Did Jesus Warn Us of the "Christ" Paul Met in the Wilderness?

HebrewVaquero

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Alas I fear you have failed to understand my post. My point is that whereas it is proper to search for Christological prophecy in the Old Testament, we should not presume to judge books of the New Testament against it.

So in other words, one can piously search the Old Testament for confirmation of the New. One should not however attempt to revise the New on the basis of perceived conflicts with a Rabinnical, Karaite or other Judaic intepretation of the Old.

Which is precisely what you and Jarooshalom are doing in asking us to reject St. Paul.

I do not ask you to reject St. Paul, rather I ask you to prove St. Paul using the same criteria the first Christians and modern day Jews use to prove Jesus.

Now is your chance to emulate St. Paul by 'being all things to all people'. A Gentile may accept the New Testament at face value, however for a Jew it must be proved by the Tanakh. I'm sure even St. Paul would encourage you to prove his message by the Tanakh.

!Come on make Paul proud!
 
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Wgw

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I do not ask you to reject St. Paul, rather I ask you to prove St. Paul using the same criteria the first Christians and modern day Jews use to prove Jesus.

Now is your chance to emulate St. Paul by 'being all things to all people'. A Gentile may accept the New Testament at face value, however for a Jew it must be proved by the Tanakh. I'm sure even St. Paul would encourage you to prove his message by the Tanakh.

!Come on make Paul proud!

"There is neither Greek nor Jew." Someone wishing to be a pious Christian must accept the authority of the Church, the Body of Christ, the New Israel (Romans 2:28-29 et cetera) against which the Gates of Hades will not prevail (Matthew 16:18). Having accepted that authority, one may the read with thee Church the Old Testament, in harmony with the Church, and find confirmation of the doctrines of the New.

Not the other way around. We are not the first Christians; the Church has been established, and the holy councils and fathers have addressed these various controversies more than a thousand years in the past. So there is simply no need to revisit these issues; to do so I would suggest would put us in opposition to Matthew 16:18.
 
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HebrewVaquero

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"There is neither Greek nor Jew." Someone wishing to be a pious Christian must accept the authority of the Church, the Body of Christ, the New Israel (Romans 2:28-29 et cetera) against which the Gates of Hades will not prevail (Matthew 16:18). Having accepted that authority, one may the read with thee Church the Old Testament, in harmony with the Church, and find confirmation of the doctrines of the New.

Not the other way around. We are not the first Christians; the Church has been established, and the holy councils and fathers have addressed these various controversies more than a thousand years in the past. So there is simply no need to revisit these issues; to do so I would suggest would put us in opposition to Matthew 16:18.
I wonder if it wise to take the same attitude as to math or spelling as you have stated you do for your religion? In other words, in a world of calculators and spell check why bother to learn how the basics are arrived at?
Thank you for the conversation, you've taught me much about the Orential Orthodox position.
 
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Colter

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Much of the New Testament is about Paul's spiritual experience with the Jesus of the Damascus road. The gospels were written well after Paul's, by way of Peters, teaching of the new gospel about Jesus had begun to influence even the recollection of Jesus. Basically Paul's Christen theology is overlaid on top of Jesus early gospel of The Kingdom of Heaven.

It should be obvious that Jesus didn't go around Israel for 3+ years teaching Paul's "Christ and him crucified". In the original good news gospel Gods forgiveness was not conditional to an innocent man dyeing rather it was conditional to a sincere person repenting of the old life and taking up the full measure of responsibility for a new life.
 
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Wgw

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I wonder if it wise to take the same attitude as to math or spelling as you have stated you do for your religion? In other words, in a world of calculators and spell check why bother to learn how the basics are arrived at?
Thank you for the conversation, you've taught me much about the Orential Orthodox position.

The problem woth what you propose is that you are suggesting the Old Testament in general, and the Torah in particular, constitutes the "basics" against ehich everything else is to be judged, and this is simply backwards. It is the Gospel message of our Lord which should be first and foremost, which is why in all of the ancient churches, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian, indeed, Anglican, this message is read in the climax of the Liturgy of the Word immediately before te service of the Eucharist.

The Pauline epistles explain this message and Christian theology in the most general way possible, which is why the ancient tradition of the church is to read them also, more frequently than other books, before the reading of the Gospel.

From these texts, we can in turn proceed to understand the Christological signifigance of the Old Testament; we can learn how to correctly regard and interpret it in accordance with Christian rather than Rabinnical Judaic principles, and we can move forward from there.
 
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HebrewVaquero

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The problem woth what you propose is that you are suggesting the Old Testament in general, and the Torah in particular, constitutes the "basics" against ehich everything else is to be judged, and this is simply backwards. It is the Gospel message of our Lord which should be first and foremost, which is why in all of the ancient churches, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian, indeed, Anglican, this message is read in the climax of the Liturgy of the Word immediately before te service of the Eucharist.

The Pauline epistles explain this message and Christian theology in the most general way possible, which is why the ancient tradition of the church is to read them also, more frequently than other books, before the reading of the Gospel.

From these texts, we can in turn proceed to understand the Christological signifigance of the Old Testament; we can learn how to correctly regard and interpret it in accordance with Christian rather than Rabinnical Judaic principles, and we can move forward from there.

Thank you for pointing out my problem Wgw. However what one man considers a problem, another considers a blessing. Such is the case with us.
Just remember the words of Messiah when He said call no man teacher except for Him, (this includes Paul).
Shalom
 
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Wgw

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Thank you for pointing out my problem Wgw. However what one man considers a problem, another considers a blessing. Such is the case with us.
Just remember the words of Messiah when He said call no man teacher except for Him, (this includes Paul).
Shalom

Alas its simply impossible to leave it there, due to Matthew 16:18. What you are effectively proposing is that the gates of Hades prevailed against the Church as a result of it accepting, universally, the epistles of St. Paul, for many centuries.
 
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Colter

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Alas its simply impossible to leave it there, due to Matthew 16:18. What you are effectively proposing is that the gates of Hades prevailed against the Church as a result of it accepting, universally, the epistles of St. Paul, for many centuries.

It never was the institutional church, Jesus was referring to the Father bearing witness to the Son in the heart of the believer. That's what Jesus built his kingdom on, the gates of hades will never overcome the Father validating the truth of the Son with conviction in kingdom believers.
 
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Wgw

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It never was the institutional church, Jesus was referring to the Father bearing witness to the Son in the heart of the believer. That's what Jesus built his kingdom on, the gates of hades will never overcome the Father validating the truth of the Son with conviction in kingdom believers.

I disagree, as do most Christians, living and reposed. This is granted, an appeal to authority, if we set aside St. Paul, but St. Peter in 2 Peter gives us a compelling reason to accept St. Paul. Which in turn brings intomplay the various Pauline epistles which describe the church as a unified Eucharistic communion, a view certainly not refuted elsewhere in the NT.
 
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HebrewVaquero

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Alas its simply impossible to leave it there, due to Matthew 16:18. What you are effectively proposing is that the gates of Hades prevailed against the Church as a result of it accepting, universally, the epistles of St. Paul, for many centuries.
What Colter said, and said so well!
 
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Colter

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I disagree, as do most Christians, living and reposed. This is granted, an appeal to authority, if we set aside St. Paul, but St. Peter in 2 Peter gives us a compelling reason to accept St. Paul. Which in turn brings intomplay the various Pauline epistles which describe the church as a unified Eucharistic communion, a view certainly not refuted elsewhere in the NT.

The institutional church appeals to the authority it established largely in itself. In the failure to live up to the original ideals embodied in the spiritual kingdom of heaven as taught and lived by Jesus, the church became a substitute; the re-Sanhedrin all over again. The church has long interpreted the context of the entire exchange between Jesus and the apostles that fateful day with a bias towards it's own authority. I don't think it was intentional, it came rather natural to man, but it is still of man and has in many ways obscured, stunted, sidetracked and delayed the kingdom.

* Peter and Paul weren't Jesus, it was an unfortunate decision for the church to elevate their words and acts to be equal with The Son of Gods.
 
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Wgw

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The institutional church appeals to the authority it established largely in itself. In the failure to live up to the original ideals embodied in the spiritual kingdom of heaven as taught and lived by Jesus, the church became a substitute; the re-Sanhedrin all over again. The church has long interpreted the context of the entire exchange between Jesus and the apostles that fateful day with a bias towards it's own authority. I don't think it was intentional, it came rather natural to man, but it is still of man and has in many ways obscured, stunted, sidetracked and delayed the kingdom.

* Peter and Paul weren't Jesus, it was an unfortunate decision for the church to elevate their words and acts to be equal with The Son of Gods.

Alas, this is simply wrong, and is a great smear against Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox alike.
 
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Neochristian

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There is in fact nothing in Thomas 108 that can be regarded as incarnational; on the contrary, the peculiar implications of reading that verse literally lend the passage to a non-literal interpretation; either Christ was a mere man speaking metaphorically, or more probably, this work was favoured by those who support a docetic theology.

Note that we have one Church Father on record attributing this volume to the Manichaeans, and all but a few of the more left-wing scholars generally date it to the third century, which makes sense in the grand scheme of thing. Thomas was the name of one of the disciples of Mani, who taught in areas where the Syriac speaking Christians evangelized by St. Thomas the Apostle predominated. So it makes sense that a Manichaean named Thomas would write a psuedepigraphical work in the name of St. Thomas the Apostle, who may well have been the Manichaean Thomas's own namesake.

No, it doesn't lend one that way. It speaks specifically of incarnation. Thomas was started before any of the others, or the same year as the oldest. It wasn't completed until later, but that seems irrelevant.
 
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eartheart

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This implies to the utopian cults like jonestown. Jesus didnt say "believe me" he said "believe in me" that is "believe in the one to come who will rescue you from darkness. hold fast and be patient for i am coming soon. All eyes will see but not all will believe.
Have you ever noticed how the bible gets louder towards the end? As in speaks more directly to the person reading? Even taking a break from the reader when the disciples question his methods of using parables and refuting them saying "unlike yourselves who already know the kingdom of God, they do not, thats why i use parables"... Jesus is there for anyone who has eyes to see, ears to listen
 
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Neochristian

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That's not accurate. All alleged scriptures not in the canon were rejected by St. Athanasius,mwith the exception of certain works like the Shepherd of Hermas, which he noted might be useful for catechesis; later, the Decree of Gelasius specifically identified this work as heretical.

As far as "required reading," goes, this term is a bit misleading. There existed, and exists, in the Orthodox, Catholic and Assyrian churches, and in liturgical Protestant churches, a system called the "lectionary," and there are different lectionaries, but these essentially specify which books are to be read on particular occasions in church, for example, on Easter, at a wedding, or on the 5th sunday after Pentecost. Some books are canonical without being included in the lectionary; the Byzantine Rite liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox and Greek Catholics does not include Revelations, yet these churches do regard it as canonical.

I'm talking about the original Council. Everything I said was accurate. It wasn't until later that someone who didn't put the original canon together decided to declare books heretical, in direct opposition to the will of the creators of the canon.
 
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Wgw

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No, it doesn't lend one that way. It speaks specifically of incarnation. Thomas was started before any of the others, or the same year as the oldest. It wasn't completed until later, but that seems irrelevant.

Your opinion on Thomas 108 is simply wrong. And your opinion as to the dating of Thomas is a subjective opinion, which even those scholars who believe Thomas to be the oldest "gospel" would not agree with, in that they do not presume to be able to fix its authorship to a certain year or to the precise time that another canonical Gospel was written.
 
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Neochristian

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Those who are strong in their faith are those who trust God to lead them into doing what is right in accordance with His commands, not those who trust in their knowledge. Knowing about God is good, but knowing God is far better.

Isn't knowing God a kind of knowledge? I mean there is a "knowing" going on. The word "know" is even used in the sentence. =)
 
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Wgw

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I'm talking about the original Council. Everything I said was accurate. It wasn't until later that someone who didn't put the original canon together decided to declare books heretical, in direct opposition to the will of the creators of the canon.

Which Council? What are you talking about?
 
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