DNA and Christ's Birth

[cradleGO]

Yes, it could have been any female in the Davidic line, just to stay in line with prophesy. You haven't proven that it had to have been Mary. Except maybe she was the only woman in the Davidic line was the right age in the right circumstance at the right time.


Why would it be bad if Mary were merely a surrogate?

No, it's not greatly diminished at all. Adam was fully man, and there is no indication that "fully man" means anything more than being certainly flesh. Jesus is considered a "second Adam," after all.

Everything you're talking about is philosophical corollary that men have devised over time to "fill in" things they have thought scripture forgot to reveal.

No. Under the zygote theory, Mary could be any female. To the Jews, Jesus getting His Davidic tie-in through Joseph was enough.

Mary being a surrogate, in addition to being demeaning to her as a fully fertile woman, would negate the entire history of the Hebrews and the Jews. What do they matter? And, it would erase the meaning of her consent to the Incarnation. It would be a work for hire, right? Nothing personal.

Jesus was the son of Mary, not the surrogate for {what is your theory, here?}

In my fun hypothetical, Jesus is not only connected to Adam via Mary, but also through Joseph. I like that possibility - and it is a possibility.

 

[Jonaitis]

Given the Statement of Purpose I think this fits. Jesus is fully human and fully God to the Orthodox (me). The Orthodox even say He is the God-man. We know that Jesus got His maternal DNA from His Mother. That leaves the origin of His paternal DNA. Remember - He is fully man.

We know that the Gospels talk about Him having brothers and sisters. This is usually explained as a 1st century term of art which can mean cousin or similar relation. I think there is a citation of Him being similar looking to the Apostle James the Less, his "brother", the first bishop of Jerusalem. And similar references.

We know that given our technology today that humanity leaves its DNA everywhere. And stem cells - creative factors - can be created from various other cells. That is with OUR technology. Today. What if Gabriel, acting from God, found and used Joseph's DNA when He made the invitation/announcement to the Virgin Mary? What if that were the source of Jesus' paternal DNA?

We know that Jesus received His linkage with the House of David through both Joseph's line as well as Mary's line. Mary's was the Royal line, but Joseph was also from the House of David. And tracing Jesus' lineage through Mary was proper according to Jewish Law. If Joseph's DNA was used, then Jesus was fully doubled linked to David. And Jesus truly had brothers and sisters - meaning stepbrothers and stepsisters (edited).

Reaction?

It is impossible to put the biblical account into scientific investigation. In order for Jesus to have a Y-Chromosome, and to generate and develop half of his genome, he would have to have a biological father (whether he got it from Joseph or God gave him one out of nowhere). Mary alone cannot do this.

 

[prodromos]

In my fun hypothetical, Jesus is not only connected to Adam via Mary, but also through Joseph. I like that possibility - and it is a possibility.

It would be wholly inappropriate for God to use what is essentially discarded human cells for His Son's DNA.

 

[RDKirk]

It would be wholly inappropriate for God to use what is essentially discarded human cells for His Son's DNA.

"Wholly inappropriate" is your own philosophical opinion. It was "wholly inappropriate" for Him in the opinion of others to have Rahab in the Savior's family tree.

 

[prodromos]

"Wholly inappropriate" is your own philosophical opinion. It was "wholly inappropriate" for Him in the opinion of others to have Rahab in the Savior's family tree.

My response was to the OP who is also Eastern Orthodox. In the context of Eastern Orthodox theology, it is inappropriate. I don't have an interest in what various Protestant theologies might have to say.

 

[Sabertooth]

And Jesus truly had brothers and sisters - meaning stepbrothers and stepsisters (edited).

At best, half-siblings. Same mother, different father.

 

[cradleGO]

At best, half-siblings. Same mother, different father.

No. I think the consensus of mainline Christians, including the EO, is that Mary had no children after Jesus. So, these would be Joseph's children by his previous wife.

 

[RDKirk]

No. I think the consensus of mainline Christians, including the EO, is that Mary had no children after Jesus. So, these would be Joseph's children by his previous wife.

I go along with the second wife theory.

 

[Sabertooth]

No. I think the consensus of mainline Christians, including the EO, is that Mary had no children after Jesus. So, these would be Joseph's children by his previous wife.

This is not an EO sub-forum. Scripture does not require Mary to be a perpetual virgin.

 

[prodromos]

This is not an EO sub-forum. Scripture does not require Mary to be a perpetual virgin.

It is consistent with that view, however.

 

[RDKirk]

This is not an EO sub-forum. Scripture does not require Mary to be a perpetual virgin.

It does, however, correlate with what would have been a definite lack of the respect that Jesus received from His brothers if He'd been the eldest.

 

[cradleGO]

This is not an EO sub-forum. Scripture does not require Mary to be a perpetual virgin.

You challenge me yet you postulate a second husband to Mary? Where is that scriptural?
What I said was accurate, I believe. Mainline Christians view Jesus' "brothers and sisters" as either cousins or "half-siblings" via Joseph, perhaps both.

 

[cradleGO]

It would be wholly inappropriate for God to use what is essentially discarded human cells for His Son's DNA.

Why inappropriate? On what basis? Humans shed DNA in everyday activities. Joseph's DNA is there with Gabriel and Mary (assuming Joseph took Mary in to his house as 'betrothed', which I think was the Jewish practice).

Nonetheless, Joseph's DNA is both abundant and accessible. And it is no more [ritually] unclean or embarrassing than the billions of bacteria in their colons, and millions in their mouths. This is human life.

 

[prodromos]

Why inappropriate? On what basis? Humans shed DNA in everyday activities.

For the same reason the Gospel books on the altar of the Orthodox Church are clad in precious metal and not the dead skins of animals.

 

[prodromos]

If Jesus was a blend of Mary and Joseph's DNA, then He would have shared many of Joseph's features, which would then have discredited the virgin birth.

 

[Sabertooth]

...yet you postulate a second husband to Mary?

No. That the named brothers and alluded sisters were the subsequent natural children of Joseph & Mary; that she did not remain a virgin after delivering Jesus.

I do not see where you could have pulled a "second husband" out of my post (though that would not have been sin if Joseph left her as a widow...).

...as either cousins or "half-siblings" via Joseph, perhaps both.

Most people that I have met who insist on them being cousins reject them as "half-siblings."
If Jesus had none of her DNA,

• Mary would have been a surrogate and
• none of her natural children would have been related to Him through her,

but Scripture does not give us enough information to make that assumption.

 

[Diamond7]

I do not agree that 'Her Seed' means Jesus.

Her seed has to mean Jesus. Also if Abraham is Hebrew then He has to be descended from Adam and Eve. We read in Rev about 144,000 that are pure. This is a reference to their DNA. 12,000 from each tribe. The whole point of the flood was the inner marriage and God wanted to keep the Hebrew people pure.

Of course the issue with Abraham is Hagar and Sarah. The child of bondage and the free child. Armageddon has to do with a battle between the descendants of Sarah and the descendants of Hagar. This is a type of our flesh and our spirit.

 

[RDKirk]

Her seed has to mean Jesus. Also if Abraham is Hebrew then He has to be descended from Adam and Eve. We read in Rev about 144,000 that are pure. This is a reference to their DNA.

Not necessarily. Science has given us a hammer. That doesn't turn everything--or even anything--into a theological nail.

 

[Diamond7]

Not necessarily. Science has given us a hammer. That doesn't turn everything--or even anything--into a nail.

We can talk science all day long if you want. In this case we are talking about the Bible. Not hammers. In Genesis 3:15 the seed of Eve is Jesus through Mary. It took 4,000 years for this prophecy to come true. Revelation talks about 144,000 that are pure. This talks about their DNA. If God can preserve 144,000, He can preserve one through Jesus.

One thing I want to see is the first conversation between Eve and Mary. What would they talk about? Adam was the first man, Christ was the second man. Before Adam the Bible refers to male and female but not man and women. There is a song: Man! I Feel Like A Woman!” by Shania. She did not say you make me feel like a female. She said "women". The Bible uses female until Eve and she was the first women. Genesis 2 23 " “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man.”. Later in Genesis she was called wife, mother and Eve. It was through her children that she would be saved.

 

[cradleGO]

For the same reason the Gospel books on the altar of the Orthodox Church are clad in precious metal and not the dead skins of animals.

Say, do you know what parchment is made of? Any idea how the best parchment - vellum - was used? Any idea what was often written on that vellum?

Your reasoning is wholly unconnected to my speculation. If Jesus was fully human then he had a full complement of DNA. It seems farfetched that the Holy Spirit would use some "ideal" mystical sperm - the "I cannot believe its not sperm" sperm kind - when Joseph's DNA is readily available, and ties Jesus to Adam even more closely.