Did Adam sin?

[BukiRob]

Lacking knowledge of good and evil, how should any being - adult or not - be able to understand moral choices? If I lacked such a basic understanding of ethics, I would be incapable of figuring out why obeying a command ought to be regarded as a better choice than disregarding it.

Alas, every Christian denomination has a different way of spinning this tale. Sometimes, God WANTS Man to fall (knowing in advance what's going to happen and having predetermined the outcome); sometimes, He is genuinely surprised (having given free will, and thus being unable to determine Man's choices in advance). Sometimes, the Fall is regarded as almost fortunate (enabling us to relate to God with genuine understanding), sometimes it's the worst curse ever.

At its core, it's a Promethean story: Man gains a piece divine insight, becoming more akin to the god(s), and is punished for it because the deity in charge does not want them to become fully equal.

I find it far more profitable to read what scripture has to say the majority of it, actually the vast majority of it is fairly clear and understandable.

Isaiah 45:7 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Adam had a FAR deeper understanding of G-d in the Garden than you or I ever will in this physical life.Genesis 3:8 implies that it was customary for God to walk with both Adam and Eve in the "cool of the day" Their relationship with G-d was unique to man and will not be like that until Messiah returns.

Adam and Eve were created in-spite of the fact that G-d knew they would fall. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what you and I think. Fair or not, he is G-d and he does not take input in to how his creation is going to unfold. G-d not surprised, taken aback or shocked by anything man does. Angered? Yes.

There is this fallacy that Adam and Eve were primitive. That is a lie. There is a lie that pre flood man was unsophisticated and basically 'cave man' like.. that is a lie.... Pre Flood man had a civilization that was greater than our current civilization. They had advanced knowledge in ALL of the sciences. They knew all about DNA and the Genome and they manipulated it and THAT was why the flood occurred. Every imagination of man was continually evil. Man perverted creation and began to create beings that G-d never wanted, intended or desired. Its why Adonai stated that ALL FLESH (not just man but ALL FLESH) was corrupted and it had to be wiped out.

Noah found favor in G-d's eyes and was untainted by this DNA manipulation as was his wife and so his 3 sons were also untainted....

Why do I say all of this? Yeshua declares that his return would occur when man was living life "AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH" So what is different about today than any other generation since the great flood? Mankind once again has unlocked the secrets of the human genome and DNA... we are already cross breeding animals that in nature would never do so..... consider the Liger. Not only is it a cross between a lion and a tiger they crossed both animals ( I believe it was the dna of a male lion and a femal tiger) that suppressed the gene that inhibits growth... this Liger is over 900 lbs....

As in the days of Noah

 

[BukiRob]

How about this - Adam knew that he shouldn't eat the fruit when she brought it to him. But what if Adam loved Eve so much that when he learned that she had already eaten it, he went along and sinned with her so that she wouldn't be alone in being judged?

This is EXACTLY what he did... You see types and fore shadows in scripture... The Adam of creation died willingly so that his wife Eve would not be alone. He was not deceived and ate knowing full well he was sinning and would die. He laid down his life for her... just like 4000 years later the second Adam who was also without sin at the time of his sacrifice laid down his life for the many who willingly accept G-ds plan and trust in Him.

 

[TKICBS]

That is completely irrational. Does setting people up to certain failure sound like unconditional love to you? Lot was called a righteous man. Would you call a man who commits incest with his daughters righteous? If you can rationalize that, then there is no evil that cannot be rationalized.

The daughters got Lot drunk and took advantage of him while he was incoherent. It was the daughter's sin, not Lot's. His righteousness should remain intact though he would have felt deep conviction for the action. And Lot looked forward for the cross and the redeemer which is what is righteous in the old testament. We look back at the cross and find our righteousness in Christ Jesus.

 

[TKICBS]

This is EXACTLY what he did... You see types and fore shadows in scripture... The Adam of creation died willingly so that his wife Eve would not be alone. He was not deceived and ate knowing full well he was sinning and would die. He laid down his life for her... just like 4000 years later the second Adam who was also without sin at the time of his sacrifice laid down his life for the many who willingly accept G-ds plan and trust in Him.

You are reading into scripture. There is no evidence that Adam did so while thinking he would be separated from God. It is far more likely that his lust to please Eve blinded him from even thinking of the consequences. Satan blinds the eyes of the disobedient.

 

[BukiRob]

You are reading into scripture. There is no evidence that Adam did so while thinking he would be separated from God. It is far more likely that his lust to please Eve blinded him from even thinking of the consequences. Satan blinds the eyes of the disobedient.

Oh the irony.... Kettle meet pot.

Since Adam had not yet fallen he was without sin. As such, how is it that he could be blinded by lust for Eve?

Since Adam had not yet fallen not only is not NOT likely that he was blinded by lust, its all but impossible that he was

 

[Winepress777]

"Did Adam Sin?"

Yes, it most certainly seems so...

Genesis 2:16-17
And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Genesis 3:17

And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;

Romans 5:12-14

Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

 

[TKICBS]

Here is a Baha'i take on the story of Adam and Eve: http://www.bahai.org/library/authoritative-texts/abdul-baha/some-answered-questions/#r=saq_en-30

Why are you quoting Baha'i? The word of the Lord in Mica 4 says whoredom and wine and new wine take away the heart. Babylon the Great the Mother of Harlots is guilty of this very sin. She blends the doctrines of Christ with the doctrines of false gods and by doing this commits whoredom.
If I create a program and write a directory to help others know how it works they can use the program without difficulty. However, if someone else makes a directory without the full knowledge of how my program works they will cause confusion. So is it with God's word. If you stick with God's word and helps that only teach or explain God's word, you will come to a greater knowledge of God and learn to hear and be guided by the Holy Ghost. However, if you mix the word of God with the words of other so-called gods you will come away confused and your hearing will be confused. It will take away your heart.
We are told to cast down every high thought and imagination that rises up against the knowledge of God and bring into captivity every thought into Christ. You cannot do this as long as you think other religions have anything to offer your soul.
If I were to come to your house and teach your children contrary to your own ways you would kick me out, or should. So is it with God. We were grafted in and a true Jew can take our place if we are disobedient. Learn from the old testament. Israel was told over and over not to accept the gods of the other nations. He finally gave up on them. The sins of the Pharisees was no doubt the inner voice of false religions so they could not see their own Messiah even though the word said he would come on the colt of an ass, he would be pierced, he would be sold for 30 pieces of silver, he would be born of a virgin, he would be called Almighty God, etc etc. Daniel even goes so far as to give a date when he would come. 483 years after the order was given to rebuild the temple.
There is a warning in Revelation 17 or 18 to come out of the religions of the world. This means have nothing to do with them.

 

[danny ski]

I find it far more profitable to read what scripture has to say the majority of it, actually the vast majority of it is fairly clear and understandable.

Isaiah 45:7 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Adam had a FAR deeper understanding of G-d in the Garden than you or I ever will in this physical life.Genesis 3:8 implies that it was customary for God to walk with both Adam and Eve in the "cool of the day" Their relationship with G-d was unique to man and will not be like that until Messiah returns.

Adam and Eve were created in-spite of the fact that G-d knew they would fall. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what you and I think. Fair or not, he is G-d and he does not take input in to how his creation is going to unfold. G-d not surprised, taken aback or shocked by anything man does. Angered? Yes.

There is this fallacy that Adam and Eve were primitive. That is a lie. There is a lie that pre flood man was unsophisticated and basically 'cave man' like.. that is a lie.... Pre Flood man had a civilization that was greater than our current civilization. They had advanced knowledge in ALL of the sciences. They knew all about DNA and the Genome and they manipulated it and THAT was why the flood occurred. Every imagination of man was continually evil. Man perverted creation and began to create beings that G-d never wanted, intended or desired. Its why Adonai stated that ALL FLESH (not just man but ALL FLESH) was corrupted and it had to be wiped out.

Noah found favor in G-d's eyes and was untainted by this DNA manipulation as was his wife and so his 3 sons were also untainted....

Why do I say all of this? Yeshua declares that his return would occur when man was living life "AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH" So what is different about today than any other generation since the great flood? Mankind once again has unlocked the secrets of the human genome and DNA... we are already cross breeding animals that in nature would never do so..... consider the Liger. Not only is it a cross between a lion and a tiger they crossed both animals ( I believe it was the dna of a male lion and a femal tiger) that suppressed the gene that inhibits growth... this Liger is over 900 lbs....

As in the days of Noah

Isaiah 45 7 is the most revealing and the most disregarded statement in the Bible. An absolute singularity of Gd and total responsibility.With that in mind, it is an inescapable conclusion that the story of Adam's sin is nothing else than Gd testing his obedience. It's a common enough theme in the Bible. Abraham was tested extensively(contrary to the popular Christian "faith" idea). Job took the obedience testing to wholly different league.

 

[TKICBS]

That is completely irrational. Does setting people up to certain failure sound like unconditional love to you? Lot was called a righteous man. Would you call a man who commits incest with his daughters righteous? If you can rationalize that, then there is no evil that cannot be rationalized.

The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

 

[TKICBS]

Here is a Baha'i take on the story of Adam and Eve: http://www.bahai.org/library/authoritative-texts/abdul-baha/some-answered-questions/#r=saq_en-30

Love the sinner, but hate the sin.

 

[TKICBS]

I do not accept the original sin idea either:

Would Adam and Eve have been the best all human (not divine) beings, which could be cratered?

Would there genes have been as good as genes could be made since no mutations would have occurred in them?

Adam at least is described as being “very good” by God’s standard, so would that be as good as a being could be created?

Who raised (or programmed) Adam and Eve to adulthood?

Who taught Adam and Eve the meaning of all the words God would use (including the word “die”)?

If Adam and Eve were not the best human representatives than the fact that better humans were not given the opportunity to live in the Garden is unfair.

Just because Adam and Eve did not know “good and evil” (which is something they did not need to know at the time) does not mean they did not know: “right and wrong”. I may be wrong to play next to a cliff but is it evil?

There is a ton of stuff Adam and Eve and all of us learn from their Garden experience and some needed to be learned through experience early on. People even today will at some point in their life ask: “How could a Loving God allow this____ tragedy to happen”? What they are really asking for is: “why are we not all in a Garden type situation no: tragedies, hardship, illness or death.

The problem is as Adam and Eve have shown us is: the Garden is a lousy place for humans to fulfill their earthly objective.

Can a toddler sin?

Yes a toddler can sin because sin is disobedience to the law. If I tell my toddler not to climb on the table and they do so they have sinned against me. However, there is an age of accountability. I think this is the age in which a boy becomes a man in God's eyes. This would be 12 years of age. Until then his sins are not held against him, but they are still sin.

 

[donfish06]

In the text he was deceived. Does that make a difference?

Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that Adam was deceived. In fact, the scriptures tell us the exact OPPOSITE:

1Ti 2:14-15 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. (15) Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.​

 

[TKICBS]

Not if our will is aligned with God's Will.

The problem is that we have to learn that His Will for us is what is best for us.
We learn that through this earth life... Even Christ learned this way... Hebrews 5:8.
If people find themselves on a horrible path... Then that is their choice to do so. But they are only on that path because they choose to be there, thinking their way was the better way.

The only other option is for God to force people to do His Will... Would you really rather have that?

Not everyone finds themselves on a horrible path simply by choices they made. Life happens. Many times we are chastised for our good to learn obedience. But sometimes we enter into a testing period to see if we will serve the Lord even in pain. Job is a good example of this. People who drive down the road and get into car accidents that cause the death of children is not a result of the child's poor choices. You cannot put God in a box like that. He never promised us a rose garden. But he promised to be with us through the field of weeds.

 

[donfish06]

You are reading into scripture. There is no evidence that Adam did so while thinking he would be separated from God. It is far more likely that his lust to please Eve blinded him from even thinking of the consequences. Satan blinds the eyes of the disobedient.

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.​

Adam was not blinded, not deceived. He went in eyes wide open

 

[TKICBS]

I would love to answer these questions as I find it refreshing to find someone who actually has thought seriously on these matters... Remind me if I forget to...
However because work is now consuming me, I will have to get back... I only ask that you maintain an open and learning mind.

All things work together for the good of those who are called. God's will is not something you can declare without full knowledge of circumstances, which no-one but God has. Peter found that out the hard way. He wanted to stop Jesus from being crucified. Is death God's will? Yes, for Jesus. Is it God's will that any perish, no. Is it God's will that any be sick, no. But there is a curse on this world and Satan is the god of this age so sickness and death and damnation exist in God's will. Not because He desires it but because we are a disobedient, unloving lot that want our own way. We want God to be the God we want. That is why so many choose some of the many idols and religions in the world, even after receiving Christ.

 

[embrace innocence]

Adam sinned, which loosely translated in Hebrew (from what i understand) means missed or erred. Simply.. he disobeyed and did not follow God's instruction. The Genesis account is not specific as to how information was relayed from Adam to Eve, or if, in the occasion of God speaking to "Adam", in that instance, could have been inclusive of both Adam AND Eve. God is omniscient, knowing what will and will not happen. He knew Adam would disobey, and chose to allow it. I will presume that if God wanted to ensure Adam wouldn't disobey, he could have not left Adam alone, or set a guard over the tree to keep Adam and eve away. But this would have ultimately set God as the eternal babysitter, not allowing Adam to make mistakes or learn from them. God would be the first helicopter parent. "Thanks, but NO THANKS"

While the fall was all part of God's eternal plan, we must remember that he is God and exercises a perspective that we cannot comprehend or effectively critique. In the grand scheme, we find that while God clearly had a hand in the fall of man, for which many lay blame upon Him, He also took full responsibility for COMPLETELY FIXING the situation through the death of Christ.

As for references to Lot, Abraham, and who may or may not be a prophet, or how this may alter the perspective on the story of Adam and Eve, I'm not familiar with any other reference tomes enough to find convincing or reliable information which could indicate anything other than exactly what the Genesis account describes.. Adam disobeyed God, which God states Himself rather clearly in GEN 3:11.

 

[donfish06]

Adam sinned, which loosely translated in Hebrew (from what i understand) means missed or erred. Simply.. he disobeyed and did not follow God's instruction. The Genesis account is not specific as to how information was relayed from Adam to Eve, or if, in the occasion of God speaking to "Adam", in that instance, could have been inclusive of both Adam AND Eve. God is omniscient, knowing what will and will not happen. He knew Adam would disobey, and chose to allow it. I will presume that if God wanted to ensure Adam wouldn't disobey, he could have not left Adam alone, or set a guard over the tree to keep Adam and eve away. But this would have ultimately set God as the eternal babysitter, not allowing Adam to make mistakes or learn from them. God would be the first helicopter parent. "Thanks, but NO THANKS"

While the fall was all part of God's eternal plan, we must remember that he is God and exercises a perspective that we cannot comprehend or effectively critique. In the grand scheme, we find that while God clearly had a hand in the fall of man, for which many lay blame upon Him, He also took full responsibility for COMPLETELY FIXING the situation through the death of Christ.

As for references to Lot, Abraham, and who may or may not be a prophet, or how this may alter the perspective on the story of Adam and Eve, I'm not familiar with any other reference tomes enough to find convincing or reliable information which could indicate anything other than exactly what the Genesis account describes.. Adam disobeyed God, which God states Himself rather clearly in GEN 3:11.

I believe also that he sinned, otherwise he would not have been punished. What I do not believe, is that he was tricked, deceived, or blinded into doing so. He willingly took on Eve's sin in order to save her, Just as Jesus took on our sins to save us (His bride)

 

[LoAmmi]

He also took full responsibility for COMPLETELY FIXING the situation through the death of Christ.

Why was this necessary? I've never understood the Christian position on this as it seems to put Him in a box that He can't break out of without a human sacrifice. And it's something completely opposed to His previous stance that human sacrifice is forbidden.

 

[donfish06]

Why was this necessary? I've never understood the Christian position on this as it seems to put Him in a box that He can't break out of without a human sacrifice. And it's something completely opposed to His previous stance that human sacrifice is forbidden.

You are looking at it wrong. It wasn't human sacrifice. First off, He was God. Secondly, the entire Old Testament is a shadow of Jesus Christ. All through out, an innocent lamb was required to atone for sins. It could only atone, not wipe clean. It was foreshadowing God providing a Lamb Himself ... perfect, without sin, to not only atone for our sins, but to provide the ability to be freed from them! Under the Old Covenant, one could sacrifice a lamb for his sins, and still having the desire to sin in his heart, go the next day and repeat it. Jesus' death freed us from all sin, enabling God to impart us with his Spirit so that he could take the desire to sin away completely! The problem is that Christianity today is so watered down with people who think that just believing that a man died 2000 years ago for us makes you borned again. Being born again is when God's life comes into you and changes you from the inside out, into his likeness, thus restoring to the Eden like condition (God created us in his own image, but we fell from that) I would love to show you how Jesus' life is written all through out the Pentateuch and the Prophets if you are interested

 

[LoAmmi]

You are looking at it wrong. It wasn't human sacrifice. First off, He was God. Secondly, the entire Old Testament is a shadow of Jesus Christ. All through out, an innocent lamb was required to atone for sins. It could only atone, not wipe clean. It was foreshadowing God providing a Lamb Himself ... perfect, without sin, to not only atone for our sins, but to provide the ability to be freed from them! Under the Old Covenant, one could sacrifice a lamb for his sins, and still having the desire to sin in his heart, go the next day and repeat it. Jesus' death freed us from all sin, enabling God to impart us with his Spirit so that he could take the desire to sin away completely! The problem is that Christianity today is so watered down with people who think that just believing that a man died 2000 years ago for us makes you borned again. Being born again is when God's life comes into you and changes you from the inside out, into his likeness, thus restoring to the Eden like condition (God created us in his own image, but we fell from that) I would love to show you how Jesus' life is written all through out the Pentateuch and the Prophets if you are interested

I'm sorry, but I always laugh at any suggest that Christians don't sin or don't have the desire to sin. Where has this ever been true? Nowhere. Even very, very good Christians will make mistakes and I refuse, absolutely refuse, to believe anybody who tells me they don't sin. Guess what? You're pride might just be a sin if you do.

A sacrifice, contrary to some Christian theology, was not some magic charm where you could go sacrifice a goat or lamb and it was all good. In fact, when one reads Leviticus one might be surprised to note a lack of which sacrifice I'm supposed to bring if I, knowing it is a sin, light a candle on Shabbat. You can read it over and over again and you won't find it. Repentance, like the story of David when he sent the man to die so he could take his wife, was the key to that, not blood on an altar. It's in the text in black and white.

I've seen people try to do the whole Jesus is in the Tanach thing. They all fail miserably with me as I point out the context of the text and how it doesn't fit their view. They take a sentence here, a sentence there, and claim victory.