Defining the "Great" Tribulation

[Mr.Waffles]

I have seen certain perspectives where the "Great" Tribulation is viewed as an extension, or the "worse half" of the tribulation period. Whereas others say that it is simply to provide an additional detail on the severity of end time events in general, and does not necessarily distinguish between periods within the tribulation. Just to see the kinds of opinions on here, and if we were to go with the former...what exactly would be considered the Great Tribulation? What distinguishes it?

 

[Interplanner]

Turtles! How did they get in here?

What can I say? My first question is 'are we speaking historically here?' The 'unequalled turmoil' was said to be located in Judea in that generation. Jesus stays with that setting until Mt 24:29 when he shifts to the global and end-of-the-world scene.

 

[josephearl]

The abomination of desolation occurs at the mid point of Daniels 70th week. It is only after this event that the term 'great' is used in conjunction with tribulation. Thus those who are sticklers for accuracy in the use of words find that to imply the whole of the final 7 years, Daniels 70th week, as being 'The Great Tribulation" is unsound and misleading.

 

[CityOfGod]

We are already in the Great Tribulation and have been since the time of Christ.

However, the tribulation will grow worse up unto the time of the end.

 

[Mr.Waffles]

Turtles! How did they get in here?

What can I say? My first question is 'are we speaking historically here?' The 'unequalled turmoil' was said to be located in Judea in that generation. Jesus stays with that setting until Mt 24:29 when he shifts to the global and end-of-the-world scene.

Yes, historically speaking. It seems pretty clear that the "unequalled turmoil" Jesus spoke of is yet to be fulfilled. It's just a matter of defining what is meant by the "great" tribulation, at least from a historic point of view based on what is available in the Bible. It would seem that the abomination of desolation plays a central role.

 

[Mr.Waffles]

The abomination of desolation occurs at the mid point of Daniels 70th week. It is only after this event that the term 'great' is used in conjunction with tribulation. Thus those who are sticklers for accuracy in the use of words find that to imply the whole of the final 7 years, Daniels 70th week, as being 'The Great Tribulation" is unsound and misleading.

The tricky part is how to tie this in with the Book of Revelations. Where exactly does the Great Tribulation fit in? Perhaps it is the 3 woes? Or does it include previous Trumpets, maybe Seals?

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Douggg]

The tricky part is how to tie this in with the Book of Revelations. Where exactly does the Great Tribulation fit in? Perhaps it is the 3 woes? Or does it include previous Trumpets, maybe Seals?

Hi Mr. Waffleiron, , not only Revelation, but also Daniel 12.

What the AOD will be is the image of slain/come back to life Antichrist, in Revelation 13.

Take 1335 days in Daniel 12 and count back from the end of the 7 years. That means the AOD will be setup to be worshiped on day 1185. Which is 75 days before the exact midpoint when the two witnesses will be killed.

During that 75 days the Jews will be fleeing to the mountains as the two witnesses create distraction to the Antichrist-beast who will want to keep the Jews within his control. The plagues called upon by the two witnesses during that period could be the first four trumpet judgments. Not an absolute given though.

Satan will be cast down just past the mid-point, and enters the image of the Antichrist-beast, and makes it appear to come alive and demand to be worshiped. During that time that follows will be the Great Tribulation, because woe to the inhabitants of the earth for the devil has been cast down having great wrath, Revelation 12:12.

Doug

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Interplanner]

Waffle, I'm not sure you grasped what I meant by historic. If you were listening to jesus that day he spoke Mt 24, about that generation, you're first thought about the country being surrounded (Lk 19, 21) and that generation, and its collapse would be about the awful events of the 7th decade. In his time, there were already rumors of independence and revolution and reprisals. In fact, in the scene of 'cleansing the temple,' the psalm quoted is adapted to read 'a den of terrorists/insurgents.'

Next, we want to square away the AofD, abomination that desolates. An abomination is an extreme sin, and this is a adjectival phrase, so this sin desolates the country. We already know from Mt 23 that the place was declare desolate for the reasons given, not just in 23, but in 21 where it was declared a vineyard that did not produce the fruit. This is why I have a hard time understanding how the Romans or someone else does the AofD. What Jesus was upset about was that the rebellious Jews would be taking over the temple, murdering in it, killing from it, etc., and one of them would claim to have divine authority for that in the bizarre years of 66-70. That is all the AofD and so forth is about. That is the historical sense.

There is a fully functional school of research that says that the visions of Rev were also about this catastrophic period. Ebedmelech here at CF is well read on them. And 1disciple. Rev. Bray, Dr. Gentry, Jon Zens and Doug Van Meter are published authors on this. They don't preclude the 2nd coming (they don't say it is has happened--that is 'full preterism') but they do show that much of this material is about those times, for the people stuck in those times.

So the historic sense would see them both (both Mt 24 & //s and Rev) as being about those times and circulated soon enough to help those people who had to go through it.

To get up to speed by video, search for the BBC's 'Siege of Jerusalem' which runs about 1 hour. The nasty figure of John of Gischala is featured at the end, but he was only one of 3, and what's worse--the three fought each other, making victory impossible, humanly speaking, but they envisioned dynamic supernatural messianic help coming to overthrow Rome anyway, in their delusions.

 

[Interplanner]

It only "seems pretty clear" that the unequalled tribulation is unfulfilled if you don't know what the 1st century was like, coalescing in the awful 7th decade when Christians were burnt to light streets in Rome and when Israel tried to fight its way to independence in complete disregard for the mission God sent Paul to explain to them.

 

[Mr.Waffles]

It only "seems pretty clear" that the unequalled tribulation is unfulfilled if you don't know what the 1st century was like, coalescing in the awful 7th decade when Christians were burnt to light streets in Rome and when Israel tried to fight its way to independence in complete disregard for the mission God sent Paul to explain to them.

Oh I see what you mean. Thing is I am inclined to strongly believe otherwise, that these events really are unfulfilled, a) because this period is described as a time of turmoil unlike the world would have ever seen, and will ever see, to the point where NOT having it cut it short would mean the annihilation of all flesh...and b) because it is inextricably linked to the second coming of Christ.

If I understood correctly, you view this as having taken place in the 7th century?

 

[Interplanner]

7th decade = the 60s. A small revolt in 62. A major revolt about seized temple funds in 66. A major invasion of two legions. Rome nearly collapsed in civil war in 68. The invasion of Judea and surrounding of Jerusalem continued in 69. Most zealots and Judaizers 'fell back' to Jerusalem since the legions 'swept' the countryside on their way there. The temple was torched in August 70 even though General Titus did not order it, the same week as in 444 BC. Some 900 zealots escaped to Masada and survived another 2 years, and committed mass suicide the night before being overtaken.

The Greek term 'ges' often means just the land of Israel in the NT, not the entire earth. It was the greatest turmoil in Judea, no question. 2 million died. Maternal cannibalism. Internal fighting and mad messianic delusions all at once. The Judaizers were very harsh, which is why there is a wish expressed by Jesus that they not have to move around on the Sabbath because of 'Sabbath police' which would remind you of Talibani.

Yes, it was originally thought that the end of the world would happen 'immediately after' this event. 24:29. But there was always the allowance that the Father alone would decide that. 2 Pet 3 confirms this. The scoffers say it should have happened by now, and he explains why not on the same basis as Mt 24, in his own words.

Groups as far away as Thessalonica thought in the mid 40s that the day of the Lord had already come; that is how short a time frame all of these people were living on.

 

[Mr.Waffles]

Hi Mr. Waffleiron, , not only Revelation, but also Daniel 12.

What the AOD will be is the image of slain/come back to life Antichrist, in Revelation 13.

Take 1335 days in Daniel 12 and count back from the end of the 7 years. That means the AOD will be setup to be worshiped on day 1185. Which is 75 days before the exact midpoint when the two witnesses will be killed.

During that 75 days the Jews will be fleeing to the mountains as the two witnesses create distraction to the Antichrist-beast who will want to keep the Jews within his control. The plagues called upon by the two witnesses during that period could be the first four trumpet judgments. Not an absolute given though.

Satan will be cast down just past the mid-point, and enters the image of the Antichrist-beast, and makes it appear to come alive and demand to be worshiped. During that time that follows will be the Great Tribulation, because woe to the inhabitants of the earth for the devil has been cast down having great wrath, Revelation 12:12.

Doug

Thanks for the input Doug. To expand on the significance of the AoD, it would seem (at least to me) that several passages speak of this same event:

Paul mentions Christ will not be returning before the Man of Sin is revealed. (2 Thess. 2:3)

Jesus tells His followers (and by extension the Church) that we will be seeing the "Abomination of Desolation" standing in the holy place, which will set into motion the Great Tribulation. (Matthew 24:15)

The point is to address the idea of a painless pre-tribulation rapture.

Especially when considering Luke 21 verses 28 & 36, where Christ confirms that not only will we be around to see these things begin to unfold, but He prays we would have strength to remain steadfast and faithful after been through them.

Does not Matthew 24:22 mean to say just that? Why would those times be cut short for the sake of the elect if not for the simple reason that the elect are to be present?

 

[Interplanner]

I think it was painful Waffles, it's just not future.

Be careful you don't conclude that a rapture is between the lines of Mt 24 & //s. "Taken" does not mean raptured but destroyed, for one thing. For another, the instructions are to people listening right then about simply fleeing, departing, leaving the city under their own power. We don't, as christians, have a 'rapture' button we can press and disappear! LOL. As historic fact goes, during the delay in the siege (the supply line was attacked and the empire nearly split into 3) many Christians left Jerusalem and went to Pella where they were safe.

btw, besides the final years of the "Jewish War" (the title from Josephus, a warrior priest who defected to Rome to try to save his country when he saw that there was no chance of victory) working out to about 3.5 years, some scholars think the 1st 3.5 end with the Gospel event ('cut off but not for himself' 'to atone for sin' 'to bring in everlasting righteousness') and then resume in the conflict. Dan 9:26 etc does describe pretty much what happened.

An abomination is an extreme sin by a responsible party; in Doug's scheme what is the act and why are they responsible? why would a third party or an invader be responsible for God deciding to ruin the temple? Dan.9's prayer was all about Israel's failures and sins. The vision had two answers: 1, Messiah would atone for sins; 2, the city and temple would be decimated by an invader and/or an imposter messiah, an anti-messiah, in an event that would overwhelm like flooding.

 

[Douggg]

An abomination is an extreme sin by a responsible party; in Doug's scheme what is the act and why are they responsible? why would a third party or an invader be responsible for God deciding to ruin the temple?

Thanks Inter for taking time to read my post.

The act of the abomination of desolation has been prefigured in history by Antiochus IV, in Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

So we got that all lined out from our history books what the abomination of desolation will be, and that the end times Antichrist will have some help.

Antiochus set a image of Zeus in the temple, which Antiochus considered himself to the personification of Zeus in the flesh. God incarnate. Which is conceptually what the Antichrist and the image of him will do as the abomination of desolation.

So who are the arms for the end times Antichrist and those who are likewise responsible - you questioned.

In Daniel 8, those polluting of the sanctuary to make it desolate, are called the transgressors. The transgressors in Daniel 8:23 have a kingdom. The little horn king of fierce countenance stands up out that kingdom - in the latter time of it.

In Daniel 7, the little horn emerges from a kingdom of ten kings, which in the text is identified as the fourth kingdom. That kingdom is the end times Roman Empire. The EU fits the bill, having developed from the EEC, but it is not quiet yet in the latter time of its development - because it does not have the ten king ruling body. Once it gets to the ten king ruling body - then the little horn 7th king of the Julio-Claudian family will emerge.

The transgressors who will support the Antichrist his entire career, including desecration of the temple, will be those ten European leaders. They are going to provide him with the military might to carry out his agenda.

The Antichrist's profile: He will have a stern facial appearance. He will be a Jew. He will be self assured confident, resolute, and have a huge ego.


Doug

 

[Interplanner]

Doug, the problem with #17 is Mt 24 & //s. You guys skip-over and come back when there is already a coherent message established. we know from Mt 23 who desolated, and what it amounts to. Obviously it changes meaning from Dan., but Dan is mentioned or quoted 3x in Mt 24 so we should go with Christ's meaning. Even further back (Mt 21), we know that the vineyard staff is being scrapped because it is not producing his fruit. We're told in the next parable that refusing to attend the wedding made the Inviter angry and he came and burnt the city, which is so obvious by being way beyond what happens at most weddings!

Not many passages from Daniel are used by the NT; I have to go with the ordinary meaning supplied by Christ.

 

[shturt678]

Matt.24:21, "....great tribulation..." occurred 70 A.D. and Rev.7:14, "...the tribulation, the great one,..." is occurring due to all the tribulations mentioned in all the passages that speak of tribulation are combined, and thus with reference to the church this tribulation of all ages is rightly called "great." "Great" gathers up all of it. In Acts 14:22: "Through many tribulations we must enter into the Kingdom of God," the word "many" spreads out the great multitude of all tribulations. My end point, the tribulations of the last period, including this moment, are included of course. We been over this rejected ground before; however I thought it sounded good enough to at least get a lol out of you folks. Enjoying the thread and thank you from an ol' old man.

 

[vinsight4u]

/