condemned under the Law, and the importance therefore of hearing the Gospel, and of the life of repentance. Thus they have become the very antinomians they mistakenly accuse others of being.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BCsenior]

I also find the whole use of
"hyper-grace" amusing.

Both yourself and FireDragon are NOT defending
your position by dealing with the verses which
threaten eternal security / OSAS!

Which item below are you willing to deal with first?

Many NT verses prove each of these spiritual truths:
Believers stay righteous by practicing righteousness
Believers stay righteous through their obedience
Believers faith must endure until the end of their lives
Believers keep salvation by repenting of their sins
Believers were chosen and called to live holy lives
Believers must love, forgive, not judge or condemn
Believers must be victorious overcomers

One full page of Scripture verses is available
for almost every one of the above topics.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Both yourself and FireDragon are NOT defending
your position by dealing with the verses which
threaten eternal security / OSAS!

Both FireDragon and myself are Lutherans, and as such don't subscribe to "Once saved always saved".

So why would either of us defend a position neither of us subscribes to?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BCsenior]

Instead of going back over your posts,
I will apologize for seeing the two of you
as hyper-grace followers, if you indeed are not.

However, I wouldn't be laughing at hyper-grace,
for it can easily be responsible for sending many'
to hell.

 

[ziggy29]

What is "fear"? In the context of ancient languages, "fear" is more properly defined as "awesome reverence", not something to cower in front of. So when we talk about someone who is "God-fearing" it doesn't mean someone who is cowering in what we would call fear in front of a vengeful God. It means someone who sees God with utter and complete awe and reverence.

That doesn't mean believing in a God who is without the potential for wrath. And believing in grace and God's infinite capacity to forgive does not, and should not, allow us to pretend that anything and everything is OK. God loves us, God is willing to keep forgiving us for our stumbles, but we have to at least try to be right with God. And it's never OK to justify sin by invoking grace. God's grace may be infinite but it requires true repentance and trying to do the right thing.

 

[BCsenior]

What is "fear"? In the context of ancient languages, "fear" is more properly defined as "awesome reverence", not something to cower in front of. So when we talk about someone who is "God-fearing" it doesn't mean someone who is cowering in what we would call fear in front of a vengeful God. It means someone who sees God with utter and complete awe and reverence.

Many refer to the fear of God re: verses such as:
"... fear Him who is able to destroy both
soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)
I don't think a healthy reverence of God will suffice!
.

 

[ziggy29]

Many refer to the fear of God re: verses such as:
"... fear Him who is able to destroy both
soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)
I don't think a healthy reverence of God will suffice!
.

Well, to the extent that reverence implies obedience, I think it does. And I think that would have been more obvious if you chose to quote the rest of my post.

 

[straykat]

What is "fear"? In the context of ancient languages, "fear" is more properly defined as "awesome reverence", not something to cower in front of. So when we talk about someone who is "God-fearing" it doesn't mean someone who is cowering in what we would call fear in front of a vengeful God. It means someone who sees God with utter and complete awe and reverence.

I'd say you're remarkable if you're not cowering a bit.

"In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."

God appearing at Sinai - cowering of all Israel.

Transfiguration - cowering of the disciples. But Jesus did comfort them and told them not to be afraid. But either way, that was their instinct (like I said, you're remarkable if you don't feel this).


I wish I could relay something personal, but it wouldn't matter.

 

[ziggy29]

I'd say you're remarkable if you're not cowering a bit.

A bit? Sure. But it does not define my relationship with God.

Love, reverence, obedience.... yes, totally, all the time. In some moments there is trepidation when I feel I may be falling short of what God expects of me. But my relationship with God is not primarily anchored by what we would call "fear" today.

 

[straykat]

A bit? Sure. But it does not define my relationship with God.

Love, reverence, obedience.... yes, totally, all the time. In some moments there is trepidation when I feel I may be falling short of what God expects of me. But my relationship with God is not primarily anchored by what we would call "fear" today.

If you're obedient, you should feel confident then. I don't want to embarrass you with any kind of flattery, but you are indeed remarkable if that is the case. I would relate people like this to the Virgin Mary. Not even average saints.

All I can tell you is that I've been peeled like an onion.. and there are layers of sin.. and lies that pretended to be layers I thought were once good. I don't know about anyone else, but the levels my ego has gone to tell itself of it's righteousness disgusts me now. I can't tell you how the onion was peeled.. but I relayed the story to a Baptist lady I knew once, and she was appalled. She said I didn't believe in the real God, if I had been made to feel as badly about my sins. It's made me wary of telling anyone the story again.

 

[ziggy29]

If you're obedient, you should feel confident then. I don't want to embarrass you with any kind of flattery, but you are indeed remarkable if that is the case. I would relate people like this to the Virgin Mary. Not even average saints.

Not even close. I just don't think about being *afraid* of God on a daily basis. I didn't intend to make sound as if I was always obedient, because let's be honest... who among us is, even when we try?

I know I'm far from perfect but I try to do the right thing. I *try* to be obedient, but like everyone, I sometimes fail. I just don't think to be afraid, but mostly filled with joy believing that as long as I try, sincerely, to get things right, my understanding of God is such that even if I mess some of it up, I'll be forgiven as long as I tried and my heart was in the right place.

 

[straykat]

Not even close. I just don't think about being *afraid* of God on a daily basis. I didn't intend to make sound as if I was always obedient, because let's be honest... who among us is, even when we try?

I know I'm far from perfect but I try to do the right thing. I *try* to be obedient, but like everyone, I sometimes fail. I just don't think to be afraid, but mostly filled with joy believing that as long as I try, sincerely, to get things right, my understanding of God is such that even if I mess some of it up, I'll be forgiven as long as I tried and my heart was in the right place.

I didn't mean just in obedience. I mean also in her confidence and grace when confronted with the holy. First with an angel of heaven, and then day in, day out with the Lord himself. She could withstand it, but he provoked strong feelings from everyone else around him (be it evil or decent people). I don't understand where people get their confidence and casual attitude about God unless they're like Mary. I don't have it in me. I even see it from the world, with all of it's depictions of "Buddy Jesus" and "Morgan Freeman as God" and other similar things. They have no idea who they're dealing with. But I'll assume that Christians mean well, and must have a good reason for it.

 

[BCsenior]

Robbing Romans 6 of its context and failing to understand Hebrews 12 doesn't negate the Gospel.

I've heard complaints before about what I see
behind Paul's intent in Romans 6.
They fail to see Paul's tact throughout his epistles!
Jesus trained him for 17 years in the desert places
on how to write to the churches.
Paul was to "somewhat hide" the dire warnings in
amongst edifications, exhortations, encouragements.
(Romans 6:16-19 below is an example.)

The dire warnings are not for baby Christians, but
they are to be revealed by the Holy Spirit to more
mature BACs who strive to be faithful and obedient.
So, if the shoes fit, people, wear them!
Or, if you have only one leg: if the shoe fits, wear it!

 

[ViaCrucis]

I've heard complaints before about what I see
behind Paul's intent in Romans 6.
They fail to see Paul's tact throughout his epistles!
Jesus trained him for 17 years in the desert places
on how to write to the churches.
Paul was to "somewhat hide" the dire warnings in
amongst edifications, exhortations, encouragements.
(Romans 6:16-19 below is an example.)

The dire warnings are not for baby Christians, but
they are to be revealed by the Holy Spirit to more
mature BACs who strive to be faithful and obedient.
So, if the shoes fit, people, wear them!
Or, if you have only one leg: if the shoe fits, wear it!

So you've invented something all in your head in order to avoid taking St. Paul's letters seriously, and instead can promote your own aberrant theology.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[JAYPT]

C'mon, both of you ladies seem to be hyper-grace.
This is all I meant.

"Hyper grace"? Ya Im pretty hyper about it!

Still going after all these people with your "loss of salvation" scare tactics and works based salvation?

 

[BCsenior]

Still going after all these people with your "loss of salvation" scare tactics and works based salvation?

A few years back, I began "seeing" the many
warning verses in the NT about believers:
● being deceived
● habitual (unrepentant) sinning
● falling away from the faith
● being estranged from Christ
● falling from grace
● not inheriting the kingdom of God and Christ
● not being allowed into the New Jerusalem
● being blotted out of the Book of Life
● drawing back to perdition, etc.
... and I began warning about these warnings!

Then, a few years later, I began to read on the Net
warnings from people who called themselves
prophets/prophetesses/watchmen, who claimed
to be getting warning messages from the Lord
(which matched what I had been seeing in the NT).

Then, a few years later, I began to read on the Net
warnings from people who claimed to have been
to hell, or who had powerful visions of hell, etc.
(which agreed with verses about hell in the NT,
and with what the prophets were saying).

So, for me personally, I have had 2 confirmations
of what the NT clearly warns about in many verses!

 

[amariselle]

A few years back, I began "seeing" the many
warning verses in the NT about believers:
● being deceived
● habitual (unrepentant) sinning
● falling away from the faith
● being estranged from Christ
● falling from grace
● not inheriting the kingdom of God and Christ
● not being allowed into the New Jerusalem
● being blotted out of the Book of Life
● drawing back to perdition, etc.
... and I began warning about these warnings!

Then, a few years later, I began to read on the Net
warnings from people who called themselves
prophets/prophetesses/watchmen, who claimed
to be getting warning messages from the Lord
(which matched what I had been seeing in the NT).

Then, a few years later, I began to read on the Net
warnings from people who claimed to have been
to hell, or who had powerful visions of hell, etc.
(which agreed with verses about hell in the NT,
and with what the prophets were saying).

So, for me personally, I have had 2 confirmations
of what the NT clearly warns about in many verses!

I say this respectfully and sincerely; you need to stop listening to these so-called “visions” and/or visits to hell from men (or women).

It is not God Who puts a fear of losing salvation into His saved, born again and adopted children’s hearts, it’s Satan. Scripture plainly tells us we CAN have assurance of our salvation because it is not based on what we do but on what Jesus Christ our wonderful and merciful Saviour has done, perfectly for all time.

And perhaps you haven’t considered this, but an inheritance is not something you earn, it is given to you by another who themselves earned it. Likewise salvation and eternal life are, as Scripture tells us, freely given, not earned by our good behaviour or “righteousness.”

What you are telling people, though I have no doubt you are quite sincere, is absolutely false. It amounts to “warning” believers that they actually cannot trust Jesus because He never did enough to save them, so instead, they had better live right to earn eternal life.

I hope you realize that is a lie of the devil. God would never want anyone to look to themselves for salvation. Jesus alone is “the Way, the Truth and the Life”. Salvation is found in no one and nothing else, period.

 

[CodyFaith]

I say this respectfully and sincerely; you need to stop listening to these so-called “visions” and/or visits to hell from men (or women).

It is not God Who puts a fear of losing salvation into His saved, born again and adopted children’s hearts, it’s Satan. Scripture plainly tells us we CAN have assurance of our salvation because it is not based on what we do but on what Jesus Christ our wonderful and merciful Saviour has done, perfectly for all time.

And perhaps you haven’t considered this, but an inheritance is not something you earn, it is given to you by another who themselves earned it. Likewise salvation and eternal life are, as Scripture tells us, freely given, not earned by our good behaviour or “righteousness.”

What you are telling people, though I have no doubt you are quite sincere, is absolutely false. It amounts to “warning” believers that they actually cannot trust Jesus because He never did enough to save them, so instead, they had better live right to earn eternal life.

I hope you realize that is a lie of the devil. God would never want anyone to look to themselves for salvation. Jesus alone is “the Way, the Truth and the Life”. Salvation is found in no one and nothing else, period.

I find it interesting that, on this forum especially, there's a (huge) group of people who go about "warning" children of God of the danger of the gospel.

For the gospel is inseperateable from the doctrine of eternal security, because the blood of Jesus does not pay the penalty for just past sins at the moment of your salvation, but it atones for all the sins you have and will ever do. God adopts you into your family forever, into his household, and you are sealed with the Holy Spirit and born again. There is no other gospel, no half gospel.

So when they fight against this "doctrine", they are actually fighting against the gospel and they are attempting (whether purposely or indirectly by product of their faiths) to put chains on those whose chains are all broken.

It's interesting anyway. No more hated of a doctrine. All one in their striving against it.

But yes, to respond to this thread, I certainly do fear my Lord, who is the God of Israel. But I most certainly do not fear man and his messages. Nor do I fear hell, as you do, for I am delivered from the fear of hell and not in slavery to it, but am saved and have my name written in Heaven for all eternity along with God's saints.