Do Orthodox ever suffer from scrupulosity? (Serious)

[RKO]

I have never heard of it, but you good folks here are MUCH more well adjusted than a lot of the people on forums.

Do you all have the concept of scrupulosity? In case you don't, it's the tendency to think EVERYTHING is a sin. For example, on a Catholic forum, a young college girl was on a rowing team and asked if it was a MORTAL sin to wear her uniform because of the spandex. She asked the question of a priest who wisely advised her to talk to her own priest about scrupulosity.

Does it ever affect anybody here, and if so, do priests work with people to get over it?

By the way, I know you guys don't have a concept of mortal sin and I find that very wise.

 

[Lukaris]

I think this is just a general sense of insecurity interacting with faith. It seems it could affect anyone susceptible to it; hopefully the individual can come to grips with their anxiety.

 

[InnerPhyre]

It does exist I would imagine, within Orthodoxy, but Roman Catholicism is particularly susceptible to scrupulosity because of the distinction between Mortal and Venial sin and the view of sin as a legal offense against God.

 

[RKO]

I think this is just a general sense of insecurity interacting with faith. It seems it could affect anyone susceptible to it; hopefully the individual can come to grips with their anxiety.

I think you are right. EVERY time I have come across anyone suffering from scruples, there is something else going on. Some sort of generalized anxiety.

I also wonder if the juridical nature of the RCC lends itself to more scrupulosity than the EOC's theology of sin in general. If I understand it correctly, life is a progress toward union with God. Sin is setback. Obviously some are worse than others, but sin is sin.

In the RCC it seems to me much like the penal system. Misdemeanors, class A felonies, Class B, C,D etc.

 

[Lukaris]

I think you are right. EVERY time I have come across anyone suffering from scruples, there is something else going on. Some sort of generalized anxiety.

I also wonder if the juridical nature of the RCC lends itself to more scrupulosity than the EOC's theology of sin in general. If I understand it correctly, life is a progress toward union with God. Sin is setback. Obviously some are worse than others, but sin is sin.

In the RCC it seems to me much like the penal system. Misdemeanors, felonies, class A felonies, etc.

I think its just an obsessive compulsive tendency affecting faith whether it be Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox or some other religious tradition.

 

[InnerPhyre]

I think you are right. EVERY time I have come across anyone suffering from scruples, there is something else going on. Some sort of generalized anxiety.

I also wonder if the juridical nature of the RCC lends itself to more scrupulosity than the EOC's theology of sin in general. If I understand it correctly, life is a progress toward union with God. Sin is setback. Obviously some are worse than others, but sin is sin.

In the RCC it seems to me much like the penal system. Misdemeanors, felonies, class A felonies, etc.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I am going to generalize a bit here, so I am not saying this is true for all Roman Catholics, but while I was Catholic, I noticed a trend to only focus on mortal sins. Venial sins were minimized, and the purpose of life was to avoid falling into mortal sins. Unfortunately, this leads to people dissecting their sins individually, and rather than looking at the problem as a whole (I have sinned), they spend a lot of time wondering what KIND of sins they have committed. Was that thought I had violent enough to be considered a serious matter? Did it just pop into my head and leave or did it stay there long enough to qualify for "full knowledge and consent?" If it is determined that the sin does not meet the criteria for being mortal, it can simply be forgotten, as it will be automatically absolved by attending the Mass.

The Orthodox view is sometimes accused of de-emphasizing so-called mortal sins by placing them in the same category as the "lesser" sins, but it is actually quite the opposite. We are unwilling to gloss over the "small" sins because the mere fact that we commit any sin means that our human nature has not been healed and deified. Sin is the symptom of the greater problem which is ignored in the West.

Here we come to the key difference between the soteriology of East and West. For the West, sin is primarily an offense against God for which there is a legal punishment unless certain requirements are met. In the East, sins are the aberrant product of our fallen nature which now allows our corrupted passions to govern us. This nature can only be healed through repentance, discipline, and ultimately, through communion and cooperation with the saving energies of God. The mindset goes from "I have offended God and will be thrown into prison" to "I am very ill indeed and need the mercy of the Physician, without whom, I have no hope."

 

[Anhelyna]

IP - I've been thinking how to express this You have managed so much better than me.

I've been away for a few days , spending some time with my Confessor . The way the expected unexpected happened, as it usually does, nothing we had planned actually came off.

However during and after Confession this topic came up [ he is bi-ritual and lives and works in a HUGE RC Parish ] and he was also commenting specifically on the way East and West look at confession - with the RC Parish he finds they concentrate on what they have done wrong and seem unable to look at the reason behind the sin. Whereas in the East we tend to look at the reason for sinning . We don't expect to be given a penance to atone for our sin , we expect/hope to be given help as to how to conquer the fault in us which leads us to sin.

We tend to look at our Confessors recommendation for 'something' to do as medicine to help overcome this illness/sickness.

 

[gzt]

Yes, Orthodox can and do suffer from it. I have not personally had issues, but this is something that a priest would definitely work with in confession. In some cases, additional professional psychological or even psychiatric help may be advised in conjunction with this.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

When I was Catholic, I was overly scrupulous. I obsessed on my sins and issues and was at confession WEEKLY and sometimes DAILY! I was so obsessed with my legal standing and this mortal vs. venial stuff and the overall legal mindset that I was spiritually unhealthy.

Since being Orthodox, I've noticed many sins I struggled with to be much less common in my personality, I sin less than in the past, I only go to Confession once every couple months, occasionally once a month, but overall I feel SO MUCH healthier spiritually, and my relationship with God is now one of son and loving Father rather than plaintiff and judge surrounded by bailiffs and jury.

 

[RKO]

This is a fascinating conversation. This is another area that I feel so much closer to Orthodoxy than my own church.
Anhelyna, so the Eastern Catholic rites seem to be much more in line with Orthodoxy on this. Is that the case? I didn't even know the Vatican would allow that sort of thing...

 

[ArmyMatt]

I know some folks who I would say suffer from that, I used to when I first converted and was all hyperdox (like checking to make sure Skittles had no dairy in them.......I am not joking).

 

[buzuxi02]

The problem today is the opposite. 99% of Christians today don't believe there is such a thing as sin except for murder. The only scrupu (whatever the heck that word is) they suffer from is worrying about offending homosexuals and polluting tne environment.

Even the OP about spandex is a legitimate one about modesty in dress which the physically fit girls have no problem wearing but the chubby girls would prefer the fad went away.

 

[SuperCloud]

Yeah, this thread is interesting and informative. I had no idea the Orthodox didn't have a mortal vs venial sin concept. In terms of Catholicism vs Protestantism and the "windows" they look out of onto the world, I always thought of the Catholic conception of mortal sin as wise, common sense, and rather self evident. Like beating someone over the head with a bat to steal their money and rape their girlfriend was not a sin on par as stealing a cookie out of a cookie jar.

But I can see where the Catholic conception and relation toward sin has its shortcomings relative to Orthodoxy.

In fairness to Catholicism, from what I have read, Catholicism traditionally views the purpose of law as first and foremost to promote virtue in a population. And only secondarily for punishment. In fact, mercy is held above punishment.

That Catholic viewpoint of (purpose for) city, state, and federally legislated laws is quite different than the secular mindset for the purpose of law. To some extent at least. And this delves into the philosophical debates over Negative Liberty (freedom) vs Positive Liberty (freedom).

Libertarians supposedly are the harbingers of Negative Liberty. Which is basically a view of freedom being external. Religions on the other hand view freedom as internal (Positive Liberty), coming through "self realization," and the individual can not know if they are free unless told so by a majority population or elites (priests--or in a secular context politicians and political interest groups such as with the LGBT movement). And in the USA both Republicans and Democrats are mostly disciples of Positive Liberty (e.g., instructors, social engineers with a mission to indoctrinate young minds against homophobia, and to re-educate the homophobic), however on certain agendas they are hardcore champions of Negative Liberty (e.g., abortion, gun rights).

The issue of mercy being the greater over punishment is one context to understanding the Father-brother relationship of the Bishops that helped shield priests having sex with teenage boys or prepubescent boys, from the wrath of secular law enforcement from the cops to the courts to the prisons.

The problem today is the opposite. 99% of Christians today don't believe there is such a thing as sin except for murder. The only scrupu (whatever the heck that word is) they suffer from is worrying about offending homosexuals and polluting tne environment.

Even the OP about spandex is a legitimate one about modesty in dress which the physically fit girls have no problem wearing but the chubby girls would prefer the fad went away.

I don't know about the Orthodox but I would say the vast majority of Catholics--including a significant number of the clergy--do not believe in sin, and if they believe in sin they think God is not going to put anyone in hell. Not even serial killers. However, due to the prejudice, they are pretty certain pedophiles will be damned to hell. Them and maybe President Putin because they think he is the biggest antagonist against Political Correctness and the New World Order. The latter an unforgivable offense.

But it's possible that the Catholic emphasis on a "legal" mindset about sin has in some way helped lead to a total rejection of the concept of sin in the West. Maybe.

I don't hate Pope Francis nor do I dislike him. I like certain attributes about him. And I pray God leads him in his office and ministry. However, I don't like what appears to me as a Washington D.C. style politics being played over sin by Pope Francis and the Vatican. He may have empathy for drug addicts but he has publicly opposed decriminalizing drugs like cocaine, heroin, or even marijuana. If he wants to save lives and homes then he should publicly call for the criminalization of beer and alcohol. But he and the Vatican are opponents (as am I) of criminalizing the functional addiction of homosexuality. A person that is a frequently drunk homosexual that every blue moon snorts powder heroin or smokes a "joint" is engaged in various sins. But for political purposes the Catholic Church chooses to oppose only the "joint" smoking and heroin snorting with a viewpoint towards laws and attitudes.

I mean... the Vatican can not isolate itself from the political life of mankind. However, the Vatican and Catholic Church today strike me as almost utterly political institutions.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I think you hit the nail on the head. I am going to generalize a bit here, so I am not saying this is true for all Roman Catholics, but while I was Catholic, I noticed a trend to only focus on mortal sins. Venial sins were minimized, and the purpose of life was to avoid falling into mortal sins. Unfortunately, this leads to people dissecting their sins individually, and rather than looking at the problem as a whole (I have sinned), they spend a lot of time wondering what KIND of sins they have committed. Was that thought I had violent enough to be considered a serious matter? Did it just pop into my head and leave or did it stay there long enough to qualify for "full knowledge and consent?" If it is determined that the sin does not meet the criteria for being mortal, it can simply be forgotten, as it will be automatically absolved by attending the Mass.

The Orthodox view is sometimes accused of de-emphasizing so-called mortal sins by placing them in the same category as the "lesser" sins, but it is actually quite the opposite. We are unwilling to gloss over the "small" sins because the mere fact that we commit any sin means that our human nature has not been healed and deified. Sin is the symptom of the greater problem which is ignored in the West.

Here we come to the key difference between the soteriology of East and West. For the West, sin is primarily an offense against God for which there is a legal punishment unless certain requirements are met. In the East, sins are the aberrant product of our fallen nature which now allows our corrupted passions to govern us. This nature can only be healed through repentance, discipline, and ultimately, through communion and cooperation with the saving energies of God. The mindset goes from "I have offended God and will be thrown into prison" to "I am very ill indeed and need the mercy of the Physician, without whom, I have no hope."

I just wanted to thank you for this post. I'm coming to understand, but it is still very helpful to read things like this. Thank you.

I wonder if I understand rightly then that a priest would be more concerned with things like what it was in the person that caused them to sin, and what effect that sin had on their spiritual health - as opposed to how "serious" the sin was.

I'm trying to think of an example, and I can't think of a good one. Perhaps something minor, like a thought a person might be very prone to have that points to a growing pride within them, or lack of love? Which the thought itself might not be a very grievous sin. Compared to something that was maybe a more serious sin (generally speaking) but maybe performed out of desperation and that didn't seem to point to an ongoing spiritual condition? Ah .... maybe stealing a great deal of money, but to pay for a parent's necessary operation? Terrible example I guess. I was trying to make a "bad sin" that didn't imply a "bad person".

 

[Anhelyna]

Kylissa

I think most of the Orthodox here would agree with what I'm about to say - and this is from personal experience.

I was with my Confessor and had admitted breaking the Fast in a big way [ believe me it was ] Now at this stage I would have moved onto the next sin if I were RC BUT being EC this developed more into a conversation about what was my reason for breaking it , not really why did I break the Fast. He knew I did observe the fast strictly so clearly was concerned.The result was I was instructed very clearly about how he would permit me to observe the Fast in future and I have to admit I'm much more 'comfortable' during Fast periods now - and I know he will check on me too and he's put me under obedience for this change of fasting.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Kylissa

I think most of the Orthodox here would agree with what I'm about to say - and this is from personal experience.

I was with my Confessor and had admitted breaking the Fast in a big way [ believe me it was ] Now at this stage I would have moved onto the next sin if I were RC BUT being EC this developed more into a conversation about what was my reason for breaking it , not really why did I break the Fast. He knew I did observe the fast strictly so clearly was concerned.The result was I was instructed very clearly about how he would permit me to observe the Fast in future and I have to admit I'm much more 'comfortable' during Fast periods now - and I know he will check on me too and he's put me under obedience for this change of fasting.

Oh, thank you Anhelyna!

Fasting is a perfect example. I appreciate that. And now that you explain, I can see how that can play out.

So confession can be a bit of a conversation, hm? LOL ... I'm not completely sure how I feel about that, but I guess it's better that way. I know sometimes I ask very uninformed questions.

Thank you though, that helps me understand quite a bit. I have an idea of the "whys" and the general thought, but sometimes there are gaps in understanding that likely won't be filled in until I go through it myself.

In some ways, my priest is already acting in that capacity, of course. I spoke with him about things like prayer and fasting for guidance, and he was very helpful, and he does check on me sometimes, and then checks back about personal things I have gone to discuss with him. It's not confession of course, but I kind of think maybe it functions in something of the same way, minus the sacramental aspect.

Thank you very much.

(And I appreciate and am sorry that you shared something personal in order to explain - I hope that it didn't distress you.) God bless!

 

[RileyG]

It does exist I would imagine, within Orthodoxy, but Roman Catholicism is particularly susceptible to scrupulosity because of the distinction between Mortal and Venial sin and the view of sin as a legal offense against God.

Yes. I also have OCD which ties in with my scrupulosity. sigh...

 

[Anhelyna]

Kylissa

Believe me I thought pretty carefully as I typed that - if you re-read it you will see I gave nothing away

I see my Confessor only for short periods unfortunately, so we have to take any opportunity for Confession we can. This time I went over on Tuesday and it took , thanks to all that developed while I was there , till Friday morning to get those precious moments together [ actually I took his cellphone away so he could not be interrupted ] Being deaf, we do usually use his house /study so I have sufficient privacy, so yes it can develop into a conversation. If I am in front of the Iconostasis , then yes Confession is much shorter and a little more formal. It always ends though with a hug and a big smile.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Kylissa

Believe me I thought pretty carefully as I typed that - if you re-read it you will see I gave nothing away

I see my Confessor only for short periods unfortunately, so we have to take any opportunity for Confession we can. This time I went over on Tuesday and it took , thanks to all that developed while I was there , till Friday morning to get those precious moments together [ actually I took his cellphone away so he could not be interrupted ] Being deaf, we do usually use his house /study so I have sufficient privacy, so yes it can develop into a conversation. If I am in front of the Iconostasis , then yes Confession is much shorter and a little more formal. It always ends though with a hug and a big smile.

I understand. I didn't mean to imply anything, btw. But I am learning that things like fasting are not really open for discussion and since you paired that with confession - I was just kind of sensitive to the fact that you were willing to share and I was grateful. I'm still learning my way.

Thank you. I'm glad you finally got your time for confession. Priests can be so busy it seems! Having to travel must make it even more of a challenge (and kind of necessary that you get your time in there when you can).

God bless, dear sister. BTW, I hope Isolde is doing ok. Still praying for her.