Do Catholics pray to Mary?

[stivvy]

Hello, I am back. You posts are all very interesting. I am interested in the doctrinal statements that are in Maccabee, or some such as someone mentioned. I suppose all I am trying to understand is why you pray with/to Mary. You all have told me why, but what gave you the idea...did you read it somewhere?, does the Catholic Church teach that in a manuscript?, is it in books taken out by protestants? I see the logic you all put together for it, but where did you get ithe idea that this is beneficial from?

We are respectful to our families. If we truely believe in the holy family and all the saints are alive, then why would you not respect and honor their role in holding up the church and bearing witness to God's love even with their very lives. We honor that and show it in remembering things they did and their lives by declaring days to read about them and to say thank you and to teach new generations. We do it in the secular world with our leaders and such, so why not in the church? Mary was the Mother of God and is married to God, so her place is extra special. It is simple logic and simple love and simple respect. Common sense.

Also, of course I do believe that those who have died are with the Lord. But I do not understand why one would ask them to pray for them...why not just pray directly to God? Would you say it is being partial to "value" Mary over other saints? God has the power to do anything, why do we need to ask through others and whatnot?
Thanks

We definately do pray directly to God, but in addition we can focus on God's great love through the lives of the saints and the more people we have praying for our forgiveness of our sins and for strength and support of the Father, the better. If you truely want to back what you are saying, then you must, here and now declare that asking your earthly family and friends for prayers for your needs is wrong. Are you prepared to do so? And if not, where is the difference if you believe the saints and angels are alive in Christ and part of your family?

 

[InTheCloud]

Peter, the last post by Where was really respectfull. I do not believe he is a troll.
So remember that faith without works is death faith and be more charitable.
(Hey why a templar and not a hospitaller?)

Where:
In the Reformation there was a change in Coventantal theology.
The Catholic Church like most of the historical protestant denominations believe in a Covenat between God and Men (dispesatioanlism is another story).
The problem was that many of the Reformers were lawyers and they put the Covenant in legalistic terms. It was like a contract with God.
The Hebrews and the Catholics look at the Covenant as a family relationship, with Mary acting as the physical mother of the visible Church. She was in a literal sense the first Christians, the Ark on the new alliance and the mother of the family.

The saints in Heaven do pray for the saints in Earth. The battle of salvation is on.
The book of Maccabees have two prophets coming to pray with Jonathan Maccabi in dreams before the battle that lead to the purification of the Temple.

That is consistent with the role of the Saints in Revelation.

I do not see Prostestans saying, why ask someone else to pray for you, why do not just pray to Jesus alone. They are prayers warriors in Protestant Churches that will pray also for you. The Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox follow this advise guided by Maccabees and Revelations to include asking the people already on heaven to pray with us too. And who is not better that the first Christian?

 

[Davidnic]

Mod Hat

Calling visitors, who are simply asking questions, trolls exhibits a lack of charity and can be, depending on the circumstances, a flame. I want to remind everyone that if you feel someone is a troll report it. But attacking someone in thread will not be allowed.

Mod Hat

 

[anawim]

But I do not understand why one would ask them to pray for them...why not just pray directly to God?

It's the same as if I were to ask you to pray for me. That means we are both praying to God about the same concern. Scripture commands us in several places to pray for one another.

We know that the souls in heaven are aware of at least some events on Earth, because in Rev. 6:9-10 it talks about the souls of the martyrs who are under the altar are crying out for justice against those who persecuted them. If they didn't know that their deaths had not yet been avenged, they would not have asked.

 

[InTheCloud]

BTW here is the passage of 2th Maccabees, chapter 15.

11 So he armed every one of them, not with defence of shield and spear, but with very good speeches and exhortations, and told them a dream worthy to be believed, whereby he rejoiced them all. 12 Now the vision was in this manner: Onias who had been high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in his looks, gentle in his manners, and graceful in his speech, and who from a child was exercised in virtues, holding up his hands, prayed for all the people of the Jews: 13 After this there appeared also another man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty: 14 Then Onias answering, Raid: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias the prophet of God. 15 Whereupon Jeremias stretched forth his right hand, and gave to Judas a sword of gold, saying: 16 Take this holy sword a gift from God, wherewith thou shalt overthrow the adversaries of my people Israel. 17 Thus being exhorted with the words of Judas, which were very good, and proper to stir up the courage, and strengthen the hearts of the young men, they resolved to fight, and to set upon them manfully: that valour might decide the matter, because the holy city and the temple were in danger. 18 For their concern was less for their wives, and children, and for their brethren, and kinsfolks: but their greatest and principal fear was for the holiness of the temple.

Now look at this:

The Apocalipse of John. Chapter 5.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne. 8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:

Is clear reading those two passages that the saints in Heaven pray along with the saints in Earth.

 

[hsilgne]

Veritas makes a good point.

We(Catholics) need to understand that "prayer" in essence is a form of worship for most Protestants. This is what they are taught. So with this in mind, we should always be sure to clear this up first. Because on the surface when we say "Yes, we pray to Mary", your typical Protestant will hear, "Yes, we worship Mary".

That is why I believe conveying that we pray with Mary and ask her to pray for us is a better statement to begin dialogue on the subject.

Something to keep in mind when sharing with our Protestant brothers and sisters.

 

[PetersKeys]

Actually I believe the picture he is using is Barak Obama, and the Muslim beard is superimposed. I also think it is disgraceful and does nothing to promote Christian values.

And Im sure there are many who think its disgraceful for people who claim to be Catholic to vote for such a man who is so pro-abortion that is makes the Clintons look like children in comparison. Much more disgraceful than any picture

 

[WarriorAngel]

Hello,

Do Catholics pray to Mary? If so, why?
Thanks
-Where

Prayer actually means to converse ...and with those who are in Heaven.

For instance, we know Mary 'spoke' to the Angel Gabriel.
Conversing with the Angel means Mary was praying.

If you look back into Genesis, you will see the term 'I pray thee' ...which means to talk to...to request from.

It has evolved in our times to mean a strict conversation with God, but scriptures never speaks that we can only pray [converse] with God.

In fact - our era confuses praying with worshipping.


Genesis 12
13 Say, therefore, I pray thee, that thou art my sister: that I may be well used for thee, and that my soul may live for thy sake.

Genesis 47
4 We are come to sojourn in thy land, because there is no grass for the flocks of thy servants, the famine being very grievous in the land of Chanaan: and we pray thee to give orders that we thy servants may be in the land of Gessen.

Genesis 50
17 That we should say thus much to thee from him: I beseech thee to forget the wickedness of thy brethren, and the sin and malice they practiced against thee: we also pray thee, to forgive the servants of the God of thy father this wickedness. And when Joseph heard this, he wept.

Praying means to ask. And is used as much in Genesis as it is when those in scriptures speak to Angels.

So yes, we may pray to Mary.
Praying does not mean worship.

I think the language barriers are so important to note.

We ask Mary - to seek Grace from God on our behalf.
For the prayer of the righteous availeth much...so says scriptures.

 

[winsome]

As others have said pray means ask, or ask earnestly.


From the Online Entymology Dictionary:
c.1290, "ask earnestly, beg," also "pray to a god or saint," from O.Fr. preier (c.900), from L. precari "ask earnestly, beg," from *prex (plural preces, gen. precis) "prayer, request, entreaty," from PIE base *prek- "to ask, request, entreat" (cf. Skt. prasna-, Avestan frashna- "question;" O.C.S. prositi, Lith. prasyti "to ask, beg;" O.H.G. frahen, Ger. fragen, O.E. fricgan "to ask" a question). Prayer (c.1300) is from O.Fr. preiere, from V.L. *precaria, noun use of L. precaria, fem. of adj. precarius "obtained by prayer," from precari.

So pray actually means ask earnestly or beg. If you read old English plays you will find phrases such as “prithee sir” (pray you sir) or “where are you going I pray” Some Christians try to narrow the word pray to mean only addressing God. But we can ask earnestly anyone. If we pray to Mary, we are only addressing her and earnestly asking her for her intercession.


Here are a couple of examples of using pray as asking from that great English writer, Jane Austin:


“But pray, Colonel, how came you to conjure out that I should be in town today?” (Mrs Jennings to Colonel Brandon in Sense and Sensibility)


"Oh! cousin, stop a moment, pray stop!" (Fanny Price to Edmund in MansfieldPark)

 

[winsome]

Saints in heaven are as much alive as the saints on earth (us) - they just have no physical bodies. And they are all part of the one Body of which Christ is the head. We really believe in the body of Christ.

So when St. Paul says:
“For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in the one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.” (1 Cor 12:12-13)
We see this applying to those that are now in heaven as much as those of us on earth.

As St. Paul says:
“For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Rom 8:38-39)

James says:
“The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective” (Jas 5:16)

And you don't get much more righteous than those who have run the race to the end.


The writer of Hebrews uses the image of running a race with those who have gone before us cheering us on. “Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.” (Heb 12:1).

 

[isshinwhat]

In addition to the wonderful explinations you have already received, here is a response to a question from a CCD student of mine.

Long story short is Mary prays for us just like we pray for one another, the only difference being she and all the other Saints are already in Heaven where we hope to be. God being too busy to hear us is not correct, because God cannot be too busy, He's all powerful... Not only that, but He's the perfect Father and is never too busy for His children.

To go deeper into it, we know from the Bible that the Saints in Heaven are aware of our trials on earth and pray for us. For instance, in 2 Maccabees 15:12-14, Judas Maccabeus relates a vision he had of the deceased High Priest Onias. In it he says, "Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man... was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews." In the vision, Onias then introduces him to the Prophet Jeremiah, also deceased at this point, saying of Jeremiah that he, "...is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people [of God] and the holy city..."

We know from this chapter alone that the Saints pray for us in Heaven, but there is more, too. The very end of Hebrews 11 lists many great Saints from the Old Testament and their accomplishments. Chapter 12 begins by referring to them as it says that, "we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses..." Those Saints, those witnesses which surround us are doing just like Onias and Jeremiah were in 2 Maccabees, praying for us in our need.

So now that we know they pray for us, how do we know that they can offer our prayers along with theirs through Jesus to the Father? Revelation 8:5 says tells of an angel that "...came and stood at the altar [in Heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God..." Revelation 5:8 also speaks of, "twenty-four elders [who] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." You can see here, our prayers are joined with the prayers of ALL the Saints and Angels and offered to God. They are aware of our prayers and needs, and offer their prayers along with ours to God.

This is why we pray to Mary and the other Saints (angels included). The Bible and Church both teach that the Saints are closer to us now than they were when they were alive because they are now in perfect union with Jesus, and it is because of that union with Christ that they know and care what we are doing here on earth and pray for our needs.

Let me know what I need to clarify for you and I will.

 

[Where]

Ok,

I now understand your reasoning. Some more verses such as one poster gave would be helpful. I am having trouble grasping Mary being married to God, as someone mentioned. Could anyone expand upon that?

 

[JoabAnias]

Ok,

I now understand your reasoning. Some more verses such as one poster gave would be helpful. I am having trouble grasping Mary being married to God, as someone mentioned. Could anyone expand upon that?

Mary the Mother of Jesus: Saint

• • Mary: An Introduction
  • A Biblical Portrait of Mary
  • Mary: Virgin and Ever Virgin
    • Constant faith of the Church
    • Magisterium of the Church
    • Protestant Reformers
    • Objections to Continued Virginity
  • The Immaculate Conception of Mary
  • The Assumption of Mary
  • Private Devotions to Mary: The Rosary
    • Development of the Rosary
    • Prayers of the Rosary
  • Apparitions of Mary

And:

The four principal dogmas relating to the Blessed Virgin Mary are:

1. Her title as Mother of God
2. Her Perpetual Virginity
3. Her Immaculate Conception
4. Her Assumption into Heaven
   Bibliography

 

[Where]

I have another thought...

I am noticing that there is nothing in the references given that mentions it being advised or ok to ask saints in heaven for intercession. The verses in Revelations are only stating that the saints in heaven can hear our prayers. The bit about them having prayers of the saints in with the incense...what does everyone make of the fact that Revelations is a very symbolic book...who exactly are these saints? Wouldn't praying to saints or Mary automatically give them some sort of omniscience? Can they hear silent prayers? There is also no mention of those prayer being offered to God by the saints in chapter 5. Why couldn't the angel in Rev. 8 Jesus? He is called the Angel of Jehovah in the Old testament, for example. As far as the reference in 2 Maccabees goes I do appreciate it. I cannot really give much credit to it however. In Luke 11:51, for instance, Jesus mentions Abel to Zechariah's death...that only covers up to Malachi. Neither Christ nor anyone else references this book. The Jews never accepted it either.
Thanks
-Where

 

[IgnatiusDeLoyola]

The Deuterocanonical books were accepted by all Christians until 1520, and the Jews accepted it until 90AD 57 years after the birth of Christianity. Furthermore i seem to recall there were multiple new testament references of the Deuterocanonicals... lets see Revelations 1:4 and 8:3-4 reference Tobit 12:1, 1Corinthians 15:29 references 2Maccabees 12:44, and Hebrews 11:35 references 2Macabees 7:29. and i happen to know for a fact the tales of Judith are still told by peoples of the Jewish faith. The bible the apostles and Jesus used would be the LXX (pronounced and sometimes spelled Septuagint) which most certainly included the Deuterocanonicals. Again the Jewish Scripture contained the Deuterocanonicals until the Council of Jamnia in 90AD.

 

[Where]

Nevertheless, neither Christ nor any apostles referenced these books. Since they are the subject of some debate it would seem to me that if the Jews never accepted ithem (they did revere some of the books as useful, though not as scripture) and Christ never accepted them, there is good reason to doubt their validity. Plus, apparently Jerome distinguished them from the other books in the Vulgate which put them aside in a sense. That happened much sooner then the 1600's too.

 

[Where]

I'm sorry, it looks like your post changed on me

 

[IgnatiusDeLoyola]

Sorry ad to look some things up and edit them in please reread my post. BTW his private View that they were lesser books was in the forth century (correct me if i'm wrong about date it could have been third) as he was translating them from the LXX THE jewish scripture of its day.

 

[Where]

I read the Revelations verses and compared them to Tobit...I don't see any correlation al all really. The Corinthians verse is similar to the 2 Maccabee, except it deals with baptism, not praying for them. They only agree on the fact that there was and will be a resurrection. The Hebrews and Corinthains verses really give no support for Maccabees being reliable. Just because they mention similar things doesn't make Maccabees reliable. Just like how the Quran mentioning Jesus doesn't make it reliable.

I said reliable three times at the end of three sentences in a row, neat. lol

 

[IgnatiusDeLoyola]

I read the Revelations verses and compared them to Tobit...I don't see any correlation al all really. The Corinthians verse is similar to the 2 Maccabee, except it deals with baptism, not praying for them. They only agree on the fact that there was and will be a resurrection. The Hebrews and Corinthains verses really give no support for Maccabees being reliable. Just because they mention similar things doesn't make Maccabees reliable. Just like how the Quran mentioning Jesus doesn't make it reliable.

I said reliable three times at the end of three sentences in a row, neat. lol

No these allusions were not primary proofs, but the fact that the Deuterocanonacles were accepted universally among early christians and all but the Pharisaical Jews should count for something i believe. XP