Do the LDS believe we are accountable for the original sin?

[Raimi Stranger]

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

I suggest you read this quote from Paul and tell me that sin did not enter the world through Adam.

you have jumped to false conclusion my friend, led by the nose by sinners who cannot know God [according to the saints of God in scripture]

I would suggest that you read the whole of Paul on this matter and take the trouble to understand that he states is the meaning of the verse you quote

to summarise his point, sin is by the Law of God and Adam was innocent of the Law of good and evil of God until AFTER he took the fruit and digested it... so the act of taking the fruit was outside the law, not a sin then because Adam was innocent of the law , ignorant of right and wrong until taking that knowledge...

Paul explains this in his usual detail and then you fail to read it but misrepresent what he is saying... it is sad laziness because you want to believe we are responsible for the sins of our forbears, but the bible states we are NOT as I showed before

so sin entered the world by Adam taking the knowledge for us of good and evil, not by any sin ...

you have not bothered to understand God's word,but are deluded with the many by not troubling to read Paul's explanation [albeit Paul's style is not always easy to grasp, but God would help if you wanted to understand, not misunderstand, if you came at the word of God as a little child, humble to it with open mind to learn, not presupposition of sinners who already rule this worldand its religions as Jesus warned must happen...]

 

[Raimi Stranger]

It is a gross mistake, underlined by Paul, to follow men as founders of their own versions of religion, instead of following Christ and thus God ... the one's in place of Christ who foolishly create religions of their own, some followed by many , are antichristos [in place of Christ...] and think to change many things which God a=has declared as holy, separated to His purpose of saving creation, thus religious traditions are already against Giod and Jesus, just as Jesus said must happen to the whole world [Rev 13:L3-4] and the many thus are destroyed [matt 7:13] because so few find the way to stop sinning , so receive spirit baptism, and have their Love proven free of sin by trial, baptism of fire... but sinners know nothing of this way of Jesus in mass religion :-

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

there is no salvation without spirit baptism and no spirit baptism without completet repemntance of all sin,which entails not sinning any more but chooseing to love all instead of sinning against any - that Is Jesus COMMAND as Lord, so no matter what many say,Jesus is not Lord of sinners because sinners do not obey him as lord and one's lord is the one one obeys...

sinners still obey Satan as lord , one cannot have two lords... any sin destroys all righteousness [Ezek 18:24]

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him...
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil;

 

[drstevej]

Raimi, are you sinless in actions, words and thoughts? If yes how long has this been the case?

 

[Sophrosyne]

<snip>

The things we suffer brings us closer to God if we head that voice, and many of us need to be humbled by suffering. Even Jesus learned obedience (without faltering) by the things He suffered. Many, who are already humble, are the recipients of suffering due to selfish choices of evil persons. The innocent sufferers are perfected in exercising Christlike character to forgive, while the evil now have evidence against them that will condemn them at the judgement. I find God's plan efficiently perfect, even by the things that I suffer.

I'm sorry but if Jesus never sinned... then he was obedient to begin with and didn't require to have to learn. The only way one could prove he learned to be obedient was to prove he was previously DISOBEDIENT which means Jesus must have SINNED prior to being obedient.

 

[skylark1]

For being a former LDS, your understanding of our beliefs is pathetic! We are grateful for the opportunity this fallen nature gives us to grow, for we could not develop our potential without opposition. Suffering is part of the jigsaw puzzle for any religious belief, whether it be our children dying of cancer, or my grandmother's daughter (my aunt) at 16, being murdered by a boyfriend. There is no tragedy in life except for denying the voice of the Holy Ghost.

The things we suffer brings us closer to God if we head that voice, and many of us need to be humbled by suffering. Even Jesus learned obedience (without faltering) by the things He suffered. Many, who are already humble, are the recipients of suffering due to selfish choices of evil persons. The innocent sufferers are perfected in exercising Christlike character to forgive, while the evil now have evidence against them that will condemn them at the judgement. I find God's plan efficiently perfect, even by the things that I suffer.

I'm sorry but if Jesus never sinned... then he was obedient to begin with and didn't require to have to learn. The only way one could prove he learned to be obedient was to prove he was previously DISOBEDIENT which means Jesus must have SINNED prior to being obedient.

I think that MormonFriend was referring to Hebrews 5:8

Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.​

I think that John Gill's comments are helpful:

yet learned he obedience; not to his parents, or civil magistrates, though that is true; nor merely to the precepts of the law, which he did; but unto death: through sufferings he became obedient to death, even the death of the cross: and this he learnt; not that he was ignorant of the nature of it; nor was he destitute of an obedient disposition to it; but the meaning is, he had an experience of it, and effected it; and which was voluntary, and done in our room and stead; and is the rule and the measure of our righteousness before God: and this he learned,

Hebrews 5:8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered​

 

[Raimi Stranger]

Raimi, are you sinless in actions, words and thoughts? If yes how long has this been the case?

Steve, you are being unwise to scripture my friend - a man cannot say if he is without sin, it is God who judges that... indeed one would be sinning by presuming God's judgement even to imagine one was without sin... also God does not make that call until Jesus' return, there is still time to stop sinning,and receive the spirit, and perfect Love in trial in this life against the beliefs of the masses in Satan's religious traditions of men -Rev 13:3-4 - but few find the way to do so -Matt 7:13-14

none can be saved without spirit baptism as Jesus says, so the way of salvation is sealed from sinners who will not repent properly, fully, ... there is no gain in saying confessions if one does not stop the sin one confesses...
God cannot allow corruption with sin of the kingdom come else the many would not later be saved [Rev 7:9-10] who are all destroyed to remove their sin from this life [matt 7:13, Rev 7:9-10]

Love does not prevail without the destruction of sin , very few stop sinning now, and that is why so few even know what spirit baptism is, without which none are saved...

but death frees a man from sin [Rom 6:7] so all flesh can at last be baptised of the spirit to know all Truth of God [John 16:13] in the new earth kingdom of Jesus Christ when all are freed from sleep in hell [Re 20:13] so the new earth kingdom is simply baptism of fire, trial to perfect Love of the many and a second death for anyone who sins against God then with men...

but as scripture states over a hundred times, the mercy of God does not end there, but endures for all time ... death is denied those finally shamed by two lives as sinners and there is final baptism of fire in the lake of fire for those of the second death [which simply took all sinners away from the salvation of the many by the great 'judgement day' of the works of sinners of this earth after death frees them ad they are resurrected to Jesus' kingdom run by Love unlike this earth...

we know this because Jesus states that all creation will accept him in his kingdom as king of kings ruling by Love as the law of God over all ,death, a second death, still being wages of sin... but even Satan prodigal son, man of sin, realises he has lost once the countless many are saved to immortality by works of Love in the kingdom come in the next life...[Rev 7:9-10]

so sin is destroyed because none can accept Love and sin, one is keeping god's law and the other is breaking it.... one must choose, God will decide if one is lying to oneself or not, and if not then God will tell all, even all about oneself... no-one is saved without that, all will receive it eventually, but few now [Joel 2:28, Matt 7:14]

Jesus promise that all will choose him as king, choose Love over sin eventually in the new earth kingdom come :-

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

God too has said none can stop Him from doing all His 'pleasure' that the wicked will turn from sin to Love through Jesus the Christ of Israel... that is why God sent Jesus to the lost House of Israel to re-unite the remnant few with the Jews [House of Judah] as their anointed king [the meaning of 'Christ' and 'Messiah', anointed king of Israel re-united as a nation of priest-kings for rule of Jesus' kingdom under the king of kings, high priests of the immortal order of God's priests of the new covenant expressly only with Israel [but Israel is vastly more that just the Jews,despite what most Jews claim... the OT and NT both explain that]

so the royal priesthood is predominantly not Jews, but the lost house of Israel to whom alone Jesus said he was sent and commanded his disciples to find the remnant children amongst the gentiles where God scattered them, idol-worshippers still, not Judaists, long before He scattered the Jews

so that is why so few now and many saved later, God requires a few without sin from this world although men cannot tell who are the lost house of Israel any more, they look like gentiles , live as gentiles , but truly are descendants of Jacob, and never accepted Jews or Judaism, that is what divided Israel in the first place ... but God made a promise , over and over ... Exodus 19:6 is one of the earliest records of it... and Jesus is indeed the one king cme to collect the few who Love, no more sin, perfected in love in this life, to be king-priests , the royal priesthood of the lost people, sheep,-1Pet 2:9-10 who wil rule in the salvation later of teh many [Rev 7:9-10]

so you see perhaps, it makes no sense to follow Satan's religion [rev 13:3-4] now which propagates sin - because Jesus came to destroy all sin one will not continue sinning for more than two lives, even Satan knows when God has won all his support from him which he has now for his lies to mankind in mass religion of sinners

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

so you might perhaps like to address your own sin soner rather than later, it is up to you when, but God will persuade all simply by showing Love works better for all in the end...

but be aware sin is between a ma and God, one's sin is not for judgement by other men ... God requires only Love for sinners from His few saints, that is part of the baptism of fire, trial of their Love to perfect it, God will do all the judgement WITH MERCY beyond all judgement of failure to love, because god will do all his pleasure as he says, none can stop Him and He has time and creation of universes on His side to do it as He says He will...

so leave the judgement to God and stop asking folks if they are sinners, most do not even acknowledge all their sin yet... very few find the way in this life Matt 7:13-14 , the bible shows how few indeed [Jude 1:14, Rev 7:3-8]...


Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

[drstevej]

so leave the judgement to god and stop asking folks if they are sinners, most do not even acknowledge all their sin yet... very few find the way in this life, the bible shows how few indeed...

Are you judging me? I simply asked you a question?

Are you never aware when you sin?

 

[Sophrosyne]

I think that MormonFriend was referring to Hebrews 5:8

Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.​

I think that John Gill's comments are helpful:

yet learned he obedience; not to his parents, or civil magistrates, though that is true; nor merely to the precepts of the law, which he did; but unto death: through sufferings he became obedient to death, even the death of the cross: and this he learnt; not that he was ignorant of the nature of it; nor was he destitute of an obedient disposition to it; but the meaning is, he had an experience of it, and effected it; and which was voluntary, and done in our room and stead; and is the rule and the measure of our righteousness before God: and this he learned,

Hebrews 5:8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered​

There is a difference in the definition of obedience presented by you here than that which is posited by him. Jesus obedience wasn't about him being saved nor was it about proving anything but it was about falling in line with the will of the entire Godhead (trinity) and experiencing things unknown to them (death). What we have is people proclaiming we must obey to be saved and pointing at Jesus as an example but it is an invalid one because his obedience did not save him at all but... us and our obedience cannot save others so it is not equal in nature.

 

[MormonFriend]

It requires an enormous amount of faith on my part to believe that I am Napoleon Bonaparte rather than who I was born as. In my heart I would very much like to believe that I am really not just some ordinary chap, but that I am someone really special and famous. My mind, however, keeps getting in the way. I will try harder to suspend my mind and develop my higher faith. I am not sure you would call that saving faith, but it is definitely a higher faith.



Very simply. Believing that I can personally levitate requires extreme faith. By your own definition that is a higher faith than simply believing that I am unable to levitate. This higher faith requires the suspension of one's mental abilities, which is exactly what you asked us to do and which you assert will guide us to saving faith.

Again, how does that relate to the things of God? God did not command you to levitate, nor did He command you to become or believe that you are Napoleon. You are applying faith in the things of man. That is false faith. Faith, when applied to true principles, will yield true results. The things that God commands us are true principles. If we fail to obtain the true results that God promises will happen, the only variable is our faith. We are here to learn what faith is and to develop it. It doesn't happen instantly because you read about it. There is personal conversion involved, which requires passing through the fire of the refiner, so as to remove the dross of our pride as dross is removed from gold.
Most people do not want to pass through that refinement and get creative. They change the rules to appease their conscience and ease their guilt. They redefine constants as variables and make a different gospel. The true meaning of faith has been lost due to the apostasy.

 

[MormonFriend]

I think that MormonFriend was referring to Hebrews 5:8

Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.​

I think that John Gill's comments are helpful:

yet learned he obedience; not to his parents, or civil magistrates, though that is true; nor merely to the precepts of the law, which he did; but unto death: through sufferings he became obedient to death, even the death of the cross: and this he learnt; not that he was ignorant of the nature of it; nor was he destitute of an obedient disposition to it; but the meaning is, he had an experience of it, and effected it; and which was voluntary, and done in our room and stead; and is the rule and the measure of our righteousness before God: and this he learned,

Hebrews 5:8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered​

Thank you for that contribution and insight.

I also see that Jesus had a physical body, which subjected Him to the same passions and desires we have. We know that during His great fast, He was tempted in full force by the adversary. If He was impervious to making the wrong choice, then would there really have been temptation? Even growing up as a boy, where nothing is documented, I believe He was faced with desires that he chose to act against, denying ungodliness no matter how loud his body was screaming at Him to engage in physical desires. He acted on what He loved, instead of being acted upon by what negates love. Suffering was likely part of this sacrifice. Just personal observations. But truly He marked a path that we must follow.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Again, how does that relate to the things of God? God did not command you to levitate, nor did He command you to become or believe that you are Napoleon. You are applying faith in the things of man. That is false faith. Faith, when applied to true principles, will yield true results. The things that God commands us are true principles. If we fail to obtain the true results that God promises will happen, the only variable is our faith. We are here to learn what faith is and to develop it. It doesn't happen instantly because you read about it. There is personal conversion involved, which requires passing through the fire of the refiner, so as to remove the dross of our pride as dross is removed from gold.
Most people do not want to pass through that refinement and get creative. They change the rules to appease their conscience and ease their guilt. They redefine constants as variables and make a different gospel. The true meaning of faith has been lost due to the apostasy.

And how do you know that your statement in blue does not apply to you and your Church?

 

[MormonFriend]

And how do you know that your statement in blue does not apply to you and your Church?

For starters, we acknowledge and we accept the necessity of trials as a means of refinement, knowing that we cannot return to our Heavenly Father unless our pride is purged. I get feedback from most Christians that anything but believing is works and not needed, or in fact negative in light of trying to earn salvation.

But you will respond, I hope, to the levitation and Napoleon vs. faith issue we were discussing.

 

[bbbbbbb]

For starters, we acknowledge and we accept the necessity of trials as a means of refinement, knowing that we cannot return to our Heavenly Father unless our pride is purged. I get feedback from most Christians that anything but believing is works and not needed, or in fact negative in light of trying to earn salvation.

But you will respond, I hope, to the levitation and Napoleon vs. faith issue we were discussing.

But of course in light of the fact that you have not denied the probability that the statement can very well apply to yourself, too.

We were discussing the nature of faith and your assertion was the purer and higher faith is that which requires a greater level of belief. Please pardon my paraphrase. If you wish I can quote your post verbatim.

I simply responded that using that approach to faith, then if I believe that I am a world-renowned person, when, in fact, I am a mere humbug, requires an astounding amount of faith. Thus, my faith is of a purer and higher variety than that of lesser mortals who do not believe so. Similarly, it requires superlative faith in order for me to believe that I levitate on a systematic basis. Thus, my faith would be insuperably purer and higher than that of lesser mortals who could not imagine such a thing.

It seems to me that you link faith with obedience. They are two separate things entirely. One can obey without the least bit of faith and one can have faith without the least bit of obedience.