Do all liberals support abortion and LGBTQ+?

[SkyWriting]

Then the Church should be abolished and the Apostles and Saint Paul branded apostates.

I'm not allowed to agree, per forum rules.
Otherwise, I would.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I'm not allowed to agree, per forum rules.

Is your inclination to utterly privatize Christianity and make it devoid of a communal element? Can you understand why I or others might resist said inclination?

I ask not to get you in trouble but to understand this perspective.

 

[SkyWriting]

Is your inclination to utterly privatize Christianity and make it devoid of a communal element? Can you understand why I or others might resist said inclination? I ask not to get you in trouble but to understand this perspective.

Sure. People resist all changes. It took me decades to disown conservatism and identify it's errors. I would certainly expect this direction to take lot of time. I am very compassionate toward fundamentalists. I've made every mistake myself.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Sure. People resist all changes. It took me decades to disown conservatism and identify it's errors. I would certainly expect this direction to take lot of time. I am very compassionate toward fundamentalists. I've made every mistake myself.

So given this desire to privatize faith, where do you derive this urge from? Does it come naturally from thinking about Christianity or does it come from secular principles of individual liberty over any collective understanding of society?

You would be willing to concede Christians before you have not had this vision, not Paul, not the Apostles, not even our Lord.

 

[SkyWriting]

So given this desire to privatize faith, where do you derive this urge from? Does it come naturally from thinking about Christianity or does it come from secular principles of individual liberty over any collective understanding of society?

You would be willing to concede Christians before you have not had this vision, not Paul, not the Apostles, not even our Lord.

None of them recommended that churches have buildings.
I don't support any that do.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

None of them recommended that churches have buildings.
I don't support any that do.

Are buildings immoral?

 

[SkyWriting]

Are buildings immoral?

Not a majority. Mostly just the older ones. The newer ones are closer to bare space.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Not a majority. Mostly just the older ones. The newer ones are closer to bare space.

So it's a sin to own older buildings? Is that relative to when one is born or was there a certain point in time at which architecture changed making buildings not sinful?

I am confused by your morality that allows for abortion (at any stage?), seemingly without any condemnation or recognition of it's moral consequences but doesn't allow for one to own old buildings.

 

[SkyWriting]

So it's a sin to own older buildings? Is that relative to when one is born or was there a certain point in time at which architecture changed making buildings not sinful?

I am confused by your morality that allows for abortion (at any stage?), seemingly without any condemnation or recognition of it's moral consequences but doesn't allow for one to own old buildings.

I understand your desire for confusion.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I understand your desire for confusion.

We're done then.

 

[*Starlight*]

I'm liberal (although not necessarily in the American sense) and I think these are both complicated issues, and it's an oversimplification to say that I "support" them or not (I voted for LGBTQ and against abortion in the poll).

When it comes to LGBTQ, I don't have anything against homosexual people, I recognize gender dysphoria as a legitimate medical issue treated with a transition, and I don't have anything against people who don't fit into traditional gender roles. However, a lot of modern LGBTQ activism is needlessly hostile, and includes some really questionable ideas, so I can't really say that I'm on board.

As for abortion, I think it should be treated in a similar way to self-defense. That is, in certain cases killing someone is allowed, but you shouldn't be able to just kill a fetus for any reason.

 

[XianGoth1334]

Abortion is murder. I am glad that Roe V Wade was overturned. I hope states create commonsense parameters for emergency medical abortion (as in not letting the mother die over an ectopic pregnancy). When there must be harm, do only what you must.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Thank you very much Hark. We need more people to treat each other as they want to be treated, even on heated issues like LGBT and abortion rights.

 

[GodLovesCats]

I’m a conservative, but I understand the rules of this forum and I’ll be respectful of liberal Christians in this thread.

Do all liberals, specifically liberal Christians, support abortion and LGBTQ+?

Just wondering how much these issues are tied to politics.

It is true that all liberals support the pregnant woman's right to choose whether she has an abortion or gives birth . . . to a less limited extent than all conservatives. Anyone who holds the extremist position of permitting abortion for any reason up to the mother's due date is a progressive Democrat or socialist, not a liberal Democrat. There are some liberals who support banning abortion after 24 weeks except to save the mother's life. Others support the mother's right to choose abortion of a fatally defective fetus everyone involved knows would suffer constantly if born, then die at a very young age. I am in that group because the most important thing is quality of life. But this is an extremely important fact to remember: pro-choice =/= pro-abortion. Very few people want a healthy woman to be allowed to have a healthy fetus aborted after 24 weeks and none of them are liberals.

On the LGBT rights issue, it is all about equality. Equal rights are protected in the U.S. Constitution. Medical researchers have concluded in multiple studies sexual orientation and sexual identification are genetic traits, so as of now, we can say God made people that way. I will happily stand corrected about this when peer-reviewed long-term studies of thousands of LGBT people that are performed, written, and fact-checked by specialists in the topic confirm we only have genes for biological sex, not sexual orientation and identification.

My view on LGBT rights stops at allowing parents of a transgender child to make him/her the opposite sex. Gender dysphoria should always be treated as a psychiatric disorder, not a physical one, unless the person was born with both reproductive systems.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

It is true that all liberals support the pregnant woman's right to choose whether she has an abortion or gives birth . . . to a less limited extent than all conservatives. Anyone who holds the extremist position of permitting abortion for any reason up to the mother's due date is a progressive Democrat or socialist, not a liberal Democrat. There are some liberals who support banning abortion after 24 weeks except to save the mother's life. Others support the mother's right to choose abortion of a fatally defective fetus everyone involved knows would suffer constantly if born, then die at a very young age. I am in that group because the most important thing is quality of life. But this is an extremely important fact to remember: pro-choice =/= pro-abortion. Very few people want a healthy woman to be allowed to have a healthy fetus aborted after 24 weeks and none of them are liberals.

On the LGBT rights issue, it is all about equality. Equal rights are protected in the U.S. Constitution. Medical researchers have concluded in multiple studies sexual orientation and sexual identification are genetic traits, so as of now, we can say God made people that way. You can't be a Biblical person by hating who you are and hating other people for hating who they are. And you certainly cannot be a patriotic American citizen if you want to force everyone to be heterosexual, which is genetically impossible.

So there is a point at which you would force a woman to carry a child to term?

 

[hedrick]

So there is a point at which you would force a woman to carry a child to term?

I would argue that the image of God requires the ability to think, love, etc. That doesn’t exist until the prefrontal cortex is working. That’s about 2/3 of the way through. I’d be willing to accept restrictions beyond that. I consider the current conservative Protestant position to be based on heretical anthropology. Catholics have different grounds. I disagree, but don’t consider them heretical.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I would argue that the image of God requires the ability to think, love, etc. That doesn’t exist until the prefrontal cortex is working. That’s about 2/3 of the way through. I’d be willing to accept restrictions beyond that. I consider the current conservative Protestant position to be based on heretical anthropology. Catholics have different grounds. I disagree, but don’t consider them heretical.

By willing to accept restrictions what do you mean? Would you allow abortion beyond the 2/3 mark if the woman truly didn't want the child?

 

[XianGoth1334]

What about a liberal pro-life position? One that restricts abortion in almost all cases (yes, of course, there have to be exemptions) while also supporting measures intended to lift mother and child out of poverty? I am not referring to the sad and rare cases where there are medical complications, rape / incest, etc. I am referring to abortion on demand, casual abortion, abortion as birth control, etc... (the majority of abortions). Why not tell the mother she has to carry the child to term and be a mother AND also provide the family with what they will need for success?

 

[GodLovesCats]

The full and true Christian position on abortion is pro-life. I would suggest any who are pro-choice here to seriously reconsider their opinion.

As far as LGBTQ, I support women's rights but I think recent trans activism has harmed the feminist movement. Feminism is also not what it once was.

I believe the bible is clear about homosexuality and such relationships. Anyone who identifies as gay and Christian should be practicing celibacy until they meet the Lord face to face.

It is not possible to support women's rights and oppose abortion at the same time. Abortion is mostly about women's rights.

The Bible is clear that all marriages must be heterosexual, but I am not aware of verses that say being gay or lesbian itself is a sin as long as the person remains single and celibate. Can you cite some?

 

[GodLovesCats]

Some don't support LGBT at all and some support gays but not transgender people. Others support transgender people but not the surgeries. There is a lot of variation.

I think many are single-issue voters. It means they primarily vote for a candidate for one thing and may not agree with any other position they have.

This is much more common on the Republican side.