Do Catholics pray to and worship Idols, of Mary or Saints

[EastCoastRemnant]

It's just a case of "he said, she said" -- except with denominations. The OP presented the case made by that member's denomination. There's another one to be made by the other denomination. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

What is the truth as shown in the Bible? or do you have another truth?

 

[Albion]

What is the truth as shown in the Bible? or do you have another truth?

I see that you highlighted my statement that the 'truth' is somewhere in the middle. As you can see, I was speaking of the claims made by different denominations, so when I said 'truth,' I was referring to the accuracy of statements made in the OP concerning what the different denominations actually do and believe. That's not to take to side of either church, just a comment that exaggerations enter into such discussions and it's best to keep them under control.

 

[Armoured]

Praying to Mary is the same as me praying to a rock to receive a blessing from God. Am I worshipping the rock?... I must be, if I am placing it above God... if I am praying to it instead of God.

If you could provide scripture to show where we are taught to pray to anyone other than the Father, please do.

Catholics don't pray to anyone but God.

 

[Albion]

Catholics don't pray to anyone but God.

Well, let's not go overboard in denying the OP. There is no question but that they DO pray to the saints, Mary included, even if they think they are petitioning them to carry a message or concern to God.

And there is no doubt that some of these prayers state that the saint is capable of delivering what has been requested. So again, the truth of it all is not as simple as it can seem at first.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

And there is no doubt that some of these prayers state that the saint is capable of delivering what has been requested. So again, the truth of it all is not as simple as it can seem at first.

That ascertain has zero Biblical reference yet you state that it could be truth?? Do you subscribe to the " there is no absolute truth" theory? The Bible says otherwise...

 

[Armoured]

Well, let's not go overboard in denying the OP. There is no question but that they DO pray to the saints, Mary included, even if they think they are petitioning them to carry a message or concern to God.

And there is no doubt that some of these prayers state that the saint is capable of delivering what has been requested. So again, the truth of it all is not as simple as it can seem at first.

We can ask saints for intercession =/= "praying to"

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

We can ask saints for intercession =/= "praying to"

Says who... the Bible or man's tradition?

 

[Armoured]

Says who... the Bible or man's tradition?

What are you talking about? Neither. The dictionary says what the difference is.

 

[Albion]

That ascertain has zero Biblical reference yet you state that it could be truth?? Do you subscribe to the " there is no absolute truth" theory? The Bible says otherwise...

Frankly, I have no idea(s) what you're trying to express there. Would you care to restate it?

 

[Albion]

We can ask saints for intercession =/= "praying to"

Of course it is. The church that promotes it admits that it is. The church excuses it by using a certain explanation, but it's praying to the saints without any doubt. Would you care to discuss why praying to the saints is or isn't right to do??

 

[JackRT]

For most people who take their faith seriously, an icon or image is not an idol. It is a symbol for a concept that lies in the spiritual realm beyond the artistry that created the representation. These people are not fools, do you seriously think they worship a statue or a painting as a deity? Having said this, there are people who in their ignorance and/or extreme piety might indeed raise an icon to the level of an idol. Some protestant Christians do this with the bible itself and become bibliolators and some catholic Christians do this with Mary and become mariolators. In many Christian denominations the use of icons as a focal point for meditation, for prayer or for worship is widespread and very traditional but once again, the icon is an aid to faith not the aim of faith. The accusation that Christians who use icons are idol worshippers to me is both a failure to understand what an icon is and a convenient way to mock and deride an unfamiliar faith tradition.

 

[Albion]

For most people who take their faith seriously, an icon or image is not an idol. It is a symbol for a concept that lies in the spiritual realm beyond the artistry that created the representation. These people are not fools, do you seriously think they worship a statue or a painting as a deity? Having said this, there are people who in their ignorance and/or extreme piety might indeed raise an icon to the level of an idol.

Yes, that's the real issue.

Some protestant Christians do this with the bible itself and become bibliolators

...and that's not so.

The charge of "bibliolatry" sounds cute but does not refer to literal idolatry. It cannot, in fact, since there is no image involved. What's more, you have not seen people lighting votive candles to a Bible, saying that the Bible itself will intercede with God, or anything like that. What you mean--although it's not a true statement--is that they attribute too much authority to the Word of God (as if that were possible ??). This is an entirely different subject from idolatry.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Some protestant Christians do this with the bible itself and become bibliolators and some catholic Christians do this with Mary and become mariolators.

Total fail on trying to associate the practice of venerating saints to loving God's Word... I would proudly wear the badge of worshipping the Creator through His Word.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

In many Christian denominations the use of icons as a focal point for meditation, for prayer or for worship is widespread and very traditional but once again, the icon is an aid to faith not the aim of faith. The accusation that Christians who use icons are idol worshippers to me is both a failure to understand what an icon is and a convenient way to mock and deride an unfamiliar faith tradition.

Just because we are discussing specific idol worship related to one denomination does not mean that the vast majority of professed Christians don't make idols of their pastors, their place of worship, their position in the church etc... the main difference is the petitioning of God through anyone but His Son Jesus Christ.

Is this not a portion of the rosary prayer?

“Hail, holy Queen [of heaven], Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears.”

Anyone that prays that way is replacing Christ, the Divine with something else... that is against the first as well as the second Commandment.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Frankly, I have no idea(s) what you're trying to express there. Would you care to restate it?

Look at what I quoted from you in post #25... you are suggesting that the truth is not so easy to determine if there is more than one perspective... wrong, truth is truth and if we need a compass to point us to the truth it is the Bible and the Bible alone!

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Luckily Catholics don't worship idols, so your point is moot.

Your Popes say something different... they are the ones who set your doctrines, are they not.

Pope Pius IX in 1854 “Let all the children of the Catholic Church ... Proceed to worship, invoke, and pray to the most blessed Virgin Mary, mother of God. ”

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I wanted to state here and now that I do not think that sincere, God fearing Catholics or anyone for that matter that have been told lies by their church leadership, are primarily guilty of these sins. However, those that are made aware of the Truth as found in God's Word are to be held accountable to the light given them. To willfully ignore sound doctrinal counsel is not going to excuse your sins.

I am curious to know why Catholics feel they cannot pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ, the way the Bible tell us to?

 

[chevyontheriver]

I am curious to know why Catholics feel they cannot pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ, the way the Bible tell us to?

I would be curious to know about that as well. Maybe you could tell us why we cannot do that?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I would be curious to know about that as well. Maybe you could tell us why we cannot do that?

The question is... why don't you do it? What is the purpose of praying the rosary and other recital type prayers? Jesus reproofed the repetition of words masquerading as worship in Matt. 6:7
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

 

[Albion]

Look at what I quoted from you in post #25... you are suggesting that the truth is not so easy to determine if there is more than one perspective...

And I explained, in my post #22, where you made your mistake. I was not speaking of truth itself but what is the truth regarding a certain matter.[/QUOTE]