Do Catholics pray to and worship Idols, of Mary or Saints

reddogs

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Many Catholics pray for the help of the Virgin Mary but Mary is dead, buried in the ground and turned to dust, so why would Catholics pray to an idol of her much less any idol. As has been clearly established in the Bible that God is a jealous God and that one should not pray to any other save him and also do not encumber any images of anything in heaven or on earth. Jesus came to intercede on our behalf, so why would any Christian go to Mary or another saint. Jesus clearly said that no one comes to the Father except by him and he is our intercessor on our behalf. Christians can only pray to and worship the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, not Mary or statues of 'saints'.

Despite what many Catholics believe, there is much more idolatry in the Roman Catholic Church than one would imagine. It is possible that in some cases this may not be apparent in some Catholic Church but it does exist in a huge way is especially obvious in South America and in Rome. For example, the early church did not have any statues or idols, but as paganism was brought into the Catholic Church the pagan statues they were used to had to be given Christian names to allow them come in, the Statue of St Peter in St Peters Cathedral was originally the statue of the pagan god Jupiter. The Roman Goddess Venus became St. Venera, and Aphrodite became St. Aphrodite. The Roman God Mars was originally a God who guarded wheat fields. He became St. Martin, the major festival for him in Christian times now usually falls in February, called Mardi Gras 'Great Mars'. The Roman God Quirinus became St. Cyrinus, Lares became St. Lawrence. Not all Pagan saints are even based on Pagan Gods. Some are based on Pagan holidays. For example the Roman festival of Caro Patri ('Dear Parents' a festival to remember one's ancestors) in the Roman Pagan calendar of Philocalus became the festival of St. Peter's Chair in the Roman Catholic Martyrology or saints' calendar.

In the Catholic church there are said to be over 10,000 'saints' who have been created. Part of the reason is that many of these saints were created to provide a Christian focus for a local pagan god or religious tradition. Without a saint in place, the local customs would have continued in their original pagan guise and the local gods would have retained their pagan identity. The reason so many saints were created was to prevent this.

Now some claim that the statute of the saints are not being worshipped but if you look at the statue of Statue of St Peter in St Peters Cathedral, it has had its foot kissed away and replaced because of the multitude of Catholics that have bowed down to this statue and kissed its foot. There can be no other name for this other than idolatry, especially when this was originally a pagan god. There are many more such examples that could be given of where the Catholic Church is involved in worshiping other gods in forms other than statues. Many people don't realize that the biggest sun dial in the world is the eight-rayed sun wheel, which was symbolic of the god Ishtar and is located in St Peters Square in the Vatican.

Some try to dispute that Catholic Church incorporated pagan images into their worship and even religious practices which came all the way from Babylon but even Catholic historians admit it.

"The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church. ( An Essay on The Development of the Christian Doctrine John Henry; Cardinal Newman p.373.)

'It has often been charged' that Catholicism is overlaid with many pagan incrustations. Catholicism is ready to accept that accusation and even to make it her boast 'the great god Pan is not really dead, he is baptized'. ( The Story of Catholicism p 37.)

"It is interesting to note how often our Church has availed herself of practices which were in common use among pagans. Thus it is true, in a certain sense, that some Catholic rites and ceremonies are a reproduction of those of pagan creeds. (The Externals of the Catholic Church, Her Government, Ceremonies, Festivals, Sacramentals and Devotions, by John F. Sullivan, p 156, published by P.J. Kennedy, NY, 1942).

The College of Pontiffs (Collegium Pontificum) came from the religion of the original Council of Pontiffs at Babylon. Cardinal Newman in his Development of Christian Doctrine, says that they incorporated many pagan religious practices into the Church. He claims that the Church sanctified them and that made it safe to bring these practices into the Church. The Catholic Council of Trent also declared that: 'It is lawful to have images in the Church and to give honour and worship to them ... Images are put in Churches that they may be worshipped.'

That doesn't seem to leave much wiggle room to deny the true purpose of the idols.
 
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reddogs

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The Oxford dictionary defines an idol as:“An image used as an object of worship. A person or thing that is the object of excessive devotion.” .

So an Idolater is a worshiper or devoted admirer of idols but what does the Bible say about images and idols?

1. Exodus 20:4-5
“Thou shalt not MAKE unto thee ANY graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not BOW DOWN thyself to them Nor SERVE them.”
2. Leviticus 26:1
“You shall make you NO IDOLS nor GRAVEN IMAGE. Neither rear you up a STANDING IMAGE. Neither shall ye set up any IMAGE OF STONE in your land to bow down unto it.”

3. Deuteronomy 4:16
“Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and MAKE you a GRAVEN IMAGE, the similitude of ANY FIGURE, the likeness of MALE or FEMALE.”

4. Deuteronomy 16:22
“Neither shalt thou SET thee UP ANY IMAGE: which the Lord thy God HATES.”

5. 1 Thessalonians 1:9
“How ye turned to God FROM IDOLS to serve the living and true God.”

6. Deuteronomy 27:15
“CURSED be the man that MAKES ANY GRAVEN or MOLTEN IMAGE, an abomination unto the Lord, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place.”

The early Christians followed what the Bible said and turned from any idol worship and kept them out of the church and did not allow any images. Early Christian writers such as Irenaeus, Clement, Cyprian, Athanasius and Jerome wrote strongly against images, statues and any manner of prayer or veneration regarding them. The church councils voted repeatedly to keep out any images or idols as they knew the danger.

So when the church at Rome began to allow it into the church they faced a paradox in what the Commandments said and what they were doing, but it didn't take long for them to get around what Gods Commandments said. The Catholic Church in its version of the Bible, removes the second Commandment against making graven images from the list of the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20:1-17. This presents them with the problem of only having 9 Commandments. They resolve this problem by splitting Commandment number 10 into 9 and 10. That is: 9. You shall not covet your neighbour's wife. 10. You shall not covet your neighbour's goods.

But do you think God is fooled by this.....
 
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Castaway57

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That doesn't seem to leave much wiggle room to deny the true purpose of the idols.
They dont want any "wiggle room;" nor do they need it with a thread like this where you just start taking pot shots at them. You are doing to them what we have often protested that others not do to us. You are defining their beliefs, and their practices from your own view point, and arbitrary sources which are not official Roman Catholic doctrine. Is there some reason you dont go to the original sources for all your lets shoot the Catholics threads like this? What a strange way to "witness for Jesus" you have.

I am sure many Catholics and others will be converted to Jesus because of your religious diatribe here.
 
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When I was growing up, as a catholic, I remember that those who prayed to Mary did so because they were taught that Mary was full of merits just for being the mother of Jesus. I remember people praying to the "saints" because they were taught that these people had earned their way to Heaven through the merits of their good works and because they had merits they could intercede for us sinners. But the virgin Mary, we were told, had more merits than anyone else. That is why many prayed to her more than to anyone else.

What the Bible teaches is that Jesus is the only meritorious name for His merits alone avail with God. His intercession in Heaven consists in pleading before the Father the merits of His infinite sacrifice in our behalf, claiming the gift of the Spirit that He may pour it upon us.

The Bible also teaches that we are to pray for one another and the best way to do that is by pleading the merits of Jesus in behalf of one another for, "the merits of Christ's sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.

The merits of Christ's shed blood are efficacious. They are our only plea. Since they are our only plea, why don't we talk about them?

"When Satan comes to tell you that you are a great sinner, look up to your Redeemer and talk of His merits." S.C.36.

I believe that before Christ came to this earth the Father made a covenant with Him. The Father promised Him that He would receive all who would come to Him trusting wholly in the merits of His great sacrifice and they would be greatly blessed.

sky
 
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ricker

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When I was growing up, as a catholic, I remember that those who prayed to Mary did so because they were taught that Mary was full of merits just for being the mother of Jesus. I remember people praying to the "saints" because they were taught that these people had earned their way to Heaven through the merits of their good works and because they had merits they could intercede for us sinners. But the virgin Mary, we were told, had more merits than anyone else. That is why many prayed to her more than to anyone else.

What the Bible teaches is that Jesus is the only meritorious name for His merits alone avail with God. His intercession in Heaven consists in pleading before the Father the merits of His infinite sacrifice in our behalf, claiming the gift of the Spirit that He may pour it upon us.

The Bible also teaches that we are to pray for one another and the best way to do that is by pleading the merits of Jesus in behalf of one another for, "the merits of Christ's sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.

The merits of Christ's shed blood are efficacious. They are our only plea. Since they are our only plea, why don't we talk about them?

"When Satan comes to tell you that you are a great sinner, look up to your Redeemer and talk of His merits." S.C.36.

I believe that before Christ came to this earth the Father made a covenant with Him. The Father promised Him that He would receive all who would come to Him trusting wholly in the merits of His great sacrifice and they would be greatly blessed.

sky

Curious you are still focused on "merits". Do we have to go back here?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7745647/#post63084490
 
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Castaway57

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In my youth I asked a Nun: Why pray to Mary?
I was told that GOD is very busy. If you tell Mary she will whisper in his ear for you.

Don't think the GOD that created this universe is too busy to hear a prayer.
Hey; that avatar of your's is scary! ;)
 
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RDKirk

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That doesn't seem to leave much wiggle room to deny the true purpose of the idols.

Ever debate a Muslim imam on whether Christianity is really polytheism?

He will have his own definitions of what the three Persons of God are, and you won't easily (if at all) shake him of his belief that Christians pray to three separate gods. He's got his mind made up regarding what you believe.

You're doing the same thing.
 
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Castaway57

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The Oxford dictionary defines an idol as:“An image used as an object of worship. A person or thing that is the object of excessive devotion.” .


But do you think God is fooled by this.....
I dont think God is fooled either by the pictures, carvings, etc that Adventists have of Jesus, or three angels in their sanctuary. You should really think through better some of your "lets shoot the Catholics" posts here. Each one just gets worse.
 
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Castaway57

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Oh good. Another Catholic bashing thread.
yes! isn't it exciting?

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Castaway57

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Ever debate a Muslim imam on whether Christianity is really polytheism?

He will have his own definitions of what the three Persons of God are, and you won't easily (if at all) shake him of his belief that Christians pray to three separate gods. He's got his mind made up regarding what you believe.

You're doing the same thing.
You are correct. Point and Shoot Theology has never worked in the past. I am not sure why people keep doing it.
 
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WindHund

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reddogs said:
Many Catholics pray for the help of the Virgin Mary but Mary is dead, buried in the ground and turned to dust, so why would Catholics pray to an idol of her much less any idol.

Not so fast! While the usual end for most is the grave, God at times takes people to heaven early. Moses is a good example. Don't forget those who were raised with Jesus at his resurrection. I suspect there are a number of people who have gone to heaven early such as some of the disciples, etc.

However, if Mary was in heaven I am sure she would not be pleased to hear people pray to her.
 
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Castaway57

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Not so fast! While the usual end for most is the grave, God at times takes people to heaven early. Moses is a good example. Don't forget those who were raised with Jesus at his resurrection. I suspect there are a number of people who have gone to heaven early such as some of the disciples, etc.

However, if Mary was in heaven I am sure she would not be pleased to hear people pray to her.

Thats a good point Br. Lyndon and. I am sure the same would apply to any of the ones who went to heaven early. I dont think a lot of Catholics view their practices with. Mary and statues etc half as harshly as do some of us Sadventists who like to grumble about Catholics instead of talk about. Jesus

I mean really. When we talk about Mary we should automatically also be talking about Jesus. But instead we tend to pervert it into some kind of shoot the catholic session

The connection that. Mary had with Jesus and the amazing relationship that she had with Him should be the direction of any discussion we have of Mary with our Catholic brethren.
 
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reddogs

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In my youth I asked a Nun: Why pray to Mary?
I was told that GOD is very busy. If you tell Mary she will whisper in his ear for you.

Don't think the GOD that created this universe is too busy to hear a prayer.
Wow, I guess they don't go by scripture at all...
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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You are correct. Point and Shoot Theology has never worked in the past. I am not sure why people keep doing it.
Not true brother.... we are told to call sin by it's right name and those that are truly seeking after Christ will accept the reproof as any of us should if we were called on a sinful practice. Do you consider it "extra-marital bashing" when someone is reproofed for adultery? Worshipping idols is an abomination to the Lord just like homosexuality and every other sin... but the world does not want to hear that , do they?

I suspect, but of course may be mistaken, that your salvation theology centers of the love of Jesus only and not on the repentance from sin. It's interesting that so many different faiths today can be coming together on this point of Jesus' love while ignoring the weightier matters of the Law. Contrary to what pope Francis is saying, the Bible does not place Mercy above Judgement... they are inseparably linked.
 
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Armoured

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Not true brother.... we are told to call sin by it's right name and those that are truly seeking after Christ will accept the reproof as any of us should if we were called on a sinful practice. Do you consider it "extra-marital bashing" when someone is reproofed for adultery? Worshipping idols is an abomination to the Lord just like homosexuality and every other sin... but the world does not want to hear that , do they?

I suspect, but of course may be mistaken, that your salvation theology centers of the love of Jesus only and not on the repentance from sin. It's interesting that so many different faiths today can be coming together on this point of Jesus' love while ignoring the weightier matters of the Law. Contrary to what pope Francis is saying, the Bible does not place Mercy above Judgement... they are inseparably linked.
Luckily Catholics don't worship idols, so your point is moot.
 
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Albion

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That doesn't seem to leave much wiggle room to deny the true purpose of the idols.

It's just a case of "he said, she said" -- except with denominations. The OP presented the case made by that member's denomination. There's another one to be made by the other denomination. The truth is somewhere in the middle.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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Luckily Catholics don't worship idols, so your point is moot.

Praying to Mary is the same as me praying to a rock to receive a blessing from God. Am I worshipping the rock?... I must be, if I am placing it above God... if I am praying to it instead of God.

If you could provide scripture to show where we are taught to pray to anyone other than the Father, please do.
 
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